shinyhappypeople Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 This isn't happening in the church I currently take the girls to, so it's more of a hypothetical WWYD, or maybe a "What Would You Have Done." Senior pastor regularly seen grabbing teenage girl in "bear hugs" and not letting her go, kissing her all over her face (not on the mouth), holding her so she can't get away, and making jokes like, "I wish I were single, so I could ask you out on a date, ha, ha" I think about this in terms of it happening to my girls and the mama bear in me roars. But, maybe I'm too sensitive and blowing things out of proportion. Would it bother you if it happened to your daughter? Would the age of the pastor matter? Why or why not? Thanks for helping me think this through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeBeaks Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I would have hated it as a kid and would not let my DD be subjected to it honestly, no matter the age of the pastor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 It would *really* bother me if a pastor were acting this way toward any woman. It is not at all appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhomemaker25 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 It would not fly around here. My DH would have a fit! I would too, but he is super protective towards our girls. He saw a guy that he thought was leering at our oldest daughter once at church, and never let him within a foot of our girls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) Completely, unequivocally, universally inappropriate. If it were my daughter we would have 1- had to explain to the police why I beat the snot out of a full grown man (almost joking) 2- reported him to all available church authorities 3- found a new church (unless he was being removed and all other lay leadership was as outraged as we were) Edited July 14, 2011 by BLA5 Too shocked to give a coherant answer the first time around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie in AR Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I can't think of any situation where this behavior would be appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 The difference in age, authority, and power between the two makes this sexual harassment. Furthermore, "I wish I were single" is a terrible witness in a spiritual leader who presumably is performing marriage ceremonies, doing premarital counselling, and such. If our pastor did this, I'd be quietly looking for another church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Peach Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I can't think of any situation where this behavior would be appropriate. :iagree: Inappropriate for a man of any occupation or any age to do to anyone. I am confused as to why anyone would think otherwise. :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 The difference in age, authority, and power between the two makes this sexual harassment. Furthermore, "I wish I were single" is a terrible witness in a spiritual leader who presumably is performing marriage ceremonies, doing premarital counselling, and such. If our pastor did this, I'd be quietly looking for another church. I think you could take all those factors out and it would still be sexual harassment. I too would look for a new church but probably NOT quietly. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 If it wasn't a pastor but a man in some other position, would you even be asking the question ? Inappropriate is inappropriate. It doesn't matter if it's a teacher, coach, pastor, grandfather, uncle, neighbor, police officer, counselor, whatever, of any age. It's inappropriate. The man should be told in no uncertain terms to stop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I can't think of any situation where this behavior would be appropriate. :iagree: In fact, I would be concerned about a lack of reaction by those who observe this behavior and don't address it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayfaring Stranger Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I was driving through our local Christian college campus yesterday and saw a kid (I think he was a college age camp councilor) walking down the street with a shirt on that said "free hugs." :ack2: I already do not trust him and I have never even meet him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I agree. I'd speak to the man, whoever he was, no matter his position. (In private, and if it didn't stop, I'd take it much further.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Ummm...NO! Totally inappropriate and just gross. If I were his wife, I would be inclined to grant him his wish of being single. If I were a member of his congregation, I would report him to the church leadership, and make sure others were aware of his behavior and that he was disciplined. And like someone else said, I would leave the church, loudly. If I were the girl's mother, I would tell him what a sorry pervert he is right after my husband jacked him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I can't think of any situation where this behavior would be appropriate. :iagree: I'd be wondering where the heck the teen's parents are! Wolf would have handed the guy his butt the FIRST time he put hands on our dd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I can't think of any situation where this behavior would be appropriate. Ditto. If it wasn't a pastor but a man in some other position, would you even be asking the question ? Inappropriate is inappropriate. It doesn't matter if it's a teacher, coach, pastor, grandfather, uncle, neighbor, police officer, counselor, whatever, of any age. It's inappropriate. The man should be told in no uncertain terms to stop it. Absolutely. In fact, I would be concerned about a lack of reaction by those who observe this behavior and don't address it. Ditto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkacademy Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 :iagree: I'd be wondering where the heck the teen's parents are! Wolf would have handed the guy his butt the FIRST time he put hands on our dd. Well in my case it would be Jack not Wolf but yeah, what she said!!! I would be upset even if it weren't my daughters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ma23peas Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 :iagree: Inappropriate for a man of any occupation or any age to do to anyone. I am confused as to why anyone would think otherwise. :confused: :iagree::iagree::iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest momk2000 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I would find a new church. That is inappropriate behavior, especially for a pastor. If it were happening to my dd, I would report it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kchara Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 My rational mind says I should probably handle it Biblically, going to him first, then to the elders if that didn't work, then on up. Realistically, though, that would creep me out beyond belief. It's highly inappropriate, and I would absolutely find another church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dulcimeramy Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Ummm...NO! Totally inappropriate and just gross. If I were his wife, I would be inclined to grant him his wish of being single. If I were a member of his congregation, I would report him to the church leadership, and make sure others were aware of his behavior and that he was disciplined. And like someone else said, I would leave the church, loudly. If I were the girl's mother, I would tell him what a sorry pervert he is right after my husband jacked him up. :iagree: I'd be wondering where the heck the teen's parents are! Wolf would have handed the guy his butt the FIRST time he put hands on our dd. Yeah. Parents shouldn't give passes to perverts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dulcimeramy Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Also, I have to agree with Sophia. What kind of a cult is this dude running that the rest of the churchgoers have all agreed to put up with this behavior? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) :iagree: Inappropriate for a man of any occupation or any age to do to anyone. I am confused as to why anyone would think otherwise. :confused: Me, too. If I saw the pastor of the church I take the girls to say or do anything like that to one of them, he'd be unemployed by the end of the day. *** Edited out personal information. Thanks for the feedback and support. I feel weird leaving this info up here, though. *** Edited July 14, 2011 by shinyhappypeople Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 If I were his wife, I would be inclined to grant him his wish of being single. His wife stopped attending church altogether a few years prior. Don't blame her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Completely, unequivocally, universally inappropriate. If it were my daughter we would have 1- had to explain to the police why I beat the snot out of a full grown man (almost joking) 2- reported him to all available church authorities 3- found a new church (unless he was being removed and all other lay leadership was as outraged as we were) :iagree: Nothing more to say. I just completely agree. I would not tolerate it for even a minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 This isn't happening in the church I currently take the girls to, so it's more of a hypothetical WWYD, or maybe a "What Would You Have Done." Senior pastor regularly seen grabbing teenage girl in "bear hugs" and not letting her go, kissing her all over her face (not on the mouth), holding her so she can't get away, and making jokes like, "I wish I were single, so I could ask you out on a date, ha, ha" I think about this in terms of it happening to my girls and the mama bear in me roars. But, maybe I'm too sensitive and blowing things out of proportion. Would it bother you if it happened to your daughter? Very much. Would the age of the pastor matter? No. Why or why not? If he's old enough to be a pastor then he's old enough to know this is completely inappropriate. Thanks for helping me think this through. WWID? I would confront him first. I would tell him that he needs to stop doing this, that his behavior is a stumbling block for her and possibly for those he has married &tc. If he did it again, I would confront him with two or more fellow church members, preferably elders or deacons. If it continued then I would ask for a special congregational meeting to vote on whether or not this person should continue to be considered a member of the church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 His wife stopped attending church altogether a few years prior. Don't blame her. And he is STILL a pastor? What denomination is this? If a man does not have the respect of his own wife, why in the world is he still a preacher? The leadership should have removed him, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVA Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 The difference in age, authority, and power between the two makes this sexual harassment. Furthermore, "I wish I were single" is a terrible witness in a spiritual leader who presumably is performing marriage ceremonies, doing premarital counselling, and such. If our pastor did this, I'd be quietly looking for another church. I wouldn't be QUIET. I'd go right to the Elder board/church council or whatever the ruling/government entity is and make a formal complaint. If they would not do anything about him, then I'd either go to the rest of the body or the media. He is predatory and it will only escalate. You can be certain what you saw was not an isolated event. I don't even think you need to be a member to go to the board. You witnessed it, as well as others, so you should inform them and demand action. All young girls are in danger. His poor wife. His poor kids. I feel badly for that young woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoforjoy Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I agree it's totally inappropriate. Depending on the dynamics of the church, though, I'd probably be more likely to go to the girl than to the pastor (and whether I'd talk to him or not, I'd talk to her first). Because that's a really crappy, confusing situation for a teen girl to be in, especially if everybody else around her is just acting like nothing weird was happening. I'd probably just pull her aside if I could, let her know that I saw what was going on and that I didn't think it was okay, and see if there was anything I could do to help her (talking to her parents with or for her, talking to the pastor, staying near her when the pastor was likely to do it, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelotmom Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 We'd be reporting it to everywhere appropriate, and look for another church if it was not addressed by the removal of the pastor in a timely manner. I'm not going to trust that he's not just being more discrete about his sexual harassment if he remained there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I want to tell him for one specific reason: I need to hear him say that it was inexcusable of my former "pastor," and that he would take a firm stand if anything like that ever happened under his watch. I need to hear that so I can feel safer at his church. If you need that, I'd tell him the story. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 OK, next phase of WWYD: Should I tell anyone now? I've been having long discussions with the pastor of the church my girls go to about various things (mostly general "how does your church operate" kinds of things, plus he knows I have very high anxiety at church), but he doesn't know about this. I think it would be appropriate to talk to your current pastor about this. If it were me, I would do so with my husband present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 His wife stopped attending church altogether a few years prior. Don't blame her. Oh, I wasn't blaming her at all! That's not what I meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 And he is STILL a pastor? What denomination is this? If a man does not have the respect of his own wife, why in the world is he still a preacher? The leadership should have removed him, imo. No, he passed away a few years ago, and retired in the mid-1990s. It's a non-denominational church. The church is currently on their 3rd or 4th pastor in 15 years. I'm under the impression that there are many of the same lay leaders there, but most of the congregation eventually left for various reasons. This church has a loooong history of dysfunction and pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Oh, I wasn't blaming her at all! That's not what I meant. I know. I completely agree with you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i.love.lucy Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I think it would be appropriate to talk to your current pastor about this.If it were me, I would do so with my husband present. :iagree: I think it's good to discuss this. It was a trauma you experienced. It was real, it created anxiety about church for you. I can't imagine that your current pastor would not want to know this and help counsel you through this, with your husband present. Just because something bad happened to you years ago doesn't now make you slutty! If you look around in that church there are many broken and hurting people. Let your church help heal you so you can put those experiences in their proper place and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 No, he passed away a few years ago, and retired in the mid-1990s. It's a non-denominational church. The church is currently on their 3rd or 4th pastor in 15 years. I'm under the impression that there are many of the same lay leaders there, but most of the congregation eventually left for various reasons. This church has a loooong history of dysfunction and pain. One of the challenges of the nondenominational churches is that they often don't have a clear path to correction in a situation like this. I admire those that can stay on track, but usually from what I have seen that has more to do with the outstanding character of a particular pastor than with the organizational structure or God's leading. It also is hard to transition to another leader when it's time to do that. I think that it's admirable when Christians step into those kinds of situations and try to mediate...for instance, the attempted mediation between Ken Ham/AIG and the conference leaders by a third party group. Denominations have their problems as well, of course, serious ones--but they do tend to have a set escalation structure, and that can be a benefit...or a curse, thinking now of coverups by large hierarchical structures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 :iagree: I think it's good to discuss this. It was a trauma you experienced. It was real, it created anxiety about church for you. I can't imagine that your current pastor would not want to know this and help counsel you through this, with your husband present. Just because something bad happened to you years ago doesn't now make you slutty! If you look around in that church there are many broken and hurting people. Let your church help heal you so you can put those experiences in their proper place and move on. Lucy and all who have posted... thanks for taking this seriously and being so supportive. It's always notable when the hive agrees unanimously on anything ;) I'm not interested in any type of pastoral counseling thing with him, I just need to hear him say that he'd take it seriously and see, in as much detail as possible, the procedures for dealing with things like this. If y'all are interested, I'll post an update when I have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandymom Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I want to tell him for one specific reason: I need to hear him say that it was inexcusable of my former "pastor," and that he would take a firm stand if anything like that ever happened under his watch. I need to hear that so I can feel safer at his church. DDs' pastor has NEVER hit on me or been in any way inappropriate, but I think that if I say something it will make me look... I don't know... I guess kind of slutty and bad. I think he'll stop speaking to me, because this would be obvious proof that I'm off my rocker. I'm afraid he won't want to know me anymore. PLUS... the former "pastor" (the dirty old man) was a "big teddy bear" and it seems like everyone loved him. What if I tell this guy (pastor of DDs' church) and he thinks I'm making it up or over-reacting? I can't even articulate how much that would hurt. What was done to you was entirely wrong, and abuse of the role that man was given. It was absolutely NOT your fault and says nothing about you as a person. I do not care if a person has the title "Pastor", he didn't just overstep his bounds, he went totally outside of any authority that God gave him as pastor and abused a member of his church. It was more than just inappropriate, it was totally wrong! You have NOTHING to feel guilty about! I do believe confronting it and healing from it is a very healthy thing to do. God promises to work all things together for good, but sometimes it takes a lot of work to get there. :001_smile: If your dd's pastor is truly a man who seeks God, his immediate reaction would be just the same as the reactions that we are all having here. If it is not, I would find another church for my children and myself. Churches are made up of sinful people...we all make mistakes. But a healthy church is one that is quick to walk in loving truth to gently restore its members when they fall. It certainly doesn't stand back and allow pastors to abuse the flock. Pastors are human too and make mistakes, but it doesn't mean that they don't need to be held accountable too. They have an even GREATER responsibility to have people around them that hold them accountable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 this situation would bother me because of the kissing. that said i have more of an issue with the pastor who sees every women as a sexual threat and therefore refuses any contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 this situation would bother me because of the kissing. that said i have more of an issue with the pastor who sees every women as a sexual threat and therefore refuses any contact. Interesting. In both situations women and girls are being sexualized, so I think I see your point. Neither situation is healthy. But, if I had to choose, I'd much rather have a man keep his distance from my kids than take liberties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicAnn Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 And he is STILL a pastor? What denomination is this? If a man does not have the respect of his own wife, why in the world is he still a preacher? The leadership should have removed him, imo. Very much agree with this and with what others have said. This would absolutely not be allowed or considered appropriate in our congregation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 this situation would bother me because of the kissing. that said i have more of an issue with the pastor who sees every women as a sexual threat and therefore refuses any contact. Naw. One pastor might create a general atmosphere about himself that might puzzle/put out some women but the one in the OP was causing hamr to a specific individual. That's worse in my books any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 this situation would bother me because of the kissing. that said i have more of an issue with the pastor who sees every women as a sexual threat and therefore refuses any contact. I completely disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) Interesting. In both situations women and girls are being sexualized, so I think I see your point. Neither situation is healthy. But, if I had to choose, I'd much rather have a man keep his distance from my kids than take liberties. The pastor who as saulted me would not touch another woman with a ten foot pole....in public. In fact, he would do conferences on appropriate touching between genders. I agree your situation is very disconcerting, because of how many boundaries it crosses. I think the danger lies in extremes. My only concern is that often people see the Pastor who will avoid every "perception" of inappropriatness as safe. Edited July 14, 2011 by simka2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 The difference in age, authority, and power between the two makes this sexual harassment. Furthermore, "I wish I were single" is a terrible witness in a spiritual leader who presumably is performing marriage ceremonies, doing premarital counselling, and such. If our pastor did this, I'd be quietly looking for another church. :iagree:Heartily! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 The pastor who as saulted me would not touch another woman with a ten foot pole....in public. In fact, he would do conferences on appropriate touching between genders. I agree your situation is very disconcerting, because of how many boundaries it crosses. I think the danger lies in extremes. My only concern is that often people see the Pastor who will avoid every "perception" of inappropriatness as safe. That is such a great point. A guy friend of mine reminded me of 1 Timothy 5:1-2 "Treat younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity." I've been thinking about this verse A LOT today. Such a great standard. You can be warm and appropriately affectionate without going to either extreme (avoidance or boundary-crossing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 ICK! I would be leaving and never going back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Totally inappropriate and setting a terrible example. Gentlemen maintain boundaries. I'd be quite concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) So, here's the lame-o update. I asked (e-mailed) the pastor of the church I take the DDs to the following: "What would happen if someone (meaning: AN ADULT) started hitting on a teenager (physically or verbally or both), even if he was "just kidding"? If you saw it, what would you do? What if you just heard about it? What would you do if it was a staff member?" (Notice that I didn't talk about me.) His response: he'd rather talk about it in person. Ugh. Noooooooo. Bleh. I love email. Don't friggin do this to me!! (Sorry, got a bit dramatic). I have a couple of weeks to figure out whether or not to keep it hypothetical. I probably will. I mean, I don't need or want him to do anything that's directly specific to my cruddy experiences with Pastor Dipwad. I just need to know (going forward) that the church my girls are at now is safe for all of us, kwim? :: sigh :: I'm so sad right now. I think I might need to just get the hell over it. (It occurs to me that, since I deleted a lot of personal details from an earlier email, some people may be reading this wondering what the heck I'm talking about. Short, less personal, answer: the hypothetical teenager in the OP is me. The scenario happened more than once. I have high anxiety in church - possibly because of that combined with some other experiences. I want to feel safe and I want my kids to be safe. The end. :tongue_smilie:) Edited July 14, 2011 by shinyhappypeople Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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