Is a college education a "birth right"....

[SnowWhite]

My husband does not have a college degree, but he is a skilled lineman. I don't think that lack of college education equals inability to compete in a global market.

 

ITA, and those three little letters are inadequate to describe just exactly how much I do agree.

 

I believe the value of sitting in college classrooms is highly overrated. There are many self-educated successful people doing a wonderful job competing in a global market. There are many badly educated college graduates who cannot compete in a global market.

[SnowWhite]

No. BUT I think the right to a DECENT education that prepares a student to SUCCEED in college is a birthright - and most American kids are not getting it!!!!

 

Agreed! :iagree:

[Tess in the Burbs]

I don't have time to read through all the political fighting here ;-)

 

I grew up in a family where you went to college. It wasn't an option not to. Of course when the parents divorced and the college funds disappeared the 'we pay for it' went away, but we were expected to attend college. And my parents helped when they could.

 

I think today many careers can be successful without a college degree or with an alternative degree(community college/trade school). I still will encourage my child to go to college. Studies prove degreed workers make more. On average(I know there are exceptions...dh works with them).

 

But should it be a right? No. Not all families can afford it.

 

Should our government find a way to provide college education to more? yes! I like the idea of gov't service in exchange for paid college. Obviously the more educated our country is the better we will do generations later in being a successful nation, but funding people's educations when people go hungry in this country...I can't see supporting.

 

But I saw too many kids in my own college experience(went to 3 different schools) that went b/c the parents paid for it. the kids didn't want to be there. They had no drive and they wasted professors time, took up seats in colleges others were waitlisted for, and did nothing to contribute to the community of the college. why encourage everyone to attend if they don't want to?

 

I have no answers how to get everyone through who wants to go. I have no gov't solutions either. I will encourage my own children to get a degree even if they want to stay home and be a wife/mom or husband/father. ;-) I am glad I have my degree. And forever from now if I decide to work again it will be a help to me in gaining a job. It shows I had dedication and drive to complete something longterm.

[Michelle in MO]

Imagine if your mother wasn't able or willing to take you to school! Imagine if you didn't *have* a father who worked hard and you had to work to put yourself through school AND help support your family!

 

You worked very, very hard to get what you wanted and needed. Others want the same, but don't even know where to start. Or worse, they don't even know they are "supposed" to want more. Family attitudes towards education and success in life go a long way towards either helping a child to succeed or keeping them from even trying.

 

I would love to see more funding, more scholarships available to help these kinds of people. My parents divorced while I was in high school. Due to legal wranglings between my parents, somehow the money for my college education went to my mother, who had a difficult time managing on her own. I was left with paying my own way through college. I realize wholeheartedly that this happened back in the '80's, when college educations were much more affordable than today. Perhaps it couldn't be done today, but back then, I was able to pay my way through college. I didn't have a family to support, though. I'm not sure if I could have managed it if I'd had a family back then, both time-wise and the finances. I did not have very much money---not at all. I worked quite a bit during the school year and full-time during the summers to help pay for everything. Those were difficult years.

 

I feel badly for people who face this double-whammy---college and family. I knew a girl from high school who got pregnant while in high school. I met her one day at the university, and she was pursuing her degree in medicine. Again---think back to the '80's. I was surprised she had set her sights that high---but apparently she was eventually successful! I think she managed with grants and loans. I'm sure it wasn't a picnic. And, I would agree that it's not worthwhile to go to college, get a degree, get out and not be able to find a decent job and repay all those student loans.

 

I think that family attitudes make a huge difference. My dad (and mom) desperately wanted me to go to college. I did, too! Like Snow White says, there probably are a lot of kids in college whose parents pay for everything, who don't really want to be there or work hard. Neither one of my parents finished college, but believed firmly in the value of further education---either college, vocational school, or whatever.

 

I feel great regret when I meet certain families who have no vision for their kids. They're content if their kids receive their GED's and then continue on in the same minimal pay jobs that they themselves hold. Unfortunately, I've met some in the homeschooling community like this. I'm not suggesting that all of these kids go on to college. I just would hope that their parents would see the benefit of some type of further education.

[Stacy in NJ]

Imagine if your mother wasn't able or willing to take you to school! Imagine if you didn't *have* a father who worked hard and you had to work to put yourself through school AND help support your family!

 

You worked very, very hard to get what you wanted and needed. Others want the same, but don't even know where to start. Or worse, they don't even know they are "supposed" to want more. Family attitudes towards education and success in life go a long way towards either helping a child to succeed or keeping them from even trying.

 

 

I agree with you here. But is it the place of the government to step in and attempt to equalize the negative effects of family/social situtation (by offering free college education)? I'm just saying that there are negative consequences to government involving itself in these social dynamics, negative for both the individual and the institution (universities). I would go as far as to say that the negatives of state involvement are much greater and more damaging then the situation it's trying to improve.

[Renee in NC]

I agree with you here. But is it the place of the government to step in and attempt to equalize the negative effects of family/social situtation (by offering free college education)? I'm just saying that there are negative consequences to government involving itself in these social dynamics, negative for both the individual and the institution (universities). I would go as far as to say that the negatives of state involvement are much greater and more damaging then the situation it's trying to improve.

 

I don't know what the answer is. I think in these cases it takes much more than simply paying for it for kids from certain backgrounds. It takes *people* to mentor, tutor, and to help change attitudes. I agree that simply making it another "entitlement" program is not the way to go, but there has to be *something* that we (as people) can do to help break the cycle. Money is a small part of it.

[LG Gone Wild]

A later poster pointed out that many of technical jobs are being "outsourced" to India, that's exactly my point.

 

there are many reasons for that. A big reason is that the technical jobs are being outsourced because it's cheaper to hire an Indian than an American. That's a matter of unionization and employment laws and political machinations. The second, which we all complain about, is the quality of education current Americans get. The mindset about college being a birthrate is not helpful to the goal of having a competent workforce. The Kuwaitis (sp?) had that. The gov. pays for everyone's (women, too, I think) college education and a big consequence was uninspired college folk. They may have changed that policy but I am not sure.

[Jenny in Atl]

Without freedom, a free education does us little good. Look at Cuba. I don't believe we humans have much beyond... "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness" as birth rights.

 

However, if we wish to have a strong country, a better world, I would think the free-market needs to take a greater interest in making teaching as popular an occupation as being an actress or basketball player. Until the masses see learning as exciting as American Idol, we are doomed.

[Caroline]

Without freedom, a free education does us little good. Look at Cuba. I don't believe we humans have much beyond... "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness" as birth rights.

 

However, if we wish to have a strong country, a better world, I would think the free-market needs to take a greater interest in making teaching as popular an occupation as being an actress or basketball player. Until the masses see learning as exciting as American Idol, we are doomed.

 

I could not have said it better myself.

[Tammyla]

:iagree:

It's really not anyone's "job" to "turn them out." Somtimes it seems the individual is diminishing and it's all about the common good these days.

 

I'm content with birth right being: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Tammyla]

:iagree:

Yes, yes, yes.

Without freedom, a free education does us little good. Look at Cuba. I don't believe we humans have much beyond... "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness" as birth rights.

 

However, if we wish to have a strong country, a better world, I would think the free-market needs to take a greater interest in making teaching as popular an occupation as being an actress or basketball player. Until the masses see learning as exciting as American Idol, we are doomed.

[dragons in the flower bed]

I think every child in America has the right to a public education- K-12. I agree with that. But is college education different?

 

 

No, I don't have a problem with higher education being reserved for those who are smart and strong enough to work their way into such a program, so long as some equalizing is done for folks who are smart and strong enough but whose resources are being drained by survival because of circumstances beyond their control.

 

But yes, I agree that every kid should be granted the privilege of the level of education that our colleges are currently turning out.

 

This is why: What is currently a college education should be a K-12 education.

[Michelle in MO]

My husband does not have a college degree, but he is a skilled lineman. I don't think that lack of college education equals inability to compete in a global market.

 

for all he does as a lineman. I know this is off the topic (I apologize, everyone!) but in December of 2006 we had a terrible ice storm here in Missouri. We were without electricity for five days and it was a huge pain! When I saw the linemen coming down our road, I could have kissed them (but didn't)! I know they have a very difficult and sometimes dangerous job. I appreciate all that they do.

 

:hurray: :hurray:

[Tammyla]

:iagree: We were cheering up here too. :iagree:

 

 

for all he does as a lineman. I know this is off the topic (I apologize, everyone!) but in December of 2006 we had a terrible ice storm here in Missouri. We were without electricity for five days and it was a huge pain! When I saw the linemen coming down our road, I could have kissed them (but didn't)! I know they have a very difficult and sometimes dangerous job. I appreciate all that they do.

 

:hurray: :hurray:

[Margaret in GA]

While college isn't for everyone, it should be an available option. It all begins with a 100% high school graduation rate. And when you leave that high school you should have mastered the 3 Rs. At least that much is our birthright. Here in Georgia, we already offer a full ride to college at a state university through our state's lottery fund. You must maintain a GPA of 3.0 to be eligible. Unfortunately, many kids don't qualify (heck, many schools here have a 50% graduation rate) and many of the ones that do will lose that scholarship after the first year. My point is that it all begins in K-12. Our birthright to a great education starts right there. Unfortunately, for many it also ends right there.

 

margaret

[Penny from Tenny]

Birthright? No. Darned good idea? Yes.

 

 

:iagree: I get very frustrated when I hear liberal politicians talking

 

about "rights"? What about responsibility?

 

 

I don't get it...

[Rich with Kids]

My husband does not have a college degree, but he is a skilled lineman. I don't think that lack of college education equals inability to compete in a global market.

 

:iagree:. I know plenty of very successful people w/o a formal college degree. Their education blows most college graduates out of the water. We can learn to educate ourselves beyond a college degree. We are homeschoolers! :D

 

ETA: I will support my dc in whatever avenue they choose to complete their education. College included.

[tmkclscroggins]

Note: I haven't read Obama's speech!

 

I think education is a priviledge, not a right. Yes, the US is getting kicked in the rear end in science and math but will GIVING a college eduation to every child in the US stop this? I think not! What would this do to our institutes of higher learning? Already they have to offer remedial classes since a good portion of incoming freshmen can't pass basic math or English classes. What would happen if you give everyone a free pass? I think it would turn into a fiasco! I also think that the expense of this would be astronomical! Where would that money come from? TAXES, TAXES, and more TAXES!

I think kids today need to realize that higher education needs to be earned and that hard work and dedication to learning have their own rewards. I don't think you can fully appreciate that unless you've had to work you tail off to get it. The entitlement mentality of the younger generation is incredible. Did our grandparent and parents expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter? No! It took my dad 10 years to get through college because he had to work his way through. Both my husband and myself worked our way through college also. I think that if you give away college educations, institutes of high learning will fall the way the public school system has. There has to be another way to beef up math and science. Also...there are people who aren't college material - either through choice ( wanting to go ahead and enter the work force ) or who just don't have the brain power to go further. I know several people who struggled through high school. Going on into college would be futile! Also...there are many successful people who did not go to college. Again, they worked hard, failed many time, but still persevered and succeeded.

 

I don't know the answer but I do know that the US has got to get out of the "I have the right to this and I have the right to that" mentality. The only right we have as human beings are God given. Everything else has to be earned.

 

Sorry.....just my opinion!

Melissa

[brehon]

No, I don't think a college/university education is a birth right or one of our inalieable rights. I do think everyone has the right to pursue a degree (or several:D); but, the state (and here I mean either a state gov't or the federal gov't) should not be obligated to pay for the education.

 

I also have a different view of higher education. I don't tend to use the terms "college" and "university" interchangeably. I believe they should offer different types of education. (I'm also realist enough to know that I'm in a minority here.) I think politicians and the gov't itself does a real disservice to many kids by holding out a university degree as the only way to a "better life". There should be different paths of education or training open to students: traditional 4-year university, community college, vocational training, apprenticeships. Note that I don't think kids should be tracked into a particular path (a la Germany). I just think our/their options should expand. I also don't think one style of education is inherently better than another. They're just different and should appeal to different people with different interests.

 

I also don't think the gov't should pay for that education (in the form of higher taxes to lower tuition). Others probably know better than I; but, in Britain over the past several years, there has been a major debate about gov't provision of "free" university education for (targeted) 50% high school students (6th formers? is that what they're called?) vs top up fees vs the actual cost of an education. I don't think any gov't can adequately fund the true cost of higher education and I don't think our gov't should.

 

I guess this was a long winded way of saying everyone should have the opportunity to try for whatever type of education/training best suits his/her own interests, talents, and abilities.

[cin]

I think Obama should funnel his time, energy and funds towards reforming "Head Start" and "No Child Left Behind." THEN, we would have educated high school graduates who are prepared for life AND college, should they choose to attend.

 

College education, a birthright? No. Attainable? Yep.

 

I also think that apprentiships ( I KNOW I spelled that wrong!), trade schools, and associate degree programs should be available to prepare everyone for a job. College isn't the only answer. We NEED people to be able to fix our cars, build houses, and fix our toilets. THOSE types of jobs do not require an advanced degree, but an appreticeship or a technical degree would be great.

 

Just My Opinion

[summer]

I think every child who works hard should be able to have that education. But, I do not think that slackers or behavior problems should be allowed in the high schools let alone colleges. I am a bit concerned that Barrack Hussein Obama thinks that we should turn public colleges in to the circuses that public high schools have become.

[Kim in Appalachia]

That's not quite true. There are applications turned away at med schools, but not because the applicants aren't qualified, or because they can't pay for it, but because there are not enough slots. The number of med slots has not significantly increased in a few decades (NPR had a report on this not too long ago). It is actually planned that a certain percentage of doc will come from foreign countries, not because we don't have enough, but because it is too expensive to run the programs. (Most of our med programs, especially residencies, are primarily funded by Medicaid, and some Medicare.)

 

As far as nursing, again there are plenty of people smart enough to get into the programs, but the reason we have a nursing "shortage" is because they are poorly paid and overworked. The constant call for more nurses is so that the pay for them doesn't have to increase.

 

I've been around lots of Med and nursing students, and I have seen and heard all the discussions in regards to shortages and such. You learn a lot when you actually get to see how the programs work.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[brehon]

I just want to comment on Germany. Kids are not tracked and on a path. That system has pretty much gone away. They do have different types of high school degrees. Even that is starting to go away.

 

I do agree that there should be more options than college/university. There is some of that, but I don't think enough.

 

Even with the NCLB stuff. It is as if "they" think we can somehow make everyone exactly the same and on the same level. I think by doing that we leave people out. We do a disservice to those struggling, and we disregard gifted/accelerated students.

 

 

Hmmm...my information must be out of date then, sorry about that.:)

 

I agree with your assessment of NCLB. I think many people, especially various politicians, misunderstand the term "equal opportunity." Opportunity is not a guarantee of achievement.

[kpupg]

Birthright? No. Darned good idea? Yes.

 

:iagree:

[Rebecca in GA]

Oooh, so much good discussion here!

 

Salvaging good kids from bad situations would help, especially if everyone got involved. My husband works for an international wire and cable manufacturer that last year started a program for "at-risk" (sorry, I don't know what the current pc term would be) students as a direct result of the awful statistics about high school dropouts in our area.

 

As long as they stay in school and follow a few rules for enrollment in the program, these kids get a paying job making real products for a real company. Once they graduate from high school and the program, they get first shot at starting-level full-time openings at the company.

 

These guys may never get to college, but they certainly get a chance at some kind of productive life. Their stories would break your heart, but it takes more than a sad story to get them and keep them in the program. They have to want it and they have to earn it.

 

I think the same should be true for the college-bound.

[Michelle in MO]

I just want to comment on Germany. Kids are not tracked and on a path. That system has pretty much gone away. They do have different types of high school degrees. Even that is starting to go away.

 

I do agree that there should be more options than college/university. There is some of that, but I don't think enough.

 

Even with the NCLB stuff. It is as if "they" think we can somehow make everyone exactly the same and on the same level. I think by doing that we leave people out. We do a disservice to those struggling, and we disregard gifted/accelerated students.

 

I guess I misspoke. My information is probably pretty dated, coming from German professors who emigrated to the U.S. years ago, some of them probably shortly after World War II, and some later, in the 60's and 70's. From what they told me, at least "back then," education in Germany was much more structured and allowed for little "leeway" for students to get into a university track, once they had taken entrance examinations.

 

My apologies to you and your husband! :)

[Rosie_0801]

I'm not in the US, but we have universities here too, ;) , so it's still a relevent idea to me.

 

If making it a "birth right" means it has to be dumbed down so everyone can get a degree, the whole system becomes incredibly meaningless. It's pretty dumbed down already here. The main reason, I think, is because the government doesn't pay a living wage to students, so they are too busy working to have time to digest their studies. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but it's an important point. (Here at least.)

 

Oops if someone has already said all this, there's too many pages to dig through to check!

:)

Rosie

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Although I heard this in Obama's speech, I'm not asking in political terms. I wonder if it is true. I'm pondering.

 

I think every child in America has the right to a public education- K-12. I agree with that. But is college education different?

 

I'm forming my thoughts.

 

What are yours?

 

Jo

 

If this were to be the case, why would students treat their college years with any more seriousness than they already treat their K-12 years? Or in other words, why should I (as a taxpayer) fund higher education for a bunch of students who treated their high school years with contempt?

And why would we think that flooding the upper educational system with even more government subsidies would enable it to maintain even the remnant of excellence that it has right now?

I would rather that government subsidies of college were drastically reduced (this is a major cause of the outrageous rate of inflation in college costs), high schools were made much harder and the minimum wage was dropped (which would give the high school drop out the ability to get a job - rather than sell drugs or strip the copper out of the lights on the highway - until they either earned experience enough to rate a higher paying job or decided that they did in fact need more education and were willing to stick it out this time).

And FWIW, the elimination of the minimum wage idea came to me directly from a former VP of the AFT, Myron Liebermann. He saw the minimum wage and the mandatory school attendance linked together as a jobs protection scheme.

[Marsha]

Birthright? No

 

The great thing about America is you do have the chance to do what you want. You have a choice.

 

A birthright implies that everyone is entitled to the same thing.

You need to earn things, even college.

[Catherine]

in the world-our superior higher education system. It's why we have such a disproportionate number of Nobel laureates and successful research. Affording access to it for as many students as possible should be a national priority, IMO. Look at the primary education in Japan, Korea, Russia-all of them are far superior to the US, but still their populations are severely hampered by the lack of good, readily available higher education.

 

Look at the effect of the GI bill after WW 2. Why shouldn't more of the people benefit from college education?

[Rosie_0801]

And doesn't a well educated population benefit everyone?

 

 

Er. No.

An educated population is harder to control. The politicians have a much easier time of it if the population isn't thinking.

Rosie

[Mamagistra]

Er. No.

An educated population is harder to control. The politicians have a much easier time of it if the population isn't thinking.

Rosie

 

:iagree: I am so sorry to be out of rep for the day because you are spot on, Rosie! :001_smile:

[Mamagistra]

I think every child who works hard should be able to have that education. But, I do not think that slackers or behavior problems should be allowed in the high schools let alone colleges. I am a bit concerned that Barrack Hussein Obama thinks...

 

:confused: ITA...every Tom (Allen Smith), Dick (Jamal Jones), and Harry (Marc Weinstein) should have the opportunity for a full, rich education in our nation. Much the same way that any eligible person (of any name) has the opportunity to seek the presidency.

 

I'm just sayin'. :mellow:

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I am a bit concerned that Barrack Hussein Obama thinks that we should turn public colleges in to the circuses that public high schools have become.

 

 

I wonder what Senator John Sidney McCain III's take on it is. He was certainly afforded a privileged start. Military brat that he was, Wiki says he attended about 20 different schools. Of course, the world was different back in his day -- schools were different. And I imagine his going to Annapolis had very little to do with the fact that his dad and granddad were four-star admirals. (And good on 'em, and taking nothing away from Senator John Sidney McCain III's service. But it probably did not stress him a whole lot to get that initial opportunity to prove himself.) I'll have to read up more on his education vision.

 

An aside -- I once applied for a job at the school where Senator Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. went to elementary/jr.high/high school for seven years in Hawaii. I didn't get the job, but that was a very cool school. And as another aside, the very first time that our ds saw his baby sister was at the annual EHS/Woodberry football game. The Game. (EHS was Senator John Sidney McCain III's high school.) Dd was 2 1/2 weeks old. Very nice grounds, lots of history there.

 

I think I shall use Senator John Sidney McCain III's full name from now on, just for grins. :D And to celebrate our common English and Scot's Irish heritage. 'Cause lord knows, we descendants of these fine folks are all pure of heart, upright, and would never hurt a fly. Unlike -- oh, wait. Senator Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. was descended, says Wiki, from pre-revolution British settlers and some Irish immigrant guy back in the mid-1800's. And of course that Kenyan guy. And yeah, he probably masterminded his mother's remarriage to that guy from Indonesia. Lord knows what the Indonesians are up to. Could be trouble, I guess. But then, Senator Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. probably plotted all this throughout his youth just to confuse the upright, hardworking American people. Or perhaps Others were behind it. Or maybe somebody, somewhere when he was a little kid said, "Kid, this is America. We're all equal here. ANY kid could grow up and run for President. Maybe even you!" And maybe he believed them.

 

He LOOKS perfectly normal. But with a name like that... can one really KNOW? :001_huh: (Is there a :grrrrrr!: icon I could insert in here?)

 

John Sidney McCain, III is much less ambiguous, yes?

[Mamagistra]

I wonder what Senator John Sidney McCain's take on it is. He was certainly afforded a privileged start. Military brat that he was, Wiki says he attended about 20 different schools. Of course, the world was different back in his day -- schools were different. And I imagine his going to Annapolis had very little to do with the fact that his dad and granddad were four-star admirals. (And good on 'em, and taking nothing away from Senator John Sidney McCain's service. But it probably did not stress him a whole lot to get that initial opportunity to prove himself.) I'll have to read up more on his education vision.

 

An aside -- I once applied for a job at the school where Senator Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. went to elementary/jr.high/high school for seven years in Hawaii. I didn't get the job, but that was a very cool school. And as another aside, the very first time that our ds saw his baby sister was at the annual EHS/Woodberry football game. The Game. (EHS was Senator John Sidney McCain's high school.) Dd was 2 1/2 weeks old. Very nice grounds, lots of history there.

 

I think I shall use Senator John Sidney McCain's full name from now on, just for grins. :D And to celebrate our common English and Scot's Irish heritage. 'Cause lord knows, we descendants of these fine folks are all pure of heart, upright, and would never hurt a fly. Unlike -- oh, wait. Senator Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. was descended, says Wiki, from pre-revolution British settlers and some Irish immigrant guy back in the mid-1800's. And of course that Kenyan guy. And yeah, he probably masterminded his mother's remarriage to that guy from Indonesia. Lord knows what the Indonesians are up to. Could be trouble, I guess. But then, Senator Barack Hussein Obama probably plotted all this throughout his youth just to confuse the upright, hardworking American people. Or perhaps Others were behind it. Or maybe somebody, somewhere when he was a little kid said, "Kid, this is America. We're all equal here. ANY kid could grow up and run for President. Maybe even you!" And maybe he believed them.

 

He LOOKS perfectly normal. But with a name like that... can one really KNOW? :001_huh: (Is there a :grrrrrr!: icon I could insert in here?)

 

John Sidney McCain is much less ambiguous, yes?

 

Er, Pam?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's John Sidney McCain III!

:lol::lol:

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Er, Pam?

That's John Sidney McCain III!

:lol::lol:

 

Shoot. I tried and tried. I really did.

 

:lol:

 

I shall edit. This will be our little secret. SHHHHH!