Another religion-related question: How do you join a denomination...

[Parker Martin]

That's a lot easier, though, when your church as a SoF that can fit on a single sheet of paper than when the catechism that contains your church's teachings is over 800 pages long.

 

I agree. That's why we aren't Catholic anymore. There were too many dogmas that I couldn't honestly say I accepted.

 

The SoF for the church we're in now would easily fit on 1/3 of a sheet of paper.

[nono]

I had to find this link for you OP! Took awhile. I wish you well on your journey, and maybe this article might help you spur more thinking.

[Heidi]

I don't think you should join a denomination if you cannot honestly sign or assent to its articles of faith.

 

Incidentally, this is why we joined a non-denominational church. The list of essentials to which a member must assent is extremely short. In all other matters, there is freedom. We figure that this way, we're not closed off from our Christian brothers and sisters who we might disagree with on specific points of doctrine, and we won't have to leave the church if we change our minds on any such specific points.

 

I can't help but wonder... if you can only agree on a short list of doctrinal points, what do you talk about on sundays? Wouldn't church feel a little shallow? And where does God stand on the points that you disagree with? Does He have multiple doctrines or just one?

[Matryoshka]

No, I don't know many. I live on the East Coast, where the country was founded and puritanism reigns supreme. I knew few Catholics and I know no ex-Catholics.

 

:) I also live on the East coast, in an area with many, many Catholics. My best friend is Catholic. I attended a Catholic high school (though I have never myself been Catholic). Most of the Catholics I knew from school (and my best friend) do not agree with 100% of the Catholic teachings, but do not seem overly concerned about it, and very much considered themselves Catholic. It was only recently, since I started homeschooling, that I met more conservative Catholics that followed the teachings and sacraments of the church much more closely.

 

But there are also lots of ex-Catholics around. I'd say about half the congregation of my church is ex-Catholics (this is probably due to the fact that I think over half of the Christians in this state are Catholics - not because they change denominations at any higher rate). My church is ironically a direct descendant of the original Puritan church - we're still in the same building that was built by them in colonial times - and is now one of the most liberal Christian denominations around (no creed), which I think is why a lot of people who fall away from more doctrinal churches end up there. :)

 

There's also a non-denominational church across the street that broke away a few years ago from a different non-denominational church - I don't think you need a denomination to haggle over doctrinal differences. :tongue_smilie:

 

The original Puritans 'round these parts were constantly kicking people out for not following every doctrinal point - that's how Rhode Island got founded. ;)

[Parker Martin]

I can't help but wonder... if you can only agree on a short list of doctrinal points, what do you talk about on sundays? Wouldn't church feel a little shallow? And where does God stand on the points that you disagree with? Does He have multiple doctrines or just one?

 

We talk about all sorts of things. Many issues where people in the church hold different beliefs. A few pastors rotate and have varying views in non-essentials. Things are often presented this way, "On this issue, some people think x because of y, some people think z because of a, I think b because of c." Or someone will be teaching a detailed Bible lesson and offer verbal footnotes as they go, "here we see so-and-so teaching x, some would say he's actually referring to y." It's very engaging.

 

God knows all of the specifics. I am very skeptical that any one human does.

[AimeeM]

I would need to search and find for myself, but I was told at one point (by a priest) that in the doctrine it makes *room* for Catholics who choose to disagree with the Church in any area; so long as it isn't done in haste, is prayed about, and researched.

On that note, one thing I love about being RC is that I have never, never felt that anything I do or believe ostracizes me from The Church as a whole. Perhaps I have just had wonderful parishes in my life. Lol.

I am a pro choice Catholic who has no issue with the country decriminalizing gay marriage... or anything else that doesn't directly impact the rights of another. I am incredibly personally conservative to boot. I have made decisions in my life that require more penance than I care to admit in a public forum - but I always find my way back to the Church.

I do not believe that The Church (or God) requires blind faith. In fact, I am a firm believer in using the brain God gave you; and that doing anything less would be a direct insult to Him.

That's a lot easier, though, when your church as a SoF that can fit on a single sheet of paper than when the catechism that contains your church's teachings is over 800 pages long.

 

I don't know, I guess I don't see why disagreement is such a big problem. (Which is ironic, given that the reason I'm an Episcopalian rather than a Catholic is that I'm still not quite sure I can in good faith return to the RCC, because of my stance on certain issues.) To me, if somebody wants to be a part of a denomination so much that they are willing to join even though they have things they disagree with it on, that just shows that they must really have strong feelings of connection to and affection for that denomination.

[melissel]

I didn't accept all of the Catholic Church's teachings at the start. I didn't know most of them, lol, and some of the difficult ones I didn't even want to know. It was only as I began to fall in love with the Church, with Jesus really, that I wanted to know as much as I could. The more I knew, the more it made sense, and I was able to accept things that had originally sounded ridiculous.

 

That is me, "I believe, Lord help my unbelief."

 

 

So I'm picking on you two because you have the clearest statements for me to quote :D Does this mean that you started out not agreeing with a few of the church's stances, but as you became more ensconced and educated, your own beliefs fell in line with the church's doctrine? All of it?

 

The confusion is that, since the 1960's, many people think that they can choose not to "believe in the church's stance" on such a firm and consistent teaching, but still consider themselves faithful Catholics in good standing. This relates directly to the OP's question.

