s/o Harold Camping: persecution

[Shawna in Texas]

 

To answer your question, atheists who try to talk Christians out of their beliefs believe Christianity to be unhealthy and based on falsehoods. They want to save you, but on a different spot on the timeline to where you usually think when you think about saving. If that makes sense- I have a slight headache and the words aren't doing a good job of organising themselves. :tongue_smilie:

 

Btw, I don't think it is correct to say that an atheist wants to convince a Christian to believe in nothing. Atheists don't believe in deities but they do believe in other things.

 

Rosie

 

And to elaborate an atheistic POV, I don't have an interest in making Christians disbelieve. I would think that if your faith is so strong that it would cause you to harm your children then I don't see how in the world it is considered rude or bashing to call that delusion.

[Aelwydd]

A great deal of us are also sick of some religious folks trying to define who we all are Americans.

 

Certain factions of the Christian religious right play well in the mediia, even as they are not speaking for all of the US.

 

Plenty of us are tired of them (and the rest of the world) assuming they speak for most of us. These folks may have the most money to spew their stuff, but they do not have our hearts.

 

They DO NOT.

 

Hear, hear. (I speak as a Christian who is tired of having my faith defined only by the face of conservative Christianity in this country.)

[Avila]

The thing is, I wasn't even that offended because I am so used to it by now, it's predictable! I was a little annoyed because the same posters seem to post on every CC thread with the same underlying message (that Christians need to educate themselves, and if they were educated, they wouldn't believe what they do, etc.). Even that wasn't enough to make me post though. I only posted because I truly felt bad for the poster who was offended. I feel like we (Christians) are all in this together and should support one another when feeling bad about something, and it encourages me when other Christians do the same for me. That was my true intention in that thread!

 

I am sorry that you are feeling attacked. I think you are bearing the brunt of something way bigger on this thread -- and having met you in person, I don't feel like the perception is accurate for you. :grouphug:

 

I think some of this is a matter of perception and POV. You see people coming on every CC thread posting about Christians needing to educate themselves out of their Christian beliefs. I have seen the same thing on every Mormon, Catholic, non-Christian thread too. If they would only read these verses, they would share our faith. ;)

 

Why do you notice the ones you notice while I notice the ones I notice? I think it is a difference in POV, sensitivity and perception. But it happens to all of us. We are all going to notice the ones that we feel attack our own POV more.

 

My more general point was that this country has historically been protestant Christian, and there is a long history of people who don't fit that mold being left out, overlooked, and marginalized, at best. Now that a shift has occured and the protestant Christian majority is being challenged, many of them see it as persecution. What they are experiencing isn't any different than what they minority has always experienced. But no longer being the majority position and having the benefits associated with it is not the same thing as being persecuted.

 

I am sorry that anybody feels persecuted or offended. :grouphug:

Edited May 24, 2011 by Asenik

[kchara]

I'm honestly not sure what the double standard is. People are free to say they disagree with your beliefs, and even to mock and insult them; you, in turn, are free to say that you disagree with their beliefs, and even to mock and insult them. However, neither of you is able, in the cases mentioned, to force the other to actually live in a way contrary to your own values.

 

Yes, you are expected to be tolerant of people having views different from your own, just as they are tolerant of you. Who is trying to pass laws making it illegal for conservative Christians to marry or adopt children? To force conservative Christians to have abortions? To try to make being a Christian a grounds for being fired from your job? I don't see anybody doing those things, and to me that's what would be a double standard.

 

Well, my tax dollars do go to things that I find morally objectionable, so, in that regard, it does happen. There was also a case in the UK recently where a foster family was denied taking any more children because of their Christianity. Christians in the US see things like that coming down the pipe for us as well.

 

But, as I said earlier, it's not really a legislative issue, it's a society issue. In our society, it's perfectly fine to be tolerant of everything... except Christianity. It's completely fine in our society to mock Christianity and no one bats an eye. Mock other belief systems or lifestyle choices, and society has a real problem with that. No belief system should be mocked and ridiculed, period. Including Christianity.

[kchara]

Without defending, in any way, the original statement, I wonder if this is really true.

 

Is there a non-offensive way to tell someone, with *specifics*, that you believe their faith is false and groundless?

 

Isn't it intrinsically insulting (or insulting feeling at least) to be told that you're putting your faith in fairy tales?

 

...and what other position can an atheist, for example have? ...but that you and I, in very different ways, are deluded, have bought into a pack of lies.

 

Is there a *nice* way to say that?

 

...but how is that any worse than someone telling an atheist that if s/he just saw more clearly the world of faith would be revealed to her... or whatever a proselytizer might say? It's the same thing, really. It is saying that the other person's view of the universe is utterly false.

 

I had people write to me with hurt feelings when I shared, in a thread that was dealing with some theological specifics, that, for a Jew Xtianity is avodah zara (idol worship) and Islam is not. *Is* there a way to state that fact in a non-hurtful way?

 

Is there a way for a Xtian to tell me that the sacred Torah G-d gave to my people *proves* that my faith is false? It is what y'all believe... but it certainly isn't a comfortable thing to keep hearing.

 

Or, and this *did* hurt and offend me, when the libel "Christ killers" is put on my people again. There are those who *believe* that, who believe that your New Testament clearly attributes blame to my people.

 

...and is there a polite way for me to run through why the claims there make no sense to anyone who understands how Jewish Law works?

 

When we argue matters of faith, it is almost impossible for some toes not to get stepped on, or some feelings not to be hurt. ...and there are some religious 'truths' that *are* offensive to others not of that faith.

 

...and there are some 'truths' that an atheist might share which are offensive to those of a theistic faith.

 

...but if we wish to engage in dialogue, if we wish to free to express our own thoughts and beliefs, there needs to be room for others to do so as well.

 

I feel that there is *much* less respect here for the expressions of belief that atheists make than for those made by people of faith, any faith. ...and that bothers me deeply.

 

I think the question might become does it actually contribute to the conversation or is it simply insulting? In the original thread, I didn't think it contributed at all. If it doesn't contribute, then does it need to be said, and, if not, then why say it, if not to be insulting? In which case, it's wrong, coming from anyone, of any faith or lack thereof.

[Guest]

And to elaborate an atheistic POV, I don't have an interest in making Christians disbelieve. I would think that if your faith is so strong that it would cause you to harm your children then I don't see how in the world it is considered rude or bashing to call that delusion.

I don't know any Christians like that.

 

I am sorry that you are feeling attacked. I think you are bearing the brunt of something way bigger on this thread -- and having met you in person, I don't feel like the perception is accurate for you. :grouphug:

 

I think some of this is a matter of perception and POV. You see people coming on every CC thread posting about Christians needing to educate themselves out of their Christian beliefs. I have seen the same thing on every Mormon, Catholic, non-Christian thread too. If they would only read these verses, they would share our faith. ;)

 

Why do you notice the ones you notice while I notice the ones I notice? I think it is a difference in POV, sensitivity and perception. But it happens to all of us. We are all going to notice the ones that we feel attack our own POV more.

 

My more general point was that this country has historically been protestant Christian, and there is a long history of people who don't fit that mold being left out, overlooked, and marginalized, at best. Now that a shift has occured and the protestant Christian majority is being challenged, many of them see it as persecution. But what they are experiencing isn't any different than what they minority has always experienced. But no longer being the majority position and having the benefits associated with it is not the same thing as being persecuted.

 

I am sorry that anybody feels persecuted or offended. :grouphug:

 

Asenik, I havs noticed it on the ones you refer to, as well. It's always wrong, and I agree with what you are saying. Well said.

 

On the other hand, I do think anyone being treated badly for their beliefs is being persecuted. To me this includes the repeated mocking, but I seem to be in the minority here. Sorry to be so brief, but I'm on my Nook Color and it takes forever to "type". :tongue_smilie:

[Avila]

This might be the problem. You probably know a lot more Christian IRL who aren't like that. They just try to not call attention to themselves.

