McD's Forcing "Healthier" Happy Meals?

[*lifeoftheparty*]

On another board I frequent there is a similar discussion going on. What I find really amusing though is that, if all the posters are to be believed, nobody ever actually eats at McD's. How do they make so much money??? FTR, we DO eat there about 2-3 times a month. I like McD's in Germany, because, being a nanny state and all, they (the gov't) have really high standards for food services and the food at McD's actually tastes good. In the States, I'd rather go to Wendy's. OMG, I could so eat some Wendy's fries with a Frosty right now! I haven't had Wendy's in over 2 years! Their mandarin chicken salad is my FAVORITE (with fries and a Frosty of course).

 

Their largest clientele is going to be poor inner city or rural folks.... they don't always have the internet and if they do, you can bet they aren't frequenting classical education boards and other forums that specialize in the luxuries of suburbia... just a thought.

[justasque]

What I'm saying is that Cass is part of a movement to alter people's choices (such as McDonald's attempting to make it look like they are responding to consumer demand for "healthier" food). You think it's your choice, right? Apple or fries, both or none. But, in a little while, your choices will be altered again. And again. And again. Just tweaked a little at a time until we arrive at the ultimate destination. Cass' choice for you. And you thought the entire time that you were choosing when actually your choices were preselected for you (eliminating all the "bad" choices so you only have what they determine to be "good" choices to pick from).

 

ETA: Don't think of the choices right in front of your face, think of the framework of choice and how they are being selected for you.

 

cddrumm, I'm understanding your concerns a bit more, but I still don't get why you think this particular guy has the power to make the changes you're suggesting. Why would McDonalds, a world-wide company, let this particular guy make menu decisions for them? And isn't it the case that someone, somewhere, has to decide what is on the menu and what isn't - if it's not him, it's someone else, right? And if the menu changes enough that folks don't care for it anymore (even if it changes gradually), won't the company's bottom line reflect that? At which point they can either change back or go out of business - isn't that the way capitalism is supposed to work? Aren't there are plenty of mom-and-pop places and small chains that will jump to fill a need McD's isn't covering, if it comes to that? (Thanks for your patience with my struggle to understand your point.)

 

~~~~~~

 

I taught my kids early on that we like some restaurants because they have good food, but that some restaurants need to include a toy in order to get you to buy the food, because you probably would choose somewhere else if you were choosing on taste alone. The fact that a toy is included is an indication that the food probably isn't good enough to stand on its own. Since I refuse to buy the meal with the toy, thus taking that aspect out of the decision process, they choose our local mom-and-pop burger joint every time, hands-down. Others must have been doing the same, because the McD's they built across the street from the mom-and-pop closed a few years later.

 

Also, when my kids were younger, I did a nutritional analysis, and found that a bowl of a sensible breakfast cereal with milk, plus a glass of juice, was nutritionally superior to a McD's meal, so when I wanted a quick meal, we'd go with the cereal.

 

On the rare occasion that I go into a McD's (usually when I'm going along with a group's decision, maybe 2-3 times a year, typically when we're on the road), I enjoy the yogurt parfait (yogurt and berries) and the oatmeal with fruit and nuts (not sure if they're still doing that - it was being tested in Maryland - really good).

[athomemom]

No one is sneaking anything into anything, which is exactly my point. They haven't started the switch to a combo apple/fries yet--begins in September per the article. This is advance publicity (it was also in our local paper today). Currently you can request either apples or fries. Then, apparently, you may have the option of a combo of fries and apples and likely can request not to have one or the other, as far as I can tell. Who knows, perhaps they will offer an option of all fries, all apples or the combo, like they currently offer a variety of drinks.

 

There are no tractor beams forcing your car to pull into a McD. No one will throw themselves in front of your car and try to stuff apples down your kids' throats while pulling money out of your wallet as you try to drive away if you order fries. You absolutely have a say---by choosing to drive up to a particular store, by reading the menu and then choosing what to purchase or not purchase, and even by driving away if there's nothing there you want. Same as it ever was. That's the way retail works. This really isn't a grand secret conspiracy to deprive people of french fries--it's a marketing decision. It will stay or change based on what people purchase because it is about the bottom line, not altruism. McD obviously thinks this will sell more Happy Meals and give them a greater market share.

 

I honestly can't figure out why you have such a beef with what I said? Sorry if I offended you. My whole point is that I should be able to continue what has been on the menu all along. I know the apples are there, if I choose to request them. I can choose and that IS the whole point. They in a sense are choosing for me with this new change.

[justasque]

My whole point is that I should be able to continue what has been on the menu all along.

 

Why? I don't understand this. Restaurants change their menus now and again. My favorite one has discontinued the crab cakes I used to get. I'm bummed, but I don't think I had/have any right to the crab cakes. It was something they chose to offer in the past; now they're offering something different. A restaurant can't offer everything they've ever offered, always, in perpetuity. And in the case of McD's, they're not doing away with the french fries. You can still get exactly what you've gotten before.

 

(They were *really* good crab cakes!)

[athomemom]

Why? I don't understand this. Restaurants change their menus now and again. My favorite one has discontinued the crab cakes I used to get. I'm bummed, but I don't think I had/have any right to the crab cakes. It was something they chose to offer in the past; now they're offering something different. A restaurant can't offer everything they've ever offered, always, in perpetuity. And in the case of McD's, they're not doing away with the french fries. You can still get exactly what you've gotten before.

 

(They were *really* good crab cakes!)

 

My point is that apples are already on the menu. So that choice is already available.

[Crissy]

My whole point is that I should be able to continue what has been on the menu all along.

 

As a business owner, I disagree with this statement.

I reserve the right to offer whatever services I find most beneficial to my small company.

You have the right to find another place to serve you if you no longer care for the way I do business.

[athomemom]

As a business owner, I disagree with this statement.

I reserve the right to offer whatever services I find most beneficial to my small company.

You have the right to find another place to serve you if you no longer care for the way I do business.

 

Please see the above statement that I made.

[Aelwydd]

Please see the above statement that I made.

 

So, you basically feel entitled to a default Happy Meal that only includes french fires?

[athomemom]

So, you basically feel entitled to a default Happy Meal that only includes french fires?

 

No, I think that apples are already on the menu and I ALREADY have the choice between apples and fries. So, how is McD's really changing anything, if I still have a choice?

[RahRah]

I used to love McD's french fries, but they are as disgusting as the rest of the menu since they changed the recipe (or did they change the type of fat they cook them in?). And yes, I know the FF aren't healthy either way, but it's not as though I was ever on a steady diet of them. :tongue_smilie:

 

McD's fries were great long ago - when they were cooked in beef tallow!

[Aelwydd]

No, I think that apples are already on the menu and I ALREADY have the choice between apples and fries. So, how is McD's really changing anything, if I still have a choice?

 

 

 

McD's changing Happy Meals to include apples is no more taking away your choice then when you sit down at a restaurant, and are told that now the #3 Special comes with a side salad, with substitutions available.

 

It's a menu change. McD's have had many before, and will continue to have them in the future. There was a time when McD's didn't offer chicken nuggets or a toy (made in China), either.

[Shawna in Texas]

No, I think that apples are already on the menu and I ALREADY have the choice between apples and fries. So, how is McD's really changing anything, if I still have a choice?

 

Well, I'm assuming they're doing it for the good press.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

No, I think that apples are already on the menu and I ALREADY have the choice between apples and fries. So, how is McD's really changing anything, if I still have a choice?

 

This isn't about you. If you want something to be exactly the way you want it all the time, then start your own business. The business can do whatever it wants, it does not have to take what you want into consideration. If you don't like it, don't go there.

 

I don't like change. I love Disney World. I don't want them to ever get rid of any of their rides in order to upgrade with new stuff. I want to have the option to ride all the rides they have ever had or have right now. Bring back River Country, dangit!! They have plenty of land to do this, so WHY don't they. Because it's their business and they can do whatever they want, according to what works for them. They are under no obligation to cater to my every whim....

[athomemom]

You all can continue the discussion without me. Apparently, I don't need an opinion. I realize I (yeah, it's all about me) can choose.

[RahRah]

No, I think that apples are already on the menu and I ALREADY have the choice between apples and fries. So, how is McD's really changing anything, if I still have a choice?

 

They're downsizing both the french fries and the apples, eliminating the dipping caramel for the apples - thus, this is a nice, neat, PC way to actually provide less for your money than before, while trumpeting how wonderful they are for looking out for the health of kids and getting some of their sharpest critics to now say 'look what they're doing, it's a step in the right direction!' to quell their criticism and turn it around to positive, free press!

[KarenNC]

I honestly can't figure out why you have such a beef with what I said? Sorry if I offended you. My whole point is that I should be able to continue what has been on the menu all along. I know the apples are there, if I choose to request them. I can choose and that IS the whole point. They in a sense are choosing for me with this new change.

 

I am not offended, I just don't see the logic behind the position that you (or anyone) will no longer have a choice. Why do you think you can't continue to get a burger and fries (and nothing else), if that's what you want? They certainly aren't likely to quit making them (even if they did, I find it hard to imagine there are not plenty of other places ready to provide them to you, including a toy). The fries are there and you can choose to request them. The small burger and small fries and small drink are even all on the dollar menu.

 

"All along" is also a bit subjective. Happy meals, for instance, didn't exist until the late 70s and their makeup has changed over the years. As I said, it's a marketing decision that they think will sell more Happy Meals. If it doesn't, it will not continue, as with many options that have been tried, failed and disappeared.

[pqr]

They're downsizing both the french fries and the apples, eliminating the dipping caramel for the apples - thus, this is a nice, neat, PC way to actually provide less for your money than before, while trumpeting how wonderful they are for looking out for the health of kids and getting some of their sharpest critics to now say 'look what they're doing, it's a step in the right direction!' to quell their criticism and turn it around to positive, free press!

 

Exactly!.....but, given that they also now appear to have buckled under to the shrill yapping crowd who will tell everyone else how to raise their children, I think that McD's needs a special on boneless boiled chicken.

Edited July 27, 2011 by pqr

[BabyBre]

I wonder if you could request that you receive 2 portions of apple slices but no fries.

 

 

I want to know if you could request 2 portions of fries but no apples.

[Pretty in Pink]

I want to know if you could request 2 portions of fries but no apples.

 

I think that was already covered somewhere in this thread and I believe the answer was yes on both counts. :001_smile:

 

The day McDonald's takes fries off the menu is the day I eat crow. Good grief.

[mrs.m]

I want to know if you could request 2 portions of fries but no apples.

 

Just don't get the happy meal. Order a cheeseburger or nuggets and a small fry with a small drink.

 

I personally think it is never worth the toy.

[justamouse]

Because NO ONE EXPECTS THE NUTRITION INQUISITION!!!

 

 

I wish I had time to photoshop a Happy Meal in his hands! :lol:

 

 

:lol:*gasp* :lol: *gasp*:lol:

 

OMG, I was just wondering what y'all were talking about and landed on that.

 

I need to read it again, that was too flipping funny.:lol::lol:

[Paige]

No one is sneaking anything into anything, which is exactly my point. They haven't started the switch to a combo apple/fries yet--begins in September per the article. This is advance publicity (it was also in our local paper today). Currently you can request either apples or fries. Then, apparently, you may have the option of a combo of fries and apples and likely can request not to have one or the other, as far as I can tell. Who knows, perhaps they will offer an option of all fries, all apples or the combo, like they currently offer a variety of drinks.

 

This is not true. They have been doing this "sneakily" for at least 3 months in my area with no notice. Honestly, that was my main irritation on reading the article. I felt that we had been deceived because they have been rolling out the menu change, not informing the customer in any way- not on the menu, not orally when you place the order. I didn't even realize they had eliminated the caramel sauce! I just thought that we had bad service and they left it out accidentally. Now, I know that this has not been random bad service, but a corporate choice to not give us what we ordered and expected and to deliberately not inform the customers in the test market. I bet they were tracking how many people complained about wrong orders for months. I'm sure most people don't go often and assumed it was a random mistake not worth complaining about each time. So, if a customer goes in and orders menu item A (apples only, caramel sauce expected as there is no notice it won't be given and it is still called "apple dippers" if there's no caramel, there's no dipping), and customer receives, with no notice, smaller apples and fries, no caramel sauce, then that customer, IMO, is being deliberately misled. If they had informed us in the test market of what was going on before I ordered, then I wouldn't be as irritated.

[Aelwydd]

:lol:*gasp* :lol: *gasp*:lol:

 

OMG, I was just wondering what y'all were talking about and landed on that.

 

I need to read it again, that was too flipping funny.:lol::lol:

 

That guy should really be holding a packet of apples in one hand and a happy meal in the other. :)

[cdrumm4448]

Isn't that what successful marketing is? A nudge?

 

 

No.

[cdrumm4448]

:lol:

 

You should write books. That was totally great.

 

I do wish the Ignore function worked for quotes as well. Quite a handy little tool.

[cdrumm4448]

cddrumm, I'm understanding your concerns a bit more, but I still don't get why you think this particular guy has the power to make the changes you're suggesting. Why would McDonalds, a world-wide company, let this particular guy make menu decisions for them? And isn't it the case that someone, somewhere, has to decide what is on the menu and what isn't - if it's not him, it's someone else, right? And if the menu changes enough that folks don't care for it anymore (even if it changes gradually), won't the company's bottom line reflect that? At which point they can either change back or go out of business - isn't that the way capitalism is supposed to work? Aren't there are plenty of mom-and-pop places and small chains that will jump to fill a need McD's isn't covering, if it comes to that? (Thanks for your patience with my struggle to understand your point.)

 

~~~~~~

 

I taught my kids early on that we like some restaurants because they have good food, but that some restaurants need to include a toy in order to get you to buy the food, because you probably would choose somewhere else if you were choosing on taste alone. The fact that a toy is included is an indication that the food probably isn't good enough to stand on its own. Since I refuse to buy the meal with the toy, thus taking that aspect out of the decision process, they choose our local mom-and-pop burger joint every time, hands-down. Others must have been doing the same, because the McD's they built across the street from the mom-and-pop closed a few years later.

 

Also, when my kids were younger, I did a nutritional analysis, and found that a bowl of a sensible breakfast cereal with milk, plus a glass of juice, was nutritionally superior to a McD's meal, so when I wanted a quick meal, we'd go with the cereal.

 

On the rare occasion that I go into a McD's (usually when I'm going along with a group's decision, maybe 2-3 times a year, typically when we're on the road), I enjoy the yogurt parfait (yogurt and berries) and the oatmeal with fruit and nuts (not sure if they're still doing that - it was being tested in Maryland - really good).

 

Read the book. Only get it from the library because I'd hate for Cass to benefit from the book purchase if you bought it.

[cdrumm4448]

Exactly!.....but, given that they also now appear to have buckled under to the shrill yapping crowd who will tell everyone else how to raise their children, I think that McD's needs a special on boneless boiled chicken.

 

:001_smile:

[cdrumm4448]

What many here are absolutely refusing to grasp is that there are people out there (Cass being one of them) who want to preselect your available choices for you. Even if they are what he considers to be the better or healthier choice, people do not need his services. He influences not only our current administration, but is working to influence private industry.

 

But, that is the main difference between ideologies in this thread. I don't give a rap what you feed your children, how you raise them, or anything else related to your parental decisions. The opposing ideology wants to control everyone's choices (no "bad" things for you!) so we all live in their version of paradise. Not interested. I'll take my independent, occasional junk-food filled life anytime.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

cdrumm, I'm not refusing to recognize that Cass Sunstein is of the devil. I know his agenda and it sucks.

 

However, it doesn't really scare me or affect me, as I have long since "gone Galt" on many aspects of society and I wouldn't hesitate to go further. I never just take what is handed to me, and I never will. With that mindset firmly in place (and it was installed by my Dad before I was 10 years old, so it is probably permanent), I will never be a victim of the culture. The tighter the squeeze, the less I participate.

 

Don't you realize that most homeschoolers fit that description on some level, at least, simply because we have opted out of the public school system? Don't you realize how rare that is, to even question whether or not our children will go to school and to claim the right to make that decision?

 

You are not talking with sheeple. We all have varying lines in the sand, and the actions of a restaurant that I don't even frequent have nothing to do with my line in the sand.

[sunflowerlady]

I do wish the Ignore function worked for quotes as well. Quite a handy little tool.

 

I am sorry if I offended you somehow.:confused:My apologies. I was just responding to a post I thought was funny. Now I know why I don't post here much. Back to lurkdom for me.

[Guest IdahoMtnMom]

I have one kid that orders apples and one who orders fries. We go maybe once every two months. When I go to McDonalds, I know it is not healthy. I know what I am getting. I think most people do... and I agree that the choices should be left to the consumer/parents. If I wanted my kids to eat health 100% of the time, I wouldn't take them to McDonalds at all.

[Aelwydd]

I do wish the Ignore function worked for quotes as well. Quite a handy little tool.

 

That sounds so frustrating for you.

 

I would lobby WTM to modify the Ignore Fuction to include quotes, but I'm afraid I'd then be forcing you to to avoid reading this post this via someone else's quote.

 

Alas, the sacrifices we must make for our freedom. :patriot:

[Spy Car]

That sounds so frustrating for you.

 

I would lobby WTM to modify the Ignore Fuction to include quotes, but I'm afraid I'd then be forcing you to to avoid reading this post this via someone else's quote.

 

Alas, the sacrifices we must make for our freedom. :patriot:

 

Just making it extra easy :D

 

Bill

[KungFuPanda]

So, you basically feel entitled to a default Happy Meal that only includes french fires?

 

 

I take back everything I said. This IS dangerous!!!! My son can't be trusted with regular fire, much less French Fire! I change my vote. I want fries only and no snooty pyrotechnics.

 

KFP

[Aelwydd]

I take back everything I said. This IS dangerous!!!! My son can't be trusted with regular fire, much less French Fire! I change my vote. I want fries only and no snooty pyrotechnics.

 

KFP

 

 

:lol::lol: Better French Fires than Freedom Fires, don't you think?

Edited July 28, 2011 by Aelwydd

[Aelwydd]

Just making it extra easy :D

 

Bill

 

 

You actually made me bust out laughing! :rofl:

[LibraryLover]

:lol:Chortle (Elitist word if there ever was one.) Do it!!

 

That would be so fantastic.

 

 

I wish I had time to photoshop a Happy Meal in his hands! :lol:

[melissel]

I am sorry if I offended you somehow.:confused:My apologies. I was just responding to a post I thought was funny. Now I know why I don't post here much. Back to lurkdom for me.

 

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure it wasn't you that offended her. Don't go back to lurking over it! :grouphug:

[nmoira]

What many here are absolutely refusing to grasp is that there are people out there (Cass being one of them) who want to preselect your available choices for you. Even if they are what he considers to be the better or healthier choice, people do not need his services. He influences not only our current administration, but is working to influence private industry.

Aren't "available choices" by definition pre-selected? It's not like you've ever been able to walk into a McDonald's and build your own Happy Meal.

 

Children traumatised the inclusion of a single serving of apples in their Happy Meal will not be likely to to repeat due to lack of vigilance; they may even avoid hefty therapist bills in later life, secure in the knowledge that the "apple incident" forms the core of their neuroses.

 

But, that is the main difference between ideologies in this thread. I don't give a rap what you feed your children, how you raise them, or anything else related to your parental decisions. The opposing ideology wants to control everyone's choices (no "bad" things for you!) so we all live in their version of paradise. Not interested. I'll take my independent, occasional junk-food filled life anytime.

If you insist on seeing it in black-and-white, either-or terms, sure. But do you think it just might be possible that some of the people disagreeing with you are not in de facto support of your chosen nemesis?

[KungFuPanda]

:lol::lol: Better French Fires than Freedom Fires, don't you think?

 

COMMUNIST! That's right, you're a French Communist. It must be a thing.

[KarenNC]

What many here are absolutely refusing to grasp is that there are people out there (Cass being one of them) who want to preselect your available choices for you. Even if they are what he considers to be the better or healthier choice, people do not need his services. He influences not only our current administration, but is working to influence private industry.

 

Of course there are. I don't think anyone would be able to honestly claim they do not exist. Life is full of people who want to control what other people do, say, are exposed to, etc in varying degrees. I preselect what my child is exposed to dependent on her age, a restaurant preselects the options available to me, retailers preselect the objects among which I can choose, any number of people are happy to try to preselect what I can believe, see, do, the gods I can worship and the manner in which I can do that, the person I can marry, the health choices I can make, etc. I simply don't agree that a restaurant choosing to alter a menu item is something I need to fear. It's marketing and I can choose to buy their product or not.

Edited July 28, 2011 by KarenNC

[justasque]

They in a sense are choosing for me with this new change.

 

What many here are absolutely refusing to grasp is that there are people out there (Cass being one of them) who want to preselect your available choices for you.

 

vs.

 

I never just take what is handed to me, and I never will.

 

That's, I think, the difference between those of us who are up in arms vs. those of us who are all "what's the big deal". If you're just TAKING the choices that mainstream culture is providing for you, then I can see how it would be scary when someone wants to change those choices. But you don't have to choose only from the main menu - there are so many other choices.

 

Don't like the grocery store? Grow your own, join a CSA, or buy direct from the producer at a local farmer's market. Put up summer food for the winter. Find local non-chain restaurants. Cook your own from scratch, or buy from a take-out place that does.

 

Don't like the fashion industry? Sew your own, or shop the thrifts where you'll find choices from various fashion seasons, not just what's "in" now. Or hire someone to sew for you, or shop eBay, or Etsy.

 

Don't like what's on the radio? Try Pandora, or check out all the indie choices out there in whatever genre you like.

 

Don't like the selection at Toys-R-Us? Try one of the excellent mail-order catalogs or an independent toy store.

 

Patronize potters, carpenters, tailors, and other craftspeople, either locally or in small internet businesses. Seek out catalogs of items carefully curated by someone who shares your taste.

 

Don't like the educational establishment? Homeschool!

 

If you're not actually patronizing the McDonalds, the Walmarts, and so on, you aren't as vulnerable to the choices they want to make for you. You won't have to stress nearly so much about stuff like this french fry/apple kerfuffle.

 

And the more you patronize those firms who offer an alternative, the more of them can survive/thrive. I'm glad we have a local mom-and-pop burger joint nearby. They have great burgers, fries, and milkshakes. And no apples whatsoever. :)

[nmoira]

I thought this might be of interest: Fast-food study finds calories count for little for most customers

 

But a study carried out at lunchtime in 11 fast-food chains before and after the New York legislation came in has found that calorie labelling does have an effect – although only on about one in six customers and only in certain food outlets. At McDonald's, KFC and the sandwich store Au Bon Pain, customers cut down on the calories. But overall, there was no reduction in the calorie intake of more than 8,000 customers, and at Subway the calorie intake actually went up by 17.8%.

 

Having healthier food on offer appeared to play a big part in the outcomes. Au Bon Pain, for instance, introduced a lower calorie Portions menu in 2008 while KFC added grilled chicken to the fried chicken on offer in April 2009, which cut the calories by 9%. Subway, on the other hand, added a supersized "$5 foot-long" sandwich in 2008 to appeal to the economically strapped, which three out of four customers in the study were buying by 2009.

[ElizaG]

They're downsizing both the french fries and the apples, eliminating the dipping caramel for the apples - thus, this is a nice, neat, PC way to actually provide less for your money than before, while trumpeting how wonderful they are for looking out for the health of kids

:iagree: They'll be providing 20% fewer calories (i.e., less food), but I'm guessing that they won't be decreasing the price. Seems pretty convenient for them.

[Mom in High Heels]

Their largest clientele is going to be poor inner city or rural folks.... they don't always have the internet and if they do, you can bet they aren't frequenting classical education boards and other forums that specialize in the luxuries of suburbia... just a thought.

 

Ah, but the other board I was referring to is NOT a hsing board and so not high brow. If I thought it wouldn't break board rules, I'd link it. This actually isn't a board I frequent (if you went there you'd know why), but the conversation about McD's was on the front page of the community, listed as a "hot topic" (I go there for a few military boards and *gasp* another hs board) and since we'd had this discussion here, I thought I'd read through it. I found it amusing that more than 3/4 of the posters said they'd NEVER take their kids to McD's. So, if no one eats there, what's the big deal?

[Renee in NC]

vs.

 

 

 

That's, I think, the difference between those of us who are up in arms vs. those of us who are all "what's the big deal". If you're just TAKING the choices that mainstream culture is providing for you, then I can see how it would be scary when someone wants to change those choices. But you don't have to choose only from the main menu - there are so many other choices.

 

Don't like the grocery store? Grow your own, join a CSA, or buy direct from the producer at a local farmer's market. Put up summer food for the winter. Find local non-chain restaurants. Cook your own from scratch, or buy from a take-out place that does.

 

Don't like the fashion industry? Sew your own, or shop the thrifts where you'll find choices from various fashion seasons, not just what's "in" now. Or hire someone to sew for you, or shop eBay, or Etsy.

 

Don't like what's on the radio? Try Pandora, or check out all the indie choices out there in whatever genre you like.

 

Don't like the selection at Toys-R-Us? Try one of the excellent mail-order catalogs or an independent toy store.

 

Patronize potters, carpenters, tailors, and other craftspeople, either locally or in small internet businesses. Seek out catalogs of items carefully curated by someone who shares your taste.

 

Don't like the educational establishment? Homeschool!

 

If you're not actually patronizing the McDonalds, the Walmarts, and so on, you aren't as vulnerable to the choices they want to make for you. You won't have to stress nearly so much about stuff like this french fry/apple kerfuffle.

 

And the more you patronize those firms who offer an alternative, the more of them can survive/thrive. I'm glad we have a local mom-and-pop burger joint nearby. They have great burgers, fries, and milkshakes. And no apples whatsoever. :)

 

:iagree: That is exactly it for me and why I have a "Who cares?" attitude.

[KarenNC]

Review info on Nudge from my libraries website:

 

Every day, we make decisions on topics ranging from personal investments to schools for our children to the meals we eat to the causes we champion. Unfortunately, we often choose poorly. The reason, the authors explain, is that, being human, we all are susceptible to various biases that can lead us to blunder. Our mistakes make us poorer and less healthy; we often make bad decisions involving education, personal finance, health care, mortgages and credit cards, the family, and even the planet itself. Thaler and Sunstein invite us to enter an alternative world, one that takes our humanness as a given. They show that by knowing how people think, we can design choice environments that make it easier for people to choose what is best for themselves, their families, and their society. Using colorful examples from the most important aspects of life, Thaler and Sunstein demonstrate how thoughtful "choice architecture" can be established to nudge us in beneficial directions without restricting freedom of choice.......

 

Exploring how people make decisions, Thaler and Sunstein (both, Univ. of Chicago) succinctly summarize for a general audience a large amount of academic and popular literature that has been written on this interdisciplinary topic. Entertaining, engaging, and well written, the book's central argument is that people can (and in some cases should) be subtly influenced to change their behavior (i.e., nudged) by using seemingly innocuous persuasion. So instead of instituting restrictive rules and penalties to influence people's decisions (e.g., speeding), it is much better to influence people so they unconsciously make better decisions. For example, people are more likely to pay their taxes (and do many other things) if they believe that nearly everyone pays their taxes. The authors make it clear that humans are fallible--so they will (and many times do) make bad decisions. Many poor decisions, however, result from people's inherent tendency to use their automatic (think: flinching) rather than reflective (think: calculus) thought processes when making decisions. Recognizing the power of this characteristic makes it possible to create effective "nudges" that aid people in making better decisions (without restricting the number of options available).

 

Summary: people are stupid and need to be manipulated into doing what "we" think is right.

 

McDonalds has every right to change their menu but I do see the pp's point about nudging. I can't say this is or isn't an example.

 

McDonald's probably got a govt incentive for changing the menu. :tongue_smilie:

 

Bold is my emphasis.

 

This is the essence of marketing, so I don't see it as something insidious or surprising or new, just something to be aware of. Some folks seem to be astonished at the idea that a mega-retailer might being doing things to make you prefer to purchase its product rather than someone else's and I'm not sure why the shock? I've spent a fair amount of time dissecting commericals, print ads and marketing campaigns with my preteen daughter to help her be aware of the type of manipulation people have been practicing since the dawn of time in retail, politics, religion, etc.

 

Why do you thing McD would need a government incentive to change their menu in a way that they think will bring them more money? They are targeting a specific market and, if that market doesn't buy in sufficient quantities, they will change again.

Edited July 28, 2011 by KarenNC

[KarenNC]

That's, I think, the difference between those of us who are up in arms vs. those of us who are all "what's the big deal". If you're just TAKING the choices that mainstream culture is providing for you, then I can see how it would be scary when someone wants to change those choices. But you don't have to choose only from the main menu - there are so many other choices.

 

This could well be it for us. I homeschool (and we use a lot of materials that aren't considered "homeschool mainstream"), buy almost everything we wear from thrift stores or make it, make our own toys when I don't find something we particularly want or enlist the help of friends who are artists/craftspeople, patronize CSA's and farmers' markets, converted to a religion that's a fringe even among fringe religions;), watch screen entertainment on dvd rather than having cable or satellite so that I control what I watch and when I want to watch it (so it doesn't really matter what's on this season), am as likely to hit an ethnic restaurant as a chain, sometimes choose to shop at various ethnic markets rather than the chain grocers, vastly prefer used bookstores because I might find treasures, etc. I wear what I like regardless of what is "fashionable" and have no qualms whatsoever about asking a restaurant to modify some offering if that's what I prefer. They may or may not do so, and then I may or may not spend my money there. I go to Target, McD, Walmart, but I don't feel constrained by their offerings. It's not blind consumerism.

 

Wow, maybe I'm more "counter-culture" than I realized:001_smile:. I've always considered myself pretty boringly mainstream.

Edited July 28, 2011 by KarenNC

[KarenNC]

This is not true. They have been doing this "sneakily" for at least 3 months in my area with no notice. Honestly, that was my main irritation on reading the article. I felt that we had been deceived because they have been rolling out the menu change, not informing the customer in any way- not on the menu, not orally when you place the order. I didn't even realize they had eliminated the caramel sauce! I just thought that we had bad service and they left it out accidentally. Now, I know that this has not been random bad service, but a corporate choice to not give us what we ordered and expected and to deliberately not inform the customers in the test market. I bet they were tracking how many people complained about wrong orders for months. I'm sure most people don't go often and assumed it was a random mistake not worth complaining about each time. So, if a customer goes in and orders menu item A (apples only, caramel sauce expected as there is no notice it won't be given and it is still called "apple dippers" if there's no caramel, there's no dipping), and customer receives, with no notice, smaller apples and fries, no caramel sauce, then that customer, IMO, is being deliberately misled. If they had informed us in the test market of what was going on before I ordered, then I wouldn't be as irritated.

 

This would irritate me as well, but, then, I would be the person who goes back through the drive telling them they made a mistake and asking them to give me what I ordered. It's part of my responsibility as a consumer to either inform retailers when they've made a mistake and give them a chance to correct it (everyone is human) or to respond to repeated bad service/failure to rectify errors by voting with my feet and wallet.

[sewingmama]

I think it's a good idea. Judging by the number of morbidly obese kids I see every day, most parents just aren't capable of feeding their kids decently healthy foods, so at least now kids that have dinner at McD's every night will get some fruit.

 

 

Not likely - if kids are not used to eating fruit they will just toss the apples in the garbage. The real health benefit of the meal would be that the kids are only getting half the serve of fries.

 

Maybe ther are so many overweight kids because they eat too much? It jas nothing to do with the happy meal. How many kids on THIS thread alone have outgrown the kid's meal? I haven't even outgrown the kids meal! HOW is that not enough calories for lunch? Kid's meals are some of the few restaurant meals I can finish!

 

 

 

When I visted the US I could not finish a single meal. I often felt guilty as soon as they bought the meal out and placed it in front of me because I knew on sight I wasn't going to eat even half of it - it felt like such a waste. The portions in Australia are about half the size of those in the US. Our MCD's does not have super size portions. Your medium is what we call large here. I nearly died when I went to a buffet place in the US and saw the size of the plates (ahem, platters) I swear I wouldn't eat in three days what people were eating in one meal - and then next to the mountain of food was this large plate of dessert waiting - I have no idea how they got it all down - it would have made me literally sick. We also do not usually get free sides here - if you want fries on the side you have to buy them extra -even with burgers. Another thing we do not have is free refills on softdrinks (although I think Hungry Jacks(Burger King) and Ikea now have them). Food is expensive in Australia and we don't get a lot of free extras so it helps keep the portions in control.

 

Oh and one last thing - You get caramel dip with your apples? SO unfair -all we get with our Happy Meals is the skanky apples with nothing to hide their nasty processed taste. Maybe if we got caramel too people would buy more of the apples.

Edited July 28, 2011 by sewingmama