Murdochthread locked??? Someone asked me why I'd consider leaving the U.S./response

[LibraryLover]

In my mind, moving to CN doesn't count, nor do wealthy western nations. Nothing is cheap in any of those areas, and housing can be difficult to come by. In those areas, areas, ones standard of living is still going to be similar to your neighbors, more or less. . Your standard of living may change for the better, take the heat off, especially when one factors in affordable health care.

 

I don't think people are traitors when they want to leave. Not at all.Patriotism doesn't factor into anything I've said on this thread.

Edited July 22, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Murphy101]

Interconnected global economy. Yes.

 

Taking ones western money to go live better than most members of another country also seems disingenuous as a goal. Not that it doesn't happen, or that we can never prevent it, or that it even can be helped in some cases, but it does smack of entitlement when that's the main goal. One can live better somewhere else because most often of the citizens are suffering on a grander scale than most Americans.

 

:lol: So It would be better if those same Americans just kept their money in America? I'm betting the local citizens would rather strongly disagree that they'd be better off without any American influx of funds. Or is your argument that Americans should just give them the money?

 

What entitlement? You say entitlement as though they are wanting something for nothing - a charity or welfare. Entitlement is not welfare, contrary to what our country might say. Entitlement means rightly owed. If I pay into SS, yes, I should be entitled to SS when I meet the requirement to be PAID back what I was forced by law to invest in. If I am approved and make timely payments on my mortgage, I am entitled to live in my selected home.

[AngelBee]

For me, aborting the country is not an option. I feel a patriotic sense of duty to our country and would never abandon it during recession. I don't know what part of the country you are in, but my husband has been promoted several times over the past few years and our neighbors are all doing very well for themselves. Several of the neighbor kids have landed with good jobs out of college and are on their way to a productive life. We are in a suburban area outside a large city----so maybe its different in the inner city or very rural locations.

Well we are in a nice suburb outside of the Twin Cities in MN and are at poverty level.

 

My husband is a VERY hard worker and is under employed in his field. He has debated even cooking to have more steady pay. I am a business owner who is not making a profit at this point due to the nature of our business. We have been in business for going on 11 years.

 

Please be grateful that you are in a good place. Not all others are. And it is not reserved for inner city and rural people. Just look up the foreclosures going on in our country. It is happening primarily in suburbs.

[AngelBee]

Is Canada really cheaper to live in than the US?

 

I would assume we are about the same. I live in MN, so Canada is our neighbors. :)

[CarolfromIL]

 

Also, I did state in my original post that we weren't surrendering our citizenship. So, I'm not certain how that makes us any more unAmerican than military personal and government employees who live abroad.

 

Faith

 

Are you kidding? You fail to mention in your first post that America is most likely in a permanent decline and compared it to a falling empire. Now you compare yourself to patriotic military families? Yikes....

[LibraryLover]

I don't want to go back and fix all mybtypos, but I wonder if I will ever be able to type well on the iPad? :tongue_smilie:

[Impish]

Is Canada really cheaper to live in than the US?

 

I would assume we are about the same. I live in MN, so Canada is our neighbors. :)

I'm honestly not sure.

 

We don't have the health care costs you do. In comparing what we pay in taxes vs insurance payments per month (not including copays) we keep more of our income.

 

Some places in Canada are cheaper to live, some are way more $$$.

[CarolfromIL]

I don't know a single soul in the US who is doing "well" except my retired relatives, and there seem to be a lot of bankers with no money problems, but regular people? Everyone I know is hurting. And hurting badly. Seriously. There are millons of Americans with advanced college degrees working crummy, low paying jobs, or no job at all, and people are suffering. Trying to find a viable , long term solution for your family sounds smart to me. But again, if you don't see the economic crisis firsthand, and the pain of not having a decent job for three years and no hope of improvement, then yes, I can understand your confusion.

 

 

You don't know anyone who is doing well? You know the DOW is at 12684 today. People are actually employed (vs. robots) at these companies. There are large cities with office buildings staffed with thousands of workers.

 

To listen to your post, its like your saying its the early 1930's and everyone is out pan handling. Please....

[CarolfromIL]

The problem with posting your opinion on a message board is that other people may disagree with your opinion. It sounds like you want the freedom to disagree with the OP without letting others have the freedom to in turn disagree with you.

 

Nope feel free to disagree with me, as long as I can disagree with you. Thats what America is all about and what makes it a wonderful country.

[Aelwydd]

Hello,

 

Someone asked Rebekah (sp?) and I, who do not believe the US economy will recover any time soon and will definitely get worse, why we would consider leaving America. I wanted to respond to that question on my behalf. Hopefully, Rebekah will see this thread and do the same.

 

Dh and I have been studying empires in decline, historical trends, economic trends, etc. and all of this info points to an America where getting employed, staying employed, and meeting basic needs is only going to get tougher. America is in decline and it may very well be a permanent decline. Sorry if I am being a wet blanket, but it is what we believe.

 

We have three children to provide for, elderly relatives who are going to need money, a grand-niece whose parents are likely, within a year or two, to be unable to care for her financially even though they are doing a great job parenting her. These young parents have no skills, nothing marketable about them, and no meaningful education that can be used to keep them from abject poverty as the economy sinks. We believe that the debt/trade deficit is so vast that eventually the government will have to take austerity measures which means serious cuts in medicare/medicaid/food stamps/housing assistance as well as the end of farm subsidies (which will mean many people will lose the family farm because they have based their economic viability on that farm by the government paycheck and not growing crops for niche markets so they do not have to compete with Big AG), ethanol subsidies (which will likely put the largest employer in our county out of business), massive cuts in federal education monies which will trickle down to state budgets which will result in more teachers being fired and classrooms of 50-70 children similar to developing nations, pension cuts causing retired individuals to begin entering the work-force again thus driving wages down even more, cuts to the federal minimum wage (UGH!), etc. Every department of the government will end up being cut by the dictates of the WMF who now already controls our treaties because we've borrowed so much.

 

We feel very strongly about trying to help our relatives and dh's job isn't likely to get better. He already works 75-80 hrs. a week for no extra time off, no extra benefits, no pay raises. This is the new norm and as prices continue to inflate, our ability to help elderly relatives and assist in maintaining the needs of grand-niece are going to dwindle.

 

So, we are looking at where we can go and provide for our family while also sending money home. Currently in the running are Chanai (India), Bangladesh (sp?), Thailand, Malaysia, Brazil, and Singapore. Chanai, Bangladesh, and Brazil are possibilities within his own company. We are doing a lot of research to find out just what the costs of living are, best places to live, necessary funds to live comfortably though not extravagantly, homeschooling laws as ex-pats, etc.

 

Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore would be countries available to DH through another company. Thus far, Thailand is looking promising. We think we can winterize this house, paying the minimum in property insurance and selling all the vehicles plus maintaining the property tax, pay for a handyman to do things for dh's mother, send money to grand-niece's parents, and save college money for the boys while living in a gated community (nice, certainly not posh or high end), three bedroom townhouse that comes partially furnished, food, a part-time helper for grocery shopping and laundry (no laundry facilities in the gate community we are looking at), and home-school while providing necessities and some wants. But, the downside is that the new company would not be willing to send us over so we can spend a week or two really exploring and we don't have enough money in savings ($8000.00 roof currently in progress here) to do it ourselves. We are not comfortable, at this point, saying yes to the job and the move going into it "blind". This is why he is exloring other countries within his company.

 

Essentially, he needs to negotiate his current salary plus 30% and health benefits within the country. We also need to be in a city with an excellent, modern hospital with a good cardiac unit just in case ds ever had trouble with his heart again. Bangkok fits that bill well for us. But, current salary plus 25% and crappy health coverage is so far the norm for that company. We aren't looking to jump ship within the next month or two. We are willing to be patient and wait for the right offer and if that never happens, then it doesn't happen and we'll deal with it. However, we are actively looking to move internationally.

 

We would not be surrendering our U.S. citizenship. We want the ability to come home when necessary and we want the children to be able to come back to the states for college if we can afford it. We would be more like Heather and her husband in Malaysia....living and working indefinitely outside the U.S. as expats. We do believe that the economy is going to tank very, very badly here while others areas, particularly developing nations whose economies are not so globally based, will continue along.

 

Faith

 

Faith, glad you started this thread! I already PM'd coffeefreak with a short answer last night. So, basically, :iagree::iagree::iagree: with everything you wrote.

 

 

The only difference is that John and I do not feel patriotism for the US. I love the land, itself, and I feel concern for the people living here. But I am not a "US is best! Yay, go America!" person.

 

If others find that difficult to understand, please know I have always found it difficult to find pride in a country that was born on the back of slavery, built on pilfered land belonging to another people, and forged in the fires of rebellion. I cannot divorce that America from the America that exists today.

 

Today, we still have deeply rooted racism, and an economic slavery that is making it ever more difficult for the middle class to accumulate wealth. Instead, the middle class is accumulating debt, while the richest Americans pay politicians to run the country the way they see fit.

 

There are several other reasons for why I don't feel national pride, but suffice it to say, dh and I have deep ideological differences with our country.

 

We are looking to move to Canada. Though its economy is strongly linked to the US', the last few years have shown that it is quite capable of sustaining a strong economy while the US stagnates. There is also the small matter of the huge amounts of oil sands that, should the US decide it no longer wants to (or can) buy, China would love to buy. Canada has many other resources to sustain it as well; so I feel that it would weather future economic crises pretty well.

 

Furthermore, our values align with Canada's much more closely. It is a more egalitarian society (especially Quebec), and it is much more liberal socially. It has avoided becoming the police state that the US looks more like every day. Its people affirm the value of universal health care, and it enjoys an excellent public school system.

 

The process of becoming of citizen takes 3 years, and we are likely to surrender our US citizenship at that juncture. We have no desire to continue to be under the thumb of the IRS for the remainder of our lives, nor have it swoop down to take ds' inheritance when we die, when we'd been living as Canadian citizens for many years. Canadian citizenship is more than adequate to gain admittance into the US to visit friends and family, and it's preferable to have when traveling overseas, given how many negative feelings the US has stirred up abroad. Canadians, on the other hand, are generally well-regarded, especially in Europe.

 

I know to many people, my way of thinking is probably anathema, and that I'm a traitor. But, I have to tell you, I'm a Christian, who feels that my values (caring for the poor, turning the other cheek, etc.) are constantly under assault in this society. IMO, the US is all about "Who wants to be a millionaire?" and if the freedom to attain that goal means sacrificing the safety nets for the poor (and the middle class, and the seniors, and...), then so be it.

 

I don't want my son assimilating those and other values. I don't want him internalizing the culture of violence that is prevalent here. I don't want him learning an American-centric view of history that lauds her militaristic prowess and ignores her crimes.

 

But mostly, I don't want to spend the rest of my life defending these and other such views to other Americans who say, "Well, if you don't like it, why don't you just leave then?"

 

I could stay and fight for my liberal views, but I've been called "un-American" already for what I believe. I figure if that's what I'm going to be charged with, I might as well make it true.

[mama2cntrykids]

For me, aborting the country is not an option. I feel a patriotic sense of duty to our country and would never abandon it during recession. I don't know what part of the country you are in, but my husband has been promoted several times over the past few years and our neighbors are all doing very well for themselves. Several of the neighbor kids have landed with good jobs out of college and are on their way to a productive life. We are in a suburban area outside a large city----so maybe its different in the inner city or very rural locations.

 

That's great that where you are is doing so well:001_smile:. Where we live, it's terribly difficult to *find* a decent job. Unless you have specific training, even then they want years of experience. And yes, we are in a very rural part of the country.;)

[CarolfromIL]

Hey Carol, welcome to the boards - I see you have less than 100 posts.

 

FaithManor is a well-informed, intelligent contributor to this forum. The only thing hysterical about her is her great sense of humor.

 

(ETA LL, you know I appreciate you, and your sense of humor, but I misread an earlier post and it doesn't make sense to include you here at this time as originally did. Clear as mud, no doubt...)

 

FWIW, dh and I, logistically, find ourselves in a position similar to yours as you describe it. But the math cannot be ignored. Just because our families don't feel the hardship, doesn't mean it's not there. And I don't think I'm less of a patriotic American just because I am willing to study the facts.

 

Thanks for pointing out I have less than 100 posts. I guess thats your way of trying to discredit me. I would say that my time on the board is limited and do not post that often because I am actually spending time home schooling my children. I do not have time to write 3700 posts as my children's education would suffer.

[HRAAB]

You don't know anyone who is doing well? You know the DOW is at 12684 today. People are actually employed (vs. robots) at these companies. There are large cities with office buildings staffed with thousands of workers.

 

To listen to your post, its like your saying its the early 1930's and everyone is out pan handling. Please....

 

It is helpful when engaging in a discussion to be able to step out of your shoes for a moment and try to view the world through another's perspective. Your perspective is not mine. Do I know anyone who is doing well? Yes. A couple of families. Do I know people who are not doing well? Yes. Quite a few more than a couple. That doesn't mean we are starving or on the street, but doing well? No. Our area has just suffered several more major layoffs, and new jobs are not keeping up with the layoffs. And we're not in a small, rural area.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Ishki

[LibraryLover]

Some Americans are thriving and some are suffering. I see some short sales around here, but down the street from me, a new huge Mega mansion development has gone up. 25 or so homes? All under agreement, and more people on the list to build. I some people have been able to buy and invest in this down time. It's a regional issue. Some people are doing well, more are not. If we had better safety nets in the US. Health care! We could probably as a nation, better weather these periodic storms.

Edited July 22, 2011 by LibraryLover

[kiana]

Are you kidding? You fail to mention in your first post that America is most likely in a permanent decline and compared it to a falling empire. Now you compare yourself to patriotic military families? Yikes....

 

Are you seriously saying that thinking that America may be failing is unpatriotic?

 

Societies that grow too large collapse; this has happened throughout human civilization, and no society endures forever.

[Impish]

Thanks for pointing out I have less than 100 posts. I guess thats your way of trying to discredit me. I would say that my time on the board is limited and do not post that often because I am actually spending time home schooling my children. I do not have time to write 3700 posts as my children's education would suffer.

*eyeroll*

[LibraryLover]

Are you seriously saying that thinking that America may be failing is unpatriotic?

 

Societies that grow too large collapse; this has happened throughout human civilization, and no society endures forever.

 

Everything changes, and sometimes even for the greater good ( and sometimes not. ;)). The Roman Empire came to an end, sure, but the people didn't disappear. The regrouped and went on. :)

[Aelwydd]

Are you kidding? You fail to mention in your first post that America is most likely in a permanent decline and compared it to a falling empire. Now you compare yourself to patriotic military families? Yikes....

 

Citing a diagnosis does not make her automatically un-patriotic. All empires decline. That is the truth. Recognizing that fact hardly equates a lack of patriotism on her part.

 

Now me, on the other hand--yes, definitely un-patriotic here. I don't care if the US was booming and on the rise, or not. We're not staying.

[Aelwydd]

Societies that grow too large collapse; this has happened throughout human civilization, and no society endures forever.

 

Aye.

[kiana]

Everything changes, and sometimes even for the greater good ( and sometimes not. ;)). The Roman Empire came to an end, sure, but the people didn't disappear. The regrouped and went on. :)

 

I do not disagree with you at all. :)

[Sahamamama]

I don't think anyone expects to escape.

 

I do expect to escape. I'm pre-Trib. :D

[LibraryLover]

I do not disagree with you at all. :)

 

Which takes me right back to my first statement on this thread. It makes sense to me, even if it offends and/ or confounds others. ;) :)

 

The world is constantly changing, constantly in flux. Trying to outrun change, fear change, predict change is quite the challenge.

 

I do hope more people will be able experience living or travelling to other parts of the world. That is a wonderful thing to be able to do.

Edited July 22, 2011 by LibraryLover

[nmoira]

I do not have time to write 3700 posts as my children's education would suffer.

:lol:

 

Thanks, I needed that... it's been a tough day.

[LibraryLover]

:lol:

 

Thanks, I needed that... it's been a tough day.

 

I honestly wish it was not 100 degrees outside with stifling humidity. I never feel good about myself when I spend too much time here. I am really not proud of my post count.

 

I stay for the kilts. :lol:

Edited July 22, 2011 by LibraryLover

[coffeefreak]

It was me, Faithmanor :) I didn't read all the pages on this thread, but I wanted to thank you for responding. I really don't don't condemn or look unfavorably on anyone who feels they would identify with another country's values better. I look at is as if you're moving to a different state, or even switching schools or churches. Everyone has to decide what's best for their family. As a matter of fact, I would move to Europe with my family in a heartbeat! I seriously asked for the sake of discourse. I often wonder what brought my ancestors here, and I wonder why takes people away. I view it as an interesting discussion.

 

I'll read the rest of the thread now:D

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Thanks for pointing out I have less than 100 posts. I guess thats your way of trying to discredit me. I would say that my time on the board is limited and do not post that often because I am actually spending time home schooling my children. I do not have time to write 3700 posts as my children's education would suffer.

 

:smilielol5:

[FaithManor]

Are you kidding? You fail to mention in your first post that America is most likely in a permanent decline and compared it to a falling empire. Now you compare yourself to patriotic military families? Yikes....

 

 

I never said I was military. Wow. Just wow!

 

So apparently being honest about America's faults is unpatriotic. Americans are supposed to remain silent about it's problems???? I'm not exactly certain how that is supposed to help. Additionally, I don't know when patriotism became such a religion that seeking to do what is best for one's family is a lower priority than loyalty to government. America would still be British if this were the case.

 

I did mention permanent decline. Yes, I did. Based on historical precedent. I never said collapse, I never hinted at some sort of "horde of barbarians" descending into D.C. like the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths and sacking the empire. But, an economy based on debt and unlimited consumerism is not sustainable so yes, there will be permanent decline. I'm not saying to a poverty level for everyone or major catastrophe; however rapid growth which is what produced the Post-War heydays for the U.S. is not a sustainable economic model.

 

I don't think you and I define patriotism or prioritize the same way and that may well be part of the communication problem.

 

Faith

[stripe]

You don't know anyone who is doing well? You know the DOW is at 12684 today. People are actually employed (vs. robots) at these companies. There are large cities with office buildings staffed with thousands of workers.

 

To listen to your post, its like your saying its the early 1930's and everyone is out pan handling. Please....

I do not know anyone who is doing well, not that I don't know anyone with a job. Having a crummy job is not the same as doing well. Having a job where the salary and benefits were just cut drastically, is not, in my opinion, doing well. Although I am sure the CEOs are doing just fine.

 

You said Faith was wrong to consider moving outside the US to work with the same company, because everyone you know is doing dandy. I don't see your life as being in great alignment to the facts of the economy.

 

When my post talks, what does its voice sound like?

[FaithManor]

It was me, Faithmanor :) I didn't read all the pages on this thread, but I wanted to thank you for responding. I really don't don't condemn or look unfavorably on anyone who feels they would identify with another country's values better. I look at is as if you're moving to a different state, or even switching schools or churches. Everyone has to decide what's best for their family. As a matter of fact, I would move to Europe with my family in a heartbeat! I seriously asked for the sake of discourse. I often wonder what brought my ancestors here, and I wonder why takes people away. I view it as an interesting discussion.

 

I'll read the rest of the thread now:D

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

 

Hi Dorinda, Thanks for asking. Ultimately, I think this type of thread can be very enlightening. I should have p.m'ed you so there wouldn't be a kerfuffle, I was just having trouble wading through the Murdoch thread when I came back to find out who it was who had asked. That thread got rather long.

 

The interesting thing is that we aren't considering leaving because we are anti-American, though I've definitely been accused of that, or because we even align ourselves better with the values of another country, though I can certainly understand why people might feel that way. It's just that though dh has job security, the nature of that job is exhausting under the current model. All of his co-workers have been off-shored. He keeps crazy hours, long hours, etc. and his wages are permanently stagnated. The one American team in his company that is still eligible for wage increases is one that he is qualified to join. His manager blocked his attempt to get on that team because they don't want to lose him off this global account. For our family, economically and also concerning time spent with daddy, moving off-shore makes sense and that remains true even if he doesn't stay with this company because it is the nature of the global computer business these days. If you look at the structure of his company internally, he isn't even listed as an American employee. He's considered a team member from Chanai, India even though he sits in America. It's the nature of the beast. We don't like it; we do have to live with it.

 

So, I can't say that I'd go to Thailand, or Malaysia, or Singapore, or Brazil because it's a better fit for our values...not at all. I can say that it may give us the opportunity to spend more time with him and send money home to relatives who really need it and in particular a soon-to-be one year old niece whose parents are struggling to buy groceries in a state that just signed into law drastic cuts to public assistance.

 

Faith

[Murphy101]

Thanks for pointing out I have less than 100 posts. I guess thats your way of trying to discredit me. I would say that my time on the board is limited and do not post that often because I am actually spending time home schooling my children. I do not have time to write 3700 posts as my children's education would suffer.

 

Actually it was a very diplomatic way of saying you don't know the posters well or you would be aware that your opinion of them is unfounded.

 

If you are having difficulties educating your children and having logical discussions here, then there are several threads you can glean from on how to be better organized with your time.

 

I'm not known for tiptoeing through discussions, but this board is actually fairly tolerant of me, so there is some hope for you too.:D

 

Are you seriously saying that thinking that America may be failing is unpatriotic?

 

Societies that grow too large collapse; this has happened throughout human civilization, and no society endures forever.

 

:iagree:

 

I do expect to escape. I'm pre-Trib. :D

 

*snort*:lol:

[FaithManor]

I honestly wish it was not 100 degrees outside with stifling humidity. I never feel good about myself when I spend too much time here. I am really not proud of my post count.

 

I stay for the kilts. :lol:

 

 

Well, God bless you for saying it because with the heat index today, we need some good kilts!!!!!! :D Hey, do they make air-conditioned kilts? :bigear:

 

Faith

[Aelwydd]

You said Faith was wrong to consider moving outside the US to work with the same company, because everyone you know is doing dandy. I don't see your life as being in great alignment to the facts of the economy.

 

Well, you know, it's hard to stay captain of the boat, and living it up in first class, if all the help down below ain't content do to the rowing anymore.

 

So, let's call them all un-patriotic for abandoning ship.

[kiana]

Well, God bless you for saying it because with the heat index today, we need some good kilts!!!!!! :D Hey, do they make air-conditioned kilts? :bigear:

 

Faith

 

Kilts are naturally ventilated, so at least you get a breeze. :D