 

Thanks for the clarification, Eleanor. Can you tell me what this means in practice? If you're in disagreement with the official doctrine, you can't receive communion? If you simply disagree in theory? Or do you have to be acting in a manner contradictory to the doctrine (e.g., actually using birth control)?

 

Thank you all for the discussion. I'm reading and absorbing :bigear:

[melissel]

I would need to search and find for myself, but I was told at one point (by a priest) that in the doctrine it makes *room* for Catholics who choose to disagree with the Church in any area; so long as it isn't done in haste, is prayed about, and researched.

On that note, one thing I love about being RC is that I have never, never felt that anything I do or believe ostracizes me from The Church as a whole. Perhaps I have just had wonderful parishes in my life. Lol.

I am a pro choice Catholic who has no issue with the country decriminalizing gay marriage... or anything else that doesn't directly impact the rights of another. I am incredibly personally conservative to boot. I have made decisions in my life that require more penance than I care to admit in a public forum - but I always find my way back to the Church.

I do not believe that The Church (or God) requires blind faith. In fact, I am a firm believer in using the brain God gave you; and that doing anything less would be a direct insult to Him.

 

Thank you for sharing that. You sound a lot like me.

[ElizaG]

I'm not sure what to explain? People have doctrinal differences both within & without their own church/denomination. As far as I know that is a fact that applies to human beings no matter which church or denomination they are affiliated with. Some people stop attending church altogether, some find congregations (same or different denominations) that are more in line with their beliefs, some just continue plugging away right where they are. ALL people do this, no?

It depends on what you mean by "doctrinal differences." Catholics believe that our Church was established by Christ with the authority to teach, and that its pope and councils are guided by the Holy Spirit. In terms of faith and morals, some things are open questions, but other things are settled. In the latter case, as the old saying goes, Roma locuta est, causa finita est (Rome has spoken; the case is closed). Until the last few decades, this was clearly understood by all Catholics, and non-Catholics for that matter. For instance, there's a popular prayer called the Act of Faith that includes this concept. Vatican II reiterated this concept of "religious submission of the mind and will" (obsequium religiosum).

 

Notwithstanding the recent dissent we've talked about in this thread, there are many Catholics who hold to this commitment. In our day, they're likely to be found more often among converts and reverts, as well as among families (such as my own) who've chosen homeschooling at least partly for religious reasons. People who accept the necessity of submitting to the Church's teaching authority are sometimes referred to as "conservative," but that's a political term that doesn't make much sense when it's applied to our faith. We believe that by following the Church, we're following Christ, and I'm not sure who would call Him a conservative. :001_huh:

 

Of course, it's likely that all of us will experience difficulties when it comes to understanding some of the doctrines and the reasons behind them. And it's to be expected that we'll often fall short in living them out. But to deliberately persist in believing something when we know it contradicts a clear Church teaching? No, that's not universal at all.

[QueenCat]

Option C would be the closest answer I could come to except too much of Being open to having your heart/mind changed". I've spent years thinking over the "mind changing" given to me by my old churches. The beliefs I've settled are 100% between me and God. I hope and plan to NEVER to influenced by the teachings of one person or organization again. If I could find a church that I agreed withenough then it would be with the understanding with myself that my beliefs are MINE and the discrepancies with those and the church are just not game changers. What I've come to believe about the nature of God won't likely change and if so not from outside of my relationship strictly between God.

 

Clear as mud? ;)

 

To answer the OP question, I don't expect to ever find an actual entire denomination I 100% agree with. However, I'd love to find a church or meeting group of some kind that I don't have deal-breaking disagreements with. I don't think 100% is necessary or I suspect lots of sheep present.

 

 

:iagree:Nope, not clear as mud. I understand completely as this is pretty much my view too.

[ktgrok]

Look at it this way. I am a citizen of the USA. I don't agree with all the current laws. But just because I disagree with certain laws I'm not going to renounce my citizenship. I don't think my country has it all right, but I think they have more right than the other countries, so I'm staying put. Same thing with church. I might disagree with certain doctrines, but if I think the denomination I'm in has more right than the other denominations, than I'm staying. Because it is about the big picture after all.

 

Specifically regarding Catholicism, I've read a book that said, in relation to the Pope, "just because I disagree with my Father doesn't mean I think I don't need one."

[Avila]

So I'm picking on you two because you have the clearest statements for me to quote :D Does this mean that you started out not agreeing with a few of the church's stances, but as you became more ensconced and educated, your own beliefs fell in line with the church's doctrine? All of it?:

 

I hope it is ok if I jump in on this. For me, the answer is Yes. This is what happened.

 

I think it goes back to authority. I think Jesus left us a Church and a shepherd and a way to know the truth and keep bringing the truth forward. The Church is my authority. If I don't agree with it, I need to ask myself why that is. Am I being selfish? Am i being proud or arrogant? Do I not understand the teaching? How likely is it that I am right and historical Christianity is wrong?

 

If I am struggling with something my Church teaches, then it is something I need to keep working with, thinking about and learning about. I don't have to get it all at once or overnight, but I do have a responsibility to make decisions with an informed conscience. My conscience is only informed if it is based on the truth, and that cannot be MY truth. It has to be THE truth.

 

I have found that if I am struggling, I have been the one at fault, selfish, ignorant or willfully misunderstanding something to make my own life easier or less complicated. I am only one small person and my thoughts and perceptions are just that, small, when you look at them in terms of history, faith and theology. I just do not and cannot know all of the implications to say that my own little opinion is more important than the weight of history. If one of us is wrong, I have to assume it is me and start there. I have always, so far, been able to move on from that point, when I realize the world and the truth is bigger than I can comprehend and that having that basis for truth is worth it, even when I don't intuitively see it.

