"My Degree Isn't Worth the Debt!"

[FlockOfSillies]

I think we'll be seeing more and more of these.

 

Discussion?

[creekland]

It'd be nice if they'd balance those articles with people who have gone to college and done well. Even at my academically poor high school, I've seen students with good results as well as those with bad. Our own personal experience (both mine and hubby's) is definitely positive.

 

But, with regards to their selections, I can personally say I'd have never let any of mine get into the levels of debt that those did - esp for some of their degrees.

 

Like one of the comments, I also wonder what GPA these people maintained and what else they have on their resume. A degree alone does not get one a job. The whole package does. There are few jobs where you can graduate in the bottom half of your class and still find decent employment these days. The fewer jobs with any specific degree, the higher you'd better be in your class - with good people skills too.

[Jane in NC]

Well my newspaper had an article on Sunday which gave statistics showing that people with degrees consistently earn more than people without--even in professions where degrees are not required.

 

Along these lines, I really enjoyed another recent article which described high employment among recent college grads--then went on to follow up on what these people had done with their lives since the 1980's when the article was written. It was clear that their degrees eventually paid off.

 

Of course, much of this comes back to whether one earns a degree solely for job training or for education and, as Creekland mentions, the level of debt incurred. The latter often leaves me scratching my head.

[8filltheheart]

 

I also wonder what GPA these people maintained and what else they have on their resume. A degree alone does not get one a job. The whole package does.

 

:iagree:

 

I posted this in another thread.

 

Our ds is graduating with less than $7000 in debt.

 

He has had job offers from every company he interviewed with. (And well w/in the range he had hoped for.)

 

Things that he sees about himself vs. his fellow students that are not getting job offers......

 

**his GPA is above 3.5 (seems that many companies won't even interview students who have a GPA below that benchmark)

 

**he did a summer research internship with one of his professors

 

**he co-oped for 12 straight months

 

** his summers were spent "academically" (research internship, taking summer classes, etc)

 

He does not attend a top-tier school, but his university is well-known in industry for its engineering graduates. I think that is something that students need to understand. If graduate school is not their main objective, how industry views the graduates is probably more important than "name recognition" in general.

 

That last part is important if you want to lower your debt for your under-grad degree.

[flyingiguana]

Most of these stories seem to involve people who incurred debt for very costly living expenses, as well as the tution. Perhaps they should have considered roommates, working between semesters, and few more packages of Ramen...

 

Do you have links to these stories? I'm not seeing that in the article from the OP.

 

When my daughter was choosing between a college that she could go to tuition free vs one she'd have to pay tuition on, a professor at the more expensive college advised her to just take out a loan. Because she'd be able to pay it off later at the salary she was going to make after graduation. Easy for him to say, as he already has a job.

 

I think we forget how often students have been given that advice by people who look like they should know.

 

From Jane in NC:

"Well my newspaper had an article on Sunday which gave statistics showing that people with degrees consistently earn more than people without--even in professions where degrees are not required."

 

Was this data from recent grads? I wonder if the picture for the recent grads is vastly different from what was experienced over previous decades.

[creekland]

 

He does not attend a top-tier school, but his university is well-known in industry for its engineering graduates. I think that is something that students need to understand. If graduate school is not their main objective, how industry views the graduates is probably more important than "name recognition" in general.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

I agree with your whole post, but especially the part I have quoted. This is why MY prime advice to anyone wanting a job in a certain field is to ask people already working (and preferably hiring) in that field where they suggest going to college. If one wants to relocate after graduation, check with someone in the "new" area as many colleges have regional reps.

 

Going further into it, if one wants grad school or professional school, see if one can find a list of where students who are already in that school did their undergrad and see if there are common factors/places. OR, one can ask each undergrad where their (recent) graduates have gone and see if those grad/professional schools appeal to them.

 

To many people, each college is only as good as their sports team, advertising, or how close it is to home. People doing the actual hiring (or grad school admissions) likely view schools differently.

 

Then realize it's still a competition and "everyone" won't necessarily win just due to a piece of paper, esp those who slack off or who lack "plays well with people" job skills.

[AngieW in Texas]

I just don't understand going into that much debt for a degree. I know that going to a state university in Texas will run about $20,000/year for tuition, fees, and room&board for in-state students. There's no way to make that kind of money over the summer, but SOME money could be made if a job could be found (my dd has had no luck). I don't know what in-state tuition is like for other states, but if things are really bad, then moving and working for one year to establish residency sounds like a great idea and that will help to offset college costs too.

 

Also, if costs are really high, then taking core classes at a cc really starts to make sense. My dd was admitted as a freshman with a great freshman scholarship and 45 college credits from the cc (although 25 of those were counted as elective).

Edited June 28, 2011 by AngieW in Texas

[K-FL]

I know that going to a state university in Texas will run about $20,000/year for tuition, fees, and room&board for in-state students. There's no way to make that kind of money over the summer, but SOME money could be made if a job could be found (my dd has had no luck). I don't know what in-state tuition is like for other states, but if things are really bad, then moving and working for one year to establish residency sounds like a great idea and that will help to offset college costs too.

 

The $$ are about the same for FL in-state.

 

I was surprised when we toured a FL U & a NJ family was there. For them to come to FL & pay out of state rate was still cheaper than staying in-state in NJ! With the advantage of great winter weather & the g-parents wintering near by.

[JennyD]

[quote

From Jane in NC:

"Well my newspaper had an article on Sunday which gave statistics showing that people with degrees consistently earn more than people without--even in professions where degrees are not required."

 

Was this data from recent grads? I wonder if the picture for the recent grads is vastly different from what was experienced over previous decades.

 

Not Jane, but here's the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/sunday-review/26leonhardt.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss. Clicking on the graphic gets the full illustration, and the link to the economix blog has additional data, including about two-year degrees. It looks like the data for the point Jane referenced is from 2007-09

[elegantlion]

I can't imagine that much debt either. Total speculation, but I wonder if some of this is due to a sense of entitlement and a lack of common sense. I just breezed through the article, yet many of them seem to be blaming what they were told about getting a job. What happened to discernment and maybe doing some fact checking on your own? :confused: Do people really believe that the piece of paper stamped degree is a guarantee of a job?

 

I just checked our local university. If ds lived at home for 4 years he could graduate with a BS with about a 35k investment (that's before any aid $).

[justamouse]

I still think you need one-not for a trade, say, but you still need a degree.

 

The thing is, you have to go about getting one wisely.

