"My Degree Isn't Worth the Debt!"

[asta]

I don't buy it, Asta. For finance experience, getting involved in the funding drives for the university, working in the finance dept, capital campaign drives for local hospitals, local gov'ts, etc. For the industrious student searching for opportunities, they can be found.

 

Political experience can be gained through local gov't or the local offices of fed representatives. (I have had kids do both.)

 

For psychology majors, working in group homes is definitely viable option. (I have a BS in psy and I worked in a group home for autistic adults for a while during college....so I know it can be done.)

 

Top students that walk into professors offices and ask advice will be steered toward any possibilities or will offer letters of recommendations (especially for on-campus employment opportunities.)

 

I have never heard of a campus taht does not offer work-study for students that qualify for financial aid. Work-study is another possible source of funding.

 

You are not the only one that had to work multiple jobs to put yourself through school. My dh and I both did.....he worked 2 and I worked 3. Those are simply some of the hurdles that we made the decision to overcome in order to become college graduates. 2 siblings and I are the first college graduates in the history of my family and none of us received a single cent from our parents. It isn't as if college is a "free-ride" for the majority. I think our experience is far more the norm than the unusual.

 

ETA: also, museums are another source of opportunity, as are historical societies, etc.

 

I never said I was the only one to work through school. In fact, I said the opposite.

 

Work study doesn't pay for a kid to go spend their summer being an intern somewhere. It doesn't exist ad infinitum, either. It is a program. Programs have limits. When the slots are filled, they are filled. Not all students get them, even if they "apply early" or are "great candidates". Life isn't perfect.

 

I'm getting nowhere with this: you have to have the money to eat and have a roof over your head before you can "work" for free. You have to have transportation for most things. You have to have the right clothes. It doesn't matter where that "work" is. If you don't have that kind of squeak in your budget (for whatever reason - the reason is irrelevant), those "opportunities" aren't going to happen. I had kids like this in my dorm. Yes, it is possible to be too poor.

 

I'm not angry about my college experience. I had a GREAT college experience. What I'm trying to point out is that not everyone does. They can do "all the right things" and still get none of the "bennies". And it is a disservice to assume that they "didn't try hard enough" or "didn't seek out enough resources". Not everyone on the planet is coming from a place of unlimited mental energy to do that. Nor is everyone coming from a place where they were even raised to believe that it exists.

 

I better step out of here now.

 

 

asta

 

 

 

a

[justamouse]

 

 

It's a horrible situation these young people are caught up in.

 

A freakin men. To every word.

 

My 'niece' just graduated Northeastern over 100k in debt, and now is off to law school. Her job prospects and slim and none. It positively sucks.

[laughing lioness]

I finished a Master's degree 3 years ago, a perk of my dh's job. My fellow students took student loans to pay tuition, pay for weddings, go to Israel (a trip sponsered by the school we were at), pay for honeymoons in Hawaii, put down payments on houses, buy cars and dress really, really well. Student loans are abused. How can you NOT know not to go 6 figures into debt for a Master's degree??

[wapiti]

. 

 

Edited March 27, 2015 by wapiti

[newlifemom]

Great conversation ladies. Thank you. :bigear:

[Medstudent]

I finished a Master's degree 3 years ago, a perk of my dh's job. My fellow students took student loans to pay tuition, pay for weddings, go to Israel (a trip sponsered by the school we were at), pay for honeymoons in Hawaii, put down payments on houses, buy cars and dress really, really well. Student loans are abused. How can you NOT know not to go 6 figures into debt for a Master's degree??

 

Not saying that it's all legitimate, but as someone who is currently living 100% on loans, I can tell you that it's REALLY hard to spend 4 years living on the absolute, bare minimum. I use my loans to pay rent, food, gas, and bills. But I go weeks without doing anything but studying and yes, when I'm done, I want to reward myself in some way. I'll go out for drinks with friends, maybe I'll even buy myself something nice. Of course I know that I'll have to pay it back twice over. I even know that it's unwise. I'm generally a pretty rational person, so it's not like I'm too dumb to realize it. But I eat, breathe and sleep school, and I miss wearing nice things occasionally and I miss going to a nice restaurant and I miss having a life. If I were in a position to get married right now, I'd probably spend loan money on that- I'd have no choice in the matter, there's no other money coming in. I could wait until I graduated, but it's not like I'll be making six figures from the get-go, and I'll be paying back these loans so I won't exactly just have 5k in my account at once like I do now when my loan check comes in. I know many friends who used their loan money to buy engagement rings for their fiancees, too. We have put our lives on hold for the pursuit of our career already, and we don't really get to move forward with anything. We don't even know where we'll be or what we'll be doing 3 years from now, so yeah, I don't blame them for trying to go on with at least one part of their personal life in the only way they can. We're not even allowed to have a part-time job, not that any of us would be crazy enough to try it.

 

So I'm not saying everyone uses their loans legitimately, because they don't. I for one am waiting for my next loan check to buy a new fancy computer. I could probably do with a lesser one, but you know, I haven't done anything fun in over a month and I deserve it. I live alone- I could live more cheaply if I had a roommate, but I also would have more trouble focusing on my schoolwork, so that won't work. I could live farther away from campus, but frankly when you have to go in to work at 4:00 am, the last thing you need is a long commute. I have a full tuition scholarship because I worked my butt off, so I accept that I'm splurging on cost of living, and that's fine. I'm a human being, and I'm not perfect. I don't want to walk uphill both ways to school, I want to stay relatively sane at the end of the day.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Medstudent

[laughing lioness]

My dh and I are still paying off student loans from grad school. We both worked several jobs during school and he has worked like a mad man since. We are still paying off loans...we were encouraged to take out loans. Grad school was private and expensive. We were told, "no problem, you'll be making x amount of dollars, so x amount a month in loans will be so easy to pay off." By the 2nd year (of a doctoral program) we realized how much debt we'd have adn really considered him leaving the program. But we already had so much debt we figured we might as well get the degree. And Dh has made x amount of dollars. And yet we are still paying off loans. Funny how illness and car accidents and car transmissions and maternity bills, etc.etc. keep popping up. And yes, we lived very frugally, and still do live within a strict budget. But what people fail to mention is that there is an expectation that if you are married both adults work, you'll have 1.6 kids, your parents will kick in to help pay off your loans and unexpected bills won't happen. Yeah. All of that. My dh is so employeable, makes great money and the loans are a thorn in our side. We are still paying them off. And it just blows me away that people take out the kind of debt that they do without a highly marketable/employable skill/job/trade (cause we have one and the loans are still cooking our grits).

So, when I saw folks using their loans to take luxery vacations...wow.

[Halftime Hope]

several have mentioned summer internships paying a wage or stipend, but in some fields summer internships are essentially volunteer work. In this area of the country, summer internships in criminal justice jobs are a real nice bennie for the court systems and for the police departments who have all this lovely free labor for the summer. Not a cent goes into those kids' pockets. :angry: I have a friend whose dd is working a mimimum wage summer job b/c she can't afford to take an internship and she is worried about how that will affect her employability when compared to her peers.

[Colleen in NS]

Not saying that it's all legitimate, but as someone who is currently living 100% on loans, I can tell you that it's REALLY hard to spend 4 years living on the absolute, bare minimum. I use my loans to pay rent, food, gas, and bills. But I go weeks without doing anything but studying and yes, when I'm done, I want to reward myself in some way. I'll go out for drinks with friends, maybe I'll even buy myself something nice. Of course I know that I'll have to pay it back twice over. I even know that it's unwise. I'm generally a pretty rational person, so it's not like I'm too dumb to realize it. But I eat, breathe and sleep school, and I miss wearing nice things occasionally and I miss going to a nice restaurant and I miss having a life. If I were in a position to get married right now, I'd probably spend loan money on that- I'd have no choice in the matter, there's no other money coming in. I could wait until I graduated, but it's not like I'll be making six figures from the get-go, and I'll be paying back these loans so I won't exactly just have 5k in my account at once like I do now when my loan check comes in. I know many friends who used their loan money to buy engagement rings for their fiancees, too. We have put our lives on hold for the pursuit of our career already, and we don't really get to move forward with anything. We don't even know where we'll be or what we'll be doing 3 years from now, so yeah, I don't blame them for trying to go on with at least one part of their personal life in the only way they can. We're not even allowed to have a part-time job, not that any of us would be crazy enough to try it.

 

So I'm not saying everyone uses their loans legitimately, because they don't. I for one am waiting for my next loan check to buy a new fancy computer. I could probably do with a lesser one, but you know, I haven't done anything fun in over a month and I deserve it. I live alone- I could live more cheaply if I had a roommate, but I also would have more trouble focusing on my schoolwork, so that won't work. I could live farther away from campus, but frankly when you have to go in to work at 4:00 am, the last thing you need is a long commute. I have a full tuition scholarship because I worked my butt off, so I accept that I'm splurging on cost of living, and that's fine. I'm a human being, and I'm not perfect. I don't want to walk uphill both ways to school, I want to stay relatively sane at the end of the day.

 

I'm completely boggled by this mentality.

 

I'm sorry, I don't mean to pick on your post. But is this really a common mentality among university students these days??

 

I ask because there are bucketsful of women on these boards who are 20, 30, 40 years into our adulthoods; who KNOW, to a far greater extent, the "hardships" you describe. But have survived and thrived just fine, and have learned a thing or two from these situations. You are going to have a lot more difficult things thrown at you in life, than the "hardships" you have described here. I can not understand why students would put themselves in such deep financial jeopardy for the next however many years, in order to do the things you describe. You just never know what life is going to throw at you.

 

ETA: I'm not knocking the occasional small treat - but the mentality of nice clothes, restaurant meals, drinks with friends, deserving a fancy computer because you spent a little over a month with no fun, $5,000 student loan for a wedding, nicer engagement rings, all because you've "put your life on hold and don't get to move forward because of your career" - THAT is what is really boggling my mind.

 

ETA again: and again, it's not you in particular I'm addressing - I'm just blown away that this is possibly the mentality of many university students these days. I am finding it impossible to generate any sympathy.

 

ETA one more time: And I'm one of those parents who, when thinking about university for my kids, realizes that loans are probably going to be a part of the scene. But I am also going to encourage my kids to live at home for university (we live near several) and for them to live as frugally as possible in their early adult years, so they can get a decent start in life. I read somewhere that you are going into 3rd year med school, and I realize that's a little different. But if you're going to be a doctor, you have so many opportunities to get a good start in life - why waste that on some temporary expensive pleasures?

Edited June 30, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[justasque]

I'll go out for drinks with friends, maybe I'll even buy myself something nice.

Think about free concerts in the park, a nice walk in the city with some window shopping, going to the library and geting armloads of chick-lit and a couple of world-music CDs, poking your nose in a thrift shop to see if they have a nice summer skirt in your size. Have your friends over for drinks, or BYOB to a summer free event. If nothing else, stick to a strict budget, so that you know when you can have a guilt-free mini-splurge.

 

But I eat, breathe and sleep school, and I miss wearing nice things occasionally and I miss going to a nice restaurant and I miss having a life.

It's very hard. But the less you spend now, the more choices you'll have for your life later. I can't tell you how many heartbroken moms I've talked to who HAD to leave their babies to go to work, because of the choices they made as students. Try to get through with as little debt as possible.

 

If I were in a position to get married right now, I'd probably spend loan money on that- I'd have no choice in the matter, there's no other money coming in.

You don't have to spend money to get engaged or married. That's not what it's about. You can have a tiny little DIY wedding and a nice small reception at your parent's house - that's what a lot of my friends did, and they've all had long, happy relationships. The size of the ring (if any) and the lavishness of the wedding have nothing to do with what getting married is really about.

[Medstudent]

I'm completely boggled by this mentality.

 

I'm sorry, I don't mean to pick on your post. But is this really a common mentality among university students these days??

 

I ask because there are bucketsful of women on these boards who are 20, 30, 40 years into our adulthoods; who KNOW, to a far greater extent, the "hardships" you describe. But have survived and thrived just fine, and have learned a thing or two from these situations. You are going to have a lot more difficult things thrown at you in life, than the "hardships" you have described here. I can not understand why students would put themselves in such deep financial jeopardy for the next however many years, in order to do the things you describe. You just never know what life is going to throw at you.

 

ETA: I'm not knocking the occasional small treat - but the mentality of nice clothes, restaurant meals, drinks with friends, deserving a fancy computer because you spent a little over a month with no fun, $5,000 student loan for a wedding, nicer engagement rings, all because you've "put your life on hold and don't get to move forward because of your career" - THAT is what is really boggling my mind.

 

ETA again: and again, it's not you in particular I'm addressing - I'm just blown away that this is possibly the mentality of many university students these days. I am finding it impossible to generate any sympathy.

 

ETA one more time: And I'm one of those parents who, when thinking about university for my kids, realizes that loans are probably going to be a part of the scene. But I am also going to encourage my kids to live at home for university (we live near several) and for them to live as frugally as possible in their early adult years, so they can get a decent start in life. I read somewhere that you are going into 3rd year med school, and I realize that's a little different. But if you're going to be a doctor, you have so many opportunities to get a good start in life - why waste that on some temporary expensive pleasures?

 

Think about free concerts in the park, a nice walk in the city with some window shopping, going to the library and geting armloads of chick-lit and a couple of world-music CDs, poking your nose in a thrift shop to see if they have a nice summer skirt in your size. Have your friends over for drinks, or BYOB to a summer free event. If nothing else, stick to a strict budget, so that you know when you can have a guilt-free mini-splurge.

 

 

It's very hard. But the less you spend now, the more choices you'll have for your life later. I can't tell you how many heartbroken moms I've talked to who HAD to leave their babies to go to work, because of the choices they made as students. Try to get through with as little debt as possible.

 

 

You don't have to spend money to get engaged or married. That's not what it's about. You can have a tiny little DIY wedding and a nice small reception at your parent's house - that's what a lot of my friends did, and they've all had long, happy relationships. The size of the ring (if any) and the lavishness of the wedding have nothing to do with what getting married is really about.

 

I knew from the get-go that not everyone would appreciate my post, and I get it. Believe it or not, I understand the actual meaning of "hardship" and I never said that living frugally is one. I just give myself a break once in a while, and I don't feel guilty for it. I admitted that a lot of what I allow myself is a luxury, I just don't feel bad about it because I figure I'm working hard in the process. I never had any intention of marrying young, and I have always wanted to have a career. It isn't in me to be a stay at home mom, so that's never really been a consideration. Had I chosen that path, I definitely wouldn't have gone to med school- too many years of hard work to then not reap the benefits. My mom was a stay at home mom for a long time, and I appreciated her being there, it just isn't what I want.

 

I worked full time for a couple of years after I graduated college. I supported myself and paid off some of my college loans. I understand what money is, I understand what it means to have it and what it means not to have it. I'd be lying if I said that I hadn't considered that the medical field is well-paid- precisely because I know what it's like to not have money, and well, I don't like it. But yes, I went to a private university, and I took out loans, and I lived on campus and loved every moment of being away from home because it made me grow up. I had a scholarship going in, and I worked 2 jobs every semester, graduated cum laude with two majors and a minor and a concentration in premed. The only job I could get out of college was across the country, so I packed my bags and left. I had lived 5 hours away from home for 4 years already, so the choice was a very easy one. And when I got into med school, I got into a top 5 school near home and a top 15 somewhere I never thought I'd want to live, and when the top 15 gave me a full ride, I went there and never looked back. I'm not bragging, I'm just pointing out that I've done my due diligence. The average debt for medical students is now about 180k-200k. Mine will be maybe 90 altogether, including my college ones.

 

I don't know if all "young people" think the way I do, but I do know that not all "young people" do what I do. I sacrificed a lot of personal relationships and really spent my teens and first half of my twenties working my butt off so I could be in this position now. If it makes me seem entitled, that's fine. I just really don't see the need to walk uphill both ways. Last time I bought a computer, I was working. I've never had a credit card because I prefer to pay for things in full. I'm genuinely, truly not asking for sympathy because I'm really happy with where things are, so I'm sorry if that's how it came off. I chose this. Frankly, had my mom suggested I live at home for college, I would have absolutely refused. I wanted the full college experience, the growth inherent to not having a safety net, the independence- and thankfully, my grades and a work-study program allowed me to do that. I had various unpaid positions over the summers and I did live at my mom's for that, thankfully she lives near some great hospitals.

 

I had to take the medical board exams this past week. I spent a full 6 weeks without one afternoon, evening, or day off. Every day consisted of me sitting at a desk for 14 hours, going to bed and doing it again the next day. Do I feel like I deserve something for that? Yes. I'm sorry if that seems crazy or offensive, but I have no problem with taking some of my loan money and spending it on something I really want. It's not a hardship, it's not a situation that deserves sympathy, but I do think that I earned it. I am lucky in that the medical field will always need more people- I'll never be out of a job. Would I be acting differently and taking out half as much money if I were in law school? I don't know. Maybe. But honestly, other than the very occasional luxury, I don't think that many of my choices are insane. Yes, I live in a nice place a couple of blocks away from campus alone. My mom actually insisted I live close to school because I have to go back and forth at crazy hours of the night so she doesn't want me to have to drive through unsafe areas, so that was more for her than for myself. As for living alone, it's a luxury that has really helped me focus on school, which is what I'm here for, and which will ultimately allow me to make the money to pay back my loans in the first place- so I'm glad I'm living alone, extra cost or not.

 

So I don't know if this is the "mentality of college students nowadays", but it certainly is mine. If I'm just another example of my generation of spoiled, entitled young people, that's fine. I'm doing what I want to do the way that makes sense to me and independently of my family, so I'm ok with where I am right now.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Medstudent

[Jane in NC]

I knew from the get-go that not everyone would appreciate my post, and I get it. Believe it or not, I understand the actual meaning of "hardship" and I never said that living frugally is one. I just give myself a break once in a while, and I don't feel guilty for it. I admitted that a lot of what I allow myself is a luxury, I just don't feel bad about it because I figure I'm working hard in the process. I never had any intention of marrying young, and I have always wanted to have a career. It isn't in me to be a stay at home mom, so that's never really been a consideration. Had I chosen that path, I definitely wouldn't have gone to med school- too many years of hard work to then not reap the benefits. My mom was a stay at home mom for a long time, and I appreciated her being there, it just isn't what I want.

 

 

 

(Gently.) Many of us work hard and have worked hard for much of our lives. I am not sure that this is a good basis for justification of certain financial decisions.

 

I am aware that med school, law school and other professional programs usually require students to take on a fair amount of debt. When I attended graduate school (Mathematics--trust me--I worked hard), I was a teaching assistant who was provided with a stipend which paid the rent, bought my books, and allowed for a carefully selected bag or two of groceries weekly. The only debt I incurred in those years came about from a medical situation. I suppose that I could have had a higher quality lifestyle in grad school, but I chose to have minimal debt.

 

Perhaps there is a family ethos that one inherits regarding finances. My niece, the attorney, qualified for free tuition in law school but incurred debt for rent and food. Like you, she was not in a position to work as a student although she did have some income during the summers. Here total law school debt, like your total medical school debt, is below average. But does this justify borrowing to spend on luxuries?

 

In the larger picture, I am concerned about the cost of professional programs in that certain choices about the kind of medicine or law that is practiced may be made on how much debt the student has. Family practice doctors do not reel in the bucks. So if a future family practice doctor has undergraduate debt as well as med school debt, she can expect large loan repayments which can consume her salary. (Although my sister in law the family practice doctor reduced her loans by working with an under-served population. She has made a career of working with low income people, something she could not have done with a heavy debt load and without debt forgiveness.)

 

My son will be attending grad school, assuming he continues on his path. Thus my goal is for him to have a debt free undergraduate education. His part is maintaining his merit aid, while earning book and spending money in the summer. His parents will assist him with the remainder. Not everyone at his LAC is so fortunate.

 

That said, I think that posters here on our boards have seen a lot of life. Things happen. Disability suddenly impairs a life but the debt does not go away. I think the implication is to borrow wisely. And remember that you are not alone in working hard.

 

Good luck in your future career,

Jane

[Halftime Hope]

agreeing with Colleen here. I think the way we (Colleen and I )look at things is not, I deserve such and such, rather, I have done my work, I earned the money, and now I can spend it. I have completed my work, therefore I earned a break. We accept that we have to earn this or that thing. Not, I deserve such and such, therefore I can have it whether I can pay for it or not.

 

We have balance (when life doesn't throw us curveballs) because we accept that to have one thing (possessions or leisure time) we must first pay our dues and earn our way to whatever we want.

 

I can't tell you the number of times that I have had this conversation with three teens. : ) It's not, I've worked hard, I deserve a break. No, it's I've worked hard and completed x, now I *can afford* to take a break. I may not be done with my work, but the outstanding work is manageable in the time left, even when I consider that some task may be larger than I estimated, and it would be wise for me to have balance in my life and take that break.

 

I understand taking out debt for med school to enable you to keep body and spirit together, but I think the way Colleen and I look at it is that med school students (or any other kind of rigorous post-grad education) don't have "the right" to a certain kind of wedding or nice vacations or to splurge in certain ways. They have chosen a form of indentured servitude that, for most, will require austerity for a number of years--both austerity in relationships and in worldly goods--until they complete the task they have chosen. Then when they graduate, they will receive a handsome payback for the years of extreme effort. It is most unwise for students to gamble that they will be able to pay back huge amounts of debt that they used for anything above and beyond keeping fed and clothed.

 

Medstudent, I'm not picking on you, but people have no idea what things can come their way (things like 21 months of unemployment, when you are in the peak of your earning years; unexpected disability; a child horribly ill; mental illness; and many other misfortunes), disasters that with careful forethought and financial planning, might be weathered, but without the financial cushion and relational reserve (the years you've spent building trust and irreplaceability with a significant other), will be a perfect storm that will leave individuals and families unable to recover.

 

I'm completely boggled by this mentality.

 

I'm sorry, I don't mean to pick on your post. But is this really a common mentality among university students these days??

 

I ask because there are bucketsful of women on these boards who are 20, 30, 40 years into our adulthoods; who KNOW, to a far greater extent, the "hardships" you describe. But have survived and thrived just fine, and have learned a thing or two from these situations. You are going to have a lot more difficult things thrown at you in life, than the "hardships" you have described here. I can not understand why students would put themselves in such deep financial jeopardy for the next however many years, in order to do the things you describe. You just never know what life is going to throw at you.

 

ETA: I'm not knocking the occasional small treat - but the mentality of nice clothes, restaurant meals, drinks with friends, deserving a fancy computer because you spent a little over a month with no fun, $5,000 student loan for a wedding, nicer engagement rings, all because you've "put your life on hold and don't get to move forward because of your career" - THAT is what is really boggling my mind.

 

ETA again: and again, it's not you in particular I'm addressing - I'm just blown away that this is possibly the mentality of many university students these days. I am finding it impossible to generate any sympathy.

 

ETA one more time: And I'm one of those parents who, when thinking about university for my kids, realizes that loans are probably going to be a part of the scene. But I am also going to encourage my kids to live at home for university (we live near several) and for them to live as frugally as possible in their early adult years, so they can get a decent start in life. I read somewhere that you are going into 3rd year med school, and I realize that's a little different. But if you're going to be a doctor, you have so many opportunities to get a good start in life - why waste that on some temporary expensive pleasures?

[creekland]

Wasn't it McDonald's that started with the slogan, "You DESERVE a break today! (at McDonald's)" a few years back? (probably quite a few).

 

Med school aside, I know that this is the common belief today among many, if not most, in my generation and younger. I've had people who couldn't pay the rent confide to me that they bought themselves diamond earrings for their birthday because "they deserved it." I've seen many on welfare and similar programs enjoying more perks in life than our family does and each time they tell me they or their children "deserve" it as a way of explanation. I could go on and on, but I suspect many of us have heard similar lines.

 

I think the slogan has been adopted well and last I heard McDonald's was doing quite well even in this poor economy. I know many students getting free or reduced lunches at school eat there far more often than my family eats out period.

 

That said, I can understand needing a balance to life. I think the line needs to be drawn very wisely and I doubt any of us are perfect in hindsight. I'm hopeful my boys have learned to draw the line well. Oldest definitely has (so far). We'll soon find out with middle and youngest. We've been working to teach it to them by example (ours and that of people we see IRL).

 

Sometimes I think the biggest issue is that money issues are not taught. Slogans are readily accepted even if not individually thought about. Alg 2 is important (for many). Personal finance is important to all.

[Medstudent]

Ok well I'll make one last point and then we'll just agree to disagree.

 

 

Despite what it may seem, I actually know more about how random and cruel life can be than many people my age. Disability: check. Sudden death in the family that left us with no income: check. I had to move across the world when I was 13 and learn a new language in 2 months. I get it, life is chaos. Bad things happen.

I just came out of all this with a very different perspective. Thankfully, no one is dependent on me right now, and no one will be for a long time. As I said, I don't plan on getting married and having kids right now, and since that really ISN'T something that can happen by accident (unless someone tackles me and marries me against my will I guess, but I'm comfortable saying that that's pretty unlikely), I won't be having that issue for a while. I have two older sisters, both of whom have jobs, and my oldest sister is quite successful so I know that if something were to happen to my mom, she would help. I'd be useless regardless of how many loans I've taken out because of how hard it is to get a job right now, so it's pointless to think about that. My sisters both live in a country with free healthcare, so again, not something I need to worry about.

Yes, I could be struck by a car, I could go blind, I could have schizophrenia, there are 1000 reasons why I could suddenly become unable to continue on the path I'm on. Am I really supposed to spend my entire life making decisions based on every possible worst case scenario? "I can't spend 40 dollars on dinner right now, because if I were to be homeless, I might need 40 dollars to buy food for two days". Really? I take out maybe 2-3k per year more than what is absolutely necessary for me to survive, which comes up to 12k max in 4 years. By the time I pay them back, they'll be 20k. Yes, that's a lot of money. Am I willing to rent for an extra year or two to pay back those 20? Yes. Just as not buying a computer isn't a huge sacrifice, being a single working girl and renting an apartment instead of buying a house isn't a huge sacrifice either. I live within walking distance of the hospital, so if my car were to break down right now, I could easily go without for a bit, something I couldn't have done had I picked a cheaper place farther away. Does that make me more or less financially unwise? I get to take side roads to get to school so I'm less likely to be hit by a car, does that make me more financially savvy because I'm less likely to become incapacitated? I'm sorry, but as much as I'd like to think of myself as a pragmatist, I'm not going to make every choice based on the what if's. That's exhausting. Precisely because I know that catastrophe's can happen- I don't want to spend my 20s, which I'm already spending doing a lot of things I don't like to do, just awaiting the next catastrophe. Socrates said that "not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued" and while as a Catholic I've been generally trained not to agree completely, I do think that he has a point. The day that every member of my family gets sick at the same time and I fail out of school and can't find a job and need to start paying back my loans and every other member of my extended family can't help me, I guess I'll regret having spent an extra 2k per year on keeping myself sane. Until then, I'm comfortable with what I'm doing.

[creekland]

Ok well I'll make one last point and then we'll just agree to disagree.

 

 

Despite what it may seem, I actually know more about how random and cruel life can be than many people my age. Disability: check. Sudden death in the family that left us with no income: check. I had to move across the world when I was 13 and learn a new language in 2 months. I get it, life is chaos. Bad things happen.

I just came out of all this with a very different perspective. Thankfully, no one is dependent on me right now, and no one will be for a long time. As I said, I don't plan on getting married and having kids right now, and since that really ISN'T something that can happen by accident (unless someone tackles me and marries me against my will I guess, but I'm comfortable saying that that's pretty unlikely), I won't be having that issue for a while. I have two older sisters, both of whom have jobs, and my oldest sister is quite successful so I know that if something were to happen to my mom, she would help. I'd be useless regardless of how many loans I've taken out because of how hard it is to get a job right now, so it's pointless to think about that. My sisters both live in a country with free healthcare, so again, not something I need to worry about.

Yes, I could be struck by a car, I could go blind, I could have schizophrenia, there are 1000 reasons why I could suddenly become unable to continue on the path I'm on. Am I really supposed to spend my entire life making decisions based on every possible worst case scenario? "I can't spend 40 dollars on dinner right now, because if I were to be homeless, I might need 40 dollars to buy food for two days". Really? I take out maybe 2-3k per year more than what is absolutely necessary for me to survive, which comes up to 12k max in 4 years. By the time I pay them back, they'll be 20k. Yes, that's a lot of money. Am I willing to rent for an extra year or two to pay back those 20? Yes. Just as not buying a computer isn't a huge sacrifice, being a single working girl and renting an apartment instead of buying a house isn't a huge sacrifice either. I live within walking distance of the hospital, so if my car were to break down right now, I could easily go without for a bit, something I couldn't have done had I picked a cheaper place farther away. Does that make me more or less financially unwise? I get to take side roads to get to school so I'm less likely to be hit by a car, does that make me more financially savvy because I'm less likely to become incapacitated? I'm sorry, but as much as I'd like to think of myself as a pragmatist, I'm not going to make every choice based on the what if's. That's exhausting. Precisely because I know that catastrophe's can happen- I don't want to spend my 20s, which I'm already spending doing a lot of things I don't like to do, just awaiting the next catastrophe. Socrates said that "not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued" and while as a Catholic I've been generally trained not to agree completely, I do think that he has a point. The day that every member of my family gets sick at the same time and I fail out of school and can't find a job and need to start paying back my loans and every other member of my extended family can't help me, I guess I'll regret having spent an extra 2k per year on keeping myself sane. Until then, I'm comfortable with what I'm doing.

 

Speaking for myself, I actually think you're doing ok and would be ok with middle son following in your footsteps (so to speak). My mind extrapolates to many other students I know IRL from our public high school who have a similar mindset, but without the "backing" for it. A couple of years ago one student committed herself to 200K in loans for a music degree at a prestigious music school. Another from this past year is committing to 120K in loans for culinary school. Who knows. They MIGHT do ok. It's possible. But it's far less of a sure thing than being in med school. Nonetheless, the mindset of "they deserve it" is so similar - and scary. You do have a much more realistic plan IMO. They just "deserve it" and aren't really contemplating the future IMO. While I'm mostly anti-debt - especially seeing how hard we've (personally) been hit by this economy in a very short period of time, I do understand there are times when debt is a good investment. Yours is one of them. How much you choose to spend in luxuries is up to you. I wouldn't mind if my guy went out to eat once in a while. ;)

 

(Congrats on getting the scholarship to a top 15 med school by the way!)

[dirty ethel rackham]

I'm afraid that I don't get this comment either?? Co-ops and internships are a prime method for working one's way through college, not taking an easy ride. 8Fill's son is a shining example of a mature young man who is taking charge of life (marriage, baby, expenses) at an extraordinarily young age.

 

My son just graduated with his master's degree & managed to pay off his student loans in full due to the paid internship he worked at for several stretches of time over the years.

 

Are co-ops really that prevalent? When I was in college, only the top 2-3% got to do co-ops. Many businesses that used to hire summer interns can no longer justify it when they've had to lay off 20% of their workforce. Also, most of the co-ops were in the engineering field. If you weren't an engineer, you certainly were not going to get a co-op unless it was at your daddy's company.

 

I think co-ops are a little more common now, but I do think it is a stretch to say that they are a "prime" way of working through college. They are not opportunities available to everyone.

[Medstudent]

Speaking for myself, I actually think you're doing ok and would be ok with middle son following in your footsteps (so to speak). My mind extrapolates to many other students I know IRL from our public high school who have a similar mindset, but without the "backing" for it. A couple of years ago one student committed herself to 200K in loans for a music degree at a prestigious music school. Another from this past year is committing to 120K in loans for culinary school. Who knows. They MIGHT do ok. It's possible. But it's far less of a sure thing than being in med school. Nonetheless, the mindset of "they deserve it" is so similar - and scary. You do have a much more realistic plan IMO. They just "deserve it" and aren't really contemplating the future IMO. While I'm mostly anti-debt - especially seeing how hard we've (personally) been hit by this economy in a very short period of time, I do understand there are times when debt is a good investment. Yours is one of them. How much you choose to spend in luxuries is up to you. I wouldn't mind if my guy went out to eat once in a while. ;)

 

(Congrats on getting the scholarship to a top 15 med school by the way!)

 

:) thank you, needless to say I wasn't expecting it, so I was pretty blown away. It made picking my school a very easy decision.

[mcconnellboys]

What ever happened to those art students in Paris, starving in a cold garret, eh?

 

I knew a med student once who was already married with children. His wife loved to talk about the amount of their loans. While they were huge, he was immediately taken into a practice when he finished up and they paid off part of them up-front. The amount he was making was enough to pay off the rest in short order. I think there may still be that kind of mentality among med or law students - at least for those pretty sure of a place when they're finished.

 

The trouble is, I know plenty of truly brilliant folks with law degrees who have never practiced because they didn't have entre' into a law firm (and I guess didn't have the will to try to make it on their own).

 

There's a big firm here that's been laying off their older, experienced (higher paid) engineers for years. The younger engineers they've brought in aren't paid half as much. That's what I'm hearing the trend is going to be for doctors in upcoming years, too.... I'm not sure I'd counsel any students now majoring in such professional fields to rack up huge debts under the assumption that there'll be a quick pay-off once they enter the workforce. Things they are a changin'.... The workforce and the competition is global now, not just national or local....

[dirty ethel rackham]

I don't buy it, Asta. For finance experience, getting involved in the funding drives for the university, working in the finance dept, capital campaign drives for local hospitals, local gov'ts, etc. For the industrious student searching for opportunities, they can be found.

 

Most of the jobs available to students in these departments are telemarketing jobs. That's sales. That's marketing, not finance. Not everyone is cut out to go into marketing. If there are other positions, they are likely held by people who already have their college degree, not students.

 

Political experience can be gained through local gov't or the local offices of fed representatives. (I have had kids do both.)

 

Paid positions? Really? Most of these are volunteer positions or secretarial jobs. I am sorry but answering the phones for Joe Blow Politician is not going to magically make me a better candidate than working at a quickie mart.

 

For psychology majors, working in group homes is definitely viable option. (I have a BS in psy and I worked in a group home for autistic adults for a while during college....so I know it can be done.)

 

Only if these types of homes are within a reasonable distance and only if the hours don't conflict with class schedules. Again, many of these positions are volunteer, not paid.

 

Top students that walk into professors offices and ask advice will be steered toward any possibilities or will offer letters of recommendations (especially for on-campus employment opportunities.)

 

They key word here is "top". What if one is a very good student, but not one of the "elite"? At a big university, there may be 10 students that a professor will make time for. The others may be very good students, but not the pets that he will allow in his inner circle.

 

I have never heard of a campus taht does not offer work-study for students that qualify for financial aid. Work-study is another possible source of funding.

 

 

There may be a large gap between what one can afford to pay for college and what a college may decide is "demonstrated need." Lots of kids need to work in college, but do not qualify for financial aid to get work study. Also, the amount of work study quoted in the aid package often does not come through in reality. A student may not be able to get enough hours to make that amount in work study. My niece is finding this right now. She got about half the hours promised.

[Medstudent]

What ever happened to those art students in Paris, starving in a cold garret, eh?

 

I knew a med student once who was already married with children. His wife loved to talk about the amount of their loans. While they were huge, he was immediately taken into a practice when he finished up and they paid off part of them up-front. The amount he was making was enough to pay off the rest in short order. I think there may still be that kind of mentality among med or law students - at least for those pretty sure of a place when they're finished.

 

The trouble is, I know plenty of truly brilliant folks with law degrees who have never practiced because they didn't have entre' into a law firm (and I guess didn't have the will to try to make it on their own).

 

There's a big firm here that's been laying off their older, experienced (higher paid) engineers for years. The younger engineers they've brought in aren't paid half as much. That's what I'm hearing the trend is going to be for doctors in upcoming years, too.... I'm not sure I'd counsel any students now majoring in such professional fields to rack up huge debts under the assumption that there'll be a quick pay-off once they enter the workforce. Things they are a changin'.... The workforce and the competition is global now, not just national or local....

 

Law and medicine are very different. Law in particular made some key mistakes. For one thing, law schools are very easy to start. The overhead isn't huge, and there aren't that many rules for how a law school needs to be run- pretty sure there are some online programs nowadays, too. If you just want a law degree, you don't really need to have great grades or great LSATs. You also don't have any pre-requisites in college. At base, anyone can go to law school if they put their mind to it.

Because of this, and because you can take the Bar as many times as you want, there are far, far more lawyers around than are needed. The supply is WAY more than the demand. That's why it really starts to matter where you went to school, where you were ranked within the school, and who you know.

 

Medicine is quite different. There are only 170something med schools in the whole country. It is very, very difficult to start one- you need everything from cadaver lab facilities to an affiliated hospital with enough residents to accommodate all the med students, enough high-ranking clinical folks willing to work in academia, etc. Medicine also requires a minimum of 10 pre-med classes in college, as well as the MCAT, which is much more knowledge-based than the LSAT is (meaning you have to have taken those classes in order to do well, you can't just study for 2 months and go for it). There is then a HUGE bottleneck, whereby only about 40% of applicants get into any med school in the US. Our Board exams are graded, not pass/fail, and we can't take them more than once. And finally, when we get out, we encounter the doctor shortage. We may not get everything we want- not everyone is going to have the scores to be a plastic surgeon, not everyone will be able to go to their favorite location for training- but we're basically guaranteed a job. The AMA does a good job of making sure what happened to Law will never happen to us- the doctor shortage makes it so we'll never be without a job, our extremely rigorous entrance requirements make it so very few people actually fail out or drop out before they finish, and the control held over the programs at each med school make it so you don't have to go to Harvard to get a job when you graduate.

 

No, it's not like it was 30 years ago. Doctors don't make the huge bucks anymore, now they just make as much as any high-level professional. I'll never be Fortune 500 rich. But the jobs are there, and I should have enough money to put a roof over my own head, have a car to drive, have food to eat, and have a little left over for my loans.

 

As for group practices hiring younger doctors for less- of course. Again, medicine doesn't make the kind of money it did 10-20 years ago. Doctors straight out of residency don't make much, although salaries do go up with time and experience. This also doesn't consider the fact that not everyone wants to work in a private practice, and not every specialty CAN be practiced that way. I have zero intention of working in a group practice. I don't have any interest in the business side of things, I dont want to hire and fire, I don't want to advertise to have patients come to me and rely on word of mouth- no thank you. If you work for a hospital, you get paid a salary- it's usually less than you'd make working for yourself, but I'll never have to worry about malpractice insurance or hiring my nurses or trying to get patients to come to me. I'll be less "in touch" with the day to day earnings so I'll be able to (presumably) give less biased medical care. I'm really ok with that.

[Colleen in NS]

...it's REALLY hard to spend 4 years living on the absolute, bare minimum. I use my loans to pay rent, food, gas, and bills.

 

...I understand the actual meaning of "hardship" and I never said that living frugally is one.

 

You emphasized "REALLY hard" in reference to living frugally. Because it was in reply to laughing lioness's seemingly flabbergasted comment about luxury spending with student loans, it came across as complaining that living frugally is such a hardship.

 

I never had any intention of marrying young, and I have always wanted to have a career. It isn't in me to be a stay at home mom, so that's never really been a consideration. Had I chosen that path, I definitely wouldn't have gone to med school- too many years of hard work to then not reap the benefits.

 

Again, you never know what life will bring you. You may just get married someday, have children, and decide you would like to stay at home with them and work part time. There are several board participants here who are physicians who work part-time while raising and homeschooling their children. But that's the kind of thing that, if you have loans for luxuries that you are still paying back, could be limited because of your previous choices. People do change their minds about what they want in life.

 

I just really don't see the need to walk uphill both ways....I wanted the full college experience, the growth inherent to not having a safety net, the independence...

 

Don't be surprised though, if in ten or fifteen years, you look back and see the need for walking uphill both ways at times. I can't understand how using loans to pay for rewards = independence. You're dependent on a bank for years.

 

I had to take the medical board exams this past week. I spent a full 6 weeks without one afternoon, evening, or day off. Every day consisted of me sitting at a desk for 14 hours, going to bed and doing it again the next day. Do I feel like I deserve something for that? Yes. ...I am lucky in that the medical field will always need more people- I'll never be out of a job.

 

I'm doing what I want to do the way that makes sense to me and independently of my family, so I'm ok with where I am right now.

 

It would be interesting to see what you think in 15 years or so. Your six weeks of studying frankly sounds like a lot less work than parenting a newborn baby. And we get to parent the newborn for far longer than six weeks. I may feel at various checkpoints that I deserve a reward for all this parenting, yet I know if I were to rack up debt for these rewards, I would regret them later. I've seen too many people who have BTDT. Including a steadily employed physician.

 

Remember that you might think now you'll never be out of a job. But if something were to happen to you (yes, I know we can't live in the world of "what if" all the time), what about those $20,000 for luxuries? I can understand the loans for schooling - I understand the mentality of "university debt can be an investment," and certainly for someone training to be a physician. I see it as a carefully calculated gamble. I mean, we bought a house and it was a carefully calculated gamble. But if we want to maintain that and maintain our other responsibilities, we can't take the risk of going into debt for things that aren't going to pay us back later.

 

(Gently.) Many of us work hard and have worked hard for much of our lives. I am not sure that this is a good basis for justification of certain financial decisions.

 

:iagree:

 

agreeing with Colleen here. I think the way we (Colleen and I )look at things is not, I deserve such and such, rather, I have done my work, I earned the money, and now I can spend it. I have completed my work, therefore I earned a break. We accept that we have to earn this or that thing. Not, I deserve such and such, therefore I can have it whether I can pay for it or not.

 

We have balance (when life doesn't throw us curveballs) because we accept that to have one thing (possessions or leisure time) we must first pay our dues and earn our way to whatever we want.

 

:iagree:

 

Yes, I could be struck by a car, I could go blind, I could have schizophrenia, there are 1000 reasons why I could suddenly become unable to continue on the path I'm on. Am I really supposed to spend my entire life making decisions based on every possible worst case scenario? "I can't spend 40 dollars on dinner right now, because if I were to be homeless, I might need 40 dollars to buy food for two days". Really? I take out maybe 2-3k per year more than what is absolutely necessary for me to survive, which comes up to 12k max in 4 years. By the time I pay them back, they'll be 20k. Yes, that's a lot of money. Am I willing to rent for an extra year or two to pay back those 20? Yes.

 

To answer your question that I bolded, no. That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm simply talking about using money that's not yours to "reward" yourself while you are doing something difficult that *you chose to do.* You haven't earned the full reward yet of all your hard work, but you will someday. Why not wait til then to reap it? You'll reap more, sooner, if you wait.

 

I understand the desire for reward for hard work. But I think it's irresponsible and too risky to rack up debt for rewards. Speaking from years of experience, it's FAR more rewarding to reward myself for hard work, with something that I've *earned* and don't have to pay back. It's a feeling of accomplishment. This may sound silly to you, but I remember the first time I bought myself a new 400 g skein of *cotton* yarn in a colour I liked. I had been so used to using thrift store purchased acrylic yarn to make blankets and gifts for other people. Acrylic was OK, but cotton was so soft and not rough on my knitting/crocheting fingers, and the colours were prettier to me. But when I use that yarn, I use it freely because I've already paid for it. As a bonus, if I sell something I make with it, I get my money back!

 

I don't want to spend my 20s, which I'm already spending doing a lot of things I don't like to do, just awaiting the next catastrophe. Socrates said that "not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued" and while as a Catholic I've been generally trained not to agree completely, I do think that he has a point. The day that every member of my family gets sick at the same time and I fail out of school and can't find a job and need to start paying back my loans and every other member of my extended family can't help me, I guess I'll regret having spent an extra 2k per year on keeping myself sane. Until then, I'm comfortable with what I'm doing.

 

No one is talking about waiting for catastrophes. Just delayed gratification. There are a million little ways to reward yourself, to live a Socratic "good life," that don't require money that isn't yours. If you succeed in your goal to become an employed doctor, you have much potential to earn a decent living. Why gamble on what may not work out the way you hope now in your 20s? And, I thought you previously mentioned that you were independent of your family? But do you hope to depend on them if things don't work out as you hope?

 

I'm not trying to change your mind. Just challenging a mentality that does have a lot of risk involved. I suppose it's not unique to 20-somethings. I'm a 40-something, and I remember in my 20s a friend who had exactly $10 to his name. He didn't pay his room and board bill where we lived (I was the bookkeeper of the place - I saw things), and yet I remember the shock I felt when he took that $10 and went out for dinner and bought camera film for his hobby. I also knew he didn't have any more income coming to him that month. But he struggled and struggled with debt for years. It really wears on a person after a few years.

 

But the jobs are there, and I should have enough money to put a roof over my own head, have a car to drive, have food to eat, and have a little left over for my loans.

 

Nothing leftover for future luxuries you may want? I hope you don't end up saying "My degree isn't worth the debt!" at the end of all your hard work.

[laughing lioness]

No, it's not like it was 30 years ago. Doctors don't make the huge bucks anymore, now they just make as much as any high-level professional. I'll never be Fortune 500 rich. But the jobs are there, and I should have enough money to put a roof over my own head, have a car to drive, have food to eat, and have a little left over for my loans.

 

QUOTE]

 

My dh is in a profession that has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. Yet the jobs are there. He can work anywhere for very good money, we've always had a roof over our head, cars to drive, food to eat and a little left over for loans. Yet the loan payment is waaay more than a little. It's a LOT. And it has determined a lot of how we live. Just saying....