Kirch Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I think what disturbs me a bit is that some of these arguments seem to parallel arguments that victims of rape often face, especially date rape. Didn't want to have sex with that guy? You shouldn't have gone into the room with him alone. Didn't want to be kissed by the comedian? You shouldn't have gone onstage with him. I *KNOW* it's not the same thing--I'm definitely not trying to trivialize rape-- and I KNOW that those of you who said going onstage was consent would never say that a woman was responsible for being raped, but the argument is exactly the same. The severity of the offense is the only difference. Like I said before, unwanted physical, sexual contact is NEVER okay. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caterpiller Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I think I would ask the 15 year old how he felt about it and go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaBearTeacher Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 How awful for the teen. What an awful theater to allow this as part of a show! It seems to me that *if the teen wants* police could be called, legal avenues pursued, and complaints could be made to the management of the show, theater, funders etc. You don't want to traumatize the teen further if he doesn't want to go through that. But what happened was assault, whether adult or teen. One does not go to a theater expecting a stranger to kiss them. I have never heard of that before. If a show says "content not suitable for children" then that does not exclude teens from going. The teen should not be made to feel that it was his fault for attending the performance. The fact that the actor did this to an underage youth makes the situation even worse, more illegal in my opinion. I hope the teen has someone to talk to. This is not his fault in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I don't think it's okay for a person of *any* age to be kissed without consent. If a stranger kissed me without consent, I would probably punch them in the face. And I've never gotten in a fight in my life. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I don't think *anyone* in the audience should be kissed by a performer. That's just really weird. :iagree: Yuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleWMN Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I think what disturbs me a bit is that some of these arguments seem to parallel arguments that victims of rape often face, especially date rape. Didn't want to have sex with that guy? You shouldn't have gone into the room with him alone. Didn't want to be kissed by the comedian? You shouldn't have gone onstage with him. I *KNOW* it's not the same thing--I'm definitely not trying to trivialize rape-- and I KNOW that those of you who said going onstage was consent would never say that a woman was responsible for being raped, but the argument is exactly the same. The severity of the offense is the only difference. Like I said before, unwanted physical, sexual contact is NEVER okay. Period. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 I think what disturbs me a bit is that some of these arguments seem to parallel arguments that victims of rape often face, especially date rape. Didn't want to have sex with that guy? You shouldn't have gone into the room with him alone. Didn't want to be kissed by the comedian? You shouldn't have gone onstage with him. But I'm not sure about the parallel. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 But I'm not sure about the parallel. Laura As a rape survivor, I wouldn't equate the two. If all I had suffered was an unwanted kiss, it would not have been the life altering event that it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 He invited the boy onto stage and, as part of a story he was telling, grabbed him and kissed him. The boy (who is straight) did not seem worried about it. The kiss lasted about ten seconds. The boy was there with a same-age female friend. The show was broadcast on national television. No-one has called the police - I was just wondering what the hive's reaction would be. Laura IMO, the audience member's gender and sexual "orientation" have nothing to do with whether or not this was appropriate behavior on the part of the actor. If he did not secure prior agreement from an adult audience member, this comedian's actions were inconsiderate, rude, and wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirch Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 As a rape survivor, I wouldn't equate the two. If all I had suffered was an unwanted kiss, it would not have been the life altering event that it was. I totally understand that--and a kiss would be nowhere near as traumatic. They are not the same. But the argument against unwanted physical contact is the same. It's still not okay, and he still didn't "deserve" it just because he agreed to go onstage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I totally understand that--and a kiss would be nowhere near as traumatic. They are not the same. But the argument against unwanted physical contact is the same. It's still not okay, and he still didn't "deserve" it just because he agreed to go onstage. I don't think the point is that he "deserved" it but he did consent to be a part of the act by going up there. If the show is not appropriate for children it's a good bet that whatever happens on stage is not going to be tame. We just had a busker festival in town and people were often being dragged into the acts. They were hugged and danced with, given props, made props themselves...I didn't see one performance where a volunteer wasn't touched. It's probably why some folks singled out by the performers choose not to join them, because they knew it might entail some touching and other embarrassing stuff. At some point a person is responsible for the pickle they got themselves into. The boy went to the show, the boy got up on stage. And no, there's no comparison to rape because this was not an assault of any sort where the issue of consent is beside the point. It was a stage kiss. That's it. Big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetBean Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I don't think it's okay for a person of *any* age to be kissed without consent. If a stranger kissed me without consent, I would probably punch them in the face. And I've never gotten in a fight in my life. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Nope. If you don't want to be part of the play, simply refuse to join the performer on stage. That was where consent was given, when the 15 year old went on stage. :iagree: First, the 15-year old shouldn't have been there in the first place if I read the OP correctly. Second, since this was assumed to be an adult audience by the cast, and the 15-year old agreed to go up on stage, the cast member was performing...and assumed the person receiving the kiss was of age and consenting. I've been to many drama productions in London, and many involved audience participation. Even I, at age 48, living in the US, know enough about what might happen on stage in productions in smaller venues. Perhaps the parents are living under a rock? There's often a reason age limitations exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Nope. If you don't want to be part of the play, simply refuse to join the performer on stage. That was where consent was given, when the 15 year old went on stage. Going on stage is consent to have things done with your body that you don't want?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirch Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Going on stage is consent to have things done with your body that you don't want?? ITA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Going on stage is consent to have things done with your body that you don't want?? The boy didn't seem worried about what happened. So while he was probably surprised, it doesn't seem to be a big deal either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 The boy didn't seem worried about what happened. So while he was probably surprised, it doesn't seem to be a big deal either. We really don't know if he is bothered. He was on television. That might make someone afraid to react. If it was my son at 15, though? I would react. He's still a minor under my jurisdiction, years away from adulthood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 We really don't know if he is bothered. He was on television. That might make someone afraid to react. If it was my son at 15, though? I would react. He's still a minor under my jurisdiction, years away from adulthood. Well if he was my son at 15 (in less than a year!) then I would have done my homework. I think there is an onus on the consumer to do their homework before going to a performance. I mean, I would not go to see "The Full Monty" if I didn't want to see the full monty.:eek: I would not go to see Chris Rock, if I didn't want to hear some off color language (actually more than just some!). Unless this performer was a total newcomer (unlikely I would think if it was televised) then people know what kind of an act it is. At the most, I would chalk it up to "how could I be so naive and not have checked this out". If you notice, I started out thinking it might be assault because I thought it was a performer coming out of the blue and doing this, not someone who invited him up to participate in an act - and that's when I changed my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 A, going to the show which specified not suitable for children. B, volunteering to go onstage. Nope. No grounds for complaint. Grounds for being uncomfortable and/or embarassed, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Well if he was my son at 15 (in less than a year!) then I would have done my homework. I think there is an onus on the consumer to do their homework before going to a performance. I mean, I would not go to see "The Full Monty" if I didn't want to see the full monty.:eek: I would not go to see Chris Rock, if I didn't want to hear some off color language (actually more than just some!). Unless this performer was a total newcomer (unlikely I would think if it was televised) then people know what kind of an act it is. At the most, I would chalk it up to "how could I be so naive and not have checked this out". If you notice, I started out thinking it might be assault because I thought it was a performer coming out of the blue and doing this, not someone who invited him up to participate in an act - and that's when I changed my opinion. Okay, but lots of parents don't research. Didn't the OP say in a post that he was there with a friend? How many 15 year olds research? Lack of research don't not mean that someone should be touched in a way they don't want. Ever. And what 15 year old agreeing to participate in an act with a comedian would ever think, "He might kiss me."?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 You know, I understand not pressing charges, but I am wondering about the ethics of audience participation in a case like this, especially since it was nationally televised. What if the participant had been a woman? A woman with an exceptionally jealous husband? Perhaps an abusive husband? What if the participant had been an adult male with a homophobic employer? I do hope this young man has a very strong sense of self because he will get some flack from peers who saw him being kissed by another guy on national television. What if he didn't have a strong sense of self and perhaps some questions about his own se*uality? I understand that the whole thing is artistic license, but it also seems to ride a very fine ethical line. I am also assuming that since it was televised, sooner or later someone is going to point out that the young man is a minor. I would be curious to see what the theater management's response would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I would be curious if this has been part of this comedian's act before. Is he known for pulling stuff like that on volunteers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I'm so sorry this happened to him. :grouphug: IMO most live comedy is seldom appropriate for adults let alone teens and younger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirch Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) You know, I understand not pressing charges, but I am wondering about the ethics of audience participation in a case like this, especially since it was nationally televised. What if the participant had been a woman? A woman with an exceptionally jealous husband? Perhaps an abusive husband? What if the participant had been an adult male with a homophobic employer? I do hope this young man has a very strong sense of self because he will get some flack from peers who saw him being kissed by another guy on national television. What if he didn't have a strong sense of self and perhaps some questions about his own se*uality? I understand that the whole thing is artistic license, but it also seems to ride a very fine ethical line. I am also assuming that since it was televised, sooner or later someone is going to point out that the young man is a minor. I would be curious to see what the theater management's response would be. This occurred to me too. I've been racking my brain trying to remember the details, but I know I've heard about a pretty major story of a man killing someone after a dramatic gay "reveal" on a talk show or something. ETA: Found it. A guy killed a gay friend who revealed a crush on him on the Jenny Jones show. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were similar cases out there involving jealous husbands/wives. Edited September 4, 2011 by Kirch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silliness7 Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Going on stage is consent to have things done with your body that you don't want?? :iagree::iagree: thank you for saying that out loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silliness7 Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Well if he was my son at 15 (in less than a year!) then I would have done my homework. I think there is an onus on the consumer to do their homework before going to a performance. I mean, I would not go to see "The Full Monty" if I didn't want to see the full monty.:eek: I would not go to see Chris Rock, if I didn't want to hear some off color language (actually more than just some!). Unless this performer was a total newcomer (unlikely I would think if it was televised) then people know what kind of an act it is. At the most, I would chalk it up to "how could I be so naive and not have checked this out". If you notice, I started out thinking it might be assault because I thought it was a performer coming out of the blue and doing this, not someone who invited him up to participate in an act - and that's when I changed my opinion. History shows us that performers are continually pushing the bounds of appropriateness. I don't know if "doing your homework" would necessarily be enough to ensure that you don't wind up in the middle of something you didn't want. I'm quite surprised at how many people are putting the burden of what happened on the kid. For all we know he went to a live performance with the equivalent of a PG-13 movie rating warning and got way more than he bargained for. If the kid is upset I think he has every right to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 With so much 'performance art' being commonplace in some areas , I would have taken the warning about unsuitability to heart, and/or tried to find out why it was considered unsuitable. I'm not the type of person to go on stage or want to be part of an act. Two of mine are like me; two are far, far more apt to wish to participate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewellsmommy Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) I don't think the point is that he "deserved" it but he did consent to be a part of the act by going up there. If the show is not appropriate for children it's a good bet that whatever happens on stage is not going to be tame. We just had a busker festival in town and people were often being dragged into the acts. They were hugged and danced with, given props, made props themselves...I didn't see one performance where a volunteer wasn't touched. It's probably why some folks singled out by the performers choose not to join them, because they knew it might entail some touching and other embarrassing stuff. At some point a person is responsible for the pickle they got themselves into. The boy went to the show, the boy got up on stage. And no, there's no comparison to rape because this was not an assault of any sort where the issue of consent is beside the point. It was a stage kiss. That's it. Big deal. He consented to being on stage. He could not have consented to the physical act of the kiss, because there was no knowledge of the act beforehand. That is like saying that by inviting you into my home, your consent demonstrated by entering, gives me some right to do something to you that you didn't know was going to happen. My house, my rules; right? What if you consented to have your child in someone else's home on a play date and they spanked your child at their house. Did you consent to the spanking? ETA: I don't think that should be prosecuted. I just think it is bad form to suggest that someone can consent to something that they could not possibly foresee coming. Unless, the audience is told beforehand that participants who opt to come on stage need to be open to physical touch, then there was no warning and therefore no informed consent. Edited September 4, 2011 by jewellsmommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 He consented to being on stage. He could not have consented to the physical act of the kiss, because there was no knowledge of the act beforehand. That is like saying that by inviting you into my home, your consent demonstrated by entering, gives me some right to do something to you that you didn't know was going to happen. What if you consented to have your child in someone else's home on a play sate and they spanked your child at their house. Did you consent to the spanking? But in a performance, esp. one put on by a comedian, you are consenting to being part of the act - one that is supposedly funny. And nowadays, funny is often raunchy and often embarrassing. If the poster had a warning about adult content. then raunchiness would be assumed to some degree, and raunchiness is embarrassing for many of us - esp. if we are the butt of the raunchy joke (pun intended;)). I'm not saying that I would like it or promote it or wouldn't be embarrassed and even a bit upset if it were myself or my child, but I don't think you would have reason to call the police in this situation. I suppose, that you could try to make a case for defamation of character or pain and suffering due to extreme embarrassment but I think that could go either way and the trial itself would cause even more attention to what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewellsmommy Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 But in a performance, esp. one put on by a comedian, you are consenting to being part of the act - one that is supposedly funny. And nowadays, funny is often raunchy and often embarrassing. If the poster had a warning about adult content. then raunchiness would be assumed to some degree, and raunchiness is embarrassing for many of us - esp. if we are the butt of the raunchy joke (pun intended;)). I'm not saying that I would like it or promote it or wouldn't be embarrassed and even a bit upset if it were myself or my child, but I don't think you would have reason to call the police in this situation. I suppose, that you could try to make a case for defamation of character or pain and suffering due to extreme embarrassment but I think that could go either way and the trial itself would cause even more attention to what happened. I agree that this should not be prosecutable. I'm just saying that being a part of the act does not equal something physical. You could be part of the act without being touched. Even in an adult setting, my assumption would not be that something intimate is going to occur by me agreeing to participate on stage with a performer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsbaby Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I feel bad for the boy! Prosecute? No. Complain? Definitely. I would be furious if I got up on stage and was kissed by someone I didn't know. I have seen A LOT of stand up shows aimed at the 21 and up crowd and have never seen an audience member touched in a sexual way by the comedian!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 :iagree: First, the 15-year old shouldn't have been there in the first place if I read the OP correctly. Second, since this was assumed to be an adult audience by the cast, and the 15-year old agreed to go up on stage, the cast member was performing...and assumed the person receiving the kiss was of age and consenting. I've been to many drama productions in London, and many involved audience participation. Even I, at age 48, living in the US, know enough about what might happen on stage in productions in smaller venues. Perhaps the parents are living under a rock? There's often a reason age limitations exist. I agree. I have been to such performances as well. The OP said: ... that was stated on the posters to be unsuitable for children and was kissed full on the mouth by a performer, should the latter be prosecuted? The local age of consent for sexual contact is 16. The 15yo looks older. Laura The 15 year old went somewhere that clearly stated it was not suitable for children. He decided he was not a child. Why? We don't know. You can't get into a pub in Scotland if you are under 21 once night falls, and pubs are not suitable for children. I seriously doubt any teen (who does not live under a rock) doesn't know that, so where is the disconnect between "not suitable for children" and "it's OK, I'm FIFTEEN"? He consented to being on stage. He could not have consented to the physical act of the kiss, because there was no knowledge of the act beforehand. ETA: I don't think that should be prosecuted. I just think it is bad form to suggest that someone can consent to something that they could not possibly foresee coming. Unless, the audience is told beforehand that participants who opt to come on stage need to be open to physical touch, then there was no warning and therefore no informed consent. I can only agree with your ETA, and I must say, again, having been to many of these types of comedic shows, I have never seen someone just namby pamby brought on stage - often, people are chosen beforehand, if not, there is always someone who gives a quick run down on the side before they actually come up - even if it is the performer themselves with the mic off. I've seen performers have to "cover" for someone saying "oh, this one won't work - he/she has a bad foot" or something ridiculous, and moving on to someone else who will "play the part. There is more to this story. asta ETA: Pubs serve food as well as drink. You can get lunch during the day, but they won't serve you drink if you're underage. After 4 (?) you're not getting in the door if you're not 21. I'm sure some pubs in small villages are the exception, but not in the big cities where I've been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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