Why do most books call The Netherlands Holland?

[Mom in High Heels]

It seems almost every history book I look at (including SOTW) calls The Netherlands Holland? Does anyone know why? Holland is a province IN The Netherlands, not the name of the country. I know during the late 1700's/early 1800's Napoleon conquered it and called it the Kingdom of Holland, but what was it called before that? Was it ever called Holland? Anyone know? Also, did yo know that the Dutch settled in the US before the Pilgrims? They founded New Amsterdam in 1614. Six years before the Pilgrims landed.

 

BTW, the post we live on is a NATO post, so we have soldiers here from most of the NATO countries. One day Indy and I were in line at Subway and there was a Dutch soldier in line in front of us. Indy asked what country the flag on his uniform was and he told us The Netherlands. I asked what part of The Netherlands he was from and he said Holland. He then went on to tell me that Holland was really like a state in The Netherlands, but most Americans insisted on calling the whole country Holland. He said it would be like a European calling the US Texas or California instead of the US. I asked him if this was annoying and he said, yes.

[Snickerdoodle]

.

[Kathleen in VA]

Don't know why the Netherlands keeps getting called Holland, but yes I did know that the Dutch settled in the New World in 1614. Why is that significant?

[Mom in High Heels]

Don't know why the Netherlands keeps getting called Holland, but yes I did know that the Dutch settled in the New World in 1614. Why is that significant?

 

Because most Americans think the Pilgrims were the first to settle permanently on the east coast. 1620 is considered the beginning of lasting settlements. Even SOTW 3 (ch 6, The Dutch and the New World) states that the English settled around Plymouth Plantation, the French settled Canada and the Spanish were in South America. It then states "The Dutch weren't far behind" (p65). Further on, it reads "In 1624, four years after the Pilgrims arrived at Plymouth Plantation, the Dutch East India Company decided to build a town called New Amsterdam on an island called Manhattan." (pg 66). This is off by 10 years. The Usborne Encyclopedia of World History (IL) lists the founding of New Amsterdam as 1624 as well. The Kingfisher Encyclopedia puts the founding of New Amsterdam in 1625.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Mom in High Heels

[JennyD]

Huh. Years ago I met the Dutch ambassador to Japan and he referred to his country as Holland. Possibly because the Japanese word for the Netherlands is also basically 'Holland.' (Oranda)

 

But very interesting that Holland more accurately refers to a particular region. Put that down for my new fact of the day!

[ktgrok]

I've generally heard it as "Holland and the Netherlands".

[Kathleen in VA]

Because most Americans think the Pilgrims were the first to settle permanently on the east coast. 1620 is considered the beginning of lasting settlements. Even SOTW 3 (ch 6, The Dutch and the New World) states that the English settled around Plymouth Plantation, the French settled Canada and the Spanish were in South America. It then states "The Dutch weren't far behind" (p65). Further on, it reads "In 1624, four years after the Pilgrims arrived at Plymouth Plantation, the Dutch East India Company decided to build a town called New Amsterdam on an island called Manhattan." (pg 66). This is off by 10 years. The Usborne Encyclopedia of World History (IL) lists the founding of New Amsterdam as 1624 as well. The Kingfisher Encyclopedia puts the founding of New Amsterdam in 1625.

 

Well, I've always been taught that Jamestown, Virginia, settled in 1607, was the first permanent English settlement in the New World.:confused:

 

ETA: I did say "English" but at 1607 it would be before both Manhattan and Plymouth.

[Melinda in VT]

My general impression is that books use The Netherlands to refer to the modern country but are more likely to use Holland when speaking historically, because for much (all?) of history Holland was the dominant region of the country politically, economically, culturally, and linguistically.

 

(But I've been known to sometimes use England in place of Great Britain, even though I've been to both Wales and Scotland and know better. :leaving: )

[DarlaS]

My general impression is that books use The Netherlands to refer to the modern country but are more likely to use Holland when speaking historically, because for much (all?) of history Holland was the dominant region of the country politically, economically, culturally, and linguistically.

 

(But I've been known to sometimes use England in place of Great Britain, even though I've been to both Wales and Scotland and know better. :leaving: )

 

History books also refer to Russia instead of the Soviet Union.

[cbollin]

Because most Americans think the Pilgrims were the first to settle permanently on the east coast. 1620 is considered the beginning of lasting settlements.

 

I"m in the camp that says Jamestown, VA was before Pilgrims. 1607, yes? 1619 was the considered the red letter year for the Jamestown folks. I remember that from my 4th grade history class. I did grow up in Virginia so, maybe that influences why I don't think of Pilgrims as first.

 

and of course there is that St. Augustine, FL city that was around 1565? but was not English, so maybe that's not what you meant?

 

interesting.

 

-crystal

[FrogMom5]

I'm not sure about Holland vs. The Netherlands but I was taught that a lot of the names for countries derive from the groups that settled the area. For instance, in Spanish and French, the name for Germany is very different from what we call this same territory/country. Their name derives from a group that settled the area. I think Hungary is another example.

 

By the way, Germans call their country Deutschland (I hope I spelled that right!).

Denise

[usetoschool]

Don't know about Holland vs. The Netherlands but here is what I have taught about the first settlements. Please correct where I have gotten it wrong.

 

In a nutshell the Dutch came to North America for financial and trading purposes and built Fort Amsterdam to protect those interests but it wasn't until 1624 that settlement charters were given by the government and it became part of The Netherlands - a colony. Before that all of the people and buildings were temporary or in support of the fur trading and such. I guess it is just a matter of semantics. The Jamestown people set out to create an intentional new settlement where the Dutch just ended up staying because of the Fort and trading and towns that sprung up. Even so, the earliest date I have on the timeline is 1609 when Henry Hudson went exploring and the date for Jamestown is 1607.

 

First continuously inhabited, first purpose built settlement, first European explorers - back to the Vikings? And do you count Spain (Florida) as European? Or only northern Europeans? Teach me more...

[HS Mom in NC]

The Dutch colony New Netherland (now New York) predates the English colony of Plymouth, but not the English colony of Jamestown if we're talking about colonies that were on what is now American soil.

 

During the early colonial era (the early to mid 1600s) The Netherlands was a confederation of 7 different regions. (I don't remember if "region" or "state" was the proper term then.) One of those regions was Holland. They also had an early form of representative government and a royal family too, so it's a hard government/nation to classify by modern standards.

 

Island at the Center of the World is a great book about the colony of New Netherlands (now New York after the English took it over in the mid 1600s) and New Amsterdam (now Manhattan.) Charles C. Coffin's Sweet Land of Liberty covers a some of the Dutch influence in Colonial America and details the cruel punishment given to those believing any doctrine outside the Dutch Reformed Church.

 

The Dutch were HUGELY influential in American political thought. They had freedom of religion. During the Protestant and Catholic Wars and Spanish Inquisition in Western Europe, The Netherlands was a refuge to Jews and anyone else in European countries as the official State Religions favored one religious point of view and oppressed others (it went both ways.) The pilgrims lived in The Netherlands, specifically the city of Leiden (sp?) for almost a decade before returning to England to board the Mayflower and sail to the New World. At the time they arrived in Leiden 30% of the population was made of refugees from European Religious Wars.

 

The Dutch had been under Spanish oppression in the late 1500s, and in the late 1590s, after the siege of Leiden ended (due to Divine intervention and a hurricane) the Dutch, rather than outlawing Catholicism, put into their Constitution a freedom of religion clause. They also had an almost completely free press, so ideas squashed in other European countries could be printed in The Netherlands and were then usually smuggled back into countries under oppression.

 

This kind of thinking so early on was actually influential in ending official state religions in the colonies that were here in America. In the 1650s some English refugees living in what is now Flushing, New York (Vlishing in Dutch) disobeyed the Dutch Governor's order (Peter Stuyevsant) to withhold aid and association with Quakers. (Then a new phenomenon.) Since the governor basically ruled the colony as a feudal chieftain and Dutch and other colonists were not granted the same rights as citizens in The Netherlands, he oppressed anyone practicing any faith other than membership in the Dutch Reformed Church. Any ship transporting a Quaker would be seized and given to the governor. Anyone preaching outside the Dutch Reformed church would be arrested, fined, could be publicly beaten, banished, etc.

 

Tobais Feake and Edward Hart penned The Flushing Remonstrance making a Biblical argument that freedom of religion and providing aid and association with anyone Christian or not because it's better to obey God rather than men. (Google it and add it to your list of essential first source American History Documents.) In it they also appeal to the fine tradition of freedom of religion in the Netherlands and eventually the case was heard in the Hauge. Most Constitutional scholars consider it the foundation for the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights.