[8circles]

Notwithstanding the recent dissent we've talked about in this thread, there are many Catholics who hold to this commitment. In our day, they're likely to be found more often among converts and reverts, as well as among families (such as my own) who've chosen homeschooling at least partly for religious reasons. People who accept the necessity of submitting to the Church's teaching authority are sometimes referred to as "conservative," but that's a political term that doesn't make much sense when it's applied to our faith. We believe that by following the Church, we're following Christ, and I'm not sure who would call Him a conservative. :001_huh:

 

Of course, it's likely that all of us will experience difficulties when it comes to understanding some of the doctrines and the reasons behind them. And it's to be expected that we'll often fall short in living them out. But to deliberately persist in believing something when we know it contradicts a clear Church teaching? No, that's not universal at all.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I don't mean that everyone has doctrinal differences but that people of all churches/denominations have do & they handle them in the same way. So yes, I believe the struggle is universal across churches/denominations but obviously not every person.

[justamouse]

So I'm picking on you two because you have the clearest statements for me to quote :D Does this mean that you started out not agreeing with a few of the church's stances, but as you became more ensconced and educated, your own beliefs fell in line with the church's doctrine? All of it?

 

 

Lol, I think someone resurrected threads from last year where I was violently opposed to some of the stances.

 

Meh, I say I'm going this way, God says Oh yeah? and makes me eat my words. It's a game we play often. :D Becoming Catholic was the last on the 'I'll Never' list. :D:D

 

Yikes, where would I start? Life is like an orchestra, everyone's doing something with their own sheets of music, and it comes together as a whole. So it was actually the EO ladies that started explaining some of the misconceptions I had strongly held. And, they didn't get offended, they believed my sincerity. So I asked and asked and I started being open to the possibility of becoming EO-that was a lot of learning I had to do about what my stances actually were, and their rebuttals to them and I dealt with many (not all) of my objections-or became willing to concede that they could be right.

 

Now, my wrench came with my Dh. He was NOT going to an EO church. And I knew it, and my heart was sooo torn-I had my heart set on being EO. My Dh *would* go to a RCC church (he was, though more of a cultural Catholic, and we had both worshiped in Protestant churches together-though dh never *left* the RCC in his heart-he wouldn't say a thing against it) and I refused to sit under the Pope, dang it. I know he wouldn't have objected had I brought my kids to an EO church, but that's not what I wanted. I wanted him there, too. So I just waited-for his heart to change, for my heart to change, whatever. And then my FIL passed, and the funeral was celebrated with a full mass.

 

On the three hour trip home all we could do was talk about how much we loved that priest and what he had to say (not like anything I'd ever experienced). So, then it was just me, --and he had to wait for me, to be open to submitting to the Pope. And so I got books out, and I read, and I bought more books, and I searched online and I read some more. Then I started falling in love with the guy (The Little Professor) because he's pretty awesome. :tongue_smilie: Joke's on me, no?

 

There are still some things I struggle with, but I'm willing to struggle with them as I'm a part of it, like a marriage, we struggle through it married, you know?

 

So we all go. And I love it. But it's a process, the only arrival is death. ;)

Edited October 12, 2011 by justamouse

[Jenny in Florida]

They have a family-like relationship with it, and you don't leave your family just because, for example, you disagree over politics.

 

First, my usual disclaimer: I'm a Unitarian Universalist, so my church is quite different from what many of you probably envision when using that word.

 

With that said, though, I agree with what twoforjoy said above. My denomination doesn't have a specific creed or set of beliefs we must all agree with. What we have, instead, are a set of guiding principles. Nonetheless, there are certainly ideas that are more or less assumed among UUs.

 

And I don't always agree with those ideas. I am not aligned exactly with the denomination's (or at least the majority of the members') poltics. And sometimes, the minister says things that I think are off the mark.

 

However, I've been a UU for more than half of my life. I'm on my third UU church, and making sure there is a fellowship nearby is on the list of things I do before I make a move. Because, when push comes to shove, the church is my family. It's where, when I go there, they have to let me in. It's where my kids have been raised. And it's so much a part of my identity that I can't really imagine leaving it behind.

 

Now, as I said, UUs are different. There's probably not as much pressure to buy into a specific list of beliefs as there might be in more traditional denominations. So, I probably don't struggle with this as much as other folks do. But the comment quoted above really resonated. It's exactly what I've told my husband and kids when we get frustrated with our church.

[justamouse]

I hope it is ok if I jump in on this. For me, the answer is Yes. This is what happened.

 

I think it goes back to authority. I think Jesus left us a Church and a shepherd and a way to know the truth and keep bringing the truth forward. The Church is my authority. If I don't agree with it, I need to ask myself why that is. Am I being selfish? Am i being proud or arrogant? Do I not understand the teaching? How likely is it that I am right and historical Christianity is wrong?

 

If I am struggling with something my Church teaches, then it is something I need to keep working with, thinking about and learning about. I don't have to get it all at once or overnight, but I do have a responsibility to make decisions with an informed conscience. My conscience is only informed if it is based on the truth, and that cannot be MY truth. It has to be THE truth.

I have found that if I am struggling, I have been the one at fault, selfish, ignorant or willfully misunderstanding something to make my own life easier or less complicated. I am only one small person and my thoughts and perceptions are just that, small, when you look at them in terms of history, faith and theology. I just do not and cannot know all of the implications to say that my own little opinion is more important than the weight of history. If one of us is wrong, I have to assume it is me and start there. I have always, so far, been able to move on from that point, when I realize the world and the truth is bigger than I can comprehend and that having that basis for truth is worth it, even when I don't intuitively see it.

 

So, so true.

[ElizaG]

I would need to search and find for myself, but I was told at one point (by a priest) that in the doctrine it makes *room* for Catholics who choose to disagree with the Church in any area; so long as it isn't done in haste, is prayed about, and researched.

Not having been there, I don't know what this priest was talking about, but that really sounds off. Especially the "in any area" part (would that include the divinity of Christ? :001_huh:).

 

In fact, I am a firm believer in using the brain God gave you; and that doing anything less would be a direct insult to Him.

I agree. Like some previous posters, though, I think it's a good thing that I don't have to decide the basic principles of doctrine and morality for myself. My brain is quite busy enough, what with trying to understand them and figure out how they apply in real life situations. :tongue_smilie:

[AimeeM]

Being only a forager bee on this lovely forum, I have no clue how to separate your quotes. Lol.

To put the Priest convo into perspective, it was said when discussing abortion. However, it may be of interest to some (although I assume that most know), that there is actually a movement within The Church, set in motion by nuns and brothers of the faith, that is decidely pro choice - although it tends to be in the context of third world countries and the belief that it is more humane to end a life that has never known *life* than to bring into the world a child that will only be neglected, abused, and subjected to extreme poverty, hunger, and disease. It can be applied to the same circumstances here though, I would imagine.

 

Not having been there, I don't know what this priest was talking about, but that really sounds off. Especially the "in any area" part (would that include the divinity of Christ? :001_huh:).

 

I agree. Like some previous posters, though, I think it's a good thing that I don't have to decide the basic principles of doctrine and morality for myself. My brain is quite busy enough, what with trying to understand them and figure out how they apply in real life situations. :tongue_smilie:

 

If I do not question those "basic principles"; coming to a conclusion on my own, I am lending nothing to my church, or my Father.

[justamouse]

Being only a forager bee on this lovely forum, I have no clue how to separate your quotes. Lol.

To put the Priest convo into perspective, it was said when discussing abortion. However, it may be of interest to some (although I assume that most know), that there is actually a movement within The Church, set in motion by nuns and brothers of the faith, that is decidely pro choice - although it tends to be in the context of third world countries and the belief that it is more humane to end a life that has never known *life* than to bring into the world a child that will only be neglected, abused, and subjected to extreme poverty, hunger, and disease. It can be applied to the same circumstances here though, I would imagine.

Jumpin' Jehoshaphat.

[Joanne]

I don't. I currently work Sundays, so I don't attend. But when I wasn't working Sundays, I had been attending a church that I will never join. I don't agree on at least 3 major issues.

 

We go because it's a match for my DH and kids at the moment, and the stability for the kids is important in my life context. They know why I won't join. They are teens, so I let them make their own decisions on religious affiliation.

 

I have researched and studied the issues I am not mentioning, and feel quite comfortable departing from the denomination stand on them. It's not my denominational heritage anyway. ;) I *might* could return to that someday.

 

At this point, I can't imagine joining any church, but I am happy to attend, contribute and participate in ways allowed for non members if I think other areas of that church are productive.

[Pink Fairy]

So I'm picking on you two because you have the clearest statements for me to quote :D Does this mean that you started out not agreeing with a few of the church's stances, but as you became more ensconced and educated, your own beliefs fell in line with the church's doctrine? All of it?

 

 

 

:bigear:

 

In my case, I knew about some of the Church's more shocking stances, like not using birth control, but wasn't going to let that nonsense keep me out, lol. I began studying together with my dh, and things started getting exciting. The more I learned, the more I wanted to learn! It was fun, it was amazing, it was a lot like falling in love. I didn't have it all figured out before we joined, but I was confident that the answers were there and I would find them eventually.

 

Nowadays my faith reminds me a lot of my marriage (probably because we became Catholic about a year after we got married--I was all of 20yo :svengo:). The initial excitement and thrill of discovery has softened and mellowed, but it's also deeper and intrinsically part of who I am. I do accept it all, but I'm smart enough to know that it's not because I'm extra smart. It's a gift, and one that God probably gave me because He knew I'd have other things to struggle with.

 

As far as agreeing with the Church, many Catholics don't. I suspect it's usually because they just don't want to, but it can also be that they researched it thoroughly and simply could not align their consciences with what the Church teaches. The Catechism of the Catholic Church addresses this:

 

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

 

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin. In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Mamabegood
Removed bolding from my copy/paste

[Avila]

I do not believe that The Church (or God) requires blind faith. In fact, I am a firm believer in using the brain God gave you; and that doing anything less would be a direct insult to Him.

 

I am not picking on you, but this statement kind of spoke to me because I often hear this as a criticism. How can I let the Pope do my thinking for me? How can I give over to someone else that kind of authority?

 

And to be honest, I am sure at points in my life, I thought this too. But faith in something doesn't have to be blind. Sometimes the smartest thing you can do is to find someone with more experience and more complete perspective than you have and follow that rather than to rethink everything yourself. I think sometimes that what I just said is almost un-American ;), but I simply don't have the time and energy to research every component of my life and become an expert before i move on.

 

Most of us start with some basics as a beginning, even in our faith. Maybe it is just the existence of God. Maybe we assume the Trinity or the Resurrection. But I think we all assume something that we have been taught and that we have not necessarily started with from scratch. If, for example, I went back to the beginning, would I -- left completely to my own reason and logic -- come up with any of it? I cannot tell you how hard it was for me to accept the idea of the trinity at first (eons ago, in my pre-Catholic life even), so I don't think I would have come to that on my own, without the guidance of the church. And I can, if I am honest, say that about so many other Christian doctrines that most Christians agree on and take by faith.

 

Faith has to start somewhere. We don't all get a visit from God with divine revelation. At some point, we have to realize that we are all taking someone else's ideas, doctrines and interpretations as a basis. I don't know anyone who starts completely from ground zero.

 

And if I can trust the Church in some things, why is it such a jump to believe they are trustworthy on other things as well?

 

Blind faith means, to me, that I don't think about something. I just believe it. And I think there will always be that element to Christianity because there Are elements that we simply cannot prove in this realm. But as a Catholic, I can question, and struggle and learn, as long as I realize that I am not God. There are things that I may never understand. Those are the things I will take on faith and let the Church be my guide.

[Avila]

Being only a forager bee on this lovely forum, I have no clue how to separate your quotes. Lol.

To put the Priest convo into perspective, it was said when discussing abortion. However, it may be of interest to some (although I assume that most know), that there is actually a movement within The Church, set in motion by nuns and brothers of the faith, that is decidely pro choice - although it tends to be in the context of third world countries and the belief that it is more humane to end a life that has never known *life* than to bring into the world a child that will only be neglected, abused, and subjected to extreme poverty, hunger, and disease. It can be applied to the same circumstances here though, I would imagine.

 

 

 

If I do not question those "basic principles"; coming to a conclusion on my own, I am lending nothing to my church, or my Father.

 

Nothing surprises me. I do think that it is one thing to have doubts and struggle with things on a personal level and remain within the Church. It is completely another to publicly teach those things against the direct and clear teaching of the Church.

[AimeeM]

I agree and disagree with you.

I disagree because I am (admittedly) a 26 year old who still has a rebellious streak a mile wide. I'm sure I will sing a different tune in a few years :lol:

With that said, I cannot (at the moment) tell my children that something is *so*, when I question it myself. I cannot (will not, at the moment) put myself in the position of having a conversation with my children such as:

"Mom, what is abortion"

-"Abortion is.... (in kid appropriate terms)"

"What do you think about that Mom"

-"Well sweetie, The Church says that Abortion is murder"

"So you believe it's murder Mom?"

-"The Church believe it's murder Dear"

"So YOU believe it's murder Mom?"

 

Can you see where this is going? It is conversations like these that I stay far away from (and with an inquisitive daughter who is only one year out of Catholic school and is going back next year, they will occur more often than not).

I hope (I pray) that at some point I have that blind faith; but at the moment, I feel called to question my faith - as idiotic as that sounds. I do not question it in front of my children, but I question them to myself, and often look to my husband for guidance (older, and has a vast knowledge/love for Church history being the product of a Catholic K-12 education in an Italian immigrant home).

One day I'll get where you are in your faith, God willing. Right now I am content to talk to Him, argue Him, question Him - and one day, it'll lead me where I need to be.

Yes, I still consider myself a Catholic - and a good one at that :o)

I am not picking on you, but this statement kind of spoke to me because I often hear this as a criticism. How can I let the Pope do my thinking for me? How can I give over to someone else that kind of authority?

 

And to be honest, I am sure at points in my life, I thought this too. But faith in something doesn't have to be blind. Sometimes the smartest thing you can do is to find someone with more experience and more complete perspective than you have and follow that rather than to rethink everything yourself. I think sometimes that what I just said is almost un-American ;), but I simply don't have the time and energy to research every component of my life and become an expert before i move on.

 

Most of us start with some basics as a beginning, even in our faith. Maybe it is just the existence of God. Maybe we assume the Trinity or the Resurrection. But I think we all assume something that we have been taught and that we have not necessarily started with from scratch. If, for example, I went back to the beginning, would I -- left completely to my own reason and logic -- come up with any of it? I cannot tell you how hard it was for me to accept the idea of the trinity at first (eons ago, in my pre-Catholic life even), so I don't think I would have come to that on my own, without the guidance of the church. And I can, if I am honest, say that about so many other Christian doctrines that most Christians agree on and take by faith.

 

Faith has to start somewhere. We don't all get a visit from God with divine revelation. At some point, we have to realize that we are all taking someone else's ideas, doctrines and interpretations as a basis. I don't know anyone who starts completely from ground zero.

 

And if I can trust the Church in some things, why is it such a jump to believe they are trustworthy on other things as well?

 

Blind faith means, to me, that I don't think about something. I just believe it. And I think there will always be that element to Christianity because there Are elements that we simply cannot prove in this realm. But as a Catholic, I can question, and struggle and learn, as long as I realize that I am not God. There are things that I may never understand. Those are the things I will take on faith and let the Church be my guide.

[Joanne]

Nothing surprises me. I do think that it is one thing to have doubts and struggle with things on a personal level and remain within the Church. It is completely another to publicly teach those things against the direct and clear teaching of the Church.

 

:) The Church is not my master.

 

God is, on a good day, and in my world, the church is lowercase. :001_smile:

[Joanne]

I agree and disagree with you.

I disagree because I am (admittedly) a 26 year old who still has a rebellious streak a mile wide. I'm sure I will sing a different tune in a few years :lol:

With that said, I cannot (at the moment) tell my children that something is *so*, when I question it myself. I cannot (will not, at the moment) put myself in the position of having a conversation with my children such as:

"Mom, what is abortion"

-"Abortion is.... (in kid appropriate terms)"

"What do you think about that Mom"

-"Well sweetie, The Church says that Abortion is murder"

"So you believe it's murder Mom?"

-"The Church believe it's murder Dear"

"So YOU believe it's murder Mom?"

 

Can you see where this is going? It is conversations like these that I stay far away from (and with an inquisitive daughter who is only one year out of Catholic school and is going back next year, they will occur more often than not).

I hope (I pray) that at some point I have that blind faith; but at the moment, I feel called to question my faith - as idiotic as that sounds. I do not question it in front of my children, but I question them to myself, and often look to my husband for guidance (older, and has a vast knowledge/love for Church history being the product of a Catholic K-12 education in an Italian immigrant home).

One day I'll get where you are in your faith, God willing. Right now I am content to talk to Him, argue Him, question Him - and one day, it'll lead me where I need to be.

Yes, I still consider myself a Catholic - and a good one at that :o)

 

I am 20 years older and still have that streak. I may have missed something in the thread, but I am wondering why you can't say some 6 year old form of "some churches believe X, some believe Y, and Mom believes B".

 

I do that all the time around here; and have since my kids were 6.

[Avila]

:) The Church is not my master.

 

God is, on a good day, and in my world, the church is lowercase. :001_smile:

 

I was referring to the priests, nuns and monks who remain inside the Church, subject themselves to the authority of the Church, and then publicly contradict that.

 

If you are not part of the Church, it would not apply to you.

[AimeeM]

She's 10, not 6, and requires a bit more than that. Lol. I do agree that if she were a bit younger, I could be more vague, but she is deeply entrenched (and committed) in The Church.

I am 20 years older and still have that streak. I may have missed something in the thread, but I am wondering why you can't say some 6 year old form of "some churches believe X, some believe Y, and Mom believes B".

 

I do that all the time around here; and have since my kids were 6.

[AimeeM]

I think that perhaps a bit of compassion be given on this note. I believe that the religious brothers and sisters I had heard about (keeping in mind that I have not researched this myself) have spent many years in these third world countries watching children waste away, men rape little girls, families kill eachother, etc.

I was referring to the priests, nuns and monks who remain inside the Church, subject themselves to the authority of the Church, and then publicly contradict that.

 

If you are not part of the Church, it would not apply to you.

[Joanne]

I was referring to the priests, nuns and monks who remain inside the Church, subject themselves to the authority of the Church, and then publicly contradict that.

 

If you are not part of the Church, it would not apply to you.

 

Ok. That makes sense.

[Avila]

Can you see where this is going? It is conversations like these that I stay far away from (and with an inquisitive daughter who is only one year out of Catholic school and is going back next year, they will occur more often than not).

I hope (I pray) that at some point I have that blind faith; but at the moment, I feel called to question my faith - as idiotic as that sounds. I do not question it in front of my children, but I question them to myself, and often look to my husband for guidance (older, and has a vast knowledge/love for Church history being the product of a Catholic K-12 education in an Italian immigrant home).

One day I'll get where you are in your faith, God willing. Right now I am content to talk to Him, argue Him, question Him - and one day, it'll lead me where I need to be.

Yes, I still consider myself a Catholic - and a good one at that :o)

 

There is nothing wrong with questioning your faith. I think people who ask those questions and find answers to them end up with a much stronger faith than those who never do. Keep asking questions. (And strangely enough, it usually is those awkward conversations with our kids that challenge us in our faith and can lead us to a better understanding and a much deeper faith, if we let them. If I told you all the things I have learned teaching my own kids, I would completely embarrass myself admitting all I should have known before that but didn't.)

 

But as a Catholic, try to look for those answers first inside the Church. That is part of your baptismal call, to have an informed faith. Nobody is asking you to have a blind one. But try, if you can, to look for those answers within the catechism, in the writings of the saints, in the words if the Church fathers. If you exhaust all that, keep praying and keep asking those questions of solid priests and informed Catholics before you come up dead-set on the other side of something the Church has decreed. And then look again at why the Church has the right in the first place to make those decisions. These are things that, as a Catholic, we are called to do to be able to make decisions based on conscience because they are what it takes to have an informed conscience.

 

In the end, I am not judging you, and the Church isn't either. God is the only one who, in his mercy, has that right. I have no more right than you do to call myself a good Catholic. I try each day (and largely fail, to be honest) to live as a Faithful Catholic, and that is all part of the journey.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Asenik

[OnTheBrink]

This is a question I'm wrestling with right now. I don't agree with a major doctrine my church teaches. I did believe it when I joined, but after about a year or so of studying, I'm finding that I don't believe in it any longer.

 

However. I don't have anywhere else to go. Oh, there are other churches here (LOTS!) but there isn't one like the one I want to attend. And, I love the people (well, most of them ;) ) and I do believe their love for God is real and their faith is sincere and true. I just can't really align with a major doctrinal issue. So, for now, I'm staying where I am and I'm continuing to study and am starting to teach my teen a little of what I'm studying and I'm praying for God to show me what to do next. I don't want to "run away"; I want to "run to". So, I keep quiet on what I don't agree about and continue to support this church until God puts me somewhere else, if He ever does.

[AimeeM]

*Chuckle*

Being the product of holiday Catholics, but married to a cradle Italian Catholic who probably first spoke of the Latin Mass instead of something obvious like "Mama"; I can honestly say that I am trying very hard. I learn every day with my children. We enrolled in Kolbe Academy, in part to take the religious education off the table for me, and allow me to study with them, without worrying about leading them elsewhere with my own questions.

It does also help that while my husband is so devoutly Catholic, he is also a scientist - which means he is familiar with most of my questions and concerns, and is used to addressing them. Add to that his incredible patience.

Unfortunately, we haven't yet found a Parish home here. I left my hometown to marry him, and he is originally from Philadelphia. We now live in SC (across from BJU) and are having a hard time finding a conservative parish that we enjoy (not many choices).

Thank your for your kind and understanding words :o

There is nothing wrong with questioning your faith. I think people who ask those questions and find answers to them end up with a much stronger faith than those who never do. Keep asking questions.

 

But as a Catholic, try to look for those answers first inside the Church. That is part of your baptismal call, to have an informed faith. Nobody is asking you to have a blind one. But try, if you can, to look for those answers within the catechism, in the writings of the saints, in the words if the Church fathers. If you exhaust all that, keep praying and keep asking those questions of solid priests and informed Catholics before you come up dead-set on the other side of something the Church has decreed. And then look again at why the Church has the right in the first place to make those decisions. These are things that, as a Catholic, we are called to do to be able to make decisions based on conscience because they are what it takes to have an informed conscience.

 

In the end, I am not judging you, and the Church isn't either. God is the only one who, in his mercy, has that right. I have no more right than you do to call myself a good Catholic. I try each day (and largely fail, to be honest) to live as a Faithful Catholic, and that is all part of the journey.

[Avila]

*Chuckle*

Being the product of holiday Catholics, but married to a cradle Italian Catholic who probably first spoke of the Latin Mass instead of something obvious like "Mama"; I can honestly say that I am trying very hard. I learn every day with my children. We enrolled in Kolbe Academy, in part to take the religious education off the table for me, and allow me to study with them, without worrying about leading them elsewhere with my own questions.

It does also help that while my husband is so devoutly Catholic, he is also a scientist - which means he is familiar with most of my questions and concerns, and is used to addressing them. Add to that his incredible patience.

Unfortunately, we haven't yet found a Parish home here. I left my hometown to marry him, and he is originally from Philadelphia. We now live in SC (across from BJU) and are having a hard time finding a conservative parish that we enjoy (not many choices).

Thank your for your kind and understanding words :o

 

I will pray for you, if you pray for me! This is a journey. It is not a pop quiz. And we, none of us, have to have all the answers at once. That is one of the things I love about being Catholic.

[AimeeM]

As my 10 year old would say "I'm down to pray for anyone!"

Lol.

 

I will pray for you, if you pray for me! This is a journey. It is not a pop quiz. And we, none of us, have to have all the answers at once. That is one of the things I love about being Catholic.

[Heather in Neverland]

So what happens when your rib issue is a denom's spine issue?

 

You mean if a particular denomination has decided that something like a belief in YE creation is ESSENTIAL to salvation or mandatory for joining their church... And I felt that this issue is a rib issue and shouldn't matter so much?

 

I wouldn't join and to be honest, they probably wouldn't want me.

 

This did happen once to me. A church we were considering joining had something in their SoF that I just couldn't sign my name to. I explained my reservations and they said I couldn't join unless I did. Their party...their rules. So I went elsewhere.

[ElizaG]

Thanks for the clarification, Eleanor. Can you tell me what this means in practice? If you're in disagreement with the official doctrine, you can't receive communion?

Questions such as "who can and can't receive communion" are way above my pay grade. ;) Even if a person is doing something that's held to be seriously wrong in objective terms, there could be mitigating factors such as invincible ignorance or being coerced into it. But these are factors that are out of the person's conscious control. They're not loopholes we can seek out deliberately.

 

If you simply disagree in theory? Or do you have to be acting in a manner contradictory to the doctrine (e.g., actually using birth control)?

Similar considerations would apply if a person just disagrees in theory, because this goes against the "religious submission of will and intellect" that Lumen Gentium talks about. NB though, disagreement isn't the same as the sort of difficulties that many people experience in understanding the reasons for the teachings, as justamouse and others have talked about in this thread. As Cardinal Newman put it, "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt."

 

Back in the late 60's, the media scholar (and convert from Protestantism) Marshall McLuhan wrote the introduction to a book called Spectrum of Catholic Attitudes. The book itself was a collection of opinion pieces on contemporary topics, by everyone from William F. Buckley to... well, whoever was the opposite of William F. Buckley. ;) I can't find it right now, but McLuhan's introduction basically said that the whole book was pretty ridiculous, because the Catholic faith isn't about having private points of view. He said that this was an innovation that came about with the Reformation, when Europe lost the unity of the faith as a lived experience of prayer and worship, and everyone and their uncle started debating theological concepts.

 

His son Eric, in the introduction to a book of McLuhan's writings on religion, described faith as a mode of perception that's analogous to one of our bodily senses:

 

No healthy sense needs constant questioning and reexamination: if you can see or hear, well enough; you don't have to keep asking yourself, "Can I see? Can I hear?" You know beyond question whether you can hear or not, and it has nothing to do with theory or concepts. This attitude the outsider reads as arrogance or delusion, or both. Hence the paradox of assent (which appears to the outsider as blind subservience), on the one hand, and the Church's intense intellectualism, on the other.

I hope that makes some sense to someone. It's not a matter of thinking that Catholics who follow the Church have all the answers, or are somehow "above" others, or whatever. It's just that taking that leap of accepting and assenting to the faith in its entirety -- including the parts we haven't personally gone over with a fine tooth comb, the things we still find puzzling, and even the formulations of doctrine that haven't yet been declared -- gives a whole different frame of reference.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Eleanor
just rambling a bit more before bed ;-)

[SeekingHim77]

I have yet to find a denomination or church that I completely agree with on any level. I studied, searched and finally found the church that is closest to my ideal. I became a member and am very thankful for so much about it but I still disagree with some of the doctrine that the church holds to.

[elizabeth]

Actually reluctance to accept doctrine from the appeal to authority is likely a sign that you are healthy. http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2011-22.pdf

[Lady Florida.]

I was a cradle Catholic - born to an Italian-American mother and Irish-American father. I was attending Catholic school while Vatican II was in session. My family was mostly Cultural Catholic. As I became an adult, there were many things I disagreed with the church about, but remained "Catholic" because it was my culture. I was a Cafeteria Catholic. When John Paul II came to the U.S. in the late 80's and basically said you can't be a Cafeteria Catholic, I said "Okay. See ya."

 

Eventually I left all religion behind, but it started with me examining my beliefs as a Catholic.

[i.love.lucy]

disclaimer...I have not read every single reply in this thread.

 

 

My church has what they call Core/Characteristic/Charity beliefs. The Core beliefs are the ones we define as salvation issues, and ones that it's a deal breaker to disagree on (like faith and trust in Christ as the only means of salvation). The Characteristic beliefs are the ones that define us as a denomination, but we believe that they are not central to salvation and we are united with our brothers and sisters in Christ who might have a different opinion (like infant baptism vs believers baptism). The Charity beliefs are the ones that we can easily agree to disagree on within our own church and happily argue about (like whether you drink alcohol or are young/old earth).

 

My husband and I really liked this way of looking at it, and since we do align with this church's Core and Characteristic beliefs, we joined and are very happy.

 

I do think we can agree to disagree, but I doubt how anyone could be truly content sitting under the teaching of a church that they disagree with on major points of doctrine. That is to me a very helpful thing about denominations. I can rule out a whole bunch of potential churches because I know I don't agree with them doctrinally.

[TravelingChris]

I think it is interesting how generational divisions seem to affect orthodoxy. MOre specifically, in the number of mainline Protestant churches we have been affiliated with, the oldest members seem to be the least orthodox- sometimes veering off into heresy, in fact. Like my MIL, deceased 15 yo this month, who would have been in her 80's and wasn't familiar with Catholic doctrine at all. She had been a lifelong Catholic but somehow ended up mainly believing in magical ideas though she claimed those were Catholic. As both dh and I were brought up Catholic, made a very good try of it in college-studying Catholic theology once a week, and then switched to Protestantism, we knew what she believed wasn't proper Catholic teaching. Then in our church in Florida, we found other elderly people who also were veering off into very strange tangents= tele-evangelists who didn't align with the teachings of our church at all, various huckster beliefs-name it claim it, etc. Then in our newest church, one elderly man suddenly started talking about how reincarnation is true and not contrary to the Bible. A few other elderly persons also seemed to have skewed ideas. On the other hand, most of the 40-50 year olds I am meeting seem to have conventional Christian ideas and the preaching from the pulpits (both in Florida and here) has been totally orthodox and proper. It actually seemed to me that some of the elderly (not all by any means) were very prone to believing whatever was on tv or in a magazine. I have no idea if this is a change in these people- they used to be more skeptical and discerning and now they are not, or if they have always been this way and just continue. The man with the reincarnation ideas also seemed to get it from some tv show or article.

[ElizaG]

I think it is interesting how generational divisions seem to affect orthodoxy. MOre specifically, in the number of mainline Protestant churches we have been affiliated with, the oldest members seem to be the least orthodox- sometimes veering off into heresy, in fact.

Several years ago, at a rummage sale at a mainline Protestant church in Canada, I picked up a book called A Church Without God? It was written in 1966 by an Anglican minister, Ernest Harrison, and it basically says that God is an outdated concept, but no worries -- even if people give up their theistic beliefs altogether, the local church is still a great place to have coffee, talk about stuff with friends, and organize service projects. And that getting rid of the religious aspect would help the churches to "meet the needs" of contemporary society.

 

Rev. Harrison wasn't a marginal, obscure character. According to this article, he took part in writing the national Anglican Sunday School curriculum. The same article gives examples of mid-60's "theological evolution" among Presbyterians and others. So, yes, I think there were similar things happening in the mainline denominations when today's elderly church members were young adults. It just wasn't as obvious as it was with Catholics, because there was less of a central authority and firm theological tradition to tangle with. (Although, in the case of the Anglicans, their local bishop did eventually take away Harrison's clerical license.)

 

Later generations are much less likely to be involved with a church out of habit or social convention. If it's part of their lives, then they probably actually believe in it. If not 100%, at least much more so than some of their elders apparently did. :001_huh: