Murdochthread locked??? Someone asked me why I'd consider leaving the U.S./response

[FaithManor]

Hello,

 

Someone asked Rebekah (sp?) and I, who do not believe the US economy will recover any time soon and will definitely get worse, why we would consider leaving America. I wanted to respond to that question on my behalf. Hopefully, Rebekah will see this thread and do the same.

 

Dh and I have been studying empires in decline, historical trends, economic trends, etc. and all of this info points to an America where getting employed, staying employed, and meeting basic needs is only going to get tougher. America is in decline and it may very well be a permanent decline. Sorry if I am being a wet blanket, but it is what we believe.

 

We have three children to provide for, elderly relatives who are going to need money, a grand-niece whose parents are likely, within a year or two, to be unable to care for her financially even though they are doing a great job parenting her. These young parents have no skills, nothing marketable about them, and no meaningful education that can be used to keep them from abject poverty as the economy sinks. We believe that the debt/trade deficit is so vast that eventually the government will have to take austerity measures which means serious cuts in medicare/medicaid/food stamps/housing assistance as well as the end of farm subsidies (which will mean many people will lose the family farm because they have based their economic viability on that farm by the government paycheck and not growing crops for niche markets so they do not have to compete with Big AG), ethanol subsidies (which will likely put the largest employer in our county out of business), massive cuts in federal education monies which will trickle down to state budgets which will result in more teachers being fired and classrooms of 50-70 children similar to developing nations, pension cuts causing retired individuals to begin entering the work-force again thus driving wages down even more, cuts to the federal minimum wage (UGH!), etc. Every department of the government will end up being cut by the dictates of the WMF who now already controls our treaties because we've borrowed so much.

 

We feel very strongly about trying to help our relatives and dh's job isn't likely to get better. He already works 75-80 hrs. a week for no extra time off, no extra benefits, no pay raises. This is the new norm and as prices continue to inflate, our ability to help elderly relatives and assist in maintaining the needs of grand-niece are going to dwindle.

 

So, we are looking at where we can go and provide for our family while also sending money home. Currently in the running are Chanai (India), Bangladesh (sp?), Thailand, Malaysia, Brazil, and Singapore. Chanai, Bangladesh, and Brazil are possibilities within his own company. We are doing a lot of research to find out just what the costs of living are, best places to live, necessary funds to live comfortably though not extravagantly, homeschooling laws as ex-pats, etc.

 

Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore would be countries available to DH through another company. Thus far, Thailand is looking promising. We think we can winterize this house, paying the minimum in property insurance and selling all the vehicles plus maintaining the property tax, pay for a handyman to do things for dh's mother, send money to grand-niece's parents, and save college money for the boys while living in a gated community (nice, certainly not posh or high end), three bedroom townhouse that comes partially furnished, food, a part-time helper for grocery shopping and laundry (no laundry facilities in the gate community we are looking at), and home-school while providing necessities and some wants. But, the downside is that the new company would not be willing to send us over so we can spend a week or two really exploring and we don't have enough money in savings ($8000.00 roof currently in progress here) to do it ourselves. We are not comfortable, at this point, saying yes to the job and the move going into it "blind". This is why he is exloring other countries within his company.

 

Essentially, he needs to negotiate his current salary plus 30% and health benefits within the country. We also need to be in a city with an excellent, modern hospital with a good cardiac unit just in case ds ever had trouble with his heart again. Bangkok fits that bill well for us. But, current salary plus 25% and crappy health coverage is so far the norm for that company. We aren't looking to jump ship within the next month or two. We are willing to be patient and wait for the right offer and if that never happens, then it doesn't happen and we'll deal with it. However, we are actively looking to move internationally.

 

We would not be surrendering our U.S. citizenship. We want the ability to come home when necessary and we want the children to be able to come back to the states for college if we can afford it. We would be more like Heather and her husband in Malaysia....living and working indefinitely outside the U.S. as expats. We do believe that the economy is going to tank very, very badly here while others areas, particularly developing nations whose economies are not so globally based, will continue along.

 

Faith

[Sputterduck]

The weather is nice in Mexico.... Just sayin' :tongue_smilie:

[Heather in Neverland]

Well i would be happy to answer any questions you have about living in Malaysia. I have also spent time in Singapore and have friends who live there and I have contacts in Thailand if you want more anecdotal info about living there. I will be in Bangkok in October.

 

And FWIW I agree with you.

[Moxie]

Have you ever been to Bangladesh? That is where my BIL is from. He just became an American citizen last month :001_smile:. Anyway, he doesn't say ANYTHING that would make me want to visit, far less live there. He is very glad to not live there anymore and he was from a wealthy (by Bangladesh standards) family.

[mama2cntrykids]

Want to keep an eye on this thread...interesting.

[FaithManor]

Have you ever been to Bangladesh? That is where my BIL is from. He just became an American citizen last month :001_smile:. Anyway, he doesn't say ANYTHING that would make me want to visit, far less live there. He is very glad to not live there anymore and he was from a wealthy (by Bangladesh standards) family.

 

 

As I said before, we are only in the discovery stage and we haven't had the money to do the travel ourselves. So, again, I can't say anything about Bangladesh or what our situation would be while living there. This country is the lowest on our priority for research of all the ones mentioned but it is one on the list because his current employer would provide housing and the housing would be primo by any standard. But, again, we've seen what look like better situations for our family and for ease of homeschooling in other countries. Therefore, we haven't checked into Bangladesh in any depth at all.

 

Thank you,

Faith

[Heather in Neverland]

Have you ever been to Bangladesh? That is where my BIL is from. He just became an American citizen last month :001_smile:. Anyway, he doesn't say ANYTHING that would make me want to visit, far less live there. He is very glad to not live there anymore and he was from a wealthy (by Bangladesh standards) family.

 

Many Bangladesh people come to Malaysia for a better life. They do not have anything good to say about the country. And Singapore... You want to talk about an expensive place to live? Wow, the cost of living there is outrageous! Thailand and Malaysia are both great places although Malaysia's government is more stable. I don't know much about Chanai other than legendary roti!

[FaithManor]

Heather, what about homeschooling in Malaysia? I've seen a couple of sites that say it's heavily regulated, you need a permit, and that the government can take up to two years to issue the permit. As much as I'd love to enroll my boys in your school and then volunteer there helping with science labs and music, dh's salary plus 30% wouldn't be enough to afford tuition and still send any money home to the hurting relatives. It would be fiscally impossible. So, we'd need to homeschool. Plus, I'm not certain he could get the position in your city. Most of this company's openings are in Kuala Lumpur (sp??).

 

By the way, any news on Natalie's U.S. visa??? Did you find anyway to get the pole out of the bureaucratic U.S. keister?

 

Thanks,

Faith

[ktgrok]

Sincere question here. If your husband stays with the same company, how will moving to another country help you? The concerns you mention mainly dealt with job security, employment, etc...and if you stay with the same company he is with now, you would still have those issues, right?

[K&Rs Mom]

I appreciate your posting this, especially with the specifics. We've had a similar conversation more than once, but it always ends up with looking around and seeing no place that seems like it's going to be any better. So far our only leaning has been Switzerland, but I see the EU going much worse than the US, so that's not really going to help.

[TracyP]

Faith, what do you think the affect will be in these other countries if the US economy declines in the way you suggest? Do you think these countries have a reliance on America's "buying power" to continue their own rate of growth?

 

FWIW, I think your predictions are very likely.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

This is a five part blog series (at Strong Towns blog site) about how we got to the point we are economically. It is interesting.

 

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

[In The Great White North]

So far our only leaning has been Switzerland, but I see the EU going much worse than the US, so that's not really going to help.

 

Switzerland is not in the EU or on the Euro.

[asta]

Switzerland is not in the EU or on the Euro.

 

Nor are they generous with work permits.

 

 

a

[AHASRADA]

When tech engineering jobs like my dh's started being outsourced to India, Singapore and Taiwan back in 2004/5, we saw the writing on the wall.

 

Dh wanted to become an entrepreneur, rather than being a slave to the corporate world and the constant threat of layoffs. However, this was too big a risk for us to take in the US, since there is no social safety net to back us up if our ventures failed, or while trying to get things off the ground, no healthcare for the self-employed, etc.. We also looked ahead at college, the rising costs, and the realization that we would never be able to save that much money.

 

So, we applied for immigration to Canada. This was 5 years ago, and we likely would not qualify today since the requirements have become stricter.

 

Due to free health care, family assistance payments (a subsidy paid to all families with children), and the option to receive financial aide for living expenses while furthering our education, we have managed to ride out the recession and slowly work on growing our business. There also was no housing boom and bust, so the financial crisis was felt less acutely here. Our children will be able to attend a Canadian university as a resident student (as opposed to a foreign student), at a much lower cost than in the US.

 

I love my country (the US), visit frequently, and would love to move back if and when the economy is able to support that. For now, though, I am grateful that we were pro-active and made the move across the border well before the crisis hit.

 

Moving to another country is not a decision to be taken lightly, and one should do as much research as possible to be fully informed of the pros and cons ahead of time. Those who already have family or other ties overseas , however, may be wise to strongly consider a move, if beneficial for their family.

Edited July 22, 2011 by AHASRADA

[stripe]

Nor are they generous with work permits.

 

But if you have to bunker down somewhere, it would be nice to do so with a chunk of chocolate or a supply of rotis.

[Murphy101]

But if you have to bunker down somewhere, it would be nice to do so with a chunk of chocolate or a supply of rotis.

 

:iagree:

:lurk5:

[FaithManor]

Sincere question here. If your husband stays with the same company, how will moving to another country help you? The concerns you mention mainly dealt with job security, employment, etc...and if you stay with the same company he is with now, you would still have those issues, right?

 

 

Job security is actually not an issue. His job is secure since he works on a global account that affects contracts in 17 countries. The problem is that as long as he chooses to remain stateside and NOT do project management overseas, he will not be getting any more pay raises, his hours will not get better, and the U.S. employees may have to take pay cuts. The overseas teams actually work better hours than the American team. The job itself isn't going anywhere. But, if income contracts or never increases, inflation continues, etc. then we will reach a place where we can't help the relatives in the manner we think they are going to need in the next few years. Our cost of living, say in Thailand, is actually lower than here due to what some companies pay towards housing plus 25%-30% more salary than he is currently paid. This may, under the right circumstances, allow us to live overseas and still send money home. Our grand-niece is in a bad place long term not because she doesn't have good parents, but because what her parents are qualified to do for a living is barely above minimum wage. As it is, they are living with grandparents that can barely afford to have the added utilities, etc. of three more people.

 

Unfortunately, this is a public forum with no privacy so I am not comfortable saying more about my husband's job or the nature of the family financial crisis we see on the horizon. It is also not wise for me to list detailed particulars of the job offers he will be considering. Suffice it to say, though we don't worry too much about providing for our children here in America, we don't see a lot of good things for the U.S. economically for the next decade and we would really, really like to help a couple of family members. So, if dh can find a good fit in another country with a lower cost of living, health benefits, and more income, then we will definitely consider leaving the U.S.A. indefinitely.

 

Faith

[Impish]

Due to free health care, family assistance payments (a subsidy paid to all families with children), and the option to receive financial aide for living expenses while furthering our education, we have managed to ride out the recession and slowly work on growing our business. There also was no housing boom and bust, so the financial crisis was felt less acutely here. Our children will be able to attend a Canadian university as a resident student (as opposed to a foreign student), at a much lower cost than in the US..

Family assistance is welfare. It is NOT available to the average Canadian. Immigration has different rules, and so your statement that it is a subsidy paid to all families with children is completely incorrect.

 

There is Child Tax Benefit available to families, based on income.

 

There is another program that gives $100 for children under 6 per family.

 

But Family Assistance is a welfare program. Average Canadians also do not get housing assistance either.

[Murphy101]

Family assistance is welfare. It is NOT available to the average Canadian. Immigration has different rules, and so your statement that it is a subsidy paid to all families with children is completely incorrect.

 

There is Child Tax Benefit available to families, based on income.

 

There is another program that gives $100 for children under 6 per family.

 

But Family Assistance is a welfare program. Average Canadians also do not get housing assistance either.

 

 

Oh that's okay. It's too cold up there for me to be bribed anyways.:tongue_smilie:

[Wyndie]

:lurk5:

[ktgrok]

Job security is actually not an issue. His job is secure since he works on a global account that affects contracts in 17 countries. The problem is that as long as he chooses to remain stateside and NOT do project management overseas, he will not be getting any more pay raises, his hours will not get better, and the U.S. employees may have to take pay cuts. The overseas teams actually work better hours than the American team. The job itself isn't going anywhere. But, if income contracts or never increases, inflation continues, etc. then we will reach a place where we can't help the relatives in the manner we think they are going to need in the next few years. Our cost of living, say in Thailand, is actually lower than here due to what some companies pay towards housing plus 25%-30% more salary than he is currently paid. This may, under the right circumstances, allow us to live overseas and still send money home. Our grand-niece is in a bad place long term not because she doesn't have good parents, but because what her parents are qualified to do for a living is barely above minimum wage. As it is, they are living with grandparents that can barely afford to have the added utilities, etc. of three more people.

 

Unfortunately, this is a public forum with no privacy so I am not comfortable saying more about my husband's job or the nature of the family financial crisis we see on the horizon. It is also not wise for me to list detailed particulars of the job offers he will be considering. Suffice it to say, though we don't worry too much about providing for our children here in America, we don't see a lot of good things for the U.S. economically for the next decade and we would really, really like to help a couple of family members. So, if dh can find a good fit in another country with a lower cost of living, health benefits, and more income, then we will definitely consider leaving the U.S.A. indefinitely.

 

Faith

 

Ok, that makes a lot of sense. My husband's job is also one where travel, or being mobile, is required in most areas if you want to move ahead/make more money. Luckily it seems so far that short trips are enough to keep him moving ahead in the department/field he is in. He spent a few weeks in India last year, and would NOT want to live there, or even have me and the kids visit. But i know a lot of areas in his company are like what you are saying.

[FaithManor]

Faith, what do you think the affect will be in these other countries if the US economy declines in the way you suggest? Do you think these countries have a reliance on America's "buying power" to continue their own rate of growth?

 

FWIW, I think your predictions are very likely.

 

 

Hi, that's why we are trying to avoid looking at economies that are U.S. or even EU dependent. Thailand and Malaysia, for instance, really do not buy much of anything from America and they aren't manufacturing based societies. China, though dh's company plus about three others, would love to send him there, is not in the running. Their economy has become larely dependent on U.S. consumption of the cheap products made there. As U.S. spending drops, they are going to be in a world of hurting and I don't see dh's job being secure if we move there and neither does he. Another one of the reasons that Thailand and Malaysia are high on the list is that their work visas are TIGHT! So, American workers can't flood the market. A company can only hire a foreign worker when it can prove it cannot hire someone in-country that is qualified for that position and they are pretty strict on what constitutes proof. They also do not maintain universities with good training programs for this profession which means that they don't have replacement workers for the U.S. worker unless a Thai or Malay citizen can afford a university degree from the U.S. or Europe. Most of the ex-pats we've corresponded with find that in dh's profession, the job is long term if the American wants it to be. Obviously, nothing is full-proof.

 

But again, we aren't moving yet. This is all about long-term planning, lots and lots of research, possible trips to check out these environments, lots of prayer, and several details to fall into place here including arrangements for MIL in our absence should her health tank.

 

Faith

[mcconnellboys]

On this topic, "The New Global Student," Maya Frost, is an interesting read for families considering taking their school age children abroad with them....

[CarolfromIL]

Hello,

 

Someone asked Rebekah (sp?) and I, who do not believe the US economy will recover any time soon and will definitely get worse, why we would consider leaving America. I wanted to respond to that question on my behalf. Hopefully, Rebekah will see this thread and do the same.

 

Dh and I have been studying empires in decline, historical trends, economic trends, etc. and all of this info points to an America where getting employed, staying employed, and meeting basic needs is only going to get tougher. America is in decline and it may very well be a permanent decline. Sorry if I am being a wet blanket, but it is what we believe.

 

We have three children to provide for, elderly relatives who are going to need money, a grand-niece whose parents are likely, within a year or two, to be unable to care for her financially even though they are doing a great job parenting her. These young parents have no skills, nothing marketable about them, and no meaningful education that can be used to keep them from abject poverty as the economy sinks. We believe that the debt/trade deficit is so vast that eventually the government will have to take austerity measures which means serious cuts in medicare/medicaid/food stamps/housing assistance as well as the end of farm subsidies (which will mean many people will lose the family farm because they have based their economic viability on that farm by the government paycheck and not growing crops for niche markets so they do not have to compete with Big AG), ethanol subsidies (which will likely put the largest employer in our county out of business), massive cuts in federal education monies which will trickle down to state budgets which will result in more teachers being fired and classrooms of 50-70 children similar to developing nations, pension cuts causing retired individuals to begin entering the work-force again thus driving wages down even more, cuts to the federal minimum wage (UGH!), etc. Every department of the government will end up being cut by the dictates of the WMF who now already controls our treaties because we've borrowed so much.

 

We feel very strongly about trying to help our relatives and dh's job isn't likely to get better. He already works 75-80 hrs. a week for no extra time off, no extra benefits, no pay raises. This is the new norm and as prices continue to inflate, our ability to help elderly relatives and assist in maintaining the needs of grand-niece are going to dwindle.

 

So, we are looking at where we can go and provide for our family while also sending money home. Currently in the running are Chanai (India), Bangladesh (sp?), Thailand, Malaysia, Brazil, and Singapore. Chanai, Bangladesh, and Brazil are possibilities within his own company. We are doing a lot of research to find out just what the costs of living are, best places to live, necessary funds to live comfortably though not extravagantly, homeschooling laws as ex-pats, etc.

 

Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore would be countries available to DH through another company. Thus far, Thailand is looking promising. We think we can winterize this house, paying the minimum in property insurance and selling all the vehicles plus maintaining the property tax, pay for a handyman to do things for dh's mother, send money to grand-niece's parents, and save college money for the boys while living in a gated community (nice, certainly not posh or high end), three bedroom townhouse that comes partially furnished, food, a part-time helper for grocery shopping and laundry (no laundry facilities in the gate community we are looking at), and home-school while providing necessities and some wants. But, the downside is that the new company would not be willing to send us over so we can spend a week or two really exploring and we don't have enough money in savings ($8000.00 roof currently in progress here) to do it ourselves. We are not comfortable, at this point, saying yes to the job and the move going into it "blind". This is why he is exloring other countries within his company.

 

Essentially, he needs to negotiate his current salary plus 30% and health benefits within the country. We also need to be in a city with an excellent, modern hospital with a good cardiac unit just in case ds ever had trouble with his heart again. Bangkok fits that bill well for us. But, current salary plus 25% and crappy health coverage is so far the norm for that company. We aren't looking to jump ship within the next month or two. We are willing to be patient and wait for the right offer and if that never happens, then it doesn't happen and we'll deal with it. However, we are actively looking to move internationally.

 

We would not be surrendering our U.S. citizenship. We want the ability to come home when necessary and we want the children to be able to come back to the states for college if we can afford it. We would be more like Heather and her husband in Malaysia....living and working indefinitely outside the U.S. as expats. We do believe that the economy is going to tank very, very badly here while others areas, particularly developing nations whose economies are not so globally based, will continue along.

 

Faith

 

 

Oh brother. Really?

[Mama Geek]

Oh brother. Really?

 

:confused:

 

They aren't the only ones thinking about it. Dh and I have talked about it for several years as well.

[LibraryLover]

Hey, nothing wrong with trying to stay ahead of the next Pol Pot, Stalin, Chariman Mao, or the inability to continue to hoard Gatorade and toothbrushes.

[FaithManor]

Oh brother. Really?

 

 

Well, that was a bit insulting. Seriously, I'm not certain why you would insult us for looking at stagnating wages - a fact, inflation - a fact, and higher cost of living - a fact, and knowing that we'd very much like to help our relatives who are facing some very tough financial times, look for a better economic situation so we can send money home.

 

My post was clear that we were trying to improve our economic standing in order to support (in particular) our grandniece who is not available for adoption and in dh's company, that can't be done stateside...at least not at this point.

 

:confused:

 

Faith

[FaithManor]

Hey, nothing wrong with trying to stay ahead of the next Pol Pot, Stalin, Chariman Mao, or the inability to continue to hoard Gatorade and toothbrushes.

 

 

Is that supposed to be a joke? I can't tell and I certainly didn't imply that I thought some crazy totalitarian regime was coming into power. I did say that wages stateside have permanently stagnated in dh's company and profession and that we want to help relatives in financial crisis and particularly our grandniece which means moving to a cheaper cost of living and making more money there. I'm not certain how that equate to hoarding Gatorade and toothbrushes?????

 

Faith

[cathmom]

On this topic, "The New Global Student," Maya Frost, is an interesting read for families considering taking their school age children abroad with them....

 

That was seriously the most annoying book I ever read! I couldn't stand her writing style!

[LidiyaDawn]

Oh brother. Really?

 

Nah, she just made it all up to amuse you. :w00t:

[CarolfromIL]

Well, that was a bit insulting. Seriously, I'm not certain why you would insult us for looking at stagnating wages - a fact, inflation - a fact, and higher cost of living - a fact, and knowing that we'd very much like to help our relatives who are facing some very tough financial times, look for a better economic situation so we can send money home.

 

My post was clear that we were trying to improve our economic standing in order to support (in particular) our grandniece who is not available for adoption and in dh's company, that can't be done stateside...at least not at this point.

 

:confused:

 

Faith

 

For me, aborting the country is not an option. I feel a patriotic sense of duty to our country and would never abandon it during recession. I don't know what part of the country you are in, but my husband has been promoted several times over the past few years and our neighbors are all doing very well for themselves. Several of the neighbor kids have landed with good jobs out of college and are on their way to a productive life. We are in a suburban area outside a large city----so maybe its different in the inner city or very rural locations.

[CarolfromIL]

Hey, nothing wrong with trying to stay ahead of the next Pol Pot, Stalin, Chariman Mao, or the inability to continue to hoard Gatorade and toothbrushes.

 

Yes. Stock up on 5 years worth of Ramen noodles and dig your self a bomb shelter in the back yard. Although people have been saying the country will collapse or whatever since the Cuban Missile crisis in the early 60's....and yet its 50 years later and we are all here. Hysteria solves nothing.

[Impish]

For me, aborting the country is not an option. I feel a patriotic sense of duty to our country and would never abandon it during recession. I don't know what part of the country you are in, but my husband has been promoted several times over the past few years and our neighbors are all doing very well for themselves. Several of the neighbor kids have landed with good jobs out of college and are on their way to a productive life. We are in a suburban area outside a large city----so maybe its different in the inner city or very rural locations.

Your reality isn't everyone's. Not by a long shot, if threads here are anything to go by.

 

Doing what is best for your family isn't always an easy decision, but staying where you know you won't be able to do what's needed isn't a great plan either.

[obsidian]

Yes. Stock up on 5 years worth of Ramen noodles and dig your self a bomb shelter in the back yard. Although people have been saying the country will collapse or whatever since the Cuban Missile crisis in the early 60's....and yet its 50 years later and we are all here. Hysteria solves nothing.

 

:confused:FaithManor is considering options. That does not sound like hysteria to me.:001_huh:

[LidiyaDawn]

I feel a patriotic sense of duty to our country and would never abandon it during recession.

 

I've never understood this - maybe it's because I'm not an American, maybe there's a different sort of..something…at work there…but I've never felt any kind of 'duty' (which to me shows an emotional connection) to a country. I do have a fondness for a specific province, but that's just because I like it a lot and have family there….I have no emotional connection to Canada - it's just where I happen to have been born.

 

Faith sounds like she's planning & preparing to take care of her family - why would anyone else care if she decides that caring for the the best means moving away? She's not packing you in her trunk. :tongue_smilie:

[Murphy101]

For me, aborting the country is not an option. I feel a patriotic sense of duty to our country and would never abandon it during recession. I don't know what part of the country you are in, but my husband has been promoted several times over the past few years and our neighbors are all doing very well for themselves. Several of the neighbor kids have landed with good jobs out of college and are on their way to a productive life. We are in a suburban area outside a large city----so maybe its different in the inner city or very rural locations.

 

Well yay for you!:D (sincerely said!)

 

My patriotism is not geographically based, but providing for my children very well might be.

 

You can afford being self righteousness when you don't suffer for it.

[LibraryLover]

Is that supposed to be a joke? I can't tell and I certainly didn't imply that I thought some crazy totalitarian regime was coming into power. I did say that wages stateside have permanently stagnated in dh's company and profession and that we want to help relatives in financial crisis and particularly our grandniece which means moving to a cheaper cost of living and making more money there. I'm not certain how that equate to hoarding Gatorade and toothbrushes?????

 

Faith

 

:chillpill: not directed at you in particular. Yet I will say that all the "let's bail" schemes im hearing at this point in time seems like whiny baby stuff said by people who don't know what real hardship is, or understand history. If that's not you, don't make it about you. I'm not against living abroad and widening ones experiences. In fact, i wish more Americans could afford to travel or travel out of their comfort zone. That would benefit us all as a nation.

 

But when I hear ( and if this is not you, I'm not talking about you) people who haven't even been to CN or Mexico coming up with escape plans because they didn't like Bush or dont like Obama, I cringe for them.

[FaithManor]

For me, aborting the country is not an option. I feel a patriotic sense of duty to our country and would never abandon it during recession. I don't know what part of the country you are in, but my husband has been promoted several times over the past few years and our neighbors are all doing very well for themselves. Several of the neighbor kids have landed with good jobs out of college and are on their way to a productive life. We are in a suburban area outside a large city----so maybe its different in the inner city or very rural locations.

 

Again, that might be the economy of your micro-culture and your husband's job, but it is not our reality. We are in Michigan...there are families in our town that are going hungry, there are elderly people who died because they couldn't pay their heat bill last year, etc. My husband's profession has been largely off-shored so opportunity for advancement or pay raise does not exist unless one is willing to manage an overseas team. That is our fact. We do live in a rural location and my husband works from home because all of his collegues sit in 11 different countries.

 

I am actually a very patriotic person. But, I can't put patriotism ahead of life. Dh's mother is soon going to require financial help and his sibs will contribute nothing. My grandniece's parents are trying to live off two part-time minimum wage jobs and they aren't qualified to do anything else nor can they afford college. The local community college just doubled it's tuition and financial aid was cut in half due to state funding cuts. Neither had good enough grades in high school to qualify for much in merit money anyway. The state of Michigan is very close to bankruptcy so the new budget that was just signed includes austerity measure cuts to public assistance.

 

Dh's company, one of only three major computer consulting companies left with operations in the U.S. has made it very, very clear that advancement and pay raises, reasonable work hours, etc. are for the off-shore workers and the American workers who move overseas. His job is secure; he won't lose it. He also won't get any pay raises and our health insurane premium is going up another $300.00 per month as of January 1. We can still afford that. But at some point, we aren't going to be able to help relatives if this continues.

 

I am glad for you that you live in a more economically prosperous environment and that your dh and family members work in growing fields. That's very nice.

 

Also, I did state in my original post that we weren't surrendering our citizenship. So, I'm not certain how that makes us any more unAmerican than military personal and government employees who live abroad.

 

Faith

[Embassy]

For me, aborting the country is not an option. I feel a patriotic sense of duty to our country and would never abandon it during recession. I don't know what part of the country you are in, but my husband has been promoted several times over the past few years and our neighbors are all doing very well for themselves. Several of the neighbor kids have landed with good jobs out of college and are on their way to a productive life. We are in a suburban area outside a large city----so maybe its different in the inner city or very rural locations.

 

This argument sounds vaguely familiar. Some insist I have a duty to keep my child in public school even if it is tanking.

 

My family left the USA in 2008 and it was an excellent move for us. There we no jobs where we were in the USA. Now I wonder why we didn't move sooner. The standard of living is much better for us here. I supposed that makes me a traitor:confused::confused:

[CarolfromIL]

I've never understood this - maybe it's because I'm not an American, maybe there's a different sort of..something…at work there…but I've never felt any kind of 'duty' (which to me shows an emotional connection) to a country. I do have a fondness for a specific province, but that's just because I like it a lot and have family there….I have no emotional connection to Canada - it's just where I happen to have been born.

 

Faith sounds like she's planning & preparing to take care of her family - why would anyone else care if she decides that caring for the the best means moving away? She's not packing you in her trunk. :tongue_smilie:

 

Its just my opinion or are only opinions that blindly support whatever the OP writes accepted?

[SailorMom]

There are definite warning signs of decline - especially for those of us who have studied ancient/classical history (almost done with my MA)...

I think something that will make this different, however, is the interconnected global economy.

Many, many countries are feeling this and it will be difficult to escape. I'm not saying it is impossible - just very difficult.

[stripe]

I don't know what part of the country you are in, but my husband has been promoted several times over the past few years and our neighbors are all doing very well for themselves. Several of the neighbor kids have landed with good jobs out of college and are on their way to a productive life. We are in a suburban area outside a large city----so maybe its different in the inner city or very rural locations.

I don't know a single soul in the US who is doing "well" except my retired relatives, and there seem to be a lot of bankers with no money problems, but regular people? Everyone I know is hurting. And hurting badly. Seriously. There are millons of Americans with advanced college degrees working crummy, low paying jobs, or no job at all, and people are suffering. Trying to find a viable , long term solution for your family sounds smart to me. But again, if you don't see the economic crisis firsthand, and the pain of not having a decent job for three years and no hope of improvement, then yes, I can understand your confusion.

[kiana]

Its just my opinion or are only opinions that blindly support whatever the OP writes accepted?

 

The problem with posting your opinion on a message board is that other people may disagree with your opinion. It sounds like you want the freedom to disagree with the OP without letting others have the freedom to in turn disagree with you.

[Murphy101]

This argument sounds vaguely familiar. Some insist I have a duty to keep my child in public school even if it is tanking.

 

My family left the USA in 2008 and it was an excellent move for us. There we no jobs where we were in the USA. Now I wonder why we didn't move sooner. The standard of living is much better for us here. I supposed that makes me a traitor:confused::confused:

 

And where did you go?:)

 

There are definite warning signs of decline - especially for those of us who have studied ancient/classical history (almost done with my MA)...

I think something that will make this different, however, is the interconnected global economy.

Many, many countries are feeling this and it will be difficult to escape. I'm not saying it is impossible - just very difficult.

 

 

I don't think anyone expects to escape.

I do think many people are thinking about how they can minimize the damage to their families, which is certainly a reasonable consideration.

[Perry]

Its just my opinion or are only opinions that blindly support whatever the OP writes accepted?

The problem is not your opinion, it's your tone.

[LibraryLover]

There are definite warning signs of decline - especially for those of us who have studied ancient/classical history (almost done with my MA)...

I think something that will make this different, however, is the interconnected global economy.

Many, many countries are feeling this and it will be difficult to escape. I'm not saying it is impossible - just very difficult.

 

Interconnected global economy. Yes.

 

Taking ones western money to go live better than most members of another country also seems disingenuous as a goal. Not that it doesn't happen, or that we can or should prevent it, or that it even can be helped in some cases, but it does smack of entitlement when that's the main goal. One can live better somewhere else because most often of the citizens are suffering on a grander scale than most Americans.

 

I'm sure I could live in a mansion in some parts of India, just as an example, but I might have to step over starving street children as I enter. In have expat friends who do speak of these experiences, and it does touch them. it changes them too, trod the better. I do hope people do decide to leave for for greener pastures learn and grow from their experiences.

Edited July 22, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Embassy]

And where did you go?:)

 

Some of my kids will answer that question

[AuntieM]

Yes. Stock up on 5 years worth of Ramen noodles and dig your self a bomb shelter in the back yard. Although people have been saying the country will collapse or whatever since the Cuban Missile crisis in the early 60's....and yet its 50 years later and we are all here. Hysteria solves nothing.

 

Hey Carol, welcome to the boards - I see you have less than 100 posts.

 

FaithManor is a well-informed, intelligent contributor to this forum. The only thing hysterical about her is her great sense of humor.

 

(ETA LL, you know I appreciate you, and your sense of humor, but I misread an earlier post and it doesn't make sense to include you here at this time as originally did. Clear as mud, no doubt...)

 

FWIW, dh and I, logistically, find ourselves in a position similar to yours as you describe it. But the math cannot be ignored. Just because our families don't feel the hardship, doesn't mean it's not there. And I don't think I'm less of a patriotic American just because I am willing to study the facts.

Edited July 22, 2011 by AuntieM

[Impish]

The problem with posting your opinion on a message board is that other people may disagree with your opinion. It sounds like you want the freedom to disagree with the OP without letting others have the freedom to in turn disagree with you.

:iagree:

The problem is not your opinion, it's your tone.

:iagree: