s/o Harold Camping: persecution

[nmoira]

The Camping thread is not the first time I've been baffled here by the idea of someone who is American and Christian bringing up persecution. How does that play out on a personal, political, our societal level? I just don't get it. The US as I see it is overwhelmingly Christian. No president has ever been (and will not soon be) a non-Christian. No one is protesting the building of new churches. Please help me out here.

 

I'd prefer if this weren't turned into a debate thread, but hoping is the limit of my special powers. :001_smile:

[WishboneDawn]

I can't help you.

 

I'm Christian myself and don't get it. In general, we're the entitled ones. We're also the ones who are supposed to turn the other cheek.

 

I'm fairly willing to take some hits about my faith (I'm a big girl, I can take it) when they're coming from a minority perspective that maybe doesn't get the airtime it should. I think a preferable route would be to simply start up a discussion around the issue rather then turn the focus on me and how upset something made me.

 

 

There are much more important things in the world to be offended and outraged by in the world then someone offering an opinion. Even if it does hurt a bit at times.

[mommymilkies]

:iagree:

[Trish]

Didn't read the Camping thread, so I don't know about the persecution angle. (that he's being mocked for being wrong? No surprise there.)

 

I don't see the U.S. as overwhelmingly Christian, any longer. I would think the majority of people who identify themselves as Christian do so because they have been raised in a particular faith, or were married in one. I think those who would be considered churchgoers and/or believers would be in the minority.

[OnTheBrink]

There is very little, if any, true persecution in this country. People ridiculing Christianity on a message board, while rude, is in no way persecution. If you have the option of walking away from the ridiculing comments, you're not being persecuted.

[elegantlion]

I look out my living room window and see three different churches. I can go another two blocks and find a few more. There are all DIFFERENT christian denominations. I'm a christian, but don't attend any of these churches. My town has less than 15,000 people and that's not even all of our churches.

 

I can stick a Jesus fish on my car, wear my Jesus t-shirt in public, and say "God bless you" to random people.

 

I can put scripture on my signature line, I can ask for prayer on a message board or on facebook.

 

I am a American Christian and see no persecution of the christian church in this country.

 

I'm sure there are places around the world where I wouldn't feel so open about my faith.

 

Like "American poverty" doesn't necessarily relate to the abject poverty around the world, I think persecution in America is overstated.

 

Whatever faith people hold or don't hold does not sway my faith. I am not bothered by people who openly state their convictions. I respect them as my friends because we have other commonalities.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I'm a Christian and grew up in more conservative circles than those I now frequent.

 

In conservative churches the children are often given a very strong impression that strong verbal dissent or mild mockery is persecution.

 

My own theory on that is as follows: People aren't well-educated about the past or well-acquainted with current events. They don't know about Christians currently being slaughtered or driven from their homes. They don't know about other faith groups receiving persecution at the hands of people claiming to be Christians. Their understanding of the world is very narrow.

 

So they get the idea in their heads that rudeness is the main form of persecution that Western children will encounter, and Jesus said that all His followers would suffer, so they put two and two together and say that rudeness equals persecution.

 

(When Jesus said that, He was talking to people who would indeed actually die for following Him.)

 

I could be way off base, but that's how it all felt to me even as a child.

 

I don't call disagreement persecution. You might mock my faith or argue with me, and I might feel angered, disrespected, or annoyed, but you'd have to do lots more than that for me to feel persecuted.

 

I wouldn't feel properly persecuted unless a variation on one of these events happened to me directly because of my stated faith:

 

1. Bodily harm to myself, my family or friends

2. Loss of employment or dwelling

[bbmom]

There is very little, if any, true persecution in this country. People ridiculing Christianity on a message board, while rude, is in no way persecution. If you have the option of walking away from the ridiculing comments, you're not being persecuted.

 

:hurray:

[Ester Maria]

For "rhetoric" purposes, some people will often try to "pass" ridicule or disapproval for perspecution. But they are just not the same - ridicule and disapproval are the costs of living in a society with the freedom of expression, which is therefore the freedom of opinion, and of negative opinion too, which may also be perpetuated into humor, etc., and as with any other things in life, some people might find it offensive. That is understandable, but they may opt out of it and go on with their lives.

 

Persecution would be forbidding the building of churches, forbidding religious schools, forbidding public declaration of faith, calls for assault on the grounds of faith, etc. A whole 'nother level of situations that you cannot opt out of on a legal level. Which literally interferes with your life.

 

Two totally different things.

[WishboneDawn]

There is very little, if any, true persecution in this country. People ridiculing Christianity on a message board, while rude, is in no way persecution. If you have the option of walking away from the ridiculing comments, you're not being persecuted.

 

I'm even tiring of "rude" a bit. Is stating a belief or opinion on a discussion board where people come to discuss beliefs and opinions really rude? If one poster says they think organized religion is a sham in that context, is that really a breech of etiquette? I don't think so, not any more then the other person who might state that she think all people who don't believe in a Christian God, good or not, will go to Hell.

 

If we were at some lunch outing for a bit of socialization, yes but here where we tend to expect people to share their opinions so we can turn them over and examine them? Not in my books.

[Word Nerd]

I'm guessing their definition of persecution is very different from that of Voice of the Martyrs.

[Avila]

I think it is funny that IRL, the Christians I know who cry persecution are also the ones who happily and openly carry on the same behavior toward anyone not of their own belief system. They get to define who is or isn't Christian and who will or won't be saved.

 

It is only persecution when applied to them. When they are rude, smug, arrogant or belittling, it is ok because it is done in love to save others. They believe they are right, so whatever they say to convince others of that is done in love or for the other's own good.

 

I don't think disagreeing is persecution. I do think we can disagree respectfully, and most of the time, on here, we do.

[justamouse]

I'm guessing their definition of persecution is very different from that of Voice of the Martyrs.

 

Exactly.

[kchara]

I think it is funny that IRL, the Christians I know who cry persecution are also the ones who happily and openly carry on the same behavior toward anyone not of their own belief system. They get to define who is or isn't Christian and who will or won't be saved.

 

It is only persecution when applied to them. When they are rude, smug, arrogant or belittling, it is ok because it is done in love to save others. They believe they are right, so whatever they say to convince others of that is done in love or for the other's own good.

 

I don't think disagreeing is persecution. I do think we can disagree respectfully, and most of the time, on here, we do.

 

:iagree:

 

And, for the record, I didn't cry persecution. I said it was rude and uncalled for, and I stand by that, but I never said it was persecution. Persecution of Christians doesn't truly exist in the US today. In many, many other places, yes, absolutely, but I think it's arrogant of us as Christians to cry persecution every time someone disagrees with us, and I think it makes light of the fact that there really are people being tortured and dying tonight just so they can read the Scriptures.

[nmoira]

 

And, for the record, I didn't cry persecution.

I chose not to name names -- some of which (from other threads) I'm sure I wouldn't be able to recall in any case -- because it doesn't matter. But no, you didn't. :001_smile: Edited May 24, 2011 by nmoira

[LibraryLover]

:iagree:

There is very little, if any, true persecution in this country. People ridiculing Christianity on a message board, while rude, is in no way persecution. If you have the option of walking away from the ridiculing comments, you're not being persecuted.

[leeannpal]

There is very little, if any, true persecution in this country. People ridiculing Christianity on a message board, while rude, is in no way persecution. If you have the option of walking away from the ridiculing comments, you're not being persecuted.

 

:iagree:

[kchara]

I chose not to name names -- some of which (from other threads) I'm sure I wouldn't be able to recall in any case -- because it doesn't matter. But no, you didn't. :001_smile:

 

I know you didn't. :001_smile: I just wanted to put that out there since I started the discussion, I guess. ;)

[OnTheBrink]

I'm even tiring of "rude" a bit. Is stating a belief or opinion on a discussion board where people come to discuss beliefs and opinions really rude? If one poster says they think organized religion is a sham in that context, is that really a breech of etiquette? I don't think so, not any more then the other person who might state that she think all people who don't believe in a Christian God, good or not, will go to Hell.

 

If we were at some lunch outing for a bit of socialization, yes but here where we tend to expect people to share their opinions so we can turn them over and examine them? Not in my books.

 

There are ways to express one's dislike for something (like organized religion) without being insulting.

[kchara]

There are ways to express one's dislike for something (like organized religion) without being insulting.

 

:iagree:

[mommaduck]

The Camping thread is not the first time I've been baffled here by the idea of someone who is American and Christian bringing up persecution. How does that play out on a personal, political, our societal level? I just don't get it. The US as I see it is overwhelmingly Christian. No president has ever been (and will not soon be) a non-Christian. No one is protesting the building of new churches. Please help me out here.

 

I'd prefer if this weren't turned into a debate thread, but hoping is the limit of my special powers. :001_smile:

Change to "preventing" rather than protesting. Yes, there are laws enacted that prevent building new churches in various areas and rebuilding churches on their own property (aka St Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church in NYC where the land was stolen by the Port Authority...fine, you don't have to debate it. I don't want to either, but it is a soap box issue of mine).

 

Beyond that, yes, I agree with you that most Americans that scream "persecution" don't know what real persecution is.

[Hedgehogs4]

I think that American Christians understand that their "persecution" is not in the form of that in say, "Voice of the Martyrs." It's not so much what is happening now, but rather they see coming. We have been told for decades that Christians are not allowed to "legislate morality" but now we are being forced, against our freedom of religion, to accept moral standards that fly in the face of our belief systems. So who is legislating morality?

 

Another red flag on the horizon is the adoption of nationalized standards of learning. If you don't comply / test according to their standards of learning, then you may not be eligible for scholarships, diplomas, or worse, admission to places of higher learning in general...

 

eta-this is certainly not the totality of the "list" of trends...just the two I picked for this reply.

 

It's not so much what is happening currently in the sense of Christians being pysically persecuted. I think it's more of an undercurrent of where the trends may be heading.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Hedgehogs4

[Donna]

I didn't read the Camping thing and also believe there is very little to no "real" persecution in the US. I rarely get into the religious discussions here but have been bothered by what I am going to say below though I wouldn't call it persecution...

 

I have noticed society slowly taking Christianity out of everything. From doing away with moments of silence, to people being offended by any show of Christ in Christmas, to wanting the "In God We Trust" off money, etc... (things like this seem to be in the news very often here). It seems fine in society for people to have their religious views and celebrations as long as they are not Christian. It is not politically correct to object to other people's celebrations or worship unless they are Christians. One person being offended can quickly kill any fun for the majority of others.

 

Like I said, I don't call this persecution (that is way too strong a word)...just a change in overall society and a crazy political correctness. We are still allowed to practice our religion, build churches, celebrate our holidays, and no one is going to throw us in jail or kill us for these things. It is the public displays of our religion that seem to be objected to.

[Guest]

I'll name names. I am the one who quoted the below verses in the other thread:

 

 

Matthew 5:10-12 (New King James Version)

 

10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,

For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

 

John 15:18-20 (New King James Version)

 

The World’s Hatred

18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

 

 

I posted these because I could tell another member was offended, and I thought that these verses would make her feel better. My point was more that people dislike Christians/Christian beliefs and feel the need to mock, or make Christians feel like they are slow/uneducated for believing. This did not happen only in the referenced thread, but many others as well. I didn't think people were going to nitpick it. It was supposed to encourage any Christians who felt ridiculed.

 

On the other hand, persecution can come in many forms. I hate to say this, "but if you refer to the dictionary" you will see it does not just involve bodily harm:

 

per·se·cute/ˈpərsəˌkyo͞ot/Verb

1. Subject (someone) to hostility and ill-treatment, esp. because of their race or political or religious beliefs.

2. Harass or annoy (someone) persistently. To annoy or trouble persistently.

 

Anytime there is a thread with Christian Content, the same posters go on and say the same things over and over again. They belittle, mock, etc. It's repeated and expected.

 

My question is this: why do non Christians feel the need to go onto threads they know are full of Christian content, and do this? Why do they feel the need to convince Christians they are wrong (according to them)? I'm not saying every "mocker" is atheist, but you can see why a Christian would want to convince an atheist of their beliefs (they want them to be saved), but why would an atheist want to convince a Christian to believe in nothing? Why the urgency? Back to the original point, why the need to jump into every CC thread and say the same old stuff over and over? Don't believe me? Do a search and see what happens in most CC threads (the ones that weren't deleted after they went downhill).

[Guest]

I think that American Christians understand that their "persecution" is not in the form of that in say, "Voice of the Martyrs." It's not so much what is happening now, but rather they see coming. We have been told for decades that Christians are not allowed to "legislate morality" but now we are being forced, against our freedom of religion, to accept moral standards that fly in the face of our belief systems. So who is legislating morality?

 

Another red flag on the horizon is the adoption of nationalized standards of learning. If you don't comply / test according to their standards of learning, then you may not be eligible for scholarships, diplomas, or worse, admission to places of higher learning in general...

 

eta-this is certainly not the totality of the "list" of trends...just the two I picked for this reply.

 

It's not so much what is happening currently in the sense of Christians being pysically persecuted. I think it's more of an undercurrent of where the trends may be heading.

 

 

Well said!

[Guest]

I think it is funny that IRL, the Christians I know who cry persecution are also the ones who happily and openly carry on the same behavior toward anyone not of their own belief system. They get to define who is or isn't Christian and who will or won't be saved.

 

It is only persecution when applied to them. When they are rude, smug, arrogant or belittling, it is ok because it is done in love to save others. They believe they are right, so whatever they say to convince others of that is done in love or for the other's own good.

 

I don't think disagreeing is persecution. I do think we can disagree respectfully, and most of the time, on here, we do.

 

 

Asenik, they are talking about me because I tried to make a Christian poster feel better (by quoting some Bible verses) after they said they were offended.

 

I'm not like what you described above.

[Rivka]

I think that American Christians understand that their "persecution" is not in the form of that in say, "Voice of the Martyrs." It's not so much what is happening now, but rather they see coming. We have been told for decades that Christians are not allowed to "legislate morality" but now we are being forced, against our freedom of religion, to accept moral standards that fly in the face of our belief systems. So who is legislating morality?

 

Are there laws and policies I'm unaware of, which would require conservative Christians to have abortions, marry someone of the same sex, read obscene literature, have sex outside of marriage, et cetera? Or does the "legislating morality" you speak of involve other people being permitted to do things that your religion says are immoral?

[kchara]

I posted these because I could tell another member was offended, and I thought that these verses would make her feel better. My point was more that people dislike Christians/Christian beliefs and feel the need to mock, or make Christians feel like they are slow/uneducated for believing. This did not happen only in the referenced thread, but many others as well. I didn't think people were going to nitpick it. It was supposed to encourage any Christians who felt ridiculed.

 

 

 

I wanted to say, too, that I did appreciate that. I didn't get back until the discussion had already been going for a moment, but I did see your point, Jinnah, and I appreciated you taking the time to write that up.

 

In this sense (and from what I saw on the thread, but a good portion of it I just skimmed, I'll admit), I think the "persecution" came from the Scriptures quoted. I don't think anyone was comparing American Christians to martyrs, but, rather, Jinnah was explaining how, in the Christian belief system, we'll never be truly understood, because of the sinful nature of the world, and that it was written in Scripture, and, as much as it offends and as sad as it is, we'll always be mocked and ridiculed. THAT was the point of what she posted, not comparing us to Christians who are truly being persecuted in other areas of the world.

[nmoira]

Asenik, they are talking about me because I tried to make a Christian poster feel better (by quoting some Bible verses) after they said they were offended.

 

I'm not like what you described above.

Please go back and read the original post. This is not about you.

[kchara]

Are there laws and policies I'm unaware of, which would require conservative Christians to have abortions, marry someone of the same sex, read obscene literature, have sex outside of marriage, et cetera? Or does the "legislating morality" you speak of involve other people being permitted to do things that your religion says are immoral?

 

I believe she was referring to a moral state that society says we must accept and pretty much embrace, otherwise we are deemed intolerant and hateful. No, no one is forcing me to read obscene literature or any other thing, but, I do have to turn the magazines around in the check out aisle at WalMart before I let my children go through. We (as Christians) are expected to be tolerant of situations in society that we find appalling, however, if we speak up in the least, we get slammed. It's a double standard. Tolerance is accepting of different viewpoints all the way around. If you're tolerant to only what you agree with, then that's not true tolerance. Not sure if that makes much sense, but that's the viewpoint I've seen in society lately. We'll be tolerant of this and this and this and this... but NOT Christianity. :confused:

[LauraGB]

I'm not saying every "mocker" is atheist, but you can see why a Christian would want to convince an atheist of their beliefs (they want them to be saved), but why would an atheist want to convince a Christian to believe in nothing? Why the urgency?

 

Wow. Are you serious? How in the world is it okay for you but not them? :001_huh:

 

And furthermore, I don't get that they are trying to "convince" anyone (as you claim you feel the right to do), but rather stating their own feelings. I mean, it *is* faith, after all, isn't it?

 

And, I'm saying this all being a Christian for 30+ years, and wondering how I feel about things now. This sort of thinking, seriously, scares me away. Just so you know. And I know I'm not the only one.

[Denise in Florida]

I'm a Christian and grew up in more conservative circles than those I now frequent.

 

In conservative churches the children are often given a very strong impression that strong verbal dissent or mild mockery is persecution.

 

My own theory on that is as follows: People aren't well-educated about the past or well-acquainted with current events. They don't know about Christians currently being slaughtered or driven from their homes. They don't know about other faith groups receiving persecution at the hands of people claiming to be Christians. Their understanding of the world is very narrow.

 

So they get the idea in their heads that rudeness is the main form of persecution that Western children will encounter, and Jesus said that all His followers would suffer, so they put two and two together and say that rudeness equals persecution.

 

(When Jesus said that, He was talking to people who would indeed actually die for following Him.)

 

I could be way off base, but that's how it all felt to me even as a child.

 

I don't call disagreement persecution. You might mock my faith or argue with me, and I might feel angered, disrespected, or annoyed, but you'd have to do lots more than that for me to feel persecuted.

 

I wouldn't feel properly persecuted unless a variation on one of these events happened to me directly because of my stated faith:

 

1. Bodily harm to myself, my family or friends

2. Loss of employment or dwelling

 

:iagree::iagree: Particularly about the people who do not take the time to study church history or current world events.

 

Disagreement is not persecution.

 

There is also no 'war on Christmas'.

[LibraryLover]

A great deal of us are also sick of some religious folks trying to define who we all are Americans.

 

Certain factions of the Christian religious right play well in the mediia, even as they are not speaking for all of the US.

 

Plenty of us are tired of them (and the rest of the world) assuming they speak for most of us. These folks may have the most money to spew their stuff, but they do not have our hearts.

 

They DO NOT.

[Guest]

Please go back and read the original post. This is not about you.

 

"The Camping thread is not the first time I've been baffled here by the idea of someone who is American and Christian bringing up persecution..."

 

LOL! If I'm the one who brought up the persecution verse in the Camping thread, how is it not about me?

 

Wow. Are you serious? How in the world is it okay for you but not them? :001_huh:

 

And furthermore, I don't get that they are trying to "convince" anyone (as you claim you feel the right to do), but rather stating their own feelings. I mean, it *is* faith, after all, isn't it?

 

And, I'm saying this all being a Christian for 30+ years, and wondering how I feel about things now. This sort of thinking, seriously, scares me away. Just so you know. And I know I'm not the only one.

 

Wow, I can't win can I? I've actually never tried to convince anyone of anything. My original intent was to help someone else, and I was quoted/drawn in by another poster, and that is how the conversation was started.

 

I said what you are referencing because Christians are supposed to spread the Word in hopes that others might be saved. They are not supposed to belittle or degrade anyone. That is what you are not understanding. This "convincing" we are speaking of is not rudeness. It's talking about ones beliefs, and hoping the person might think about it some more, open their heart to God, and be saved.

 

I never said it was okay to belittle or mock anyone, ever. This is not black and white like you are trying to make it. My point is that you can see why a Christian would want to share their beliefs in a kind way. A person could gain salvation. What is the point in an atheist convincing someone to believe nothing if all that happens is you die, the end? Why bother?

 

You seem to be one poster (if I am not mistaking you for someone else) who tends to disagree with most of what I say, and that is fine, but don't twist what I am saying so you can disagree.

 

I'm sorry you are wondering about the way you feel now after 30+ years of being a Christian. I hope you find peace. I want to offer to pray for you, but a lot of people think the offer to pray is condescending too! Regardless, the offer is there if you want it.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Jinnah

[ElaineJ]

I agree with the basic premise that American Christians cannot currently be described as being persecuted, although I do know some American Christians from minority family backgrounds who have been. One woman I know, for instance, had her family throw all her things out on the street and tell her not to come back after she decided to pursue a vocation of Christian ministry. These types of situations are a product of family culture rather than the culture of the overall nation, however.

 

I guess I see and experience something as rude and agressive ("persecuting" in the extremely loose definition of the word) depending on the intention of the person addressing me. If they are saying or doing something I don't like or which offends me but I sense a concern and care for me, I don't feel too attacked by that. If I sense hostility and complete lack of concern for me as a person or any group with which I identify, this feels like an attack. So I think Camping's followers were misguided, but I do not feel anger or contempt for them. Of course they would want to warn me if they really thought the end of the world was coming! that is where I don't really understand the gleeful outpouring of bitterness and scorn for them I have seen in many places the past few days. It seems like people are delighted they were "shown up" and delight in calling them idiots.

 

Elaine

[Avila]

Asenik, they are talking about me because I tried to make a Christian poster feel better (by quoting some Bible verses) after they said they were offended.

 

I'm not like what you described above.

 

I honestly only skimmed the other thread, so I wasn't referring to it or anybody in it. I have met you in person, and I wouldn't put you in the group I was talking about. :grouphug:

 

I guess I am more thinking of a carryover from American history. The Puritans came here fleeing what they saw as religious persecution. But their religious freedom, once achieved, was certainly not extended to anyone who dared disagree with them. And there is a definite element of this hypocrisy that lives on and is felt hard by those of us who don't fit into mainstream evangelical Christianity.

 

I think it is easy on here to read into posts things that aren't intended. We don't hear tone or see body language. It is easy to become offended by things that aren't meant that way or to take personally things that really aren't. I know that I am guilty of it.

 

The other side of Evangelical Christians feeling persecuted is other Christians and non-Christians feeling patronized and condescended to. We all have our triggers. It is an ugly cycle.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Asenik

[Hannah C.]

Historically, there was plenty of persecution in the US against certain types of Christians (aka anyone who wasn't mainstream Protestant, especially the Catholics). That's all gone now though. ;)

 

There's definitely various forms of discrimination against Christians today - no prayer in schools or at graduations comes to mind. True persecution is very rare - the only thing I can think of right now are the handful of photographers/wedding planner types that have gotten into legal trouble because they refused to take homosexual couples on as clients. And even this is worlds away from the persecution experienced in other countries.

 

So yes, I think the idea of persecuted Christians in the US is, by and large, a product of verses filtered through a context very different from their original one.

[Guest]

I honestly only skimmed the other thread, so I wasn't referring to it or anybody in it. I have met you in person, and I wouldn't put you in the group I was talking about. :grouphug:

 

I think it is easy on here to read into posts things that aren't intended. We don't hear tone or see body language. It is easy to become offended by things that aren't meant that way or to take personally things that really aren't. I know it am guilty of it.

 

The other side of Evangelical Christians feeling persecuted is other Christians and non-Christians feeling patronized and condescended to. We all have our triggers. It is an ugly cycle.

 

I figured you had no clue I am the one who quoted the persecution verse; I just wanted to bring your attention to it. I am glad you know who I am... you know that I am in no way the person some people on here are making me out to be!

 

The thing is, I wasn't even that offended because I am so used to it by now, it's predictable! I was a little annoyed because the same posters seem to post on every CC thread with the same underlying message (that Christians need to educate themselves, and if they were educated, they wouldn't believe what they do, etc.). Even that wasn't enough to make me post though. I only posted because I truly felt bad for the poster who was offended. I feel like we (Christians) are all in this together and should support one another when feeling bad about something, and it encourages me when other Christians do the same for me. That was my true intention in that thread!

[Retired]

I'm guessing their definition of persecution is very different from that of Voice of the Martyrs.

 

:iagree:

[Rosie_0801]

My question is this: why do non Christians feel the need to go onto threads they know are full of Christian content, and do this? Why do they feel the need to convince Christians they are wrong (according to them)? I'm not saying every "mocker" is atheist, but you can see why a Christian would want to convince an atheist of their beliefs (they want them to be saved), but why would an atheist want to convince a Christian to believe in nothing? Why the urgency? Back to the original point, why the need to jump into every CC thread and say the same old stuff over and over? Don't believe me? Do a search and see what happens in most CC threads (the ones that weren't deleted after they went downhill).

 

I find the difference in perceptions interesting. I see a greater quantity of arguments between different varieties of Christian than I see of Other v Christian.

 

But I would, wouldn't I? :tongue_smilie:

 

To answer your question, atheists who try to talk Christians out of their beliefs believe Christianity to be unhealthy and based on falsehoods. They want to save you, but on a different spot on the timeline to where you usually think when you think about saving. If that makes sense- I have a slight headache and the words aren't doing a good job of organising themselves. :tongue_smilie:

 

Btw, I don't think it is correct to say that an atheist wants to convince a Christian to believe in nothing. Atheists don't believe in deities but they do believe in other things.

 

Rosie

[twoforjoy]

I tend to think that Christians in the United States who feel they are persecuted need to sit down and read Acts.

 

I'm a Christian, and I certainly don't feel persecuted or discriminated against in any way. I work in academia, I know that many people do not share my beliefs, but to describe holding a view that is a minority view in some settings, or perhaps an unpopular view in some settings, as "persecution" seems way off-base to me.

[kchara]

Historically, there was plenty of persecution in the US against certain types of Christians (aka anyone who wasn't mainstream Protestant, especially the Catholics). That's all gone now though. ;)

 

There's definitely various forms of discrimination against Christians today - no prayer in schools or at graduations comes to mind. True persecution is very rare - the only thing I can think of right now are the handful of photographers/wedding planner types that have gotten into legal trouble because they refused to take homosexual couples on as clients. And even this is worlds away from the persecution experienced in other countries.

 

So yes, I think the idea of persecuted Christians in the US is, by and large, a product of verses filtered through a context very different from their original one.

 

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. Modern day American Christians (especially of a conservative bent) have a hard time distinguishing between discrimination and persecution. There is a difference between the two. We're not being persecuted. I do believe we are being discriminated against.

[Dolphin]

I think it is funny that IRL, the Christians I know who cry persecution are also the ones who happily and openly carry on the same behavior toward anyone not of their own belief system. They get to define who is or isn't Christian and who will or won't be saved.

 

It is only persecution when applied to them. When they are rude, smug, arrogant or belittling, it is ok because it is done in love to save others. They believe they are right, so whatever they say to convince others of that is done in love or for the other's own good.

 

I don't think disagreeing is persecution. I do think we can disagree respectfully, and most of the time, on here, we do.

 

 

This might be the problem. You probably know a lot more Christian IRL who aren't like that. They just try to not call attention to themselves. There is a small, vocal group of Christians that are ignoring certain parts of the bible while putting great worth on other parts of it. They are loud, and I know the *I personally* and a lot of members at my church have gone quiet. I don't where my cross as often as I used to, I have switched to a Trinity circle. It is still a sign of faith, just not as glaring. I am not ashamed of my faith to God, but at this time, prayer has told me to quietly let my light shine. I am trying to not focus on others, but walk the path that God wants me too. From that I have had some very interesting conversations with people who have known me for years, and didn't know I was Christian. They were surprised that my views were not the same as the vocal minority.

 

Now saying all of that. No, Christians are not persecuted, but because of this vocal group, there is a lot of mockery, rudeness, and misinformation about Christians out there. I try hard everyday to not be judgmental about this group, and to pray for them. I turn the other cheek, a lot! About a year ago though I finally lost it with one person. I told them it was hypocritical to be respectful of all religions, but mock one. That I was sick and tired of it. I am a Christian and I respect all religions, and the right of people to not have a religion. Sometimes the comments just get to you and you lose it. This is a big board, anytime there is a Christian conversation you might have that one person, that just is having one of the days. Straw that broke the camels back.

 

I hope that wasn't too much of a ramble.

 

Nicole

[LauraGB]

 

Wow, I can't win can I? I've actually never tried to convince anyone of anything. My original intent was to help someone else, and I was quoted/drawn in by another poster, and that is how the conversation was started.

 

I said what you are referencing because Christians are supposed to spread the Word in hopes that others might be saved. They are not supposed to belittle or degrade anyone. That is what you are not understanding. This "convincing" we are speaking of is not rudeness. It's talking about ones beliefs, and hoping the person might think about it some more, open their heart to God, and be saved.

 

I never said it was okay to belittle or mock anyone, ever. This is not black and white like you are trying to make it. My point is that you can see why a Christian would want to share their beliefs in a kind way. A person could gain salvation. What is the point in an atheist convincing someone to believe nothing if all that happens is you die, the end? Why bother?

 

You seem to be one poster (if I am not mistaking you for someone else) who tends to disagree with most of what I say, and that is fine, but don't twist what I am saying so you can disagree.

 

I'm sorry you are wondering about the way you feel now after 30+ years of being a Christian. I hope you find peace. I want to offer to pray for you, but a lot of people think the offer to pray is condescending too! Regardless, the offer is there if you want it.

 

Look, Jinnah, I simply quoted and referred to a statement you made; the sort of statement that gets under my skin in a big way. Those sorts of words make Christians seem more self edifying than anything else, and it's not helpful if they are trying "to save" those on the fringe. Maybe your communication techniques don't transfer well via the keyboard. I don't know.

 

As a rule, I generally stay out of these sorts of threads, so I can't imagine why you would consider me "one [of those] posters" that disagrees with most of what you say - I really do think you have mistaken me for someone else.

[LibraryLover]

I find the difference in perceptions interesting. I see a greater quantity of arguments between different varieties of Christian than I see of Other v Christian.

 

 

 

Spot on.

 

A great many Americans feel exactly the same way. Certain folks have a well-funded $$$ platform, but they do not represent the greatest majority.

Edited May 24, 2011 by LibraryLover

[twoforjoy]

We (as Christians) are expected to be tolerant of situations in society that we find appalling, however, if we speak up in the least, we get slammed. It's a double standard.

 

I'm honestly not sure what the double standard is. People are free to say they disagree with your beliefs, and even to mock and insult them; you, in turn, are free to say that you disagree with their beliefs, and even to mock and insult them. However, neither of you is able, in the cases mentioned, to force the other to actually live in a way contrary to your own values.

 

Yes, you are expected to be tolerant of people having views different from your own, just as they are tolerant of you. Who is trying to pass laws making it illegal for conservative Christians to marry or adopt children? To force conservative Christians to have abortions? To try to make being a Christian a grounds for being fired from your job? I don't see anybody doing those things, and to me that's what would be a double standard.

[justamouse]

I find the difference in perceptions interesting. I see a greater quantity of arguments between different varieties of Christian than I see of Other v Christian.

 

 

Rosie

 

Rosie for the win.

[LibraryLover]

. We're not being persecuted. I do believe we are being discriminated against.

 

It might be because such folks are trying to represent all of us, and you hardly represent any of us. A lot of folks are tired of so few trying to speak for so many.

[MrsBasil]

Historically, there was plenty of persecution in the US against certain types of Christians (aka anyone who wasn't mainstream Protestant, especially the Catholics). That's all gone now though. ;)

 

There's definitely various forms of discrimination against Christians today - no prayer in schools or at graduations comes to mind. True persecution is very rare - the only thing I can think of right now are the handful of photographers/wedding planner types that have gotten into legal trouble because they refused to take homosexual couples on as clients. And even this is worlds away from the persecution experienced in other countries.

 

So yes, I think the idea of persecuted Christians in the US is, by and large, a product of verses filtered through a context very different from their original one.

 

Would the bolded(by me) even be considered discrimination against Christians? Other religious groups pray and they are just as prohibited from certain forms of prayer in public schools as Christians are.

 

I thought that anyone can silently pray, have a group prayer that is not sanctioned by the school(the meet you at the flag pole thing), and so on. The schools can't lead anyone in prayer and students/staff can't publicly lead prayer at school events, like football games or graduation?

[nmoira]

"The Camping thread is not the first time I've been baffled here by the idea of someone who is American and Christian bringing up persecution..."

 

LOL! If I'm the one who brought up the persecution verse in the Camping thread, how is it not about me?

Bolding mine. It isn't about you because I say it isn't about you. Because I started the thread. Because I'm not lying to you. Because as far as I know I'm not delusional (my shunning of Saxon math notwithstanding). Because it's something I've seen here a number of times before (and more explicitly than anything you posted). If you want something to be about you, how about I say "I've heard this and wondered about this a number of times and today was finally the day I was spurred to ask." You were the proverbial straw, if you will, that caused my curiosity about this idea to get the best of me.

 

You can make it about you if you choose, and I can't stop that. But it wasn't my intention; otherwise I would have PM'd you about it before starting a thread about you.