Raising Little Shoots Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I am looking into beginning Latin with my children & the whole Classical / Ecclesiastical thing is really throwing me! From what I can gather - no one uses 'Classical' anymore - except when you get to high school?? The main differences are in the vowels. It is pretty easy (?) to learn the classical vowels once the child is older and knows latin well. - But why would you want to? Why would you want to study a language, knowing that you will need to switch a lot of your learning once the child (& parent!) has got to grips with it??? :confused: what am i missing? :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlmom Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I was going to ask this question yesterday. My dd is 7 and we're starting Latin this year and I'm not sure which to use. Latin isn't taught in our school so even if she goes to ps later it won't be an issue. what are some other considerations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Occasionally Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I wish I knew! I'll be watching this thread. Latin's going to be the subject that gives me the most trouble, I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ma23peas Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I am a classical latin fan..I used Minimus/Secundus and Cambridge Latin which all use the classical pronunciation.. In Latin circles, if you're Catholic or going to sing Latin hymns as a vocalist..then you go ecclesiastical...if you're simply studying Latin for the language alone...most use classical. It would be confusing if your child was a classical singer to use the classical pronunciation...but easy to switch, because as you said..it really is just a few letters...I personally, find the classical pronunciation easier..but that is most likely because I took Wheelock's in high school/college and in those cases, it's 100% classical pronunciation. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joules Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 We chose to learn Classical Latin. We are using Latin Alive. I'm not sure the ages of your kids, but I'm pretty sure Latin for Children is Classical, too. I think Ecclesiastical makes sense if you have a religious reason for learning it. And maybe for music? I think the Ecclesiastical pronunciations are used in singing (if you child is a music major, for example.) Neither of those applied to us. Ds is interested in Latin because of the science and word origin applications so we chose Classical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinRTX Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Yes, if your child is a singer go with the Ecclesiastical pronunciation. My daughter learned the Classical and while preparing a song for competition was told by her vocal teacher that she was pronouncing it wrong. I happened to be there to pick her up and had to explain to both of them that there are two correct pronunciations! Of course, she switched to Ecclesiastical because that is the one used in singing. Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elise1mds Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Ecclesiastical is pretty easy to pick up if you need to... heck, I picked it up just attending a few Latin Masses with some friends. We use classical :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I am a classical latin fan..I used Minimus/Secundus and Cambridge Latin which all use the classical pronunciation.. In Latin circles, if you're Catholic or going to sing Latin hymns as a vocalist..then you go ecclesiastical...if you're simply studying Latin for the language alone...most use classical. It would be confusing if your child was a classical singer to use the classical pronunciation...but easy to switch, because as you said..it really is just a few letters...I personally, find the classical pronunciation easier..but that is most likely because I took Wheelock's in high school/college and in those cases, it's 100% classical pronunciation. HTH :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Yes, if your child is a singer go with the Ecclesiastical pronunciation. My daughter learned the Classical and while preparing a song for competition was told by her vocal teacher that she was pronouncing it wrong. I happened to be there to pick her up and had to explain to both of them that there are two correct pronunciations! Of course, she switched to Ecclesiastical because that is the one used in singing. Linda ER is a music major in college, and is required to sing in Latin. He studied Classical Latin in homeschool, but in his college music classes, he has to use Ecclesiastical pronunciation. He really didn't have much trouble making the switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 As I understand it too, classical for just learning it. Search out that post with Bill on it that was about Latin. This is where I think the distinctions were best presented and discussed currently. I went with Latin for Children too ... based on the classical pronounciation, grammar, and translation. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smillard00 Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 The differences between the two are small and it's easy to make the transition if you have to. It's not really a spoken language, so it probably doesn't matter as much how you pronounce it as long as you can read it and write it. My two reasons for Ecclesiastical are that it sounds prettier when you say it and we sing in Latin sometimes, so we use Ecclesiastical. I also think if you're going to add on a modern language later, the Ecclesiastical pronunciation might be closer to what you will learn there. I'm thinking back to my French days and that would be the case there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I went with Ecclesiastical because it's what Latin Christiana uses, and LC has DVD's so I didn't have to learn it so much myself. That's a lame reason, but it's the truth. Sometimes you have to do what you'll actually make happen, not what theoretically you should do. As it has turned out, though, I think that it was the best choice. DD loves to sing, and all of her Latin choral music is ecclesiastical. Also, Latin tends to be written rather than spoken, so it's more forgiving in the pronounciation area. Now if we had decided to study Greek, it would have been more difficult as there is classical Greek, koina Greek, and modern Greek, and modern Greek is actually spoken by a lot of people :). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I teach Classical. We are not religious and have no need for Ecclesiastical at this point. It's not just the vowels. The 'v' makes a w sound in classical as well. We did Minimus/Minimus Secundus. Latin for Children A, B, C. My oldest is moving on to Weelocks in the fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 LfC has both pronunciation methods available. Dr. Parrin even does both pronunciations in the DVD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 We chose ecclesiastical because I don't want to sound like Elmer Fudd. Ecclesiastical is elegant and beautiful and I find value in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 We worship and pray at home in Latin (as well as English), and dd8 sings Latin in our choir. Nevertheless, we study Latin with the classical ("American Scholastic") pronunciation. It's really not difficult for a child to adjust the pronunciation to the context. Besides, folks in our parish seem to use Texan Latin pronunciation anyway, rather than either of the pronunciations mentioned here. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Besides, folks in our parish seem to use Texan Latin pronunciation anyway, rather than either of the pronunciations mentioned here. :) LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raising Little Shoots Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 thank you everyone for your thoughts. So - Ecclesiastical is prettier Ecclesiastical would be more helpful for modern languages??? I am going to try to find the thread that was recommended... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 We chose ecclesiastical because I don't want to sound like Elmer Fudd. Ecclesiastical is elegant and beautiful and I find value in that. :iagree: I could not handle "Way-nee, wee-dee, wee-kee." Nope. Ecclesiastical here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 I am looking into beginning Latin with my children & the whole Classical / Ecclesiastical thing is really throwing me! From what I can gather - no one uses 'Classical' anymore - except when you get to high school?? The main differences are in the vowels. It is pretty easy (?) to learn the classical vowels once the child is older and knows latin well. - But why would you want to? Why would you want to study a language, knowing that you will need to switch a lot of your learning once the child (& parent!) has got to grips with it??? :confused: what am i missing? :001_huh: 1dd is a classics major - latin is her favorite language. she absolutely despises church latin, I doubt I could explain it. part of her course of study was to read western civilization foundational works in the orginal latin - you need classical latin to read them. if you study classical latin, you can easily read/write in ecclesiastical latin, but you cannot do the reverse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 1dd is a classics major - latin is her favorite language. she absolutely despises church latin, I doubt I could explain it. part of her course of study was to read western civilization foundational works in the orginal latin - you need classical latin to read them.if you study classical latin, you can easily read/write in ecclesiastical latin, but you cannot do the reverse. How can that be if it is just a pronunciation issue? I have been googling the difference between classical and ecclesiastical latin this last week and the only difference I'm coming up with is pronunciation. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whereneverever Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 How can that be if it is just a pronunciation issue? I have been googling the difference between classical and ecclesiastical latin this last week and the only difference I'm coming up with is pronunciation. Lisa :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raising Little Shoots Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 bumping this back up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen in PA Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 I teach Classical. We are not religious and have no need for Ecclesiastical at this point. It's not just the vowels. The 'v' makes a w sound in classical as well. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Since this topic arrived, I did some extra reading. I wanted to make sure that my daughter would meet her list of wants with a resource. As I understand it, the difference between ecclesiastical and classic Latin is like British and American English. There are acceptable grammar, sytax, and vocabulary for each. I suppose I always thought of the classical Latin as our everyday speech - the Latin that you would find in conversation. While the Vulgate would be more ecclesiastical because it is the "proper". I am summarizing from several discussions that I have found on higher education forums. So, other than pronounciation, I supposed that I concluded that ecclesiastical is the formal way of writing while classical is the actual spoken language too. Truly, I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 How can that be if it is just a pronunciation issue? I have been googling the difference between classical and ecclesiastical latin this last week and the only difference I'm coming up with is pronunciation. Vowel length, which is the crux of the difference, is very important in the reading (or writing!) of Latin poetry. So while the only difference may be pronunciation, that difference in pronunciation will hit you in the face when/if you get to the point of studying Latin poetry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 How can that be if it is just a pronunciation issue? I have been googling the difference between classical and ecclesiastical latin this last week and the only difference I'm coming up with is pronunciation. Lisa The difference between classical and ecclesiastical is indeed just pronunciation. I think what the OP was getting at was that most Christian latin is from the medieval period, not the Classical age. Medieval latin is somewhat different from Classical latin, as the language has begun the slide to the Romantic languages. Usage is less inflected, prepositional phrases are used more, and you generally don't see the monstrously long sentences of, say, Cicero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Vowel length, which is the crux of the difference, is very important in the reading (or writing!) of Latin poetry. So while the only difference may be pronunciation, that difference in pronunciation will hit you in the face when/if you get to the point of studying Latin poetry. The difference between classical and ecclesiastical is indeed just pronunciation. I think what the OP was getting at was that most Christian latin is from the medieval period, not the Classical age. Medieval latin is somewhat different from Classical latin, as the language has begun the slide to the Romantic languages. Usage is less inflected, prepositional phrases are used more, and you generally don't see the monstrously long sentences of, say, Cicero. Okay, thanks. I'm not trying to be difficult here, but rather hoping to understand. I haven't decided whether we will go forward with Latin since we've already invested a significant amount of time in Spanish. If we do begin Latin, I'm strongly leaning towards the Memoria Press materials, and I've had a number of people IRL tell me not to do that because it is Ecclesiastical. I feel like I'm missing something in the differences of Ecclesiastical and Classical Latin since the only explanation I've heard is pronunciation differences up until now. I'm still left with the impression that the differences are small, but sometimes it's hard to fully understand something until you've experienced it. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Okay, thanks. I'm not trying to be difficult here, but rather hoping to understand. I haven't decided whether we will go forward with Latin since we've already invested a significant amount of time in Spanish. If we do begin Latin, I'm strongly leaning towards the Memoria Press materials, and I've had a number of people IRL tell me not to do that because it is Ecclesiastical. Then they misunderstand. The MP materials are not teaching medieval Latin ;). Henle (which is not published by MP but is used in their sequence) will still lead to reading Caesar and Cicero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomen Nescio Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 I recommend the classical pronunciation, because it maximizes backwards compatibility. You can still understand ecclesiastical Latin, but you also learn the pronunciation that is key to the appreciation of classical verse. If you started with ecclesiastical Latin, you'd have to go back and re-learn a lot of things, and many people find that daunting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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