[SeekingSimplicity]

My dh has 2 degrees in electronics, but they are 11 years old. That has been a huge hindrance for him in his job search. Life happened and he had to spend a few years not working in his field and now his degrees, being as old as they are, are not any good for that field unless he gets to go back to college at some point.

[Jane in NC]

 

Not Jane, but here's the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/sunday-review/26leonhardt.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss. Clicking on the graphic gets the full illustration, and the link to the economix blog has additional data, including about two-year degrees. It looks like the data for the point Jane referenced is from 2007-09

 

Thank you Jenny for doing the footwork for me!

 

Best regards,

Jane

[Medstudent]

There's also no talk of salary ceilings anywhere. Sure, if you don't go to college you may be able to get a job straight out of high school at the bottom and work your way up to some extent, but you'll have a ceiling. Once you hit it, you may need to get a degree to get farther up. This happens all the time to people I know who wanted to work in business. You can start at 18 at the bottom of the ladder. You work for a few years and may make a comfortable salary, say even 50k, while your just-out-of-college counterparts are still looking for jobs with a salary that makes sense for their level of education. 5 years of making 50k and maybe you want to start making more, but in comes the college-educated kid who takes the spot away from you cause his professors were friends with your boss. And 5 years later, in comes the 27 year old MBA to take the six-figure salary.

 

Just as anyone can quote a success story of someone with nothing but a high school diploma who really makes something of himself, most of us can figure out that the majority of people who live on the really nice side of town are the lawyers, doctors and business people. If you don't want to live there, or don't think it's worth it to go to Stanford or Vanderbilt for 40k that's totally legitimate, but it's frustrating to see some of the comments on the article.

[creekland]

it's frustrating to see some of the comments on the article.

 

But those comments are entirely typical of many people's beliefs around us (where we live). They often work in the local factories, retail, or restaurants and spend their paycheck as soon as it arrives. Almost in the same breath they talk about how useless college is. Oldest has heard the exact same thing just working in packaging for a company this summer.

 

One has to admit, if one wants to work in the local factory, retail, or restaurant one doesn't need a degree.

 

It's helped inspire oldest to keep working toward his degree (not that he needed more inspiration, but it's definitely made it "more real").

 

To each our own. His goal is different than theirs.

[Medstudent]

But those comments are entirely typical of many people's beliefs around us (where we live). They often work in the local factories, retail, or restaurants and spend their paycheck as soon as it arrives. Almost in the same breath they talk about how useless college is. Oldest has heard the exact same thing just working in packaging for a company this summer.

 

One has to admit, if one wants to work in the local factory, retail, or restaurant one doesn't need a degree.

 

It's helped inspire oldest to keep working toward his degree (not that he needed more inspiration, but it's definitely made it "more real").

 

To each our own. His goal is different than theirs.

 

Absolutely, the frustrating part is that no one mentions goals at all. The kids in the article were naive, but they weren't completely insane. They had really bad luck ending up in an oversaturated workforce and a terrible economy- nowadays, college grads and non-college grads alike have trouble finding a job. College grads want a professional position that will help them pay back their education, and non-college grads might be more willing to take the lower-paid jobs- so it might look like they're doing better in comparison. But they don't get to hide away in grad school while the economy hopefully improves, and the road uphill is steeper. And their goals have to be different, they have to be more practical. Neither is an inherently perfect solution because this isn't a perfect world, but it's insane to say that college education is useless.

[FaithManor]

But those comments are entirely typical of many people's beliefs around us (where we live). They often work in the local factories, retail, or restaurants and spend their paycheck as soon as it arrives. Almost in the same breath they talk about how useless college is. Oldest has heard the exact same thing just working in packaging for a company this summer.

 

One has to admit, if one wants to work in the local factory, retail, or restaurant one doesn't need a degree.

 

 

Creekland, you must be living near me in the Twilight Zone.

 

The problem we have is that our area of Mid-Michigan has high numbers of anti-college people. They've all retired from GM, Ford, Chrysler, Delphi, etc. and went to work for these companies straight out of high school. They made fantastic livings, very comfortable, great benefits. This is what they planned for the kids and grandkids and their thinking isn't really based in cold, hard reality.

 

They some how think these jobs are still available. They aren't! Manufacturing has fled the state and the ensuing economic pitfalls it created, means that all kinds of other businesses are going out. Restaurant jobs - no one is hiring, Custodial jobs - no one is hiring, .....it goes on and on. But, they've convinced their kids and grandkids that they didn't need to apply themselves in school, they didn't need to have a career aspiration that would require additional education, etc.

 

I know eleven men who are out of work and though Michigan offers free job training (vocational school, professional licensing, community college, etc.), they refuse to take advantage of it. They still think that the factory, restaurant, custodial job, manufacturing support services job, etc. with health insurance will magically appear and it isn't happening. Construction companies have tanked as well, so forget learning drywalling, painting, framing...those used to be great ways to earn money, but not in this economy.

 

DD did go to EMT class with a man whose construction job ended and he did avail himself of the offer of free training. He enrolled in a really good two year fire science program as well as the EMT class. He is now gainfully employed in an urban fire department...decent salary and health benefits. As part of his training he received extensive hazmat training, FEMA training, and advanced rescue technics. As a result, if the department he works for has to make cuts, firefighters who have been there longer, will be laid off ahead of him because of his training. He told dd he was shocked to work with guys who hadn't taken a seminar, class, or skills refresher in over five years. He says they are convinced that the old system of seniority will save them though management has repeatedly warned them.

 

I think this article really does not address the bigger picture of long-term career viability and stability. It seems to be based on the huge assumption that the jobs of the past will still be abundantly available in the future and that those jobs will not be quick deadends.

 

Faith

[asta]

:iagree:

 

I posted this in another thread.

 

Our ds is graduating with less than $7000 in debt.

 

He has had job offers from every company he interviewed with. (And well w/in the range he had hoped for.)

 

Things that he sees about himself vs. his fellow students that are not getting job offers......

 

**his GPA is above 3.5 (seems that many companies won't even interview students who have a GPA below that benchmark)

 

**he did a summer research internship with one of his professors

 

**he co-oped for 12 straight months

 

** his summers were spent "academically" (research internship, taking summer classes, etc)

 

He does not attend a top-tier school, but his university is well-known in industry for its engineering graduates. I think that is something that students need to understand. If graduate school is not their main objective, how industry views the graduates is probably more important than "name recognition" in general.

 

That last part is important if you want to lower your debt for your under-grad degree.

 

But 8, this assumes - alot.

 

I'm not trying to snark on you or your child, but it takes a certain level of income to be able to do what you've just written. And most people just don't have it.

 

When DH and I were in college, I worked as a dorm mother and he worked as a dorm janitor (both 20-30 hours a week) in addition to taking 16 hours of classes. Every summer was minimally 40 hours of work at the highest paying jobs we could find. For him, that was living at his parents and doing manual labor (construction paid really well back then), for me, it was living with my sister in the "big city" and going on "temp jobs" at big companies. There was no "oh, I think I'll go work "in my field" for experience" option. It was purely money driven. Could we get enough money to go another year or not?

 

I think it would be lovely if all kids could be the "package deal" that your kid is, but I don't think that is an economic reality.

 

If DH and I both hadn't worked before college and then had sheer chutzpah, we probably wouldn't have been "competitive" against kids like yours. We had the GPAs, but there was no way we had the time for all of that other stuff.

 

I think there are many "asta and husband" kids out there. (and we weren't even married yet)

 

 

a

[8filltheheart]

But 8, this assumes - alot.

 

I'm not trying to snark on you or your child, but it takes a certain level of income to be able to do what you've just written. And most people just don't have it.

 

When DH and I were in college, I worked as a dorm mother and he worked as a dorm janitor (both 20-30 hours a week) in addition to taking 16 hours of classes. Every summer was minimally 40 hours of work at the highest paying jobs we could find. For him, that was living at his parents and doing manual labor (construction paid really well back then), for me, it was living with my sister in the "big city" and going on "temp jobs" at big companies. There was no "oh, I think I'll go work "in my field" for experience" option. It was purely money driven. Could we get enough money to go another year or not?

 

I think it would be lovely if all kids could be the "package deal" that your kid is, but I don't think that is an economic reality.

 

If DH and I both hadn't worked before college and then had sheer chutzpah, we probably wouldn't have been "competitive" against kids like yours. We had the GPAs, but there was no way we had the time for all of that other stuff.

 

I think there are many "asta and husband" kids out there. (and we weren't even married yet)

 

 

a

 

:confused:

 

I'm not sure where you are coming from. Co-ops are paid positions and are usually readily available through the university. (ETA: and co-op engineering students make about 2/3 of their equivalent "graduated from college w/degree" salary. Ds was also given full benefits including health insurance which is how they afforded to get married.) Students earn 1 credit hr/semester that they co-op. It is work experience w/in your field w/companies that recruit directly from that university. If a university does not have a co-op dept, I would not recommend that uni for a student wanting to go into industry.

 

He was also paid far more during his research internship than he ever could have made working a typical summer job. In addition, he had to write a paper that was presented at an international scientific symposium of some sort in Canada. The trip was funded by the uni. It was an awesome experience. There are opportunities out there for serious students that work hard. Professors recognize that in students and seek them out. Ds was sought out for the summer position. He didn't even know it existed until he was approached.

 

 

I find your post ???

Edited June 29, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[mcconnellboys]

Wellllll, my first thought, with the very first guy, is that he should know for a specialized degree like his that it will take some time to find the right job. Nine months is not that long. So he's making 55k a year instead of

70k - in a first job - am I supposed to feel sorry for him? How can his debt payment by 50% of his income per year (or more, after taxes)? I thought there were limits set on the percentage of repayment required related to the amount of money earned....

[justasque]

Wellllll, my first thought, with the very first guy, is that he should know for a specialized degree like his that it will take some time to find the right job. Nine months is not that long. So he's making 55k a year instead of

70k - in a first job - am I supposed to feel sorry for him?

 

So he's got a debt of $185,000, and he's making 55-60K a year, no mention of dependents. He should be able to pay this off in less than 10 years ($18.5K a year plus interest); half that if he really tries. If he's serious about it, he could take a second job, for 10-15 hours a week, which would give him an extra 4K after taxes even at minimum wage. Doesn't sound like much, but do it for a few years and it will help.

 

No new car, no fancy apartment, no fab vacations.

 

He's an engineer for goodness sake, didn't he do the math as to how much the monthly payment would be for his loans? And that means he borrowed 46K a year (assuming 4 years). Hello? A state school runs more like $25K, and that's without aid. And what was he doing in the summers during college?

[wapiti]

I agree that goals are an important piece left out of the picture. One can't go to grad school without getting a college degree first, and there are tons of types of jobs for which one would need a college degree to even consider. But even more generally, exercising good judgment on one's career choices plays an important role in one's success whether college is pursued or not.

 

It'd be nice if they'd balance those articles with people who have gone to college and done well. Even at my academically poor high school, I've seen students with good results as well as those with bad. Our own personal experience (both mine and hubby's) is definitely positive.

 

But, with regards to their selections, I can personally say I'd have never let any of mine get into the levels of debt that those did - esp for some of their degrees.

 

Like one of the comments, I also wonder what GPA these people maintained and what else they have on their resume. A degree alone does not get one a job. The whole package does. There are few jobs where you can graduate in the bottom half of your class and still find decent employment these days. The fewer jobs with any specific degree, the higher you'd better be in your class - with good people skills too.

 

:iagree:

 

Even within the same major, the "value" of a degree will differ by school, by GPA, and by all the other far less-quantifiable qualities a person brings to the table.

 

I also had a positive experience with taking on debt for degrees (>85k). It was paid off long ago. But none of it was as simple as "get x degree and make y dollars." Life is not one-size-fits-all.

[twoforjoy]

I have a master's degree. My husband has a doctorate. He currently makes $42K doing research (which is a HUGE step up from the $24K he made when he started, with a master's degree). I have a master's degree and the only job I could find was adjunct teaching, which brings in about $10K/year when I'm teaching two classes each term.

 

I'd say that degrees, particularly advanced degrees, in the humanities and social sciences really are not worth the debt you to into to get them, if we're talking about financial payoff. I don't even want to think about how long it will take us to pay off our student loan debts.

 

And, I'm sure people will turn around with "Well you should have been an engineer!" or "Well you should have gone into the medical field!" but, really, we don't need everybody to be an engineer or nurse. We need researchers, we need teachers, we need people to take jobs that require college or graduate degrees but pay comparatively little in return. I think that's where student loan debt gets crushing.

 

I had a job a few years back working part-time at a bargain bookstore ($7/hr). My manager told me that, if he wanted, he could have staffed the store entirely with people with graduate degrees, because there were so many people looking for work and willing to take anything. Granted, I live in an area (the Metro Detroit area) with one of the worst economies in the nation, but when you've got a pile of resumes from people with graduate degrees looking to take a $7/hr part-time job, and 400-500 people applying for $18K/year jobs that require a BA and work experience (and I applied for a number of those), it's hard to say that college is giving most people a leg up on anything other than debt.

 

ETA: Regarding the GPA issue, I'm pretty sure that's irrelevant. I never had an employer ask for my transcript outside of academia. Having a higher GPA does not, as far as I know, increase your chances of getting a job. That's just one more myth we sell young people, that if they just work hard enough they'll get a good job (and if they don't get a good job, it's because they didn't work hard enough).

[8filltheheart]

 

ETA: Regarding the GPA issue, I'm pretty sure that's irrelevant. I never had an employer ask for my transcript outside of academia. Having a higher GPA does not, as far as I know, increase your chances of getting a job. That's just one more myth we sell young people, that if they just work hard enough they'll get a good job (and if they don't get a good job, it's because they didn't work hard enough).

 

I disagree, especially when you are talking in terms of employers recruiting on campus. It is a screening tool.

 

However, I know nothing about liberal arts/humanities majors. But for STEM majors, yes, it matters. Even dh had to give his GPA for his first several jobs after graduation umpteen yrs ago.

[Kathy in Richmond]

But 8, this assumes - alot.

 

I'm not trying to snark on you or your child, but it takes a certain level of income to be able to do what you've just written. And most people just don't have it.

 

When DH and I were in college, I worked as a dorm mother and he worked as a dorm janitor (both 20-30 hours a week) in addition to taking 16 hours of classes. Every summer was minimally 40 hours of work at the highest paying jobs we could find. For him, that was living at his parents and doing manual labor (construction paid really well back then), for me, it was living with my sister in the "big city" and going on "temp jobs" at big companies. There was no "oh, I think I'll go work "in my field" for experience" option. It was purely money driven. Could we get enough money to go another year or not?

 

I think it would be lovely if all kids could be the "package deal" that your kid is, but I don't think that is an economic reality.

 

If DH and I both hadn't worked before college and then had sheer chutzpah, we probably wouldn't have been "competitive" against kids like yours. We had the GPAs, but there was no way we had the time for all of that other stuff.

 

I think there are many "asta and husband" kids out there. (and we weren't even married yet)

 

 

a

 

I'm afraid that I don't get this comment either?? Co-ops and internships are a prime method for working one's way through college, not taking an easy ride. 8Fill's son is a shining example of a mature young man who is taking charge of life (marriage, baby, expenses) at an extraordinarily young age.

 

My son just graduated with his master's degree & managed to pay off his student loans in full due to the paid internship he worked at for several stretches of time over the years.

[Bootsie]

I have to ask what choices were these individuals making? The first student highlighted, Eric, says that he has $185,000 in debt. If you look at the school he attended, tuition, room and board, etc. will be less than $37,000 a year for the 2011-2012 school year. I could only assume that his expenses per year were less than that five or so years ago when he started school. Assuming he had no financial aid, no money saved up for college, no summer or part-time job to help pay for expenses, why does he have more than 4 X 37,000 in debt?

 

Also, to take 30 years at $1800 a month payment to pay off a $185,000 debt, he would have to be paying an 11.3% interest rate. I don't know of any student loans with that high of an interest rate in today's market.

[twoforjoy]

The stories I've read are all in the NY Times, mostly over the past two years.For ex, people going to NYU and renting their own apt in Manhattan,eating out, all the bells and whistles of an employed person, then being surprised that they can't find a job to pay off 4 years of that lifestyle. I have yet to read any article about massive debts that says the kid had 3 roommates or lived in grandma's spare room, cooked in, worked part time and over the summers etc. Link if you have, pls.

 

This seems massively unfair to me.

 

There was just a big study done in Michigan that found that a single person needs about $30K to make ends meet. I know very, very few young people living lavish lifestyles. I also know very few who are making enough to be financially independent, much less financially secure.

 

I'm not sure why we're so unwilling to admit that our current economic situation has screwed over young people more than any other group. College costs have risen and risen for decades, while salaries have stagnated. If that wasn't bad enough, we've now got college grads coming out unable to find jobs, not because they are lazy or unwilling, but because the jobs simply are not there.

 

A good study was done by Rutgers (where I did my undergrad). You can read the full PDF here.

 

The sad thing is how many young people are blaming themselves. I guess they are getting our message to them loud and clear.

[wapiti]

ETA: Regarding the GPA issue, I'm pretty sure that's irrelevant. I never had an employer ask for my transcript outside of academia. Having a higher GPA does not, as far as I know, increase your chances of getting a job. That's just one more myth we sell young people, that if they just work hard enough they'll get a good job (and if they don't get a good job, it's because they didn't work hard enough).

 

It all depends on the field. Certainly not having a high enough GPA can foreclose opportunities. Grad schools look very, very closely at GPA. I can't imagine any grad school that doesn't consider GPA in admissions - I think it's usually a formula of test scores and GPA. Wall Street employers interviewing college seniors look closely at GPA (LOL I couldn't even get an on-campus interview with those people). Big law firms look very, very closely at GPA in hiring law students and new law school grads.

 

In my experience, the further away you are from the time you graduated, the less your GPA matters. But right out of the gate, it's one of the more significant pieces of information a potential employer has about a person.

[Bootsie]

I do see many college students living what I consider a lavish lifestyle for a college student. For example, a student was in my office not long ago because she failed an exam. She could not understand why she had done so poorly. She had missed two entire weeks of class before the exam because she was on vacation in Hawaii. I asked if she took her book along and the response I got was "Oh, I am really struggling financially; I don't have money for a textbook."

 

I hear these types of comments from college students on a daily basis.

[butterflymommy]

It is very difficult for recent grads to find employment, because they are competing against older, experienced workers willing to accept entry level pay. Additionally many jobs are simply disappearing. Professional, degreed jobs once considered safe are going the way of factory jobs, being offshored to India and China:

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing_science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L

 

Other previously "safe" professions such as law are being chipped away by technology (like eDiscovery):

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703439504576116340050218236.html

 

This isn't to say that motivated teens shouldn't go to college-- education has merit even if it won't yield financial advantage-- but-- they should accumulate as little debt as possible. We've already told our kids to attend the local state school and live at home to avoid room and board costs. I used to be of the mindset that they should study something "practical" but even engineering and law degrees aren't a safe bet, these days. :confused: I hope the employment situation improves by the time they are adults.

[butterflymommy]

ETA: Regarding the GPA issue, I'm pretty sure that's irrelevant. I never had an employer ask for my transcript outside of academia. Having a higher GPA does not, as far as I know, increase your chances of getting a job. That's just one more myth we sell young people, that if they just work hard enough they'll get a good job (and if they don't get a good job, it's because they didn't work hard enough).

 

Many attorneys interviewing for a position will be asked about their GPA from law school. Some are even asked what their LSAT scores were. IMO, law is one of the few fields where it really matters "what school" you attended. That being said, I know very successful attorneys who did not attend top tier schools.

[jennynd]

kettering university with B.S and expectong 70k-80k... what is he smoking????

[mcconnellboys]

Thank you. I didn't want to go on and on, but that was exactly what I was thinking. So he has to live at home with his parents or take a cheap apartment for a few years? His payments amount to what a lot of folks pay for a home mortgage. If he's got expertise, he might be able to do consulting on the side for extra money. I was wondering, as you were, Pauline, how he managed to rack up almost 50k a year in college debt. It sounds like he went to a very expensive school and if that's what he wanted, then he must also accept the debt that results, not cry about not being able to immediately buy a sports car....

 

I thought the others sounded rather like cry babies, too.....

[Homeschooling Again]

I just glanced at the article. I'm sorry, but is that first guy really complaining about making $55,000 at his first job out of college in this economy????? I'm not crying for him.

[Medstudent]

Thank you. I didn't want to go on and on, but that was exactly what I was thinking. So he has to live at home with his parents or take a cheap apartment for a few years? His payments amount to what a lot of folks pay for a home mortgage. If he's got expertise, he might be able to do consulting on the side for extra money. I was wondering, as you were, Pauline, how he managed to rack up almost 50k a year in college debt. It sounds like he went to a very expensive school and if that's what he wanted, then he must also accept the debt that results, not cry about not being able to immediately buy a sports car....

 

I thought the others sounded rather like cry babies, too.....

 

I don't know that I thought they sounded like cry babies, they just sounded a little naive. Maybe they were misquoted or edited to sound like they had no idea what they were getting themselves into, but that's exactly how they came across. I think most people have no idea how hard it is to really get a job- especially one that can turn into a career- and I'm not even taking into account the current economy. Not only does a college education not guarantee you riches, but it doesn't guarantee you anything other than opportunities. I have to admit that when I got out of college, I was amazed at how hard it was to find a position. I sent resumes everywhere I could think of, but you're really just sending them into a void. I realized pretty quickly that the best- maybe only- way to find something is to know someone. I eventually got something and I was lucky enough to be compensated appropriately (I certainly wasn't making 50k, but hey, at 22 I didn't really need them), but they didn't just give me an offer along with my diploma at graduation. I think a lot of kids see the economy and figure- hey, I'm special, I went to a good college, I should be able to get something when I get out- but maybe they just don't know how to make it work. And yeah, the economy is atrocious, the jobs just aren't there for the taking right now. But to take that to mean that college is a waste of time...come on.

[asta]

Ok, so no one understood my comment.

 

Is everyone on this board besides twoforjoy and medstudent an Engineer?

 

Not everyone is an engineer! Not everyone WANTS to be an engineer. And if they WERE, guess what? All of the engineers wouldn't be in demand! There would be an over-supply, wages would go down, and... companies wouldn't be beating down the doors of unis to offer co ops - much less offering competitive salaries for them.

 

And guess what? The co ops for degrees like Economics and Political Science are in places like D.C., or other seats of government where the pay is non-existent (oooo... don't you feel PRIVILEGED to be working in the PRESENCE of GOVERNMENT) and students are somehow expected to come up with the cash to live in the areas.

 

There aren't firms banging down the doors of universities for "soft science" students. But just *try* and get a job at the Federal Reserve or Morgan Stanley without a degree in Economics; it isn't going to happen. Can "go getter" students find things? Sure. If they have the financial means to do so. Because there are thousands of kids trying, and those slots are needles in a haystack.

 

Like twoforjoy essentially said, there is a place in this world for "other". Someone needs to do all of the stuff that ISN'T engineering or STEM. And they have to have college degrees to be allowed to do it as well.

 

Does that make sense.

 

 

a

 

ETA: Public finance, International Econ, Econometrics et al are NOT easy subjects. We're not talking "business math" here. We're talking advanced statistical analysis of local, state and world economies; how they came into being, what internal and external pressures they face, and how they interact with one another in the aggregate. There is a a type of thinking, a type of intelligence, if you will that is needed to be able to do this. And it is very, very necessary in order for governments to be able to function. It affects everything from "what is the best way to pay for a new sewer system" to "how do we get the local polluter to stop doing so" to "how best do we stop a dictator" to "how do we quicken/slow down an economy" (leave it alone! it's cyclical - it will right itself!). These are not unimportant, useless things because they aren't "STEM" degrees. I would argue that in some ways, they are more important: they keep the world from literally blowing up.

 

ETA2: Now that kid is awake and discussing - it is the historians, the sociologists, and the psychologists who are watching the patterns of human behavior in society at large that allow heads of state to manage diplomacy. Yes, sometimes that diplomacy is weak or breaks down completely - but there is a reason the world hasn't had another true Hitler or Pol Pot: there are all of these "worthless degrees" running around yelling FIRE at consulates and embassies when heads of state go a wee bit too far down certain paths.

Edited June 29, 2011 by asta

[asta]

I don't know that I thought they sounded like cry babies, they just sounded a little naive. Maybe they were misquoted or edited to sound like they had no idea what they were getting themselves into, but that's exactly how they came across. I think most people have no idea how hard it is to really get a job- especially one that can turn into a career- and I'm not even taking into account the current economy. Not only does a college education not guarantee you riches, but it doesn't guarantee you anything other than opportunities. I have to admit that when I got out of college, I was amazed at how hard it was to find a position. I sent resumes everywhere I could think of, but you're really just sending them into a void. I realized pretty quickly that the best- maybe only- way to find something is to know someone. I eventually got something and I was lucky enough to be compensated appropriately (I certainly wasn't making 50k, but hey, at 22 I didn't really need them), but they didn't just give me an offer along with my diploma at graduation. I think a lot of kids see the economy and figure- hey, I'm special, I went to a good college, I should be able to get something when I get out- but maybe they just don't know how to make it work. And yeah, the economy is atrocious, the jobs just aren't there for the taking right now. But to take that to mean that college is a waste of time...come on.

 

You actually are, in some cases.

 

I worked at IBM for a bit one summer in HR. Resumes come in, they are stamped with the date, and they go in the file box.

 

The only way a resume even gets *looked at* for a job is if a resume comes in on the day a job has come open per the HR director (not the newspaper, etc.) and meets enough criteria to make it to his/her "look" pile.

 

Guess who decides if it goes into her pile? The receptionist.

 

If the applicant is called in and is rude to the receptionist? It's game over before it even starts. HR does a cursory interview and the applicant is done.

 

I'm sure the system has changed somewhat, but apparently that is how they had done it for a loooonnnngg time, and IBM doesn't change very quickly.

 

 

a

[CountryGirlShake]

Chiming in without reading all the posts.....

 

I recently decided I should persue a college degree while I'm home and not 'working'. With a community college, my debt would have been 0, I qualified for grant funds and with the communtiy college's low tuition, I would not have accumulatedany debt. Trouble was I am an hour from any classes, and gas$$ back and forth, plus who would watch DS.

 

So, I opted to enroll in a completely online college, and the debt is building up fast. My first 4 classes are something like $4500 (estimate) and I already received the first statement showing student loans. It's nearly $500 a credit.

 

I have been trying to justify this expense. Granted I don't have to repay until I graduate, but still..... it's going to be 25K later that I graduate, and for an AA is it really worth it? I'm wondering if it really is ...... If I continued to Masters, I would be almost 100K in student loans.

 

.... and I read somewhere (forget at the moment) that the student loans cap slightly over 100K. MY personal opinoin is that it's a monopoly much like health insurance. The government could stop the high prices, but dosen't. They are in on the perks too, and us little guys are the ones that struggle.

[Gwen in VA]

Regarding the GPA issue, I'm pretty sure that's irrelevant.

 

1) GPA is hugely important if you are applying to grad school/law school/med school/B school. And GPA is important if you ever MIGHT apply to any graduate program.

 

2) GPA is also important in getting those strong recommendations from professors. Those do play a role in who gets hired.

 

3) And GPA plays a major role in getting those cool internships during college that look so nice on the transcript and help you get into grad school or land that nice job.

[twoforjoy]

There aren't firms banging down the doors of universities for "soft science" students. But just *try* and get a job at the Federal Reserve or Morgan Stanley without a degree in Economics; it isn't going to happen. Can "go getter" students find things? Sure. If they have the financial means to do so. Because there are thousands of kids trying, and those slots are needles in a haystack.

 

Yes.

 

In certain fields--public policy, finance, publishing, etc.--it's my understanding that you pretty much cannot get an entry-level job without already having experience, and the way you get that experience is internships.

 

These internships are not only unpaid, but they are also unpaid in some of the most expensive areas of the country (DC for politics/policy, NYC for publishing/finance). Unless you can manage to not only go a summer without earning money, but also afford to pay for living expenses for that summer in an expensive city, you can't do it. Many, many good, qualified, hard-working students cannot manage.

 

And, just to speak to the "they should have thought harder about what field to go into" thing, as you mentioned, if everybody went into engineering, we'd see demand go down and salaries plummet.

 

I know a number of unemployed teachers in MI who went into teaching because, several years ago, there was talk of how the inner city schools were desperate for good teachers. They thought that, by getting a teaching degree, they'd be doing something positive for others and putting themselves in a position to have a job at graduation time. Then, a few years later, they graduated and there were no jobs for them.

 

My husband works right now in a lab in an SLP department. I had several people try to talk me into going into the SLP post-bacc program, because it was a really in-demand field. Within just a few years, they've had to start turning down students left and right, because so many are now trying to get in, and already the available jobs have slowed very considerably.

 

It is very difficult for recent grads to find employment, because they are competing against older, experienced workers willing to accept entry level pay. Additionally many jobs are simply disappearing. Professional, degreed jobs once considered safe are going the way of factory jobs, being offshored to India and China:

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing_science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L

 

Other previously "safe" professions such as law are being chipped away by technology (like eDiscovery):

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703439504576116340050218236.html

 

This isn't to say that motivated teens shouldn't go to college-- education has merit even if it won't yield financial advantage-- but-- they should accumulate as little debt as possible. We've already told our kids to attend the local state school and live at home to avoid room and board costs. I used to be of the mindset that they should study something "practical" but even engineering and law degrees aren't a safe bet, these days. :confused: I hope the employment situation improves by the time they are adults.

 

This is all very true. (BTW, it's my understanding that law degrees are, at this point, pretty much a financial disaster. There are so many students coming out with law degrees that it's incredibly difficult to find a good job, and you get into so much debt attaining the degree that it's really shooting yourself in the foot to go that route for most people.)

 

The problem with college debt that nobody is acknowledging is that college costs are rising at a rate much, much, much faster than the rate at which salaries are rising (in fact, since the early 80s, we've seen average wages stagnate and even drop). As an example, the (public) university where I work is having a 6.9% tuition increase this year. And, that's getting off pretty easy. Several other public universities in the state are having 12% tuition hikes.

 

Do you know anybody who has had a 7%, much less 12%, salary hike this year? Are the wages for entry level jobs going up 7-12% each year? Of course not. Many people I know haven't seen a raise in a few years, and several people I know have taken pay cuts.

 

So we have students taking on student loan debt, out of necessity, that is not being matched by an increase in the wages they can expect to earn--if they are lucky enough to find a job--upon graduation.

 

It's a horrible situation these young people are caught up in.

[twoforjoy]

1) GPA is hugely important if you are applying to grad school/law school/med school/B school. And GPA is important if you ever MIGHT apply to any graduate program.

 

I said for employment, not grad school. Obviously GPA matters for grad school admissions.

 

2) GPA is also important in getting those strong recommendations from professors. Those do play a role in who gets hired.

 

I'd say that depends. Performance in a specific class has more to do with recommendations than overall GPA. And, many jobs don't require or even want that sort of recommendation. Again, it matters for grad school, obviously, but not so much for employment.

 

3) And GPA plays a major role in getting those cool internships during college that look so nice on the transcript and help you get into grad school or land that nice job.

 

If, as mentioned, you can afford to go a summer or two without earning any money, while being able to cover your living expenses. Internships depend a whole lot less on GPA than on knowing the right people and coming from a family with the financial means to support you.

 

I think we need to admit that much if not most of finding a job is luck. You happen to have your resume arrive at the right time on the right day. Or, you know somebody within the organization. For most students, even if they have a stellar academic record, their resume is going to go into a pile with hundreds of other resumes, and in many cases won't even be looked at.

 

It's nice to think that if you do what you're "supposed to"--go to college, work hard, get good grades--you'll come out and find a job that pays enough for you to live a modest-but-financially-independent life, at least within a few years. Unfortunately, that is just not the reality for many if not most students today, not for lack of hard work or ability, but because of the shape our economy is in and what has been going on with rising costs (especially for education and housing) and stagnating wages.

[asta]

I forgot:

 

If you can get an internship or co op at the CIA, they'll pay you a "competitive" salary plus benefits.

 

The only conditions are that you have to:

 

1. Relocate to DC

2. Pay for your own housing in DC

 

and

 

3. Not tell anyone that you are doing or have done it.

 

Simple, see!

 

 

asta

[Gwen in VA]

3) And GPA plays a major role in getting those cool internships during college that look so nice on the transcript and help you get into grad school or land that nice job.

 

If, as mentioned, you can afford to go a summer or two without earning any money, while being able to cover your living expenses. Internships depend a whole lot less on GPA than on knowing the right people and coming from a family with the financial means to support you.

 

There is aid available for internships at many colleges. And the kids with the top GPA's get the aid, since the college wants to invest its resources wisely in those who have a better chance of making the college look good in the long run.

[twoforjoy]

There is aid available for internships at many colleges. And the kids with the top GPA's get the aid, since the college wants to invest its resources wisely in those who have a better chance of making the college look good in the long run.

 

How much aid? And it's still there now? I don't know anybody who received aid for an internship from their college, and I was in college 15 years ago. Today, with budgets being slashed, I don't see your average state college or university having much in the way of funds being available for summer internships, and certainly not enough to defray the cost of not working for an entire summer and covering living expenses.

 

I know that the idea that students are in a really, really tough situation even if they do everything right goes against our popular narrative that kids today are the laziest, dumbest generation ever while they have it easier than they ever did. But, that's not reality. In reality, young people today are in a more difficult situation than those of us in our 30s were in when we left college, and a much, much more difficult situation than our parents were in when they did. They are not to blame. It's not their fault that jobs have been disappearing. It's not their fault that older, experienced, well-qualified workers are, out of desperation, taking entry-level jobs that would have gone, in the past, to new grads. It's not their fault that wages have not even come close to keeping pace with increases in housing and education and medical costs.

 

The saddest thing about all of this is that so many young people DO think it's their fault. They were raised to believe that if you work hard, get good grades, and do what you're supposed to, it will all work out for you. You'll come out of college, get a job that pays enough to live on (not lavishly, but enough to get by at first), and things will just keep getting better from there. So, when that doesn't happen, they assume that they messed up somewhere along the line, and we just keep telling them that.

 

When my parents came out of college about 40 years ago, my mom had no debt and my father--who went to a private college and paid for all of it in loans, owed $6,000 total. Today, tuition at that same college is $15K/semester. They paid $200/month in rent for their first apartment, which was a three-bedroom (where I live, three bedrooms go for about $1000/month). Their home cost $29,999, and they sold it a few years ago for $300,000.

 

Now, given that, we'd have to assume that, since they will be paying about 5 times as much in rent, ten times as much if they buy a home, and have about 20 times as much in loans to pay back, salaries much be 5-20 times higher than they were then, right?

 

Obviously that's not the case. In fact, in just real, non-inflation-adjusted dollars, I made less at my first FT job than my dad made at his, and my DH made about the same. Adjusting for inflation, we were making very significantly less.

 

And, it's only gotten worse in the last 15 years.

 

We are shoving young people into a horribly broken and untenable economic situation, and then blaming them for not succeeding.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

But 8, this assumes - alot.

 

I'm not trying to snark on you or your child, but it takes a certain level of income to be able to do what you've just written. And most people just don't have it.

 

When DH and I were in college, I worked as a dorm mother and he worked as a dorm janitor (both 20-30 hours a week) in addition to taking 16 hours of classes. Every summer was minimally 40 hours of work at the highest paying jobs we could find. For him, that was living at his parents and doing manual labor (construction paid really well back then), for me, it was living with my sister in the "big city" and going on "temp jobs" at big companies. There was no "oh, I think I'll go work "in my field" for experience" option. It was purely money driven. Could we get enough money to go another year or not?

 

I think it would be lovely if all kids could be the "package deal" that your kid is, but I don't think that is an economic reality.

 

If DH and I both hadn't worked before college and then had sheer chutzpah, we probably wouldn't have been "competitive" against kids like yours. We had the GPAs, but there was no way we had the time for all of that other stuff.

 

I think there are many "asta and husband" kids out there. (and we weren't even married yet)

 

 

a

 

OK, but you were still filling your summers with work, and it sounds like work that was going to demonstrate a hard work ethic and an ability to handle lots of situations. I see many teens who spend their entire summer on down time vacation activities.

 

One of my favorite lines was one I overheard from a high schooler who had applied to the very nice summer hire program at our last base. He was telling his friends that if he didn't get picked to work in the teen center then he wasn't going to bother. In other words, if his work assignment wasn't indistinguishable from his leisure activities, then he wasn't working. This same base had generously paying positions in youth sports go unfilled for over a year, because they couldn't find anyone willing to commit to working weekends (ie, when the youth sports activities were held).

 

Work is, well, work. It's an awesome bonus if you can be interning in your field. But don't act all entitled to several months of beach and pool because you've been working your brain so hard.

 

(Though maybe I'm just a bitter grump because most of my college summers were spent on doing training on ships and doing summer school. I rarely got more than a couple weeks totally off.)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I have to ask what choices were these individuals making? The first student highlighted, Eric, says that he has $185,000 in debt. If you look at the school he attended, tuition, room and board, etc. will be less than $37,000 a year for the 2011-2012 school year. I could only assume that his expenses per year were less than that five or so years ago when he started school. Assuming he had no financial aid, no money saved up for college, no summer or part-time job to help pay for expenses, why does he have more than 4 X 37,000 in debt?

 

Also, to take 30 years at $1800 a month payment to pay off a $185,000 debt, he would have to be paying an 11.3% interest rate. I don't know of any student loans with that high of an interest rate in today's market.

 

Is some of the debt non-college related consumer debt? Books? Travel to and from university? Maybe off campus housing?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think we'll be seeing more and more of these.

 

Discussion?

 

I think that there are many people who are realizing that they've bought things that weren't worth the debt. High end cars, ever bigger houses, degrees that might not be something that would make them employable.

 

There is a huge premium attached to the brand name of some colleges. The education received may or may not be worth the debt.

 

You have to be a really skeptical and educated consumer in order to weigh the relative benefits of different degree and college offerings.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Creekland, you must be living near me in the Twilight Zone.

 

The problem we have is that our area of Mid-Michigan has high numbers of anti-college people. They've all retired from GM, Ford, Chrysler, Delphi, etc. and went to work for these companies straight out of high school. They made fantastic livings, very comfortable, great benefits. This is what they planned for the kids and grandkids and their thinking isn't really based in cold, hard reality.

They some how think these jobs are still available. They aren't! Manufacturing has fled the state and the ensuing economic pitfalls it created, means that all kinds of other businesses are going out. Restaurant jobs - no one is hiring, Custodial jobs - no one is hiring, .....it goes on and on. But, they've convinced their kids and grandkids that they didn't need to apply themselves in school, they didn't need to have a career aspiration that would require additional education, etc.

 

I know eleven men who are out of work and though Michigan offers free job training (vocational school, professional licensing, community college, etc.), they refuse to take advantage of it. They still think that the factory, restaurant, custodial job, manufacturing support services job, etc. with health insurance will magically appear and it isn't happening. Construction companies have tanked as well, so forget learning drywalling, painting, framing...those used to be great ways to earn money, but not in this economy.

 

DD did go to EMT class with a man whose construction job ended and he did avail himself of the offer of free training. He enrolled in a really good two year fire science program as well as the EMT class. He is now gainfully employed in an urban fire department...decent salary and health benefits. As part of his training he received extensive hazmat training, FEMA training, and advanced rescue technics. As a result, if the department he works for has to make cuts, firefighters who have been there longer, will be laid off ahead of him because of his training. He told dd he was shocked to work with guys who hadn't taken a seminar, class, or skills refresher in over five years. He says they are convinced that the old system of seniority will save them though management has repeatedly warned them.

 

I think this article really does not address the bigger picture of long-term career viability and stability. It seems to be based on the huge assumption that the jobs of the past will still be abundantly available in the future and that those jobs will not be quick deadends.

 

Faith

 

When we lived in Hawaii, there was an attitude that I heard called Plantation Mentality. It was a way of thinking that stemmed from the days when there was so much work on cane and pineapple plantations that people could live in company housing, work, raise a family, all with minimal schooling but a lot of hard work. There are lots of families with kids in school who seem to think that this is still an option. Yet the last plantation on Oahu closed around 2007; families still living in company housing had about a month to move. What didn't seem to happen is a shift of that incredible work ethic from the fields to the classroom and thence on to other industries.

[Gwen in VA]

How much aid? And it's still there now? I don't know anybody who received aid for an internship from their college

 

Yup, the aid is still there now -- my kids and several of their friends at other colleges have had neat summer positions either doing research or interning at great organizations where grants from the college paid for all of the living expenses, including everything from housing to groceries and commuting expenses.

 

No, the grant money did not cover a salary, so if a student desperately needed to earn money during the summer, this opportunity is not feasible.

[8filltheheart]

And guess what? The co ops for degrees like Economics and Political Science are in places like D.C., or other seats of government where the pay is non-existent (oooo... don't you feel PRIVILEGED to be working in the PRESENCE of GOVERNMENT) and students are somehow expected to come up with the cash to live in the areas.

 

There aren't firms banging down the doors of universities for "soft science" students. But just *try* and get a job at the Federal Reserve or Morgan Stanley without a degree in Economics; it isn't going to happen. Can "go getter" students find things? Sure. If they have the financial means to do so. Because there are thousands of kids trying, and those slots are needles in a haystack.

 

Like twoforjoy essentially said, there is a place in this world for "other". Someone needs to do all of the stuff that ISN'T engineering or STEM. And they have to have college degrees to be allowed to do it as well.

 

Does that make sense.

 

 

a

 

ETA: Public finance, International Econ, Econometrics et al are NOT easy subjects. We're not talking "business math" here. We're talking advanced statistical analysis of local, state and world economies; how they came into being, what internal and external pressures they face, and how they interact with one another in the aggregate. There is a a type of thinking, a type of intelligence, if you will that is needed to be able to do this. And it is very, very necessary in order for governments to be able to function. It affects everything from "what is the best way to pay for a new sewer system" to "how do we get the local polluter to stop doing so" to "how best do we stop a dictator" to "how do we quicken/slow down an economy" (leave it alone! it's cyclical - it will right itself!). These are not unimportant, useless things because they aren't "STEM" degrees. I would argue that in some ways, they are more important: they keep the world from literally blowing up.

 

ETA2: Now that kid is awake and discussing - it is the historians, the sociologists, and the psychologists who are watching the patterns of human behavior in society at large that allow heads of state to manage diplomacy. Yes, sometimes that diplomacy is weak or breaks down completely - but there is a reason the world hasn't had another true Hitler or Pol Pot: there are all of these "worthless degrees" running around yelling FIRE at consulates and embassies when heads of state go a wee bit too far down certain paths.

 

 

asta

 

I don't buy it, Asta. For finance experience, getting involved in the funding drives for the university, working in the finance dept, capital campaign drives for local hospitals, local gov'ts, etc. For the industrious student searching for opportunities, they can be found.

 

Political experience can be gained through local gov't or the local offices of fed representatives. (I have had kids do both.)

 

For psychology majors, working in group homes is definitely viable option. (I have a BS in psy and I worked in a group home for autistic adults for a while during college....so I know it can be done.)

 

Top students that walk into professors offices and ask advice will be steered toward any possibilities or will offer letters of recommendations (especially for on-campus employment opportunities.)

 

I have never heard of a campus taht does not offer work-study for students that qualify for financial aid. Work-study is another possible source of funding.

 

You are not the only one that had to work multiple jobs to put yourself through school. My dh and I both did.....he worked 2 and I worked 3. Those are simply some of the hurdles that we made the decision to overcome in order to become college graduates. 2 siblings and I are the first college graduates in the history of my family and none of us received a single cent from our parents. It isn't as if college is a "free-ride" for the majority. I think our experience is far more the norm than the unusual.

 

ETA: also, museums are another source of opportunity, as are historical societies, etc.

Edited June 29, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart