Where is my red pen?? Somebody stop me!

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I stand with the majority.

 

I'd sooner send a letter to the head of the English department at the high school than throw cold water on this young man's head. How dare they hamstring a fine young man by keeping him in a classroom all day where he doesn't even learn to write properly?

 

Would my son post something riddled with errors? No. He is well-educated and thoughtful about details.

Nonetheless, his perfectly presented flyers have yielded nothing. I take that back, he got two lawnmowing jobs, but neither homeowner was able to afford to re-hire him. They told him upfront that they wanted to let him do it once because they admired his initiative but they couldn't afford to hire someone every week.

 

In my neighborhood, grown men in construction workers' garb go door-to-door in the daytime offering to trim trees and bushes, mow lawns, clean gutters, repair cars...there is no work. I hate turning them away. They look just like my husband and sons.

 

Teenagers, black men, and the working poor are in a Great Depression. Too many turn to video games, drugs, violence, dependence on government aid, or hopelessness. Anyone looking for honest work in hard times deserves nothing but compassion and encouragement.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I also agree with those wondering why we need our lawn maintenance men to be literate at all.

 

Part of our economic crisis is the fact that we've destroyed the job opportunities for those who don't do well in school (or have been at the mercy of pitiful schools). Factories? Farm work? Cleaning jobs? Peach picking???

 

We've given those jobs to people who are not legal citizens of our country (whether in the US or overseas) while teaching the upcoming generation that they are all too smart and good for that kind of work.

 

I am getting pretty riled about the criticism of the hardworking young man. OP, don't you know there are mothers of boys on this board? Mothers of fine and respectable boys who can't find work?

[Teachin'Mine]

I hate typos and poor grammar, too. But in this case, I suggest you take your red pen and write this young man a note complementing him on taking initiative to earn some money. So many young ones these days live a life of selfish entitlement, I like to encourage and entrepreneurial spirit.

 

I agree! And honestly I thought it was pretty good for the typical high school student and a football player. It shows that he put time and thought into the note, he got all the important info in there and he is offering to work at a very reasonable rate. I'd hire him. :)

 

I'd be more concerned with the quality of his lawn care than his writing skills. Then again, I start off sentences with a conjunctive and put commas all over the place. :lol:

[mmasmommy]

Wow.

 

I posted this after having a conversation with my DH about the flyer this morning. A conversation that included us commenting that we would have proofread the flyer with the child before allowing it to be distributed and how thankful we are that we pulled the kids out of the school system that is obviously not teaching basic skills. I assumed on a board of like minded people we could commiserate and shake our heads about how the school system is failing our kids if this is the output we are seeing.

 

In no way did I attack the boy or his work ethic. In fact I think I stated that I was impressed that he wanted to work unlike so many of his counterparts. I have no need for his services so I wouldn't hire him no matter what his flyer looked like. Many people commented on his rate, as a point of reference the lots in our neighborhood are just under 1/4 acre.

 

I did not post this with the expectation of offending anyone or of being attacked. I am quite surprised by some of the comments directed towards me.

 

For the record I would never actually take a red pen to this flyer and give it back to him. I am not a witch (nor a word that rhymes with it). It was sarcasm and my frustration coming out.

Edited June 28, 2011 by mmasmommy

[Mrs Mungo]

Wow.

 

I posted this after having a conversation with my DH about the flyer this morning. A conversation that included us commenting that we would have proofread the flyer with the child before allowing it to be distributed and how thankful we are that we pulled the kids out of the school system that is obviously not teaching basic skills. I assumed on a board of like minded people we could commiserate and shake our head about how the school system is failing our kids if this is the output we are seeing.

 

In no way did I attack the boy or his work ethic. In fact I think I stated that I was impressed that he wanted to work unlike so many of his counterparts. I have no need for his services so I wouldn't hire him no matter what his flyer looked like. Many people commented on his rate, as a point of reference the lots in our neighborhood are just under 1/4 acre.

 

I did not post this with the expectation of offending anyone or of being attacked. I am quite surprised by some of the comments directed towards me.

 

I think people would have reacted differently if you had said any of this in your initial post.

 

Here is the bulk of your OP with the text of the flier removed.

Came home last night to find this taped to my front door.

<snip>

Everything has been copied exactly as it is written down to the spacing.

I desperately want to mark this with a red pen and put it back on his front door. This child is in HIGH SCHOOL. :glare:

[mcconnellboys]

Honestly, it's so much better than most things I read by high schoolers these days that it didn't bother me....

[mmasmommy]

I think people would have reacted differently if you had said any of this in your initial post.

 

Here is the bulk of your OP with the text of the flier removed.

 

I apologize for being unclear. I sometimes forget that you can't read tone. Had you heard me say it you would have clearly gotten that I was not seriously going to mark up the flyer.

[CAMom]

Wow.

 

I posted this after having a conversation with my DH about the flyer this morning. A conversation that included us commenting that we would have proofread the flyer with the child before allowing it to be distributed and how thankful we are that we pulled the kids out of the school system that is obviously not teaching basic skills. I assumed on a board of like minded people we could commiserate and shake our heads about how the school system is failing our kids if this is the output we are seeing.

 

In no way did I attack the boy or his work ethic. In fact I think I stated that I was impressed that he wanted to work unlike so many of his counterparts. I have no need for his services so I wouldn't hire him no matter what his flyer looked like. Many people commented on his rate, as a point of reference the lots in our neighborhood are just under 1/4 acre.

 

I did not post this with the expectation of offending anyone or of being attacked. I am quite surprised by some of the comments directed towards me.

 

For the record I would never actually take a red pen to this flyer and give it back to him. I am not a witch (nor a word that rhymes with it). It was sarcasm and my frustration coming out.

 

:grouphug: I read the first post exactly with the intent you expanded upon here.

 

I thought it was much more of a lament on the state of education, not a criticism of the teenager himself.

 

My son took a world civ class at the local community college last semester. To make a very long story short, he was accused of plagiarism on a 1 1/2 page paper by his teacher and told he would have to prove he didn't do it.

 

He spoke to the teacher about his writing process and his knowledge on the topic. She was convinced he had not plagiarized and he received an "A" on the paper.

 

The reason she suspected him? She said his paper was "too good to not have been plagiarized." She said that it was a very unusual paper for one of her students. I read the paper and thought it was decent but nothing special. I probably would have given him a "B" on it. He wrote the whole thing in a couple of hours. It definitely was not his best work.

 

I think the message is that we are expecting less and less of our young adults. Yes, there are plenty of kids with learning issues and I'm sympathetic to that. However, as a whole, we are lowering our expectations of our youth and it's starting to show.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I have landscaping and handyman flyers in my door weekly, and what that kid wrote is about the best I've ever seen. I'd be impressed and hire the kid if I ever got something that well written on my door!

[Mrs Mungo]

I apologize for being unclear. I sometimes forget that you can't read tone. Had you heard me say it you would have clearly gotten that I was not seriously going to mark up the flyer.

 

Oh, I knew that. ;) Not being able to read tone goes both ways.

 

I think the message is that we are expecting less and less of our young adults. Yes, there are plenty of kids with learning issues and I'm sympathetic to that. However, as a whole, we are lowering our expectations of our youth and it's starting to show.

 

I agree with the sentiment, I'm just not sure to what extent I agree that it is a recent phenomenon:

 

My dad was accused of plagiarism in high school for the exact same reason as your son.

 

I had a neighbor (with a Master's degree) who brought over a letter she was writing to a company for my input. I completely rewrote it because it was incomprehensible.

 

I also helped her husband write his essay for entry into a PhD program.

 

My dh is always sending things back to people marked up with red pen because he won't sign his name to something with lots of mistakes.

 

I would say the majority of people I know do not and *can* not write well. My dh is a professional, and our circle is made up of educated, upper middle class types.

[Aubrey]

I did not post this with the expectation of offending anyone or of being attacked. I am quite surprised by some of the comments directed towards me.

 

For the record I would never actually take a red pen to this flyer and give it back to him. I am not a witch (nor a word that rhymes with it). It was sarcasm and my frustration coming out.

 

Some of the strong reactions here weren't directed at you, I don't think, but pps who were, um, outraged at the idea that a flyer like this would be put out at all.

 

ETA: Nevermind. I just realized pp & op were the same. In your last post, you said you wouldn't hire this kid because you don't need anyone to mow your lawn, but in pp, you said you wouldn't hire him because of his grammar. I'm still shocked by that kind of snobbery.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Aubrey

[JudyJudyJudy]

I agree with AuntieM, Aubrey, Perry, and others in their camp, and I love this:

 

Could this be another example of demanding over qualification from anyone wishing to work? I want my mechanic to quote the classics while changing my oil and my McDonald's with a side of Calculus thank you very much.

[Rebecca VA]

I like the flyer and would be very likely to hire this boy, if he lived in my neighborhood.

[AvasMom]

I think people would have reacted differently if you had said any of this in your initial post.

 

Here is the bulk of your OP with the text of the flier removed.

 

I think people would have reacted differently if they had taken more than 10 seconds to try and see the point the OP was trying to make rather than immediately jumping all over her. :glare:

[AvasMom]

:grouphug: I read the first post exactly with the intent you expanded upon here.

 

I thought it was much more of a lament on the state of education, not a criticism of the teenager himself.

 

My son took a world civ class at the local community college last semester. To make a very long story short, he was accused of plagiarism on a 1 1/2 page paper by his teacher and told he would have to prove he didn't do it.

 

He spoke to the teacher about his writing process and his knowledge on the topic. She was convinced he had not plagiarized and he received an "A" on the paper.

 

The reason she suspected him? She said his paper was "too good to not have been plagiarized." She said that it was a very unusual paper for one of her students. I read the paper and thought it was decent but nothing special. I probably would have given him a "B" on it. He wrote the whole thing in a couple of hours. It definitely was not his best work.

 

I think the message is that we are expecting less and less of our young adults. Yes, there are plenty of kids with learning issues and I'm sympathetic to that. However, as a whole, we are lowering our expectations of our youth and it's starting to show.

 

:iagree:

[DarlaS]

I taught high school English, & frankly, I'd be THRILLED to see anything that well written. I'd be willing to bet he's an honors student. Why? I've seen flyers written by other people.

 

:iagree:

 

The "another thing" drives me batty ("Thing" is a banned word in any kind of writing here.), but at least he can spell and seems to grasp the idea of a complete sentence.

[DarlaS]

 

My son took a world civ class at the local community college last semester. To make a very long story short, he was accused of plagiarism on a 1 1/2 page paper by his teacher and told he would have to prove he didn't do it.

 

He spoke to the teacher about his writing process and his knowledge on the topic. She was convinced he had not plagiarized and he received an "A" on the paper.

 

The reason she suspected him? She said his paper was "too good to not have been plagiarized." She said that it was a very unusual paper for one of her students. I read the paper and thought it was decent but nothing special. I probably would have given him a "B" on it. He wrote the whole thing in a couple of hours. It definitely was not his best work.

 

 

 

That is sad.

[Mom-ninja.]

His flier is really not that bad.

[Liz CA]

I taught high school English, & frankly, I'd be THRILLED to see anything that well written. I'd be willing to bet he's an honors student. Why? I've seen flyers written by other people.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking! :001_smile: I've read a LOT worse.

[Sun]

I also have to laugh at the irony of people criticizing this young man's grammar when their posts are riddled with grammatical mistakes. And they are homeschooling their kids, not mowing lawns. :lol:

 

 

:iagree: I think some people have been rather harsh--particularly in light of their own error-ridden posts.

[Sun]

I taught high school English, & frankly, I'd be THRILLED to see anything that well written. I'd be willing to bet he's an honors student. Why? I've seen flyers written by other people.

 

:iagree:

[DarlaS]

Part of our economic crisis is the fact that we've destroyed the job opportunities for those who don't do well in school (or have been at the mercy of pitiful schools). Factories? Farm work? Cleaning jobs? Peach picking???

 

 

:iagree:

 

I have a family member who dropped out of school before even making it to high school. This was the 70's and I suspect he had a LD. He also has a superior ability to fix anything.

 

He is now employed as a maintenance man in one of the very few thriving companies in our area. He feels fortunate.

[DarlaS]

Well I can tell you that if I was going to pay some one to mow my lawn it would not be this person. He begins his flyer by insulting his potential client. I would also be concerned that he didn't take the time and care to create a professional flyer how can I believe he would take the time and care to mow my lawn professionally?

 

That truly did not jump out at me, but I can certainly see your point.

 

I can just imagine getting a flier from a personal trainer: "I can see you've gained some weight..."

 

How about this one from a kid wanting to walk dogs: "Your dog is fat, and barks all the time. I can help with that..."

 

 

Hmmm... maybe making up a flier (or how not to :tongue_smilie:) has the makings of a fun writing assignment.

[mmasmommy]

That truly did not jump out at me, but I can certainly see your point.

 

I can just imagine getting a flier from a personal trainer: "I can see you've gained some weight..."

 

How about this one from a kid wanting to walk dogs: "Your dog is fat, and barks all the time. I can help with that..."

 

 

Hmmm... maybe making up a flier (or how not to :tongue_smilie:) has the makings of a fun writing assignment.

 

It didn't jump out at me either, DH was the one that noticed it.

 

DH owns his own business so he may be overly critical about these types of things. He is very aware of how he portrays himself to clients or potential clients.

[Audrey]

Came home last night to find this taped to my front door.

 

 

I Can Mow Your Lawn!

I see that your lawn needs to be cut and I would

be happy to mow it. I only charge $20-$25 for

both front and back. I can do your lawn this

summer anytime during the week (Monday Thru

Friday). I do have certain times during the week

because of football though. I have football from

7:30-9:00. Anytime after this during the day is

fine though. Another thing is that I can use

either my dad's lawnmower or yours whichever

you prefer. Lastly, I do live in this community and

if you have and questions or want to schedule

a time for me to cut your lawn just call me @ xxx-

xxx-xxxx.

 

 

 

Everything has been copied exactly as it is written down to the spacing.

I desperately want to mark this with a red pen and put it back on his front door. This child is in HIGH SCHOOL. :glare:

 

 

Honestly? It's not that bad. Have you seen the writing skills of recent high school grads? I have and do almost every day. This fellow would be on the top of the list for hiring as he can obviously put together coherent thoughts in complete sentences in a logical order, which many recent high school grads cannot do.

 

As for the spacing, it looks to me as if he tried to center it, probably for effect or neatness or aesthetic appeal.

 

I would hire this fellow right away and commend him for his entrepreneurial spirit. Although it is not perfect, I would also commend him for rising above the average public school writing skill level.

[Mom in High Heels]

 

Well I can tell you that if I was going to pay some one to mow my lawn it would not be this person. He begins his flyer by insulting his potential client. I would also be concerned that he didn't take the time and care to create a professional flyer how can I believe he would take the time and care to mow my lawn professionally?

 

I understood what you meant in your OP, even though it seemed a bit haughty. The quote above seems mean though and directed at the boy, not the school system. While this may be the fault of the school system, it also may be due to a disability as other posters have suggested. Besides, he's NOT a professional, he's a teenager.

[Mom0012]

I hate typos and poor grammar, too. But in this case, I suggest you take your red pen and write this young man a note complementing him on taking initiative to earn some money. So many young ones these days live a life of selfish entitlement, I like to encourage and entrepreneurial spirit.

 

:iagree: It's really not that bad compared to what I have seen elsewhere.

 

Lisa

[mmasmommy]

Honestly? It's not that bad. Have you seen the writing skills of recent high school grads? I have and do almost every day. This fellow would be on the top of the list for hiring as he can obviously put together coherent thoughts in complete sentences in a logical order, which many recent high school grads cannot do.

 

As for the spacing, it looks to me as if he tried to center it, probably for effect or neatness or aesthetic appeal.

 

I would hire this fellow right away and commend him for his entrepreneurial spirit. Although it is not perfect, I would also commend him for rising above the average public school writing skill level.

 

Audrey - I'm not picking on you specifically, many people have said something similar.

 

Isn't this the problem though? The public schools are failing our children. This is seen as above average writing for a high school aged student? That just seems so crazy to me.

 

I do not expect my mechanic to quote Shakespeare as a pp said but isn't it insulting them to imply that they shouldn't or couldn't?

 

I currently work at a community college. In the spring we will have over 120 remedial classes in Math & English. In the lowest reading classes the texts used are at a 6th grade reading level. With the exception of those kids with LD's how are these kids passing and eventually graduating HS? It boggles my mind. There is a serious problem with the education kids are getting these days. Aren't we feeding into it by not expecting better?

[Mommy22alyns]

I also have to laugh at the irony of people criticizing this young man's grammar when their posts are riddled with grammatical mistakes. And they are homeschooling their kids, not mowing lawns. :lol:

 

 

Exactly! I've seen way worse from people who are supposedly college educated. Sounds like a bargain; will ya send him over to me? :D

[JudoMom]

I hate typos and poor grammar, too. But in this case, I suggest you take your red pen and write this young man a note complementing him on taking initiative to earn some money. So many young ones these days live a life of selfish entitlement, I like to encourage and entrepreneurial spirit.

 

:iagree:

[mmasmommy]

I understood what you meant in your OP, even though it seemed a bit haughty. The quote above seems mean though and directed at the boy, not the school system. While this may be the fault of the school system, it also may be due to a disability as other posters have suggested. Besides, he's NOT a professional, he's a teenager.

 

Like it or not people judge us on the way we put ourselves out there. (I'm sure I'm being judged based on my posts) I was not trying to be mean, I was being honest.

 

As I said DH owns his own business. He agonized for weeks over his website making sure that what he had written made sense, that the spelling and grammar were correct, and that the spacing was appropriate. This is the first impression of him for many people so he wanted it to be perfect.

 

I realize that this boy is not an adult, nor is he trying to create a business that will support his family but I would still think he'd want to put his best foot forward.

 

I will say again that I mean no offense to the boy in question and that I admire his work ethic. I was unclear in the point of my original post and this has taken a turn I was not expecting.

 

I also don't claim to be an expert on Grammar. I know I make mistakes but I do my best to correct those when I can.

Edited June 28, 2011 by mmasmommy

[2cents]

I've seen a lot worse. Some of the worst grammar and spelling came from my son's 5th grade Montessori teacher. It was frightening!

[Jean in Newcastle]

If something has gone through a professional process - ie. an advertisement that should have had a copy editor, a newspaper article etc. or if something comes from a professional teacher or writer, then I am incredulous when there are blatant mistakes. I wouldn't have held this flyer to the same standards at all and wouldn't have scrutinized it either. Your title said that you wanted someone to stop you: I think you got what you asked for.

[ondreeuh]

My DH is dyslexic. His spelling is appalling, and even a spell-checker doesn't help (in fact, it often makes things worse). He speaks beautifully and is highly intelligent, but writing costs him enormous effort. He achieved a masters degree and doctorate in bio-chemistry from Oxford University, later doing an MBA. He is now a company director earning a good six figure salary. He still can't write anywhere near as well as the boy who wrote that flyer.

 

Cassy

 

This describes my husband as well (but he doesn't have a doctorate yet). I am very careful about judging someone on their writing ability because it does NOT tell the whole story.

[Mrs Mungo]

Isn't this the problem though? The public schools are failing our children. This is seen as above average writing for a high school aged student? That just seems so crazy to me.

 

I'm sure many of us agree that the schools are failing students. That is why most people here homeschool.

 

I do not expect my mechanic to quote Shakespeare as a pp said but isn't it insulting them to imply that they shouldn't or couldn't?

 

That isn't the same thing. My dad drove a forklift for many years. He is undoubtedly one of the smartest, well-read people I know. He served as an advocate for his less smart/educated co-workers for many years as a result. His intelligence greatly benefited the people who worked with him.

 

I know other people who cannot write well or express themselves well, but are educated in other areas of which I am completely ignorant.

 

However, have you read Dawn's posts? Her dh runs a lawn care business. He has employees. He is hard pressed to find workers who are not addicts or felons from Dawn's laments. Somebody more educated would likely be in a different line of work, would charge more (as a professional) and/or would have their own business.

 

I There is a serious problem with the education kids are getting these days. Aren't we feeding into it by not expecting better?

 

Again, I think I have to reject the notion that this is a recent phenomenon. Remember, in the past most people who weren't going on to higher learning did not finish high school.

 

Like it or not people judge us on the way we put ourselves out there. (I'm sure I'm being judged based on my posts) I was not trying to be mean, I was being honest.

 

I don't disagree with this. I tell my kids that *everything* in life is sales. I agree that one should put one's best foot forward. However, I disagree that fantastic grammar, punctuation and sentence structure are criteria by which I would choose a lawn guy. In fact, my last lawn guy was Filipino and barely read in English. He did a great job and honestly? He speaks, understands, reads and writes a lot more in his second language than I can do in a second language.

 

If something has gone through a professional process - ie. an advertisement that should have had a copy editor, a newspaper article etc. or if something comes from a professional teacher or writer, then I am incredulous when there are blatant mistakes. I wouldn't have held this flyer to the same standards at all and wouldn't have scrutinized it either.

 

I totally agree with this.

[goldberry]

I didn't think it was THAT bad. For a high school boy, I would say that's about average. If I were grading it, I would have given him a B-.

[Perry]

 

Isn't this the problem though? The public schools are failing our children. This is seen as above average writing for a high school aged student? That just seems so crazy to me.

I absolutely agree, and I'm a frequent critic of the schools because of it. However, I am NOT a critic of individual students based on their writing, and I felt that some posters (not you) were bashing the boy, which just seems very unfair.

[Audrey]

Audrey - I'm not picking on you specifically, many people have said something similar.

 

Isn't this the problem though? The public schools are failing our children. This is seen as above average writing for a high school aged student? That just seems so crazy to me.

 

I do not expect my mechanic to quote Shakespeare as a pp said but isn't it insulting them to imply that they shouldn't or couldn't?

 

I currently work at a community college. In the spring we will have over 120 remedial classes in Math & English. In the lowest reading classes the texts used are at a 6th grade reading level. With the exception of those kids with LD's how are these kids passing and eventually graduating HS? It boggles my mind. There is a serious problem with the education kids are getting these days. Aren't we feeding into it by not expecting better?

 

 

Yes. It is a problem. Yes. The public schools are failing our children. This is the biggest reason why I homeschool. I currently work for a government department that organizes support training for workers who do not have some of the basic essential skills necessary to do their jobs. The vast majority of those workers are high school graduates. It is interesting to see that some of the workers who are immigrants and who did not complete schooling in their country of origin have BETTER skill levels than our own recent high school graduates. And, it is further interesting to note that many older workers who have not been in school in decades have maintained higher skill levels than recent high school graduates.

 

There is a distinct and traceable slant of decline in skill levels over the past few decades. It is atrocious. Public schools have lowered expectations and standards across the board, thereby producing weaker and weaker skill levels amongst graduates. It used to be that students with special needs and learning disabilities were put in classes with teachers who were specifically trainined to understand and meet those needs. Now, everyone is mainstreamed (at least, they are here) and teachers are not capable of meeting special needs. No one gets what they need -- not the children with special needs, and not the other children in the class/school. Schools don't want to pay trained special needs teachers what they are worth, so they don't bother hiring them at all. They mainstream and leave the task up to ill-prepared teachers. These teachers will spend inordinate amounts of time on one or two children, with little to no success, while the rest of the class is left learning little or nothing as well. Whole classes of children receive so little instruction overall that the level of skill and learning is negligible. So, standards are lowered to meet the average being produced. The schools also get extra money for children with special needs, so it behooves them to label as many children as they can. That produces a downward spiral of lowered self-esteem in many. It is like a self-fulfilling prophecy. And those cycles repeat and repeat until we have children graduating from high school having learned no more than the average grade 5 student would have learned 20 years ago.

 

Yet, when I read this young man's letter, I am not seeing failure. Quite the opposite -- I see a young man who has somehow managed to rise above the average skill level DESPITE the school system. Certainly, he has a way to go before he achieves excellent levels, but based on the writing sample you provided, I believe he has succeeded despite the handicap of public schooling.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Audrey

[MtnTeaching]

I currently work at a community college. In the spring we will have over 120 remedial classes in Math & English. In the lowest reading classes the texts used are at a 6th grade reading level. With the exception of those kids with LD's how are these kids passing and eventually graduating HS? It boggles my mind. There is a serious problem with the education kids are getting these days. Aren't we feeding into it by not expecting better?

 

This is what I gleaned from this thread. It was not about the OP blasting this one child, but the venting of frustration about the education system and the expectations of our society as a whole letting these children down.

 

I have a child with dyslexia. Unfortunately, she will struggle with this throughout her life. On the other hand, I do not expect society to lower its expectations of her or other children around her because of this disability.

 

The future existance of our country depends upon the knowledge, initiative, and intellegence of the children of today. Personally, I believe we should all be holding high school students, teachers, parents, and administrators to a much higher level of expectation than we currently are. I fear for the futures of these children if we just "let it slide" and allow them to float along at the rate of the lowest common denominator.:sad:

[JudyJudyJudy]

I know this won't be a popular opinion on this board, but I'm going to be frank. I am a former (and still certified) public school teacher in both middle grades and high school; and the problem as I've seen it in public schools in many cases is not that they're teaching too little, but rather, that they're trying to teach too much. The fact is that not everyone needs to know how to do calculus, how to do in depth literary analysis, or how to write papers worthy of being published, yet we expect that instead of making sure that everyone gets the basics down.

[JudyJudyJudy]

The future existance of our country depends upon the knowledge, initiative, and intellegence of the children of today. Personally, I believe we should all be holding high school students, teachers, parents, and administrators to a much higher level of expectation than we currently are. I fear for the futures of these children if we just "let it slide" and allow them to float along at the rate of the lowest common denominator.:sad:

A nation isn't just built and maintained by the intelligent. It also depends on the physical workers. We expect mechanics to know everything that the college-educated people know, yet we don't expect the college-educated to know what mechanics know. Why is that?

[Aubrey]

I know this won't be a popular opinion on this board, but I'm going to be frank. I am a former (and still certified) public school teacher in both middle grades and high school; and the problem as I've seen it in public schools in many cases is not that they're teaching too little, but rather, that they're trying to teach too much. The fact is that not everyone needs to know how to do calculus, how to do in depth literary analysis, or how to write papers worthy of being published, yet we expect that instead of making sure that everyone gets the basics down.

 

Can I agree & disagree? I thought it was silly to try to teach the Russian Revolution to classes of over 40 9th grade non-native English speakers at a time, just so they could have Animal Farm read TO them. There were plenty of other books to choose from, even just on the district-approved list. But "this is what we've always done."

 

Otoh, I wouldn't say that was the biggest problem I faced. My kids missed class because they were in jail or their parents got evicted; I had one kid re-enroll in the school 3 times in one school year. Of course he learned very little, esp when you factor in that he also had to have a job outside of school to make ends meet.

 

I had a student (in 9th g) who was pg w/ her 2nd child; another who couldn't go to the library because of her ankle bracelet; I dealt w/ parole officers & was cussed out by parents who didn't want to be involved in their kids' lives AT ALL.

 

Grammar, even in the high school English classroom is SERIOUSLY not the biggest problem society is facing. And...I think a lot of people tend to WAY overrate its value. I have a BA in Lit from an excellent private school, in which NO grammar was taught, even for Lit majors. I have an MEdT for high school English--no grammar was taught there, either. I've taught college English, & *still* I'm saying that this kid's flyer represents top-notch work. Perfect? No, but definitely good enough.

 

People who over-value PERFECT grammar, etc, tend to be lonely because as it turns out, nobody cares. Not even college English depts, for the most part. Lament it as the signs of the destruction of civilization if you will, but others might just as easily do the same over the fact that Latin is no longer a standard of the educated classes.

 

My point? Things change. Language changes. I like that fact less than anybody, but I've got bigger fish to fry. Even bigger grammar fish: I found an incomplete sentence in an encyclopedia last night.

 

There will be plenty of time for complaining about belt buckles and dangling participles when I'm in a nursing home at an age that all I have is stuff to be crabby & old about. For now, I'm excited that a kid will mow my lawn for $25 because I've already lost the # (again!) of the guy who was doing it for $30 & couldn't speak English.

 

I will tell you what DOES crack me up, though: there was a framed "We mow lawns" sign in someone's yard (might have been a business--one of the older homes that you can never quite tell for sure). It stood there all summer one summer, with the grass mostly covering it. All. summer. :lol: "We mow everyone's lawn but our own." :lol:

[MtnTeaching]

A nation isn't just built and maintained by the intelligent. It also depends on the physical workers. We expect mechanics to know everything that the college-educated people know, yet we don't expect the college-educated to know what mechanics know. Why is that?

 

I expect a high school diploma to mean that both future mechanics and future CEOs should know how to write a paragraph with little to no errors. Is that too much to expect from years and years of instruction?

 

If an education is not the goal of a high school diploma and the expectation is not there that a child graduating from said high school will be a productive element of our society, but rather a drain upon it, maybe we should just save those millions of dollars spent upon their educations. If we put that money into a savings account for them, then we could draw from that to give them their food stamps and welfare checks when they are unable to get a job. (Yes, I am being sarcastic, but in a weird sort of way my sarcasm actually makes sense to me.):001_huh:

[Aubrey]

I expect a high school diploma to mean that both future mechanics and future CEOs should know how to write a paragraph with little to no errors. Is that too much to expect from years and years of instruction?

 

If an education is not the goal of a high school diploma and the expectation is not there that a child graduating from said high school will be a productive element of our society, but rather a drain upon it, maybe we should just save those millions of dollars spent upon their educations. If we put that money into a savings account for them, then we could draw from that to give them their food stamps and welfare checks when they are unable to get a job. (Yes, I am being sarcastic, but in a weird sort of way my sarcasm actually makes sense to me.):001_huh:

 

Maybe it serves as a 9 month prison facility? ;) Since school let out here, we've had our front window shot out & one of the cars broken into. In both cases, the police taking the report said it's just because school's out.

 

(I'm being sarcastic, too--I do *theoretically* hope for better from the education system, but...am pretty cynical about it after working there.)

[DarlaS]

A nation isn't just built and maintained by the intelligent. It also depends on the physical workers. We expect mechanics to know everything that the college-educated people know, yet we don't expect the college-educated to know what mechanics know. Why is that?

 

Good question.

[Heather in WI]

I'd hire him. :)

[JudyJudyJudy]

Can I agree & disagree? I thought it was silly to try to teach the Russian Revolution to classes of over 40 9th grade non-native English speakers at a time, just so they could have Animal Farm read TO them. There were plenty of other books to choose from, even just on the district-approved list. But "this is what we've always done."

 

Otoh, I wouldn't say that was the biggest problem I faced. My kids missed class because they were in jail or their parents got evicted; I had one kid re-enroll in the school 3 times in one school year. Of course he learned very little, esp when you factor in that he also had to have a job outside of school to make ends meet.

 

I had a student (in 9th g) who was pg w/ her 2nd child; another who couldn't go to the library because of her ankle bracelet; I dealt w/ parole officers & was cussed out by parents who didn't want to be involved in their kids' lives AT ALL.

Oh, I absolutely agree with all of this. Those were indeed huge problems that I faced and were probably the biggest problems. However, as for what was being taught, the chosen curriculum was a problem.

 

At one point I taught in an area where, sadly, many of the kids were truly not capable of learning at the level so many expect. Many had IQs in the low 70s, and it was difficult. It was very frustrating to be presented with all this stuff that I had to teach these kids when I knew the reality was that I needed to be teaching them the very basic skills of math. In that particular area, only about 40% of adults have high school diplomas. If I had never taught in such an area, I'd probably have a completely different outlook on this.

 

I will tell you what DOES crack me up, though: there was a framed "We mow lawns" sign in someone's yard (might have been a business--one of the older homes that you can never quite tell for sure). It stood there all summer one summer, with the grass mostly covering it. All. summer. :lol: "We mow everyone's lawn but our own." :lol:

:lol: That reminds me of the woman I knew who cleaned other people's homes (and did a wonderful job, I might add), yet you couldn't even walk in hers. LOL

[JudyJudyJudy]

I expect a high school diploma to mean that both future mechanics and future CEOs should know how to write a paragraph with little to no errors. Is that too much to expect from years and years of instruction?

I absolutely expect high school graduates to have the ability to communicate in writing. However, I don't see the example given in the OP as being contradictory to that. Did you have a difficult time understanding what he meant? Would this truly affect his ability to mow someone's lawn?

 

If an education is not the goal of a high school diploma and the expectation is not there that a child graduating from said high school will be a productive element of our society, but rather a drain upon it, maybe we should just save those millions of dollars spent upon their educations. If we put that money into a savings account for them, then we could draw from that to give them their food stamps and welfare checks when they are unable to get a job. (Yes, I am being sarcastic, but in a weird sort of way my sarcasm actually makes sense to me.):001_huh:

How would someone who wrote what was copied in the OP and who is willing and able to work be a drain on society?

[MtnTeaching]

I know this won't be a popular opinion on this board, but I'm going to be frank. I am a former (and still certified) public school teacher in both middle grades and high school; and the problem as I've seen it in public schools in many cases is not that they're teaching too little, but rather, that they're trying to teach too much. The fact is that not everyone needs to know how to do calculus, how to do in depth literary analysis, or how to write papers worthy of being published, yet we expect that instead of making sure that everyone gets the basics down.

 

:iagree:

 

I would also like to add that in the case of my local school system, the "basics" are forfeited in the quest to shove massive amounts of unrelated "trivia" tibits into the children so that money can be gained from standardized test scores. (OOOhhhh - that is a whole new can of worms, probably should not have opened that one!):ack2:

[lionfamily1999]

Audrey - I'm not picking on you specifically, many people have said something similar.

 

Isn't this the problem though? The public schools are failing our children. This is seen as above average writing for a high school aged student? That just seems so crazy to me.

 

I do not expect my mechanic to quote Shakespeare as a pp said but isn't it insulting them to imply that they shouldn't or couldn't?

 

I currently work at a community college. In the spring we will have over 120 remedial classes in Math & English. In the lowest reading classes the texts used are at a 6th grade reading level. With the exception of those kids with LD's how are these kids passing and eventually graduating HS? It boggles my mind. There is a serious problem with the education kids are getting these days. Aren't we feeding into it by not expecting better?

No one implied that they shouldn't or couldn't. What was said was that they would not be hired if they lacked grammatical precision. If the concern is clarity of language, as mentioned by JudyJudyJudy, then there was no issue with the flyer. Sure, the high schooler lacked tact, but that's hardly a lesson learned in high school.

 

Expecting better and demanding better are two different things. Sure, expect a better 'product' to come from the public schools, but don't deny the 'damaged goods' already kicked out. Demanding more than what was put in is unfair and unrealistic.

 

A nation isn't just built and maintained by the intelligent. It also depends on the physical workers. We expect mechanics to know everything that the college-educated people know, yet we don't expect the college-educated to know what mechanics know. Why is that?

I'm printing this for my dh. He comes home every night so irritated. The majority of his customers are highly educated folk that can't understand why their car will not run without oil :banghead:

I absolutely expect high school graduates to have the ability to communicate in writing. However, I don't see the example given in the OP as being contradictory to that. Did you have a difficult time understanding what he meant? Would this truly affect his ability to mow someone's lawn?

 

 

How would someone who wrote what was copied in the OP and who is willing and able to work be a drain on society?

Only if people refused to hire them because they did not write up to snuff. Thank goodness the majority of people tend to be alright with their laborers laboring, even if their writing isn't the best.