 

It's the essential link between American colonies going from establishing State religions in the colonies, to a freedom of religion clause in our Constitution. Ideas spread slowly, but by the time the US Constitution was written and adopted, the great idea of freedom of religion had made its way to the USA. God bless the Dutch.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Homeschool Mom in AZ
typos

[Snickerdoodle]

English refugees living in what is now Flushing, New York (Vlishing in Dutch)

 

Vlissingen

[Snickerdoodle]

There is a North Holland province and a South Holland province. I wonder if it's the same kind of deal as when one says, "America" they mean the United States even though obviously, there are many countries in the Americas.

[Mom in High Heels]

 

By the way, Germans call their country Deutschland (I hope I spelled that right!).

Denise

 

As I live in Deutschland, I do know this, and yes, you spelled it right. :001_smile: Since the US got knocked out of the World Cup last year (the men's), and Germany was in the finals, we spent plenty of nights yelling "Deutschland!" Not that it did any good because they lost. :glare:

 

Don't know about Holland vs. The Netherlands but here is what I have taught about the first settlements. Please correct where I have gotten it wrong.

 

In a nutshell the Dutch came to North America for financial and trading purposes and built Fort Amsterdam to protect those interests but it wasn't until 1624 that settlement charters were given by the government and it became part of The Netherlands - a colony. Before that all of the people and buildings were temporary or in support of the fur trading and such. I guess it is just a matter of semantics. The Jamestown people set out to create an intentional new settlement where the Dutch just ended up staying because of the Fort and trading and towns that sprung up. Even so, the earliest date I have on the timeline is 1609 when Henry Hudson went exploring and the date for Jamestown is 1607.

 

First continuously inhabited, first purpose built settlement, first European explorers - back to the Vikings? And do you count Spain (Florida) as European? Or only northern Europeans? Teach me more...

 

Yes, I know this too (and I do count St. Augustine and Jamestown), but my point was that most history books don't give The Netherlands credit for being in America before the settlers in Plymouth. I suppose it is semantics, when you look at it, and since the charter wasn't given until 1624, that's probably why they're not credited (though I read that there were more than temporary buildings), but history books rarely mention the Dutch other than in throw away lines. I'm not sure why we give the Pilgrims so much credit. Not that, you know, they didn't cross and ocean to settle in a place where their futures were relatively uncertain (they were on their way to meet the Dutch and go up the Hudson river towards New Amsterdam), but I don't get why they are generally seen as the "benchmark" of American settlement. I don't even think Jamestown gets enough credit and it was years before Plymouth.

[Mom in High Heels]

There is a North Holland province and a South Holland province. I wonder if it's the same kind of deal as when one says, "America" they mean the United States even though obviously, there are many countries in the Americas.

 

 

Oh, this is a big beef with many Europeans I know. Those of us from the US call ourselves "Americans" but they argue (rightly) there are more countries IN the Americas than just the US. It's seen as arrogant. They think we should have a specific term for ourselves (like Canadians, Mexicans, etc), not just "Americans." What would that be, I wonder? USAans? United Staters?

[Rosie_0801]

Oh, this is a big beef with many Europeans I know. Those of us from the US call ourselves "Americans" but they argue (rightly) there are more countries IN the Americas than just the US. It's seen as arrogant. They think we should have a specific term for ourselves (like Canadians, Mexicans, etc), not just "Americans." What would that be, I wonder? USAans? United Staters?

 

Funny. I always wonder why you bods from the US don't specify state or city when responding to "Where are you from?" Obviously you're from the US! That's how I knew to ask!

 

:lol:

Rosie

[TXBeth]

Funny. I always wonder why you bods from the US don't specify state or city when responding to "Where are you from?" Obviously you're from the US! That's how I knew to ask!

 

:lol:

Rosie

 

LOL well I always answer with my state when asked that question. But that's because I belong to a state that people from other countries know about. If I were from, say, Iowa (no offense to any Iowans here)...I probably would say I'm American. :)

[mommaduck]

Oh, this is a big beef with many Europeans I know. Those of us from the US call ourselves "Americans" but they argue (rightly) there are more countries IN the Americas than just the US. It's seen as arrogant. They think we should have a specific term for ourselves (like Canadians, Mexicans, etc), not just "Americans." What would that be, I wonder? USAans? United Staters?

 

Rebels...Revolutionaries...Patriots :p

 

I guess I could say I'm a Carolinian. But I live amoungst the Pennsylvanians. Sometimes I just say that I'm a B.R.A.T.; we come from everywhere and nowhere, all at the same time. DH would be an Illinoisian, but he's not an Illinois (he's Cherokee/Creek). Maybe we could call him a St Louisan, but he never really lived in St Louis...this could get wacky...

Edited July 25, 2011 by mommaduck

[mommaduck]

Funny. I always wonder why you bods from the US don't specify state or city when responding to "Where are you from?" Obviously you're from the US! That's how I knew to ask!

 

:lol:

Rosie

 

Can't use city. There are many towns that have duplicate names in other states. In PA, I found two or three towns with the exact same name.

[FrogMom5]

I've told many European that I was from ________(whatever state I was living in at the time) and they responded by saying, "You're an American." So, who knows how that all got started. I'm a citizen of the U.S.

Denise

[Kathleen in VA]

As I live in Deutschland, I do know this, and yes, you spelled it right. :001_smile: Since the US got knocked out of the World Cup last year (the men's), and Germany was in the finals, we spent plenty of nights yelling "Deutschland!" Not that it did any good because they lost. :glare:

 

 

 

Yes, I know this too (and I do count St. Augustine and Jamestown), but my point was that most history books don't give The Netherlands credit for being in America before the settlers in Plymouth. I suppose it is semantics, when you look at it, and since the charter wasn't given until 1624, that's probably why they're not credited (though I read that there were more than temporary buildings), but history books rarely mention the Dutch other than in throw away lines. I'm not sure why we give the Pilgrims so much credit. Not that, you know, they didn't cross and ocean to settle in a place where their futures were relatively uncertain (they were on their way to meet the Dutch and go up the Hudson river towards New Amsterdam), but I don't get why they are generally seen as the "benchmark" of American settlement. I don't even think Jamestown gets enough credit and it was years before Plymouth.

 

I think the reason the Pilgrims get so much credit is because they wrote the first document, The Mayflower Compact, establishing a government based on the consent of the governed ever in the history of the world.

[usetoschool]

The Dutch colony New Netherland (now New York) predates the English colony of Plymouth, but not the English colony of Jamestown if we're talking about colonies that were on what is now American soil.

 

During the early colonial era (the early to mid 1600s) The Netherlands was a confederation of 7 different regions. (I don't remember if "region" or "state" was the proper term then.) One of those regions was Holland. They also had an early form of representative government and a royal family too, so it's a hard government/nation to classify by modern standards.

 

Island at the Center of the World is a great book about the colony of New Netherlands (now New York after the English took it over in the mid 1600s) and New Amsterdam (now Manhattan.) Charles C. Coffin's Sweet Land of Liberty covers a some of the Dutch influence in Colonial America and details the cruel punishment given to those believing any doctrine outside the Dutch Reformed Church.

 

The Dutch were HUGELY influential in American political thought. They had freedom of religion. During the Protestant and Catholic Wars and Spanish Inquisition in Western Europe, The Netherlands was a refuge to Jews and anyone else in European countries as the official State Religions favored one religious point of view and oppressed others (it went both ways.) The pilgrims lived in The Netherlands, specifically the city of Leiden (sp?) for almost a decade before returning to England to board the Mayflower and sail to the New World. At the time they arrived in Leiden 30% of the population was made of refugees from European Religious Wars.

 

The Dutch had been under Spanish oppression in the late 1500s, and in the late 1590s, after the siege of Leiden ended (due to Divine intervention and a hurricane) the Dutch, rather than outlawing Catholicism, put into their Constitution a freedom of religion clause. They also had an almost completely free press, so ideas squashed in other European countries could be printed in The Netherlands and were then usually smuggled back into countries under oppression.

 

This kind of thinking so early on was actually influential in ending official state religions in the colonies that were here in America. In the 1650s some English refugees living in what is now Flushing, New York (Vlishing in Dutch) disobeyed the Dutch Governor's order (Peter Stuyevsant) to withhold aid and association with Quakers. (Then a new phenomenon.) Since the governor basically ruled the colony as a feudal chieftain and Dutch and other colonists were not granted the same rights as citizens in The Netherlands, he oppressed anyone practicing any faith other than membership in the Dutch Reformed Church. Any ship transporting a Quaker would be seized and given to the governor. Anyone preaching outside the Dutch Reformed church would be arrested, fined, could be publicly beaten, banished, etc.

 

Tobais Feake and Edward Hart penned The Flushing Remonstrance making a Biblical argument that freedom of religion and providing aid and association with anyone Christian or not because it's better to obey God rather than men. (Google it and add it to your list of essential first source American History Documents.) In it they also appeal to the fine tradition of freedom of religion in the Netherlands and eventually the case was heard in the Hauge. Most Constitutional scholars consider it the foundation for the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights.

 

It's the essential link between American colonies going from establishing State religions in the colonies, to a freedom of religion clause in our Constitution. Ideas spread slowly, but by the time the US Constitution was written and adopted, the great idea of freedom of religion had made its way to the USA. God bless the Dutch.

 

Thanks! That was interesting.

[keptwoman]

LOL well I always answer with my state when asked that question. But that's because I belong to a state that people from other countries know about. If I were from, say, Iowa (no offense to any Iowans here)...I probably would say I'm American. :)

 

I would say that you are not giving people from other countries enough credit for geographical knowledge. I'd say most adults would know that Iowa, or pretty much any other state name for that matter, is a state of the USA. They may not be able to list the states and some may not be able to accurately point to them on a map, but I'm pretty sure that if a state was named, people would know which country it's in.

[Slartibartfast]

The Dutch colony New Netherland (now New York) predates the English colony of Plymouth, but not the English colony of Jamestown if we're talking about colonies that were on what is now American soil.

 

During the early colonial era (the early to mid 1600s) The Netherlands was a confederation of 7 different regions. (I don't remember if "region" or "state" was the proper term then.) One of those regions was Holland. They also had an early form of representative government and a royal family too, so it's a hard government/nation to classify by modern standards.

 

Island at the Center of the World is a great book about the colony of New Netherlands (now New York after the English took it over in the mid 1600s) and New Amsterdam (now Manhattan.) Charles C. Coffin's Sweet Land of Liberty covers a some of the Dutch influence in Colonial America and details the cruel punishment given to those believing any doctrine outside the Dutch Reformed Church.

 

The Dutch were HUGELY influential in American political thought. They had freedom of religion. During the Protestant and Catholic Wars and Spanish Inquisition in Western Europe, The Netherlands was a refuge to Jews and anyone else in European countries as the official State Religions favored one religious point of view and oppressed others (it went both ways.) The pilgrims lived in The Netherlands, specifically the city of Leiden (sp?) for almost a decade before returning to England to board the Mayflower and sail to the New World. At the time they arrived in Leiden 30% of the population was made of refugees from European Religious Wars.

 

The Dutch had been under Spanish oppression in the late 1500s, and in the late 1590s, after the siege of Leiden ended (due to Divine intervention and a hurricane) the Dutch, rather than outlawing Catholicism, put into their Constitution a freedom of religion clause. They also had an almost completely free press, so ideas squashed in other European countries could be printed in The Netherlands and were then usually smuggled back into countries under oppression.

 

This kind of thinking so early on was actually influential in ending official state religions in the colonies that were here in America. In the 1650s some English refugees living in what is now Flushing, New York (Vlishing in Dutch) disobeyed the Dutch Governor's order (Peter Stuyevsant) to withhold aid and association with Quakers. (Then a new phenomenon.) Since the governor basically ruled the colony as a feudal chieftain and Dutch and other colonists were not granted the same rights as citizens in The Netherlands, he oppressed anyone practicing any faith other than membership in the Dutch Reformed Church. Any ship transporting a Quaker would be seized and given to the governor. Anyone preaching outside the Dutch Reformed church would be arrested, fined, could be publicly beaten, banished, etc.

 

Tobais Feake and Edward Hart penned The Flushing Remonstrance making a Biblical argument that freedom of religion and providing aid and association with anyone Christian or not because it's better to obey God rather than men. (Google it and add it to your list of essential first source American History Documents.) In it they also appeal to the fine tradition of freedom of religion in the Netherlands and eventually the case was heard in the Hauge. Most Constitutional scholars consider it the foundation for the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights.

 

It's the essential link between American colonies going from establishing State religions in the colonies, to a freedom of religion clause in our Constitution. Ideas spread slowly, but by the time the US Constitution was written and adopted, the great idea of freedom of religion had made its way to the USA. God bless the Dutch.

 

They also killed a lot of NAs.

 

As far as my people are concerned....I doubt God was at all involved. I don't think he would approve of murder.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Sis

[Mom in High Heels]

I would say that you are not giving people from other countries enough credit for geographical knowledge. I'd say most adults would know that Iowa, or pretty much any other state name for that matter, is a state of the USA. They may not be able to list the states and some may not be able to accurately point to them on a map, but I'm pretty sure that if a state was named, people would know which country it's in.

 

I don't know. We were in Paris last month and buying cherries from a vendor. He knew we were American (he said we lacked the British accent) and asked where we were from. This is a tricky question for me, as I was born in AL, but my dad was in the Navy, so I lived kind of everywhere. Indy was born in Germany. Rather than try to explain this, I simply said AL, and he looked at me very blankly and said Florida? California? New York? I repeated AL, and again, nothing. I finally said "near Florida" and he said "Oh, yes, Florida!"

We've met many Germans who don't know the state of AL. Dh is AL born and bred (though you'd never know it to hear him talk as he has no accent) and it blows his mind when people don't recognize it. Some have actually asked what country it's in. We've been asked if it's in Canada, England, or even Australia. :confused:

Of course this is anecdotal, but that's all I have.

How did we get so far off of The Netherlands?????

[Mom in High Heels]

They also killed a lot of NAs.

 

As far as my people are concerned....I doubt God was at all involved. I don't think he would approve of massacres.

 

To be fair, none of the Europeans who "settled" any of the Americas were exactly angels. I've read books that stated (from original records) that the settlers in the US and Canada often robbed the graves of Native Americans. They also massacred thousands (probably more). They took over towns, stole crops (Though there are first person accounts that say they later went back to "pay" with beads and trinkets for the crops. I wonder what the Natives thought of this. You can't exactly eat beads.), and enslaved Natives. Not exactly Godly. BTW, one of the books I read (actually 2, one referenced the other) stated that there was no church or formal religious ceremonies in the Plymouth colony for 10 years after arrival. They married civilly, not religiously.

[Slartibartfast]

To be fair, none of the Europeans who "settled" any of the Americas were exactly angels. I've read books that stated (from original records) that the settlers in the US and Canada often robbed the graves of Native Americans. They also massacred thousands (probably more). They took over towns, stole crops (Though there are first person accounts that say they later went back to "pay" with beads and trinkets for the crops. I wonder what the Natives thought of this. You can't exactly eat beads.), and enslaved Natives. Not exactly Godly. BTW, one of the books I read (actually 2, one referenced the other) stated that there was no church or formal religious ceremonies in the Plymouth colony for 10 years after arrival. They married civilly, not religiously.

 

I was put off by the "God bless the Dutch" in the historical sense seeing how they treated MY direct ancestors.

 

 

 

People still rob the graves of NAs.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Sis

[Margaret in GA]

I think the reason the Pilgrims get so much credit is because they wrote the first document, The Mayflower Compact, establishing a government based on the consent of the governed ever in the history of the world.

 

 

:iagree: There is more to it than that, though. There is an interesting book, A Voyage Long and Strange by Tony Horrowitz that goes into how puzzling the Mayflower lore is. We do tend to forget the Spanish were here for so much longer than the English. And similarly, the Vikings get less credit than Columbus. We like the narrative of the Pilgrims and Christopher Columbus. My opinion is that the English were simply more influential in the formation of our country than any other group. And because the Pilgrims have a great story (granted, its a little muddled), they get more credit than they deserve.

[FaithManor]

Regionally, I think many Michigan residents get confused because we have Holland, MI. which was a Dutch settlement. The Dutch influence is still huge there, GREAT PLACE TO VISIT AND HANG OUT, and the Dutch Reformed Church is still very active in that area. Unfortunately, the settlers of Holland, MI. way back in the day, acted as though Holland was The Netherlands and didn't speak much about any area of The Netherlands except their beloved Holland. So, it gave the Michigan folk the impression that the terms were interchangeable. I still hear Michigan residents say things like, "Holland....oh wait, I mean The Netherlands."

 

But, again, that is just a regional thing. I don't know enough to understand why the confusion from a wider spectrum of "staters". For what it is worth, the correct term for residents of my state is Michigander and I don't like it. Something just speaks "Goose" to me when I hear it and every gander I've ever known was such a mean bird that roosters seemed positively benevolent by comparison!! LOL

 

Faith

[mrs.m]

BTW, one of the books I read (actually 2, one referenced the other) stated that there was no church or formal religious ceremonies in the Plymouth colony for 10 years after arrival. They married civilly, not religiously.

 

I knew about the civil marriages. But I never read about no church or formal religious ceremonies for 10 years. What is your source as I would like to know more?

[zaichiki]

I'm not sure why we give the Pilgrims so much credit. Not that, you know, they didn't cross and ocean to settle in a place where their futures were relatively uncertain (they were on their way to meet the Dutch and go up the Hudson river towards New Amsterdam), but I don't get why they are generally seen as the "benchmark" of American settlement. I don't even think Jamestown gets enough credit and it was years before Plymouth.

 

It's all marketing. ;) We (as a country) speak English. The 13 colonies were English colonies. So, we're looking at the English version of history. And to make it worse :tongue_smilie: we have Plimoth Plantation (museum) -- more marketing!

 

The pilgrims have been "sold" here in our country for a long time. It's going to take a bit of purposeful gap-filling to correct.

[Chris in VA]

I think for the Pilgrims, there wasn't a distinction between civil and religious--but I could be wrong. It's silly to me to say there was no organized religion.

[JennyD]

. For what it is worth, the correct term for residents of my state is Michigander and I don't like it. Something just speaks "Goose" to me when I hear it and every gander I've ever known was such a mean bird that roosters seemed positively benevolent by comparison!! LOL

 

Faith

 

LOL. But surely you hold up your palm to demonstrate where, precisely, in Michigan you live?

[FaithManor]

LOL. But surely you hold up your palm to demonstrate where, precisely, in Michigan you live?

 

 

:lol::lol: No! I will not hold up the palm of my hand to demonstrate geographical locations. It's just plain embarassing to do so these days. :D

 

I pretend that I live in a state that is square...functional delusion. :001_smile:

 

Faith

[mrs.m]

I'm not sure why we give the Pilgrims so much credit. Not that, you know, they didn't cross and ocean to settle in a place where their futures were relatively uncertain (they were on their way to meet the Dutch and go up the Hudson river towards New Amsterdam), but I don't get why they are generally seen as the "benchmark" of American settlement. I don't even think Jamestown gets enough credit and it was years before Plymouth.

 

It's not exactly about who settled first. It's what that settlement led to eventually. Even though it seems that the first should be the one we look up to, that just isn't the case. The Pilgrams get so much credit because of the Mayflower Compact. They set-up the first government that was run by the majority. In addition to that our religious freedom is rooted in their settlement. (That's the short answer. There's probably books written about this...)

[FaithManor]

It's not exactly about who settled first. It's what that settlement led to eventually. Even though it seems that the first should be the one we look up to, that just isn't the case. The Pilgrams get so much credit because of the Mayflower Compact. They set-up the first government that was run by the majority. In addition to that our religious freedom is rooted in their settlement.

 

 

And the interesting thing about the Mayflower Compact is that the little known agreement amongst five Native American nations was a very sophisticated governmental compact. The Iroquois Constitution was probably actually the first government that outlined the privileges/rights and responsibilities of the citizens and leaders of the compact. It also included a section on "foreign policy". It was ratified by leaders of the Iroquois, Mowhawk, Oneida, Seneca, Cuyahoga, and Onondaga tribes somewhere between 1475 and 1525. It was such a sophisticated document that Ben Franklin quoted often from it beginning in 1744 for material for his editorials.

 

Yet, due to the Eurocentric bias of U.S. History books, most Americans are unaware of just how sophisticated the cultures and governments of Native Americans were prior to European arrival.

 

It really is a misnomer to state that the Mayflower Compact was the first constitution or governmental compact that guaranteed rights to the people on American soil. But, it is stated as fact in most textbooks.

 

Faith

[Karen in CO]

I"m in the camp that says Jamestown, VA was before Pilgrims. 1607, yes? 1619 was the considered the red letter year for the Jamestown folks. I remember that from my 4th grade history class. I did grow up in Virginia so, maybe that influences why I don't think of Pilgrims as first.

 

and of course there is that St. Augustine, FL city that was around 1565? but was not English, so maybe that's not what you meant?

 

interesting.

 

-crystal

 

I'm from FL. When I was in elementary school, we had FL history and US history one year. I still remember the discrepancy between the two. The US history book taught the American mythology about the Mayflower bringing the Pilgrims as the first Europeans to America. The FL history book taught about Spanish settlements and the Indian tribes that were already here when the explorers arrived.

[HeidiKC]

Ok, what about the term "Dutch"? That has always confused me! Sounds like "Deutsch", of course. Where did it come from and what does it really have to do with either "Holland" or "The Netherlands"? I think the Dutch themselves call their country "The Netherlands" (Dutch version, of course). What do they call themselves and their language?

[zaichiki]

Ok, what about the term "Dutch"? That has always confused me! Sounds like "Deutsch", of course. Where did it come from and what does it really have to do with either "Holland" or "The Netherlands"? I think the Dutch themselves call their country "The Netherlands" (Dutch version, of course). What do they call themselves and their language?

 

Don't the people from The Netherlands call themselves Nederlanders? (I seem to have that bit of info in my brain, but I'm not sure where I heard it.)

 

And is their language... Flemish?

[HS Mom in NC]

They also killed a lot of NAs.

 

As far as my people are concerned....I doubt God was at all involved. I don't think he would approve of murder.

 

 

If you read the Flushing Remonstrance (google it) you will see these people made a Biblical argument to treat all people with kindness if they are a different kind of Christian OR if they are not Christian at all because God told them to in the Bible. (Almost every sentence is a quote or partial quote of a Bible verse.) They didn't think God agreed with murder either. Because that's the central theme, if makes your post seem odd.

 

So, again, this is a very important document promoting a very important idea that is applicable to all American students showing that even devoutly religious Christians understand and agree with freedom of religion for everyone because their God told them so. By implication that can be lived out by some choosing no religion at all.

[FaithManor]

The official language of the Netherlands and Belgium is Dutch. Flemish is sometimes used, though not necessarily accurately, to reflect the dialect of Dutch spoken in a region of Belgium referred to as Flanders.

Belgian Dutch has absorbed more French terms than the Dutch spoken in the Netherlands.

 

The dialects of Dutch spoken in Beligum include, West Flemish, East Flemish, Limburgish, and Brabantian.

 

The usage of the term "Flemish" derives from references to the County of Flanders.

 

Dutch is a West Germanic language closely related to both German and English/Anglo-Saxon.

 

Faith

Edited July 25, 2011 by FaithManor
added info

[Dobela]

Back to the original question - I think that the different names are sometimes used because they were more popular at different times in history. Russia and the Soviet are different countries in the same place with different ideals, government, and so on. The country referred to itself differently during different time periods. Would the same be true for Holland/Netherlands? THink about England/Great Britian and others as well.

[elinnea]

Germans usually refer to The Netherlands as Holland too. We used to live not so far from the Dutch border and everyone would say they were driving over to "Holland" rather than "die Niederlande".

[Rosie_0801]

Ok, what about the term "Dutch"? That has always confused me! Sounds like "Deutsch", of course. Where did it come from and what does it really have to do with either "Holland" or "The Netherlands"? I think the Dutch themselves call their country "The Netherlands" (Dutch version, of course). What do they call themselves and their language?

 

The only ones I have met called their language Dutch and themselves "Dutchies." :lol: But of course we were speaking English...

 

Rosie

[Sun]

The only ones I have met called their language Dutch and themselves "Dutchies." :lol: But of course we were speaking English...

 

Rosie

 

:iagree: All the Dutchies I know call their birth country Holland, not the Netherlands. I will have to ask them why!

[Mom in High Heels]

And the interesting thing about the Mayflower Compact is that the little known agreement amongst five Native American nations was a very sophisticated governmental compact. The Iroquois Constitution was probably actually the first government that outlined the privileges/rights and responsibilities of the citizens and leaders of the compact. It also included a section on "foreign policy". It was ratified by leaders of the Iroquois, Mowhawk, Oneida, Seneca, Cuyahoga, and Onondaga tribes somewhere between 1475 and 1525. It was such a sophisticated document that Ben Franklin quoted often from it beginning in 1744 for material for his editorials.

 

Yet, due to the Eurocentric bias of U.S. History books, most Americans are unaware of just how sophisticated the cultures and governments of Native Americans were prior to European arrival.

 

It really is a misnomer to state that the Mayflower Compact was the first constitution or governmental compact that guaranteed rights to the people on American soil. But, it is stated as fact in most textbooks.

 

Faith

 

Thank you! I couldn't remember the name of the NA league until you posted this. I've heard it called both the League of Nations and the League of 5 Nations. From what I remember, they had a central gov't, written constitution, a council, debates and votes. There were some downsides to it, in that all votes had to be unanimous (we'd NEVER get anything done in our gov't if that were the case!), and leadership was hereditary. This all predates the Mayflower Compact by a couple of hundred years. There is a theory that Franklin based his Albany Plan (and later the Article of Confederation and the Constitution) on both European models and the League of Nations. Of course this is hotly debated.

 

All the Dutchies I know call their birth country Holland, not the Netherlands. I will have to ask them why!

 

Please do. The soldier (and others I've met from the Netherlands) find this a very annoying habit of both Americans and the Brits. BTW, they call their country Nederland and themselves Nederlander.

In Dutch: Ik ben Nederlander (Nederlander translates to Dutchman)

Like German, I think females would say Nederlanderin, but I'm not positive. In German, Dh would say Ich bin Amerikaner, but I would say Ich bin Amerikanerin