How did homeschool regulations come to be?

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Why are NY and PA so strict? Why do other states require nothing? Have regulations ever been lowered or only increased?

 

Also wondering if (in general) the regulations even do anything (other than increased paperwork)? Are kids in high states performing better? How would this even be measured? Does it only say that my kid can fill in a bubble better than a kid from a low/no regulation state?

 

Wouldn't it be easier to HS a child using TWTM in Texas (or other low reg states) than here in PA?

 

Other than HSLDA, where can I find a lot of information? It seems that HSLDA is at the top of all google searches.

 

Just curious here. Off to research my own questions.

[2_girls_mommy]

Read over the National Home Education Research Institute's (NHERI) site. Or read some of Dr. Brian Ray's books on the research. There does not seem to be any correlation to higher performance in the high regulation states.

[twoforjoy]

Why are NY and PA so strict? Why do other states require nothing? Have regulations ever been lowered or only increased?

 

Michigan has pretty much no regulation. The reason is that it used to have extremely strict rules, and when they had to change those due to legal challenges, they just decided to pretty much stop regulating. At least that's my understanding of it.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Or, if you really want an earfull (eyefull?), check out John Taylor Gatto's explanations of the development of compulsory schooling (Dumbing Us Down, A Different Kind of Teacher). Thought-provoking stuff.

[Mommyfaithe]

Why are NY and PA so strict? Why do other states require nothing? Have regulations ever been lowered or only increased?

 

Also wondering if (in general) the regulations even do anything (other than increased paperwork)? Are kids in high states performing better? How would this even be measured? Does it only say that my kid can fill in a bubble better than a kid from a low/no regulation state?

 

Wouldn't it be easier to HS a child using TWTM in Texas (or other low reg states) than here in PA?

 

Other than HSLDA, where can I find a lot of information? It seems that HSLDA is at the top of all google searches.

 

Just curious here. Off to research my own questions.

 

Nah....homeschool regs in NY came about because parents were being hauled off to jail for educational neglect/child abuse for homeschooling in a state where the Teachers Union rules and reigns. HSLDA and LEAH, I believe tried to put together a plan that was acceptable to both the teachers union and parents of home schooled kids. I think there were concessions on the part of HSLDA and LEAH that they would have rathered not have to make. It was a bloody fight...and the schools still don't know...after 20 years...what the regs say or mean, and it is left up to each school superintendent to interpret.

 

I am not sure where secular or academics only fit into this picture...homeschooling was very rare here when I started. The hippy unschoolers just went under the radar...no ss#'s, home birth with no birth certificates....mostly rich trust fund brats who could do what they want because daddy was paying for it.....

 

Christian homeschoolers were being advised at that time to pull their kids OUT of the wicked ungodly school systems and homeschool. When they did...those wicked truant officers showed up....and CPS...etc. It wasn't a pretty site.

 

We had to be very careful back in the day. We started homeschooling under very frightening conditions, very,very new regulations and an aggressive, hostile homeschooling environment.

 

I have been very blessed...but not everyone has been. There are lots of war stories of people losing their kids....being hauled off to jail, being hauled into court etc.

 

I don't think regs are necessarily a bad thing, but in NY....we are not considered pRt of the school system, we can not participate in any classes or extra curricular activities including sports or band, we can't even use the track for gym......we can not earn a high school diploma, Even though we are frequired to send in a Individualized Home Instruction Plan every year, a report on what we covered every 9 weeks, and year end evaluations either in the form of testing or a writ ten summation. After 12 years of thT, my kids still had to take a GED to get into CC. They changed that a bit now, Where the Superintendent can grant a Letter of Completion...which really isn't worth the paper it is written on....or a student can take 24 college credits.

Problem being, the cc does NOT like to take dual enrolled students that are home schooled. The PS gets priority...so there are not many class opportunities left.

 

It can get ugly.

 

I know some groups are trying for homeschool LAW. I think that would be wY worse than regulations!!

 

I think they should make a choice and decide...if we are part of the school system, then we should be entitled to the services we pAy for with our taxes....which are exorbitant.....If we are not part of the school system, then let us write our letter of intent...and be done with having to deal with the bureaucratic nonsense, put there the the TU can still wield some sort of control....

 

Just a f ew of my 2 centses....

Faithe

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Thank you. Everything mentioned is on my need to read list!

[Ellie]

Increased thanks to HSLDA.

That's SO not true, for goodness' sake.

 

What is true is that as more people began homeschooling, more school officials became alarmed that they had little control over homeschoolers, and they started pushing legislators to make stricter laws, and it was because of HSLDA and others in those states that the laws are *only* as strict as they are; the originally proposed laws were much worse.

[Ray]

Most people in those states have accepted the idea that public school should have a monopoly on education. And if those states receive money from the Federal Government to help pay educational costs then its citizens prefer that children be ‘left behind’ in large groups to ‘left behind’ as an individual.

[Barbara H]

This is a really good blog about the history of homeschooling. It is academically focused so it is always a light read, but there is a lot of good information there. The author also has a book on the history of homeschooling. http://gaither.wordpress.com/

[Bootsie]

Some has to do with the overall level of regulation of education. In Texas, private schools are not regulated. So, in Texas, private school students do not have to take standardized tests, meet compulsory attendance guidelines, etc. So, homeschoolers are treated as a private school in Texas and face the same amount of regulation.

[Parrothead]

Unfortunately, Ellie, in a few states it is true. HSLDA came in in wrecked havoc in PA and NY. I think the way they stopped helping homeschoolers in AL is pretty short sighted. (Having to belong to a church school. Gee, what do those who homeschool secularly have to do?)

[Mrs Mungo]

Unfortunately, Ellie, in a few states it is true. HSLDA came in in wrecked havoc in PA and NY. I think the way they stopped helping homeschoolers in AL is pretty short sighted. (Having to belong to a church school. Gee, what do those who homeschool secularly have to do?)

 

I disagree that it is short-sighted. It seems to fit with what their ultimate goals have been all along. I *disagree* with it, but it is not short-sighted.

[Ray]

I disagree. Most wealthy NYers don't send their children to public school. They use private, or they use a tutor.

 

Schooling in NY would be entirely different if the union members weren't also (in many cases) the school board members or their cronies.

 

 

Ok, what about a tax credit for all educational expenses; would that be something that all classes could benefit?

[Ray]

Heigh ho, when I read wealthy Nyers, I assumed it was defining a group or class.

[Mommyfaithe]

I disagree. Most wealthy NYers don't send their children to public school. They use private, or they use a tutor.

 

Schooling in NY would be entirely different if the union members weren't also (in many cases) the school board members or their cronies.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Anyone who can possibly afford to send their kids to private school DOES! Many moms I know work it out in trade for lower tuitions....

 

Schooling in NY would be totally different if the Union was broken up and the politicians did not bow down in every way possible to it.

 

Faithe

[kalanamak]

I disagree that it is short-sighted. It seems to fit with what their ultimate goals have been all along. I *disagree* with it, but it is not short-sighted.

 

:iagree: An important distinction. I'm eagerly awaiting the Promised Land when no one feels frightened into joining them.

[Ray]

It is defining a group that has enough cash to pay tuition at a private school or engage a tutor in addition to paying local school taxes. Class? No. Class is more than bank acccount and accumulated wealth.

 

Oh, I see my thoughts were that the individual would make the educational choices and not the State because the fees bolded above would be the tax credit.

How awesome would that be if homeschoolers got to keep that money to use as they saw fit? Glorious! :D

[Mommyfaithe]

Most people in those states have accepted the idea that public school should have a monopoly on education. And if those states receive money from the Federal Government to help pay educational costs then its citizens prefer that children be ‘left behind’ in large groups to ‘left behind’ as an individual.

 

Who is "Most People"?????

 

I certainly don't know any...not even teachers. The teachers in my area have always been helpful and encouraging to me....AND hate how the system treats us.

 

So, who are these most??

 

Faithe

[Mommyfaithe]

It's not totally shocking in NY. NY loves rules and regulations. There are so many rules, laws, and regulations that I think it's safest to sit still in a chair and never leave the house because you are sure to break one of them (oh wait...there is probably a limit to how long one is allowed to sit in a chair).

 

:iagree::iagree: and they are probably taxing the chair....sigh....

[Ray]

Who is "Most People"?????

 

I certainly don't know any...not even teachers. The teachers in my area have always been helpful and encouraging to me....AND hate how the system treats us.

 

So, who are these most??

 

Faithe

 

I was referring to the Democratic process nothing else , but maybe implying they would vote for less restrictive laws if most of them wanted more liberty towards educational decisions.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Ray

[JennyD]

This book came out a few years ago, but I highly recommend:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Children-Controversy-Homeschooling-Princeton/dp/0691114684/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319310914&sr=8-1

[Mrs Mungo]

I was referring to the Democratic process nothing else , but maybe implying they would vote for less restrictive laws if most of them wanted more liberty towards educational decisions.

 

Most people here will tell you that they do *not* want tax credits or other forms of money from federal or state governments. Time has proven that when the government's money is used, then the government (and not necessarily wrongly) believes it should have oversight. We don't want oversight, therefore, we do not want money or tax credits. Government money does not equal greater liberty.

[I talk to the trees]

It's not totally shocking in NY. NY loves rules and regulations. There are so many rules, laws, and regulations that I think it's safest to sit still in a chair and never leave the house because you are sure to break one of them (oh wait...there is probably a limit to how long one is allowed to sit in a chair).

 

:lol: True, true....:lol:

[Ray]

Most people here will tell you that they do *not* want tax credits or other forms of money from federal or state governments. Time has proven that when the government's money is used, then the government (and not necessarily wrongly) believes it should have oversight. We don't want oversight, therefore, we do not want money or tax credits. Government money does not equal greater liberty.

 

Well it's not the governments money until they take it from you, and in my view a tax credit is just to make the current tax system more equitable to the taxpayer that thinks they can make better choices than a central educational planner. But be clear that our government may be able to print paper, real 'money' is created by efforts of it's citizens. Governments only take and redistribute what's in ones wallet.

 

Things like tax credits would reduce government oversight because there is no way a central educational czar could possibly track all the available educational options that the free market would provide...if individuals had that choice.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Ray

[Mrs Mungo]

Well it's not the governments money until they take it from you, and in my view a tax credit is just to make the current tax system more equitable to the taxpayer that thinks they can make better choices than a central educational planner. But be clear that our government may be able to print paper, real 'money' is created by efforts of it's citizens. Governments only take and redistribute what's in ones wallet.

 

I firmly disagree with your worldview. We, as a collective, have decided that public education is important. I don't participate in it, but I still think it should be available. Therefore, I have no problem with some of my tax dollars supporting the schools. People who choose to not to have kids support the school system financially. Not participating is my choice and I firmly believe that I should pay out of my own pocket for my choice. There is no US government outside of the people. You are falling for a false dichotomy of the US government versus its people.

 

Things like tax credits would reduce government oversight because there is no way a central educational czar could possibly track all the available educational options that the free market would provide...if individuals had that choice.

 

Do you think it is desirable for the public school system to collapse? I do not.

[LAS in LA]

There is no US government outside of the people. You are falling for a false dichotomy of the US government versus its people.

 

This dichotomy made less sense to me when we lived in Virginia, knew government/military people, etc. In civilian life, far from D.C., it seems a lot more plausible (that the government is it's own entity separate from its citizenry).

[Ray]

<sniped Quote>

Do you think it is desirable for the public school system to collapse? I do not.

 

 

I am not saying that parents would choose to leave public schools behind, they could spend thattax credit there, and let the schools reap the rewards of a job well done. And it would let schools choose their customers;)

[Mona100]

Unfortunately, Ellie, in a few states it is true. HSLDA came in in wrecked havoc in PA and NY. I think the way they stopped helping homeschoolers in AL is pretty short sighted. (Having to belong to a church school. Gee, what do those who homeschool secularly have to do?)

 

I live in Alabama. My mother was very upset about the fact of church schools. She helped me keep my daughter in the beginning of this homeschool adventure that I am on now; so, I had to find one that did not include a statement of faith. I told her she could have created one based on the religion of Odin (which she is now practicing). She almost took me up on it. At my church school, you can be as involved as you want to be. I am not particularly religious and I have no problems with it myself. I use no religious based curriculum at this time and hopefully will not ever have too. I just have to remember at the functions I participate in I have to watch my potty mouth. :tongue_smilie:

[Mrs Mungo]

This dichotomy made less sense to me when we lived in Virginia, knew government/military people, etc. In civilian life, far from D.C., it seems a lot more plausible (that the government is it's own entity separate from its citizenry).

 

The US government is not separate from its citizens. Your perception may have been altered, the government was not. If you feel divorced from the government, there are plenty of ways to be involved at all levels. This is particularly true with something like schools that are controlled mostly by local and state government.

 

I am not saying that parents would choose to leave public schools behind, they could spend thattax credit there, and let the schools reap the rewards of a job well done. And it would let schools choose their customers;)

 

That is not an answer to the question that I asked.

[Mommyfaithe]

Most people here will tell you that they do *not* want tax credits or other forms of money from federal or state governments. Time has proven that when the government's money is used, then the government (and not necessarily wrongly) believes it should have oversight. We don't want oversight, therefore, we do not want money or tax credits. Government money does not equal greater liberty.

 

I would love a tax credit for my educational expenses prior to college level. I have no problem paying taxes for Public schools. I think they could be run more efficiently and with better results, but that is a whole nuther argument. However, my children do not get the benefit of our tax dollars....because we choose to educate them ourselves...BUT, I would just love to be able to use some of my own money to better and mnore efficiently teach my own. :D

 

Faithe

[Mona100]

Most people here will tell you that they do *not* want tax credits or other forms of money from federal or state governments. Time has proven that when the government's money is used, then the government (and not necessarily wrongly) believes it should have oversight. We don't want oversight, therefore, we do not want money or tax credits. Government money does not equal greater liberty.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: x1 million.

[Mrs Mungo]

I would love a tax credit for my educational expenses prior to college level. I have no problem paying taxes for Public schools. I think they could be run more efficiently and with better results, but that is a whole nuther argument. However, my children do not get the benefit of our tax dollars....because we choose to educate them ourselves...BUT, I would just love to be able to use some of my own money to better and mnore efficiently teach my own. :D

 

Faithe

 

Should people without kids receive a credit for not participating in the school system? People whose kids are grown? If only those who participated in the public schools paid for them, then the schools would not survive.

[Wheres Toto]

It's not totally shocking in NY. NY loves rules and regulations. There are so many rules, laws, and regulations that I think it's safest to sit still in a chair and never leave the house because you are sure to break one of them (oh wait...there is probably a limit to how long one is allowed to sit in a chair).

 

This is why I'm so surprised that NJ has so little homeschool regulation (none). We have laws for every other thing you could possibly imagine, we are definitely a highly regulated state in everything BUT homeschooling.

[Ray]

 

 

 

That is not an answer to the question that I asked.

 

 

 

Yes No, answers do not promote exchange of ideas, they tend to pigeon hole us into groups or sides being for or against a thing. My answer did actually answer your question, I want them to succeed...the world view that the status quo achieves that...now that question...that would be fun.

:D

[Mommyfaithe]

Should people without kids receive a credit for not participating in the school system? People whose kids are grown? If only those who participated in the public schools paid for them, then the schools would not survive.

 

I don't want a credit for non=participation. I think maybe I used the wrong term. I would like to see educational expenses deductible...such as outside math classes, textbooks, online courses such as K12 or MP Logic. I would also like to see tuitions tax deductible.

 

Faithe

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't want a credit for non=participation. I think maybe I used the wrong term. I would like to see educational expenses deductible...such as outside math classes, textbooks, online courses such as K12 or MP Logic. I would also like to see tuitions tax deductible.

 

Faithe

 

Some states allow this already. You could petition for it in your own state. We don't pay state income tax, so it's a moot point for us.

[6packofun]

The regulations are so varied, not because of one group or organization getting involved, but because each individual state, when it's lawmakers decided that homeschooling was something to pay attention to, had to work with whatever legislation already existed and either amend it, add to it, or overturn it/change it/override it. Some "homeschool laws" are part and parcel of a state's non-public school regulations simply because they were vague enough for homeschooling to fall within those parameters. Other homeschool laws/regulations (whatever they are called, it's not uniform, obviously) were created out of nothing.

 

And for these things to be changed, again, legislators will have the complex issue of deciding HOW to integrate or implement it into the state's legal code, etc.

[LAS in LA]

The US government is not separate from its citizens. Your perception may have been altered, the government was not. If you feel divorced from the government, there are plenty of ways to be involved at all levels. This is particularly true with something like schools that are controlled mostly by local and state government.

 

I agree. My comment was about the way things seem to be, not the way they are or should be. At a certain point, perception matters more than fact because perception limits what we think we can do. When people think that sending their children to public or private school is the only option for education, they don't consider teaching them at home. Their perception is limiting. Hooray for the early homeschool parents who rightfully involved themselves in the democratic process.

 

[i do not now feel divorced from the government. Just noticing that previous proximity to places of govt. power had a lot to do with my empowered feelings.]

[ElizabethB]

People are often surprised to find out there are no regs in CT either. *Sigh* I sure do miss that.

 

:iagree:

 

NJ and CT are surprising. Also, Illinois, which regulates and taxes a ton of things, has no homeschool regs. It is very strange. Many of the public schools also charge fees for attending school in IL, you could easily homeschool for less!

[happyhomemaker25]

Nah....homeschool regs in NY came about because parents were being hauled off to jail for educational neglect/child abuse for homeschooling in a state where the Teachers Union rules and reigns. HSLDA and LEAH, I believe tried to put together a plan that was acceptable to both the teachers union and parents of home schooled kids. I think there were concessions on the part of HSLDA and LEAH that they would have rathered not have to make. It was a bloody fight...and the schools still don't know...after 20 years...what the regs say or mean, and it is left up to each school superintendent to interpret.

 

I am not sure where secular or academics only fit into this picture...homeschooling was very rare here when I started. The hippy unschoolers just went under the radar...no ss#'s, home birth with no birth certificates....mostly rich trust fund brats who could do what they want because daddy was paying for it.....

 

Christian homeschoolers were being advised at that time to pull their kids OUT of the wicked ungodly school systems and homeschool. When they did...those wicked truant officers showed up....and CPS...etc. It wasn't a pretty site.

 

We had to be very careful back in the day. We started homeschooling under very frightening conditions, very,very new regulations and an aggressive, hostile homeschooling environment.

 

I have been very blessed...but not everyone has been. There are lots of war stories of people losing their kids....being hauled off to jail, being hauled into court etc.

 

I don't think regs are necessarily a bad thing, but in NY....we are not considered pRt of the school system, we can not participate in any classes or extra curricular activities including sports or band, we can't even use the track for gym......we can not earn a high school diploma, Even though we are frequired to send in a Individualized Home Instruction Plan every year, a report on what we covered every 9 weeks, and year end evaluations either in the form of testing or a writ ten summation. After 12 years of thT, my kids still had to take a GED to get into CC. They changed that a bit now, Where the Superintendent can grant a Letter of Completion...which really isn't worth the paper it is written on....or a student can take 24 college credits.

Problem being, the cc does NOT like to take dual enrolled students that are home schooled. The PS gets priority...so there are not many class opportunities left.

 

It can get ugly.

 

I know some groups are trying for homeschool LAW. I think that would be wY worse than regulations!!

 

I think they should make a choice and decide...if we are part of the school system, then we should be entitled to the services we pAy for with our taxes....which are exorbitant.....If we are not part of the school system, then let us write our letter of intent...and be done with having to deal with the bureaucratic nonsense, put there the the TU can still wield some sort of control....

 

Just a f ew of my 2 centses....

Faithe

 

Ugh! Bless you Faithe for dealing with all of that. That's why whenever hubby asks me where I would like to live one day NY is immediately pulled off the table. I can barely deal with getting my portfolio ready to be reviewed by a certified teacher of my choice every year.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I recall a law suit years ago where a grad sued the school for failing to educate him.

 

My memory is that the school claimed and the court agreed that their obligation was very low - just enough to function. I think it was something like 8th grade equivalence.

 

Given this logic any upper level course work would be beyond the district's mandate. Not sure if that's the logic they are using but I can see how they could get there.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Ime money comes with strings. It's great if you can afford to walk away from the money. Less great when you cannot and you are submitting 30+ pages of invoices and other paperwork per semester to have every line item inspected and objected to. I was in a govt reimbursement program for three years. Don't wish to go back.

[creekland]

 

Also wondering if (in general) the regulations even do anything (other than increased paperwork)?

 

Just wanted to share one "plus" we came across verbally this year. Homeschooling in a "regulated" state has meant colleges have required less from us.

 

In a college group info session someone asked about homeschoolers and the group was told that this particular college welcomed homeschoolers (most do). Then the admissions counselor went on to say if the student was from a "regulated state" (used PA as an example) then they were fine with the transcript as it was since our "years" are approved by our local school district and an evaluator. If a student was from a "non-regulated state" (used NJ as an example) then the college wanted to "see more" (his words) along the lines of course descriptions, etc, to get a feel for what was actually covered.

 

Listening to him speak was like music to my ears (maybe regulation has been useful for something - a little thing - but nonetheless something).

 

I can't say all colleges are like this one, but out of two kids who have applied so far (different colleges), I haven't had one single thing questioned or ever needed to "provide more" than ps students (other than the basic homeschool supplement on the common app). I also have never done course descriptions (not even on the common app), etc, as some mention having to do on the high school board.