 

Yeah, I think I agree with you.

 

There is a vocal group out there who does try to make all of Christianity look a certain way and fit a certain mold. They do tend to speak for all Christians, and the rest of us get painted with their brush, like it or not.

 

Religion is hard because people are so passionate about it. And it quickly switches from I think I am right to I am right, therefore everyone else must be wrong. I am not sure how we think about these things or talk about them without either taking the hardline "right' position or moving into moral relativism, where everyone can be right and it doesn't matter. I just don't know if people can talk about religion without offending somehow.

[Impish]

Thing with religion is, of COURSE you think your faith is right, otherwise you wouldn't be following it.

 

Its not a compromise issue. Nobody follows a faith they believe to be wrong.

[twoforjoy]

Thing with religion is, of COURSE you think your faith is right, otherwise you wouldn't be following it.

 

Its not a compromise issue. Nobody follows a faith they believe to be wrong.

 

That's true. But I think, when we're talking about matters that we simply cannot conclusively know the full and absolute truth about, a degree of humility is required, as well as the recognition that it's fully possible for kind, caring, decent, moral, sincere, truth-seeking people to come to radically different conclusions on these matters.

 

So I agree that people think their faith is right, but I also think that has to come with the knowledge that you could be wrong and the humility that goes along with that.

[Rosie_0801]

I just don't know if people can talk about religion without offending somehow.

 

Oh yeah, it is possible. Religion was the topic of small talk when hubby and I started dating. :lol:

 

Rosie

[Impish]

That's true. But I think, when we're talking about matters that we simply cannot conclusively know the full and absolute truth about, a degree of humility is required, as well as the recognition that it's fully possible for kind, caring, decent, moral, sincere, truth-seeking people to come to radically different conclusions on these matters.

 

So I agree that people think their faith is right, but I also think that has to come with the knowledge that you could be wrong and the humility that goes along with that.

To the underlined, I agree.

 

To the bolded, I disagree. If you believe your faith could be wrong, to many ppl, that would be a lack of faith.

[Shawna in Texas]

I don't know any Christians like that.

 

 

Fortunately, I don't either, but as it was mentioned in the other thread, it happened.

[Avila]

Oh yeah, it is possible. Religion was the topic of small talk when hubby and I started dating. :lol:

 

Rosie

 

Yes, but you are Rosie and not "people". :D You are just in a different category than a lot of this mess, I think.

 

And maybe one on one, it is possible. I have yet to see it on the internet though.

[Jennifer3141]

When Vermont tries to make heterosexual marriage illegal, then conservative Xtians can feel "persecuted." When Wisconsin makes it illegal for Christians to adopt children, then feel "persecuted." Until then...

 

The British court did NOT deny a couple a chance to adopt because they were Christian. It denied them their adoption because they were homophobic and openly discriminated against homosexuals, which is a violation of British civil rights laws.

 

There are many Christians who have no problems with homosexuality. Their ability to adopt is not harmed in any way. That court case is NOT an example of persecution.

 

What if the Johns couple believed (and openly and proudly went into the issue on the application as happened with the issue of premarital sex and homosexuality) that mentally retarded people should not be allowed equal rights in GB? What about black people? Jews? Would you still feel that this case is an example of "persecution of Xtianity?"

[OnTheBrink]

Without defending, in any way, the original statement, I wonder if this is really true.

 

Is there a non-offensive way to tell someone, with *specifics*, that you believe their faith is false and groundless?

 

Isn't it intrinsically insulting (or insulting feeling at least) to be told that you're putting your faith in fairy tales?

 

...and what other position can an atheist, for example have? ...but that you and I, in very different ways, are deluded, have bought into a pack of lies.

 

Is there a *nice* way to say that?

