s/o educational standards

[Night Elf]

In response to the resurrected thread on homeschoolers lowering their standards, I wanted to start a new discussion. Exactly what standards are being used as the measuring stick in the first place? If the point of that thread was to force us to see if we are or are not measuring up, where is the set of standards we can use?

 

Or are we talking in generalities, like children should be doing at least 4th grade math if they are in 4th grade? But even then, how do we take into account that not all 4th grade math programs are exactly alike?

 

Or, let's take writing, which is something I see discussed quite often. Where can I learn exactly what is expected in each grade level? Is there a specific point that worries people? If a 6th grader only writes 4 essays in his course and that isn't enough, how about 5? 6? 8?

 

Now, I know that most of us on this board are at least familiar with The Well-Trained Mind. SWB gives us great information, but does that mean her ideas are the standard in general? It could be for most of us because her ideas resonate with us and we aim to follow her advice. But does that mean that when we see someone else homeschooling without following WTM that they are not measuring up to the "standard"?

 

I know, I'm rambling. Since yesterday, I've been thinking about that post and also about how judgmental some people can be. I'm just trying to figure out how a person develops that judgment, because it must be based on something particular.

 

Does any of this make sense? I need another cup of coffee. :tongue_smilie:

[pdalley]

Makes sense to me.

 

Having three with various disabilities I often wonder if I'm doing enough or doing the right thing or what the right thing is or what it looks like.

 

I do know in our case that our kids are light years ahead of where they were in public school so I must be doing something right. There the environmental distractions were too much for them to concentrate on academics.

 

It is very hard when you have three that are all over the place as far as skills go to know where to set the bar. I think we all agree we want to set it up a little higher than ability of the student but is is VERY hard to see where that is - with any child - IMO.

 

Right now I feel I'm cheating the oldest because one expert that works with him says he's ready for one level and can do it and the other is telling me I need to adjust my expectations. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm already walking a tight rope over shark infested waters so I try to not stress about if I'm meeting some unknown standard.

 

Now does that make sense? I too am on one cup of coffee.

[Night Elf]

Oh, and I forgot to address the time issue. The OP of that other thread was worked up because of the idea that someone might take time off even though they may be behind. That implies there is a certain amount of school that should be done in a given time period. Doesn't that vary by location? And that also implies that if the child is behind, they should be working beyond that time limit. In Georgia, we are supposed to school the equivalent of 4.5 hours a day for 180 days. That is 810 hours. So if my child is behind, by whatever definition, should he be working more than 810 hours? How many more hours? Would a parent who chooses to school the legally required amount be considered negligent if their child was behind in any fashion? If someone knows I'm taking a week off of school even though my child is behind, are they right in saying the vacation is not deserved until the work is caught up? And then we're right back to the idea of standards because I would need to know exactly what 'caught up' means so that I can assure my child is at that point so we can take a day off?

[regentrude]

I prefer to look more on a general educational goal rather than year-by-year standards which are only geared towards some "average" student and rather arbitrary. I do not see grade level standards as very useful - what would they mean for a 4th grader who tests as reading on high school level? Would it be sensible to suspend his English instruction? Or a 6th grader who is taking algebra - would it be sensible to have him stop doing math till 9th grade because only then he would begin "being behind"?

 

I rather look at overall educational goals: what skills and knowledge base do I wish for my kid do develop by the time they graduate from high school? Where do we need to be each year in order to make that happen? What work ethic, study skills, dealing with challenges do I want them to develop?

 

I would be concerned about other homeschooled students if they did not engage in any subjects they don't enjoy, if they never have to put in an effort, if they make no progress.

So, an 8th grader who sits home all day reading and watching TV, has not done math in a year, does no formal science or history DOES worry me. OTOH, a student who is doing math at a much lower level than same age public school students, but is working on it regularly and is taught persistence does NOT worry me.

[Night Elf]

I imagine if you ask 100 homeschoolers they will all tell you something different. Even when people ask about grade levels or what is grade level appropriate I can only guess what they mean.

 

I know, and that is why I get so miffed when I see someone like that OP make such sweeping generalizations like her way is the only way. I'm bummed that she isn't around anymore because I would love to know how she formed those opinions. But there were other responses that agreed with her, and that implies others seem to see some set of standards too. I don't understand how these standards are set.

 

Some standards are obvious. For example, I think the greater majority of us will agree that we believe all children should graduate with the ability to read. But that thread didn't seem to be about that. It seemed to be attacking specific areas.

[usetoschool]

If my old brain is remembering correctly, the original intent was to talk about homeschoolers who are serious slackers. And slacking by anyone's standard. Most of the homeschoolers I know in real life are like that. There is no striving for any kind of excellence or even accomplishment and it shows in the kids. Many of them can't do basic math or spell at all or read beyond an elementary school level. School is just a whatever, when I get to it, life goes on, they will be fine kind of thing. Education is not taken seriously and certainly not done rigorously on a daily basis.

 

I don't think "others" are or were the standard. I think we know when we are doing the very best we can by our children and when we are making excuses. Sometimes life gets in the way and there are emergencies but when we take on the education of our children it is our responsibility to work hard to accomplish that goal. I think Sunshyne was reacting to some whining and excuse making and low standards.

 

I could really care less about the standards or schedule of the public school. I stepped out of that box a long time ago. It is my responsibility to make sure my child is learning to the best of his ability and always moving forward and doing the best he can.

Edited June 9, 2011 by jcooperetc
lack of spelling education at my house :)

[merry gardens]

I clicked on that other thread once, glance through it and decided not to read any further. I don't even want to click on it again because I know my homeschooling won't measure up to some people's standards.

 

We take standardized tests. That's a good measure of how the community outside of homeschoolers will measure our children.

 

I also use my "gut instinct" for standards. One of my children has reading struggles outside the range of "normal." I've adjusted what we do accordingly. I'm not ignoring the problem--we're working harder and longer than most people who don't face those same challenges. But we work based on different standards.

 

We don't work on grade levels--we work on ability levels. We take standardized testing based on grade levels.

[happyhomemaker25]

It was a hard thread for me. We had a couple of just plain rotten years. We did homeschool at least 3 good days every week, but it was not the level I wanted. I also knew that because we homeschool for more than just educational reasons my kids could not go to public school. I kept at it and we are coming out on the other side. Are my two older girls behind? Yes. Are we clawing our way back up and finding out that while academically we are not "up to par" ,emotionally and as a family we are light years ahead? Yep.

I'd rather have to drop back a little and review some of the basics with my kids then have to clean up the emotional damage that could have been done had they gone back to school.

Quiet frankly, most of my kids are not ever going to be the smartest in the bunch. Some lack the necessary brain power, some lack the ambition. I accept that and give them the best education *I* can.

They can read, write, and do basic math. They are closer than most siblings their age. My two older girls are growing to be responsible, well mannered, young ladies. My children respect their dad and I and they enjoy spending time with us. All of my children can pray your socks off :tongue_smilie:, because they believe that God hears and answers, and they love the Lord their God.

Now we are playing catch up because life has calmed down for the moment. They are doing great with their schoolwork. Even better than before. We just had our portfolio review and while I was biting my nails the teacher who reviewed our portfolios was more than encouraging and said she thought we were doing fine.

I think my educational standards have been met.

[ondreeuh]

The OP of that thread was distinguishing between parents who work with their kids to improve, and parents that do not, yet want reassurance that it's OK to not do anything.

 

My son is behind grade level in writing and spelling, and I have absolutely no guilt about that because I work with him every day using programs that target those skills, and he is making progress.

 

The yardstick I use is effort. If I am making a sincere effort to teach my child skills that are needed, have chosen appropriate materials, and am putting in the time necessary to see it through, then I am meeting my own standards.

 

Now, my daughter is older and capable of being more independent. My standards with her are to set clear expectations, guide her to meet them, and give her appropriate feedback. She still needs that guidance.

 

Basically, I feel that I need to do what is necessary for each child to ensure that they are making forward progress, but the degree of involvement depends on the child's needs.

[lionfamily1999]

I'm just sick of super parents swooping in to poo on my day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On a lighter note :D I gave Luke (my youngest) the CAT for Kindy in April. He had been doing some K work, I wanted to see what we would need to work on for this year in school. He did really well, except on Vocabulary. He failed (miserably) because of his imagination.

 

The question was, "What do you put in an aquarium?" He chose the cat. Now, I didn't say anything while we were doing the test (would have defeated the purpose), but later I asked him why he would put a cat in an aquarium.

 

His response, "All cats want to be in aquariums and if I could I would put Skids [dd's cat] in Gramma's aquarium."

 

:001_huh:

 

Luke, "So he can catch all the fish and eat them." He gave me the don't-you-know-anything look and everything.

 

:lol:

 

So even those standards are up for debate. Luke flunked the vocabulary section because he put too much thought into his answers. He personalized them and now he's a failure *snort*.

[Catherine]

I know PS kids who are many, many grade levels behind what is considered "grade level" by me, but it's hard to judge based on both slippery standards of the school, and the fact that many PS parents tend to judge how their kid is doing based on grades, and my judgement tends to be based on understanding and writing ability.

 

I have judged other homeschoolers in the past at times based on tiny snapshots and I know now how inaccurate that is. For instance, people's education\intellect is sometimes judged to be low based on poor spelling, and I think most of us realize that there's widely varying natural spelling ability, and that even the very best spelling program, implemented with plenty of review, cannot transform a terrible speller into anything but a barely OK speller (ask me how I know-LOL!) So the whole act of assessing a kid's level is not that easy or straightforward and may not take account of their quirks.

 

So yes, I've judged kids both homeschooled and not, but I'm trying to avoid that now that I'm enlightened : )

[Rosy]

I agree with you. I do think there's a difference between using the freedoms of homeschooling to achieve what's best for one's child, and using them to slack off. However, that is for the parent to determine, and there are many different approaches to education among good parents.

 

My biggest beef with that other thread was its faulty premise: "Frustrated with HS community enabling itself to lower standards..." The HS community doesn't enable me to do anything, including teaching my kids in a certain way. The whole point of homeschooling is that I choose how I educate my kids, not the schools, not the gov't, not another parent or group of parents. That doesn't mean I think all homeschooling parents are doing right by their kids, just that it's none of my business.

 

Personally, I have one kid who is substantially behind the state standards. Panicking and insisting that he/she catch up, adding hours to our school schedule, etc. won't help this child. Being patient and finding strategies that are effective in teaching him/her will.

 

I understand the concern that some negligent parents are going to give HSing a bad name and ruin my kids' chances of getting into their preferred college...buy I would respond by saying that I need to find ways of making sure my child is a good candidate. I'm not sure there has ever been a time where I could have put "homeschool" on a college app and immediately have the entire Ivy League clamoring for the privilege of educating my child. Part of my job as a HS mom is teaching my kids how to showcase their academic achievements and other strengths in a way that will enable to them to reach their goals.

[Night Elf]

I've been homeschooling for 10 years. In the beginning, I did worry about standards. I tried following various ideas. I used the Core Knowledge series for a while. I also tried planning around the Home Learning Year by Year book. I finally learned to relax and trust myself to pick the best of all the research I had done and run with that. I was also guilty of being a curriculum hopper because of the grass is greener syndrome.

 

My homeschool style changed several times during those 10 years. I was everyone on the spectrum, very structured to radical unschooling. Even when were highly structured, we rarely finished a program. I know others judged me and were certain my children would suffer because of some decision they disagreed with personally. But in the end, my children are doing great. We are in the final phase of homeschooling, the high school years. Except for the lack of self-confidence in writing, my children began high school totally prepared and they are doing excellent work as well, including writing. We may have travelled a different path than others to get here, but we did get here. Oh, and "here" may be different as well. I know some people don't think using an accredited high school correspondence program is good because it mimics regular high school which could be considered inferior academics. So then, I'll have to endure their judging on that too. But we're happy with our choice. :)

[Catherine]

I know at least one "unschool" kid who is exactly in that situation. His parents just don't buy into the idea that education can be forced, and being forced in school ruined their childhood-to paraphrase loosely. They have done minimal formal education EVER.

[Night Elf]

I know at least one "unschool" kid who is exactly in that situation. His parents just don't buy into the idea that education can be forced, and being forced in school ruined their childhood-to paraphrase loosely. They have done minimal formal education EVER.

 

I know some unschoolers who are extremely bright and doing quite well for themselves. I hope this thread doesn't turn into a bash-fest for unschooling, especially when there are so many misconceptions about the philosophy.

[FO4UR]

My measuring stick is formed out of a combination of my long-term goals (When they graduate high school, they will be able to .....), short-term goals (In the next 6mo, they will be able to...), and their own uniquely human qualities.

 

From that other thread, I got the idea that there are some people who use progress in a curric as a standard. I think that works with some things, but not with everything. I've got a ds with an LD, and there is a lot of stopping, backing up, trying again, working sideways, etc...the WORST thing I could do to him (academically) would be to forge ahead in the name of "progress" instead of building the strong foundation first. I've got a bright (but strong-willed!!!) 6yo. The worst thing I could do to her would be tie her down to the expectations of plowing through a curric at this age. She FAR surpasses what I would plan, given the freedom. The standards I set for her are largely character related...she is internally driven when it comes to learning to read and write and math.

 

I fail my own standards over and over again...I set them high though, and expect to fail at least a few things. I evaluate, regroup, and dive back in.

[Greta]

The OP of that thread was distinguishing between parents who work with their kids to improve, and parents that do not, yet want reassurance that it's OK to not do anything.

 

Exactly. I understand that other parents have entirely different notions of what academic standards should be, and that some parents homeschool for reasons other than academics and don't hold the same ideals in that regard at all. I get that. And that's not my place to judge at all.

 

But I think what the OP of that thread was addressing was that when someone *asks* if it's okay to slack off, to lower their standards, to not take it seriously, it is rather surprising (at least for those of us striving toward what we feel are high standards) to see just how much coddling and reassurance ensues.

 

I remember once, someone was asking if it was okay to use SOTW 1 with all her kids, first grade through ninth. At the point when I read the thread (though this may have changed, I didn't go back to it) everyone was saying that was fine. I was wondering if I was the only one who felt that the very idea of using an elementary text for a high school student was completely and utterly absurd. Yes, SOTW is a great resource. But a high school level history course it is not. Period. No one, in my opinion, did that woman, or especially her high school student, any favors by reassuring her that it was okay. Those are the kinds of threads that leave me, and I believe the OP of that thread, feeling very . . . :huh: :confused: :banghead:

[chiguirre]

I'm already walking a tight rope over shark infested waters so I try to not stress about if I'm meeting some unknown standard.

 

 

Exactly!

 

I do have a vision of what I'd like to accomplish with ds2, but I really don't know if we'll get there or not. I'd like him to be able to understand arithmetic well enough to handle his personal finances. I'd like him to be able to read well enough to use the internet and read magazines that interest him. I'd like him to write well enough physically to fill out forms and have the composition skills to express himself in writing well enough to use email, facebook, and messaging (and write a letter if he needs to and they still exist). We're well on our way to having him internalize the timeline of history, working on knowing where countries are and a bit about them, knowing enough about science topics to be able to access general interest adult science shows, appreciate the arts and participate when he's able, participate in sports and develop his skills, learn to communicate at least a bit in Spanish and, most important, be a kind, considerate person.

 

I can't spend the mental energy to worry about what other people think. If someone had the audacity to suggest to my face that we don't work hard enough, they probably would wish they hadn't pretty quickly.

 

For dd, my goals are the same as for ds2, plus encouraging her to follow her interests. I don't really have to worry about her ever being behind academically, it's usually more about keeping up with her abilities without pushing too far and having her feel overwhelmed. I mainly hs her so that she isn't bored and doesn't just coast through her childhood getting good grades with no effort. That didn't serve me well and I'd rather not have that happen to her.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

For me it's when my expressed goals aren't going to be met with the choices I'm making. For example, if my goal is to be able to translate Latin or do calculus by high school, but I never get around to language study or math work, then there is an obvious disconnect. I hope that my close friends might find a way to gently point that out (hey, stop poking me, I said gently).

 

Does every homeschooler get my critique? No. No more than every parent of a child making foolish choices. But if I have a friend to is bemoaning her child's fitness levels or weight, I might ask if she's considered a connection between tv time and outdoor time or between food choices available in the house and weight gain. Similarly, if a friend asks me what I think about something I am not going to pat them on the head and tell them it will all work out in the end, while inside I'm thinking they are delusional.

 

If a parent's expectation is that their kid will go to a select college, but their academic experience will make a state uni or CC a challenge, then I might point it out. If a parent isn't planning on their kids going to college, then I'm not going to tell them their kid is deficient for not mastering trig.

 

I don't have a lot of hard and fast milestones. I guess I know it when I see it. I do think if a kid is leaving 3rd grade and not reading at all, it's worth asking why. If a kid is heading into middle school and cannot fathom basic arithmetic, I would wonder if they are being set up for failure. Not that it isn't recoverable. This year my 3rd grader moved from struggling with Frog and Toad books to reading Redwall chapters. And I understand there are LDs that give individual children individual academic paces and goals. I see a wide variation just among my three kids.

 

But a parent who sees no issue whatsoever with their child's lack of progress would make me raise my eyebrows.

[Nan in Mass]

When it comes to basic academic skills for my own children, I judge based on what I needed to be able to do in college (which I remember fairly well). I work over the course of years to bring them to that point. If I want to know how to get there, I look at TWTM. When it comes to their education, I judge based on a set of educational goals my husband and I made. Basically, I am comparing them to an adult. That causes numerous difficulties, but I think over all it solves more than it causes. If I want to do a grade level check, just to keep myself from worrying too much (or to motivate myself if I feel we've been lazy), I look at my state's standardized test. The past tests are posted (or at least they were last time I checked). Or I look at my children's cousins and despair. We have a good public school and they are at the top of it. One look at their notebooks is enough to send me into panic for a month. Sigh.

-Nan

[Plucky]

I know PS kids who are many, many grade levels behind what is considered "grade level" by me, but it's hard to judge based on both slippery standards of the school, and the fact that many PS parents tend to judge how their kid is doing based on grades, and my judgement tends to be based on understanding and writing ability.

 

I have judged other homeschoolers in the past at times based on tiny snapshots and I know now how inaccurate that is. For instance, people's education\intellect is sometimes judged to be low based on poor spelling, and I think most of us realize that there's widely varying natural spelling ability, and that even the very best spelling program, implemented with plenty of review, cannot transform a terrible speller into anything but a barely OK speller (ask me how I know-LOL!) So the whole act of assessing a kid's level is not that easy or straightforward and may not take account of their quirks.

 

So yes, I've judged kids both homeschooled and not, but I'm trying to avoid that now that I'm enlightened : )

 

I agree! There was a 16-year old kid that wore a cape everywhere and was socially awkward. He scared the daylights out of me when I first considered homeschooling, and his parents didn't appear to be the rigorous type, but they were both very smart. He ended up getting a perfect SAT score, full scholarship, studied in China, and is a brilliant man, happy dad and husband.

 

I'm sure if I told people what we are doing this summer they would say I overwork my kids. I don't care, just like I don't care what they are doing with their kids. I'm busy doing my own thing here with my own kids. Does anyone really have more time to worry about other families?

[Plucky]

Does anyone think there is a correlation with newish homeschoolers that get upset about others' homeschools tending to eventually quit homeschooling?

[Plucky]

Well there have been a few with very elaborate websites and planning that have come and gone. It didn't really surprise me.

[happyhomemaker25]

When it comes to basic academic skills for my own children, I judge based on what I needed to be able to do in college (which I remember fairly well). I work over the course of years to bring them to that point. If I want to know how to get there, I look at TWTM. When it comes to their education, I judge based on a set of educational goals my husband and I made. Basically, I am comparing them to an adult. That causes numerous difficulties, but I think over all it solves more than it causes. If I want to do a grade level check, just to keep myself from worrying too much (or to motivate myself if I feel we've been lazy), I look at my state's standardized test. The past tests are posted (or at least they were last time I checked). Or I look at my children's cousins and despair. We have a good public school and they are at the top of it. One look at their notebooks is enough to send me into panic for a month. Sigh.

-Nan

 

Oh, my educational standards all come from the thread Nan in Mass started about getting the basics done. :)

[-M-]

Exactly what standards are being used as the measuring stick in the first place? If the point of that thread was to force us to see if we are or are not measuring up, where is the set of standards we can use?

 

Great questions. I think the answer to the first is personal to the OP (i.e., her general sense of what progress represents.) The answer to the second? Well, homeschooled students are bound by the standards of state law, right? Illinois law, for example, mentions providing an education in English comparable to that of same-aged peers in public school and notes the number of days required. In my situation, then, the minimum standard is that my students receive 180 days of education in the same subjects as their eighth- and tenth-grade peers.

 

But there's the rub. Which eighth- and tenth-grade peers? The ones in the various gifted programs? The ones on the honors path? The traditional college-prep path? The students in the basic skills classes? The "average" student in those grades? What is "average," then? Now may I point out that there is a difference between the education their peers in our town are receiving and that their peers in some nearby towns are receiving. Which standard shall I use then? The seemingly more rigorous? The other? Oh, and I put my eighth-grader in ninth this month. What's the standard for her? Should she be held to the standards of her peers in middle school or those in high school?

 

As I mentioned in my response to the resurrected thread, the consistency, rigor, and quality of education being provided to the children of the posters on this board varies -- sometimes greatly -- from poster to poster, not to mention across the ever-expanding ranks of homeschoolers in this country. The exact same thing can be said of the consistency, rigor, and quality of education being provided to the children in public and private schools around the country. In other words, there is no single standard. And after fourteen years of this gig and one graduated student, I can say with some confidence, I don't want a standard (beyond the open-to-interpretation law on the books in this state) imposed on my family-centered learning project.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Mental multivitamin
Clarity

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Does anyone think there is a correlation with newish homeschoolers that get upset about others' homeschools tending to eventually quit homeschooling?

 

I've noticed it. I was thinking it has more to do with the rigidity of thought than the criticism of others, though. If you get it in your head that there is One Right Way, you'll find yourself up against that wall eventually. Life is messy. This is homeschooling and relationships are involved! Nothing ever goes exactly according to plan. Whether we persist or not depends upon our ability to roll with the hard times.

 

We've had threads before about "Are you living up to your own ideals," and the old-timers all agree that we are not and cannot. We then say that we are running good homeschools and our children are doing well...and we've learned to call that success.

[Plucky]

I've noticed it. I was thinking it has more to do with the rigidity of thought than the criticism of others, though. If you get it in your head that there is One Right Way, you'll find yourself up against that wall eventually. Life is messy. This is homeschooling and relationships are involved! Nothing ever goes exactly according to plan. Whether we persist or not depends upon our ability to roll with the hard times.

 

We've had threads before about "Are you living up to your own ideals," and the old-timers all agree that we are not and cannot. We then say that we are running good homeschools and our children are doing well...and we've learned to call that success.

 

Good point! I think you are right. :)

[Plucky]

Yeah I notice some people like to spend a lot of time on that stuff. I find I don't have the time for it. ;)

 

Exactly.

[DianeW88]

I think the frustration is with parents who claim they're homeschooling, but are not doing any such thing.

 

Unfortunately, I know a family in our community who says they're homeschooling, but the mother is only keeping the older ones home to babysit the younger ones. She works full time at her own business and she sends the kids to a "tutor" 2 days per week for schoolwork. Having said that...the oldest cannot read at 15. She does 3rd grade math...at best. She has absolutely NO knowledge of science or history on any level. The mother will not insist the children do ANY homework or assignments that have been given, and the tutor is at her wits end with these kids. The oldest girl is very bright and capable, but is virtually illiterate and completely uneducated.

 

Her mother tells her "it won't matter, because you know how to raise kids and run a household and not many other kids your age can do that." :blink:

 

I believe this is the type of "homeschooler" that is casting a bad light on all of us, and they are becoming more and more prevalent as parents who simply don't want to be bothered with their children hide behind the "homeschooling" label. Drives me bonkers.

[Meriwether]

In response to the resurrected thread on homeschoolers lowering their standards, I wanted to start a new discussion. Exactly what standards are being used as the measuring stick in the first place? If the point of that thread was to force us to see if we are or are not measuring up, where is the set of standards we can use?

 

Or are we talking in generalities, like children should be doing at least 4th grade math if they are in 4th grade? But even then, how do we take into account that not all 4th grade math programs are exactly alike?

 

Or, let's take writing, which is something I see discussed quite often. Where can I learn exactly what is expected in each grade level? Is there a specific point that worries people? If a 6th grader only writes 4 essays in his course and that isn't enough, how about 5? 6? 8?

 

Now, I know that most of us on this board are at least familiar with The Well-Trained Mind. SWB gives us great information, but does that mean her ideas are the standard in general? It could be for most of us because her ideas resonate with us and we aim to follow her advice. But does that mean that when we see someone else homeschooling without following WTM that they are not measuring up to the "standard"?

 

I know, I'm rambling. Since yesterday, I've been thinking about that post and also about how judgmental some people can be. I'm just trying to figure out how a person develops that judgment, because it must be based on something particular.

 

Does any of this make sense? I need another cup of coffee. :tongue_smilie:

 

I spent some time recently with an old friend. A common friend of ours has been going through a lot over the past several years. She is going to school full time and working. The kids still at home haven't been doing hardly any school for the past two years. Some of them are high school age. The fact is, they are behind. They would probably be better off in school. I'm sure the mom is hoping life will get under control again and she can get them caught up. If I still lived there, I would offer to teach her kids while she worked. Not because I think I'd do a better job with her kids than she could. If she wanted a certain schedule or currriculum that would be fine. I'd just like to help her out.

[SweetBean]

The OP of that thread was distinguishing between parents who work with their kids to improve, and parents that do not, yet want reassurance that it's OK to not do anything.

Yes.

 

I do try to head for the sweet spot, giving the kids just enough challenge to keep them interested without frustrating them. We try to keep moving along, doing a little bit of each subject each day, but everyone has hard times. We have had two new babies in the past 2.5 years, and we moved to a different state 6 years ago. Those sorts of events definitely slow you down.

[Dawn in OH]

For my family, I set my own standards. I expect to see an effort being made, as well as progress. We cannot compare ourselves to other homeschoolers or even the public school.

 

I've met people that expect children to be reading at age 5. Even I expected that when we first started out. Now I know that not all kids are ready to read at age 5. No amount of forcing the issue will make it happen.

 

We work till mastery in math. If that puts us "behind" where other children their ages are, so be it. At least my children will understand the math.

 

I'm very determined to make sure my children can write well, including having good spelling and a good understanding of grammar. I don't know how they are doing compared to other children of their age, but in the end, they will know more than their publicly schooled peers. I don't think it matters right now if they are "ahead" or "behind", because, like the reading, you can't force it. When they get it, they get it. It could be next month, next year, or two years from now. I'm teaching them the skills they need, but I cannot force them to perform to some invisible standard.

 

We do actively homeschool. It's generally 5 days a week. I cover all the required subjects and sometimes more. Sure, some days we only do school work for 2 hours a day, because we have other things to do that day. But in our house, we take our homeschooling seriously. I don't keep the kids home with me to help with the little ones or the chores (although they do that some).

 

I never lower my standards, but I might edit my time-line.

[Rosy]

Does anyone think there is a correlation with newish homeschoolers that get upset about others' homeschools tending to eventually quit homeschooling?

I've had that thought myself.

 

I've noticed it. I was thinking it has more to do with the rigidity of thought than the criticism of others, though. If you get it in your head that there is One Right Way, you'll find yourself up against that wall eventually. Life is messy. This is homeschooling and relationships are involved! Nothing ever goes exactly according to plan. Whether we persist or not depends upon our ability to roll with the hard times.

 

We've had threads before about "Are you living up to your own ideals," and the old-timers all agree that we are not and cannot. We then say that we are running good homeschools and our children are doing well...and we've learned to call that success.

Totally. When you're that rigid in your approach, you're setting yourself up for failure. It is important to assess whether we're meeting our goals, but it is also important to have realistic expectations and learn to tweak them when necessary.

[SailorMom]

I have a very broad definition for "homeschooling", and try very hard not to judge - but I do know families that are falling short in what I consider important.

Of course, again, this is what I consider important and they have every right to disagree with me.

My standards are very high for my own children - even my LD son who has many challenges.

I think it boils down to keeping them moving forward, challenging them, and helping them reach the top limits of their own potential - whatever that may be.

[stripe]

My problem is the idea that all public schools are awful and this idea that everyone graduates high school totally ignorant, so if your kid can read CVC words at age 12 and can find the US on a map, you're running some amazing academy. There seems also to be some notion that you've either got your nose to the grind with textbooks and Latin declensions OR your children are comfortable in the 'real world' so know how to climb a tree and wave silk scarves around in an imterpretive dance.

[Plucky]

There seems also to be some notion that you've either got your nose to the grind with textbooks and Latin declensions OR your children are comfortable in the 'real world' so know how to climb a tree and wave silk scarves around in an interpretive dance.

 

Love it! :lol::lol::lol:

[Cindyz]

 

I rather look at overall educational goals: what skills and knowledge base do I wish for my kid do develop by the time they graduate from high school? Where do we need to be each year in order to make that happen? What work ethic, study skills, dealing with challenges do I want them to develop?

 

 

 

 

I was going to type something exactly like this. I think about where I want my child to be when he graduates and then I pace from there.

[Jenny in GA]

I read that entire other thread. One thing that struck me is that people seemed to be coming away with something different that what the OP was saying.

 

I didn't get the impression that she was talking about judging, regulation, nosing around about whether people have the same standards as yourself.

 

She seemed to be saying that in the HS community, there was too much encouragement and coddling of having low standards. That homeschoolers are always telling each other "it's okay" and "whatever you're doing is fine."

[YLVD]

In response to the resurrected thread on homeschoolers lowering their standards, I wanted to start a new discussion. Exactly what standards are being used as the measuring stick in the first place? If the point of that thread was to force us to see if we are or are not measuring up, where is the set of standards we can use?

 

Or are we talking in generalities, like children should be doing at least 4th grade math if they are in 4th grade? But even then, how do we take into account that not all 4th grade math programs are exactly alike?

 

Or, let's take writing, which is something I see discussed quite often. Where can I learn exactly what is expected in each grade level? Is there a specific point that worries people? If a 6th grader only writes 4 essays in his course and that isn't enough, how about 5? 6? 8?

 

Now, I know that most of us on this board are at least familiar with The Well-Trained Mind. SWB gives us great information, but does that mean her ideas are the standard in general? It could be for most of us because her ideas resonate with us and we aim to follow her advice. But does that mean that when we see someone else homeschooling without following WTM that they are not measuring up to the "standard"?

 

I know, I'm rambling. Since yesterday, I've been thinking about that post and also about how judgmental some people can be. I'm just trying to figure out how a person develops that judgment, because it must be based on something particular.

 

Does any of this make sense? I need another cup of coffee. :tongue_smilie:

 

This is good food for thought. I know that for me, I have had to make adjustments to the typical classical education based on the needs of my daughter. She has a learning disability. It was a bit of a learning curve as I was skipped ahead grades at school and found school in general very easy.

 

I follow loose guidelines and make changes as I need to. I see her learning and know that she is absorbing much more than I even realize sometimes.

[elegantlion]

I have to watch my own goals. I don't have time or energy to critique others goals. Now I do hope they have some, and some idea of how to reach them.

 

We had a horrible school year, thankfully it's over. It was chaos, no momentum. We didn't reach all of our goals, but I discovered some new things about ds. Very specific things about the way he learns and thinks. I'm educating HIM, not to a standard.

 

To the outside it might have looked like we were slacking this year. Dh and I even talked about it. Most of it was purposeful, some of it was happenstance.

 

As far as standards? IDK? I see some parents who are educating their children in a decent fashion but not preparing them for anything beyond homeschooling. Not college, not life, not career. I work to not judge because I don't know their background, their plan for educating, their hopes and dreams for their kids.

 

I also have a kid who is not a huge fan of academics at this point. I walk a fine line between pushing and waiting for him to catch up. His personality is such that if I push too hard, he'll pull in the opposite direction. I likened it to digging a trench with a spoon. I want him to see the long term value in being a life long learner, not try to cram it all in by eighteen. So some days it looks like we may be slacking.

 

We just finished our 7th year of homeschooling, 7th grade. Even at our slower pace we are doing things public school kids don't. I realized a couple of months ago that he is getting a better education than public school. Better by what standards? By mine. Because it's custom designed. It may look different and slower if you compared it grade to grade. Because of consistent moving forward, even at a snail's pace sometimes, we've made progress every year.

 

I look now at what our real goal is for his education. I'd like it if at 44 (my age) he was still excited about learning new stuff. I hated school, dh hated school. It took us both years until we were ready to start learning again. I refuse to do that to my son, so it requires constant vigilance to his needs.

 

Our state requires 1000 hours of instruction in a 12 month period. 600 in core subjects, 400 in non-core. I don't consider that anything but an arbitrary number created by the state.

 

I don't even know if that addresses your question correctly. I read the thread originally, but didn't bother to read again. I know one thing would irritate me, trying to use a co-op for serious academic use when the class doesn't take it seriously (goofing off in class, blowing off assignments). Right now we don't have money for those, so it's not even a concern. If people want a co-op for light academics and a social outlet, fine, that's just not how I'd like to utilize them.

 

IDK, I think homeschooling is a lot like parenting. No one really know the nuances of it unless they are around it everyday.

 

Enough rambling...:001_huh:

[usetoschool]

Well there have been a few with very elaborate websites and planning that have come and gone. It didn't really surprise me.

 

Kind of a flash in the pan? I think that people who are successful at educating their children figure out pretty quickly that it is day after day of serious work.

 

 

 

 

Hmmm...gee, that sounds fun. Hope no one contemplating homeschooling their kids takes that the wrong way. :001_smile:

[Deb in NZ]

For those who set your standards by PS grade levels, do you aim for what the highest, average, or minimum of that grade level? I see & hear a lot of HSers saying that their dc is working far ahead of his/her PS peers. If a HSer isn't working far ahead of PS grade level, do you see that HSer as slacking?

 

Why I'm asking is that I've done a lot of soul searching this year since my 3 dc have moved onto other educational opportunities. Dd didn't come close to reaching some of the academic levels I covered in highschool, but she surpassed me in other areas by miles. She is now half-way through her Marine Biology degree & doing well (not top of the class in grades, but definitely more than just passing.)

 

Ds#1 struggles academically & always has, even when he was in PS. HSing didn't make him excell academically, but it did allow us to work with his strengths to help him gain the skills/knowledge he needs to be successful in life. We have been blessed to have been able to give him educational opportunities in his areas of strength that will gain him the qualifications to earn a good living. Doors to uni aren't closed to him, but he will need to take an alternate route if he chooses to earn a degree.

 

Ds#2 is in PS this year for the first time since kindy. He placed in the lower mid-range class based on his entrance exam. Does this mean I failed to set high enough standards for him in our HS? There are areas that in hind-sight I could have done better, but we were focused & organised in our HSing approach.

 

Is there something to be ashamed of if your dc is "average" academically? I was always in the top classes in PS, but dh was always in the bottom classes. Being in the bottom classes did not prevent dh from learning a trade that has allowed him to work overseas for 26 years & support our family on his one wage. We own our home & are almost debt-free, even with him being unemployed for the past 9 months. I have a degree, but have been less successful in finding work, even part-time work, than dh has.

 

Is academics the only area that counts when considering success? I was always the last one picked for teams in PE, while all 3 of my dc take after dh & excell athletically. My boys have been on provincial rep. teams since they were 10/11 years old. We didn't ignore "school", but we have allowed our dc time to develop their passions.

 

JMHO,

Edited June 9, 2011 by Deb in NZ

[Wildiris]

There is no uniform set of standards for private school, public school or home school. Each state determines its own public school standard, and private schools and independent home schoolers are free to set their own standards. Perhaps a better question might be what is meant by standard. One could follow the education outline of What Every ____ Grader Should Know, The Well Trained Mind, or pursue a Waldorf Education model or a state standard (you pick the state) as a standard to meet. There are many possibilities when it comes to the idea of standard.

 

If I remember correctly, the OP talked about homeschoolers agreeing with one another that it was OK to skip days, to fall behind in school work, and to be lax about educating their children. This is a bit different than meeting "standards." Without accountability to an outside entity, I find it too easy to let life interrupt and let school slide. I am just not as disciplined as I'd like to be. For this reason, I choose to homeschool through a charter. That monthly meeting keeps me from becoming lax and declaring too many rainbow days.

 

Like it or not, I think all homeschoolers will be measured against their public school peers. There seems to be a real distrust of homeschooling, particularly when it comes to educating the upper grades (6-12). I hear many people quizzing my daughter once they find out she is homeschooled. I feel like she is being held to a different standard. If she doesn't know the answer to their question, they lock me in a cold glare, holding me responsible for her short coming. I doubt this occurs with public school kids. My sons, who went to public high school, were only asked where they went to school as if that were enough to pass judgement their education. The response was typically, "Oh yeah, I know that school. That's a good school." I do not think all public schools deserve the disrespect heaped upon them. As with all things, there are good and not so good public schools. I just happen to live in a poor school district that suffers from a bad case of nepotism. I wish it were different.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I started reading that other thread and it really set my teeth on edge. The idea that I should base what I do on a set of standards put together by someone who doesn't know my dc, doesn't know their peculiarities, their learning styles, their interests, their gifts or disabilities, doesn't know what occurs in our life, doesn't know me...that's why mine aren't in ps and why I don't do yearly testing. One of my dc far exceeds typical standards of the ps system, one of them falls a good way below them. If I base their knowledge and progression on some standard or some benchmark then one is a genius and one is an idiot. However, if I base what they are doing right now on what I know they are capable of and on where they were in skills and knowledge 6 months or a year ago then they are both doing really well and I am perfectly happy and confident that by the time I graduate them they will be more than prepared and qualified to enter into a college or university. The only reason I even assign grade level is because it is required by my cover school.

 

I wonder if the people who agreed with the OP of the other thread mentioned have students who fall within the average to above average rank. Possibly, they have students who are easy to teach and self motivated too. It seems that it might be easy to think that staying at or above a certain standard should be easily attainable under those circumstances. However, I think the main point should be that just because some like to make sure they are meeting certain standards and benchmarks doesn't mean that we all have those same goals or that their way is the best way to do things. I don't think I take my dc's education any less seriously because I don't believe in a certain set of standards or benchmarks than someone who tests regularly and makes sure that their dc could walk into a ps tomorrow and be able to pick up right where all the other dc are. I'd be curious to see also, in 5 years, when my oldest graduates, how she would stack up against someone who took less breaks, stayed on grade level, meet ps standards each year, and never had a life circumstance that caused school to get put on the back burner for a while. I have a feeling that just looking at their knowledge base and skills, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

Standards and benchmarks were created so that the ps system could peg, categorize and filter children into their appropriate slots. They were created so that teachers know the specific goal to meet by the end of each year. Have you ever looked at ps benchmarks? Basically its like a big checklist. Cross the T's and dot the I's. If the teacher put a checkmark next to all the benchmarks she was supposed to teach for that year and if the students reach a certain level according to the standard then they get to move onto the next grade whether they mastered the material or not. And before I get flamed, I'm not saying its the teacher's fault...I know that their hands are tied and they are doing the best they can within the system. Uugh...I really should delete all of that but I won't because it is relevant to why I don't believe in standards and benchmarks.

 

I also don't get or see the idea that homeschoolers as a whole are letting educational standards slip. Based on this forum, others I've visited and homeschoolers I know IRL, that is just not the case. I'm not saying that their aren't those out there who are becoming or have always been lax but I would say that they are in the minority. What I do believe is true is that there are as many different ideas about what high educational standards are as there are homeschooling families.

[Ester Maria]

I do not function well with too much "relativism" in the air.

 

The minimum of the minimum is measured by the system they officially belong to and within which they get tested annually in all subjects (even if it were not a requirement, I find that I would need it for my mental peace), while their English level (in terms of language arts, literacy and literature) needs to be comparable to that of a solid American prep school (while I have outsourced this area and allowed much input from all sides, I did request it satisfy the criteria of good private schools). I am taking into account their abilities, too - it is not that I arbitrarily set up for lycee standards rather than other types of school standards, or for a higher level English option rather than ESL-ish standards.

 

I would immediately send my children to the institution if they failed to test well (barring a hypothetical case of exceptional circumstances that led to that, the kind of one time life happening big you cannot control, and that we got out of so we can proceed as planned next year); I am not talking about any kind of stupid standardized tests, but about actual subjects tests that are first written and then backed up with an oral examination, in front of a commission.

I also subject my children to examinations of the kind by people whom I know and who are experts in the fields my children study and I am VERY interested in what they have to say - positive as well as negative. And nope, it is not exclusively positive even with bright / advanced kids, I got a few unexpected slaps in the face along the way too when I though they were doing so wonderfully while somebody else actually found them "a bit below what I would consider reasonable and expectable, all things considered, age and ability level". Critique, especially one backed up with expertise and pedagogical experience, is definitely not something I am willing to write off, relying exlusively on my motherly instincts. I find that other people's insights and the fact that I allowed my children to be quizzed that way has helped me immensely over the years, pointed out to some structure / approach / intensity problems, to some of my biases, or simply to a need of a shift of perspective.

 

Of course, other people are fully free to decide they are not interested in listening to anyone / anything other than the best of their parental intentions and their instincts, as well as fully free to go with the extreme individualism of "nobody who does not really know my DC cannot have an educated opinion of their education [no pun intended]".

If asked, I will point that I disagree with that attitude.

If not asked, I will keep shut and mind my own business.

 

These boards are not representative, in my experience, of the homeschool world as such - on the contrary, they seem to have collected much of the homeschool top, there is a particular type of people that seems to be gravitating towards these boards, i.e. people who really shoot high and whose children usually get the kind of education that is regularly on par or above the societal expectations and the standards of the places where they live; in fact, it would be easy to conclude that homeschoolers are extremely dedicated, well-educated and accomplished folks by reading these boards. When this type of topics pops up, we need to remember that sometimes people's experiences also stem from knowing those other types of homeschoolers, and some of those are, well, non-schoolers.

No need to automatically get worked up and defensive every time the issues of standards are brought up, words such as "rigor" are used or even when somebody questions the legitimacy of using a right to homeschool to simply "do your own thing" no matter how you define it, or even - the utmost horror - when somebody says that maybe, just maybe, there should be some common ground, no matter how vague, to look up to for children of similar age and ability level from a background with similar cultural expectations ;), discussions of these issues are generally healthy and have an entertain-the-idea potential for everyone, unless they denegerate into personal fights, of course. This is a general statement, not aimed at anyone in particular (I skimmed the replies only anyway), but something I have noticed quite a few times over here. It is usually followed by that dear false dichotomy of an "educated" vs. "whole" child in many of its forms, as if people who take education seriously somehow less valued the "wholeness" of their children LOL.

 

And yes, I also realize that not everyone homeschools primarily for academic reasons. I still believe they have, if not legal, then a moral obligation to take into consideration that "common ground" I vaguely described above (societal expectations in terms of age and ability, typical educational path comparable to the cognitive / academic profile of their children, etc.) and try not to be out of sync with the lowest common denominators in terms of subject inclusion and coverage, no matter how vague, there. Which consequently WILL, for most average children, include pretty much being at least on par with the dreaded PS standards in the major areas - I see nothing wrong with it. Nor with admitting that, heck it, you failed at something, made a few poor choices (regarding too much freedom in schedule, allowing too much "life happening" interfere with studies, switching too many curricula and approaches for it to work well, etc. - I am speaking exclusively of typical average or brighter kids here, not LDs or special needs) and now you need to work up to that level, go into intense mode with that subject, etc. Happens. It is important not to let it handicap you on the long run (school / uni admissions, or admissions but then failure with regards to typical expectations, the lack of a sort of minimal general established "canon" of high school knowledge by gradutation, etc.).

 

Only my $.02, of course.

[WishboneDawn]

I've noticed it. I was thinking it has more to do with the rigidity of thought than the criticism of others, though. If you get it in your head that there is One Right Way, you'll find yourself up against that wall eventually. Life is messy. This is homeschooling and relationships are involved! Nothing ever goes exactly according to plan. Whether we persist or not depends upon our ability to roll with the hard times.

 

We've had threads before about "Are you living up to your own ideals," and the old-timers all agree that we are not and cannot. We then say that we are running good homeschools and our children are doing well...and we've learned to call that success.

 

This reminds me of when I started. I was a radical unschooler and radical unschooling was the only reasonable and kin way to raise a child. Now I'm 8 years in, officially one of the old timers I think, and we're schooling 3 to 5 hours a day and I see great things in all the different approaches, even *gasp* school.

[cathmom]

I personally want to keep my kids at least in line with the public schools so that if they ever had to go to ps they wouldn't be lost. I heard of a kid locally whose mom did a great job with world history but the child, at 4th grade, had not had any US history and she was lost.

 

Just wanted to point out that she was ahead of her peers WRT world history! :D

[Night Elf]

We then say that we are running good homeschools and our children are doing well...and we've learned to call that success.

 

:cheers2: Hear, hear!

[Plucky]

Just wanted to point out that she was ahead of her peers WRT world history! :D

 

:iagree: Plus, it is really easy to catch a kid up in U.S. History.

[cathmom]

:iagree: Plus, it is really easy to catch a kid up in U.S. History.

 

No kidding...read a couple of books and you're there.