Latin - Classical or Ecclesiastical?

[Raising Little Shoots]

I am looking into beginning Latin with my children & the whole Classical / Ecclesiastical thing is really throwing me!

 

From what I can gather -

no one uses 'Classical' anymore - except when you get to high school??

 

The main differences are in the vowels. It is pretty easy (?) to learn the classical vowels once the child is older and knows latin well. - But why would you want to? Why would you want to study a language, knowing that you will need to switch a lot of your learning once the child (& parent!) has got to grips with it???

:confused:

 

what am i missing? :001_huh:

[jlmom]

I was going to ask this question yesterday. My dd is 7 and we're starting Latin this year and I'm not sure which to use. Latin isn't taught in our school so even if she goes to ps later it won't be an issue. what are some other considerations?

[Occasionally]

I wish I knew! I'll be watching this thread. Latin's going to be the subject that gives me the most trouble, I'm afraid.

[ma23peas]

I am a classical latin fan..I used Minimus/Secundus and Cambridge Latin which all use the classical pronunciation..

 

In Latin circles, if you're Catholic or going to sing Latin hymns as a vocalist..then you go ecclesiastical...if you're simply studying Latin for the language alone...most use classical. It would be confusing if your child was a classical singer to use the classical pronunciation...but easy to switch, because as you said..it really is just a few letters...I personally, find the classical pronunciation easier..but that is most likely because I took Wheelock's in high school/college and in those cases, it's 100% classical pronunciation.

 

HTH

[Joules]

We chose to learn Classical Latin. We are using Latin Alive. I'm not sure the ages of your kids, but I'm pretty sure Latin for Children is Classical, too. I think Ecclesiastical makes sense if you have a religious reason for learning it. And maybe for music? I think the Ecclesiastical pronunciations are used in singing (if you child is a music major, for example.) Neither of those applied to us. Ds is interested in Latin because of the science and word origin applications so we chose Classical.

[LinRTX]

Yes, if your child is a singer go with the Ecclesiastical pronunciation. My daughter learned the Classical and while preparing a song for competition was told by her vocal teacher that she was pronouncing it wrong. I happened to be there to pick her up and had to explain to both of them that there are two correct pronunciations! Of course, she switched to Ecclesiastical because that is the one used in singing.

 

Linda

[elise1mds]

Ecclesiastical is pretty easy to pick up if you need to... heck, I picked it up just attending a few Latin Masses with some friends. We use classical :)

[ereks mom]

I am a classical latin fan..I used Minimus/Secundus and Cambridge Latin which all use the classical pronunciation..

 

In Latin circles, if you're Catholic or going to sing Latin hymns as a vocalist..then you go ecclesiastical...if you're simply studying Latin for the language alone...most use classical. It would be confusing if your child was a classical singer to use the classical pronunciation...but easy to switch, because as you said..it really is just a few letters...I personally, find the classical pronunciation easier..but that is most likely because I took Wheelock's in high school/college and in those cases, it's 100% classical pronunciation.

 

HTH

 

:iagree:

[ereks mom]

Yes, if your child is a singer go with the Ecclesiastical pronunciation. My daughter learned the Classical and while preparing a song for competition was told by her vocal teacher that she was pronouncing it wrong. I happened to be there to pick her up and had to explain to both of them that there are two correct pronunciations! Of course, she switched to Ecclesiastical because that is the one used in singing.

 

Linda

 

ER is a music major in college, and is required to sing in Latin. He studied Classical Latin in homeschool, but in his college music classes, he has to use Ecclesiastical pronunciation. He really didn't have much trouble making the switch.

[ChrissySC]

As I understand it too, classical for just learning it. Search out that post with Bill on it that was about Latin. This is where I think the distinctions were best presented and discussed currently.

 

I went with Latin for Children too ... based on the classical pronounciation, grammar, and translation. :)

[smillard00]

The differences between the two are small and it's easy to make the transition if you have to. It's not really a spoken language, so it probably doesn't matter as much how you pronounce it as long as you can read it and write it. My two reasons for Ecclesiastical are that it sounds prettier when you say it and we sing in Latin sometimes, so we use Ecclesiastical. I also think if you're going to add on a modern language later, the Ecclesiastical pronunciation might be closer to what you will learn there. I'm thinking back to my French days and that would be the case there.

[Carol in Cal.]

I went with Ecclesiastical because it's what Latin Christiana uses, and LC has DVD's so I didn't have to learn it so much myself. That's a lame reason, but it's the truth. Sometimes you have to do what you'll actually make happen, not what theoretically you should do.

 

As it has turned out, though, I think that it was the best choice. DD loves to sing, and all of her Latin choral music is ecclesiastical. Also, Latin tends to be written rather than spoken, so it's more forgiving in the pronounciation area.

 

Now if we had decided to study Greek, it would have been more difficult as there is classical Greek, koina Greek, and modern Greek, and modern Greek is actually spoken by a lot of people :).

[Desert Rat]

I teach Classical. We are not religious and have no need for Ecclesiastical at this point. It's not just the vowels. The 'v' makes a w sound in classical as well.

We did Minimus/Minimus Secundus. Latin for Children A, B, C. My oldest is moving on to Weelocks in the fall.

[Desert Rat]

LfC has both pronunciation methods available. Dr. Parrin even does both pronunciations in the DVD.

[Sputterduck]

We chose ecclesiastical because I don't want to sound like Elmer Fudd.

 

Ecclesiastical is elegant and beautiful and I find value in that.

[Violet Crown]

We worship and pray at home in Latin (as well as English), and dd8 sings Latin in our choir. Nevertheless, we study Latin with the classical ("American Scholastic") pronunciation. It's really not difficult for a child to adjust the pronunciation to the context.

 

Besides, folks in our parish seem to use Texan Latin pronunciation anyway, rather than either of the pronunciations mentioned here. :)

[Sputterduck]

Besides, folks in our parish seem to use Texan Latin pronunciation anyway, rather than either of the pronunciations mentioned here. :)

 

 

LOL!

[Raising Little Shoots]

thank you everyone for your thoughts.

 

So - Ecclesiastical is prettier

 

Ecclesiastical would be more helpful for modern languages???

 

I am going to try to find the thread that was recommended...

[Mommy22alyns]

We chose ecclesiastical because I don't want to sound like Elmer Fudd.

 

Ecclesiastical is elegant and beautiful and I find value in that.

 

 

 

:iagree: I could not handle "Way-nee, wee-dee, wee-kee." Nope. Ecclesiastical here!

[gardenmom5]

I am looking into beginning Latin with my children & the whole Classical / Ecclesiastical thing is really throwing me!

 

From what I can gather -

no one uses 'Classical' anymore - except when you get to high school??

 

The main differences are in the vowels. It is pretty easy (?) to learn the classical vowels once the child is older and knows latin well. - But why would you want to? Why would you want to study a language, knowing that you will need to switch a lot of your learning once the child (& parent!) has got to grips with it???

:confused:

 

what am i missing? :001_huh:

1dd is a classics major - latin is her favorite language. she absolutely despises church latin, I doubt I could explain it. part of her course of study was to read western civilization foundational works in the orginal latin - you need classical latin to read them.

if you study classical latin, you can easily read/write in ecclesiastical latin, but you cannot do the reverse.

[Mom0012]

1dd is a classics major - latin is her favorite language. she absolutely despises church latin, I doubt I could explain it. part of her course of study was to read western civilization foundational works in the orginal latin - you need classical latin to read them.

if you study classical latin, you can easily read/write in ecclesiastical latin, but you cannot do the reverse.

 

How can that be if it is just a pronunciation issue? I have been googling the difference between classical and ecclesiastical latin this last week and the only difference I'm coming up with is pronunciation.

 

Lisa

[Whereneverever]

How can that be if it is just a pronunciation issue? I have been googling the difference between classical and ecclesiastical latin this last week and the only difference I'm coming up with is pronunciation.

 

Lisa

:iagree:

[Raising Little Shoots]

bumping this back up...

[Jen in PA]

I teach Classical. We are not religious and have no need for Ecclesiastical at this point. It's not just the vowels. The 'v' makes a w sound in classical as well.

 

 

:iagree:

[ChrissySC]

Since this topic arrived, I did some extra reading. I wanted to make sure that my daughter would meet her list of wants with a resource.

 

As I understand it, the difference between ecclesiastical and classic Latin is like British and American English.

 

There are acceptable grammar, sytax, and vocabulary for each. I suppose I always thought of the classical Latin as our everyday speech - the Latin that you would find in conversation. While the Vulgate would be more ecclesiastical because it is the "proper".

 

I am summarizing from several discussions that I have found on higher education forums. So, other than pronounciation, I supposed that I concluded that ecclesiastical is the formal way of writing while classical is the actual spoken language too.

 

Truly, I don't know.

[Violet Crown]

How can that be if it is just a pronunciation issue? I have been googling the difference between classical and ecclesiastical latin this last week and the only difference I'm coming up with is pronunciation.

 

Vowel length, which is the crux of the difference, is very important in the reading (or writing!) of Latin poetry. So while the only difference may be pronunciation, that difference in pronunciation will hit you in the face when/if you get to the point of studying Latin poetry.

How can that be if it is just a pronunciation issue? I have been googling the difference between classical and ecclesiastical latin this last week and the only difference I'm coming up with is pronunciation.

 

Lisa

 

The difference between classical and ecclesiastical is indeed just pronunciation.

 

I think what the OP was getting at was that most Christian latin is from the medieval period, not the Classical age. Medieval latin is somewhat different from Classical latin, as the language has begun the slide to the Romantic languages. Usage is less inflected, prepositional phrases are used more, and you generally don't see the monstrously long sentences of, say, Cicero.

[Mom0012]

Vowel length, which is the crux of the difference, is very important in the reading (or writing!) of Latin poetry. So while the only difference may be pronunciation, that difference in pronunciation will hit you in the face when/if you get to the point of studying Latin poetry.

 

The difference between classical and ecclesiastical is indeed just pronunciation.

 

I think what the OP was getting at was that most Christian latin is from the medieval period, not the Classical age. Medieval latin is somewhat different from Classical latin, as the language has begun the slide to the Romantic languages. Usage is less inflected, prepositional phrases are used more, and you generally don't see the monstrously long sentences of, say, Cicero.

 

Okay, thanks. I'm not trying to be difficult here, but rather hoping to understand. I haven't decided whether we will go forward with Latin since we've already invested a significant amount of time in Spanish. If we do begin Latin, I'm strongly leaning towards the Memoria Press materials, and I've had a number of people IRL tell me not to do that because it is Ecclesiastical. I feel like I'm missing something in the differences of Ecclesiastical and Classical Latin since the only explanation I've heard is pronunciation differences up until now. I'm still left with the impression that the differences are small, but sometimes it's hard to fully understand something until you've experienced it.

 

Lisa

[wapiti]

Okay, thanks. I'm not trying to be difficult here, but rather hoping to understand. I haven't decided whether we will go forward with Latin since we've already invested a significant amount of time in Spanish. If we do begin Latin, I'm strongly leaning towards the Memoria Press materials, and I've had a number of people IRL tell me not to do that because it is Ecclesiastical.

 

Then they misunderstand. The MP materials are not teaching medieval Latin ;). Henle (which is not published by MP but is used in their sequence) will still lead to reading Caesar and Cicero.

[Nomen Nescio]

I recommend the classical pronunciation, because it maximizes backwards compatibility. You can still understand ecclesiastical Latin, but you also learn the pronunciation that is key to the appreciation of classical verse. If you started with ecclesiastical Latin, you'd have to go back and re-learn a lot of things, and many people find that daunting.