 

...but how is that any worse than someone telling an atheist that if s/he just saw more clearly the world of faith would be revealed to her... or whatever a proselytizer might say? It's the same thing, really. It is saying that the other person's view of the universe is utterly false.

 

I had people write to me with hurt feelings when I shared, in a thread that was dealing with some theological specifics, that, for a Jew Xtianity is avodah zara (idol worship) and Islam is not. *Is* there a way to state that fact in a non-hurtful way?

 

Is there a way for a Xtian to tell me that the sacred Torah G-d gave to my people *proves* that my faith is false? It is what y'all believe... but it certainly isn't a comfortable thing to keep hearing.

 

Or, and this *did* hurt and offend me, when the libel "Christ killers" is put on my people again. There are those who *believe* that, who believe that your New Testament clearly attributes blame to my people.

 

...and is there a polite way for me to run through why the claims there make no sense to anyone who understands how Jewish Law works?

 

When we argue matters of faith, it is almost impossible for some toes not to get stepped on, or some feelings not to be hurt. ...and there are some religious 'truths' that *are* offensive to others not of that faith.

 

...and there are some 'truths' that an atheist might share which are offensive to those of a theistic faith.

 

...but if we wish to engage in dialogue, if we wish to free to express our own thoughts and beliefs, there needs to be room for others to do so as well.

 

I feel that there is *much* less respect here for the expressions of belief that atheists make than for those made by people of faith, any faith. ...and that bothers me deeply.

 

Well, I can only speak for myself here. Regardless of how I feel about someone else's beliefs, I'd not use derogatory terms such as "fairy tales", "opiate of the masses", "Jesus killer" or anything else. If I was having a respectful conversation with someone of a different belief system about our respective faiths, I'd realize that the use of potentially offensive terms or references would squelch the conversation.

 

I think one could say that they don't believe in Christianity and they don't believe what the Bible says without actually referring to it as fairy tales. "I don't believe those stories are true" gets the point across without offense. So, yeah, I do think a point can be made without insults. That doesn't mean someone's polite disagreement can't be taken offensively, because some people can't handle it when people don't agree with or think like them 100% of the time, but I think most of us here are relatively intelligent and can use words that express their views without using offensive and insulting terms.

[Amy loves Bud]

Why do they feel the need to convince Christians they are wrong (according to them)? I'm not saying every "mocker" is atheist, but you can see why a Christian would want to convince an atheist of their beliefs (they want them to be saved), but why would an atheist want to convince a Christian to believe in nothing? Why the urgency?

 

Imagine you have no faith in a deity, yet you see people doing all kinds of despicable things in the name of religion. Camping causing people to cash it all in for the rapture. Muslim terrorists bombing things. Palestine. Homosexuals being denied the same rights as other couples consisting of two consenting adults. (And we haven't even opened a history book yet.)

 

These things don't truly represent the hearts of many of the followers of various religions, but like it or not they are a big part of the face of religion in the world today. I can see why someone who was confident that there was no deity would want to convince a Christian that they are wrong. If you don't believe in an afterlife you really want this one to be good, and we religious folk have a tendency to mess this one up.

[Peela]

Some people just love and thrive on the drama.

I really don't get why people take things so personally on a message board. It's a debate of ideas. It's natural to be touched- that stimulates further thinking, but to use big loaded words like persecution is just way over dramatic.

I think the art of debate is practiced here beautifully and frequently, but many of us could do with more training in it.

[Rosie_0801]

And maybe one on one, it is possible. I have yet to see it on the internet though.

 

There are usually pages of respectful conversation on threads before they go downhill, if they do go downhill and they don't always. Take heart ;)

 

:)

Rosie

[kalanamak]

So I think Camping's followers were misguided, but I do not feel anger or contempt for them. Of course they would want to warn me if they really thought the end of the world was coming! that is where I don't really understand the gleeful outpouring of bitterness and scorn for them I have seen in many places the past few days. It seems like people are delighted they were "shown up" and delight in calling them idiots.

 

 

A roaring cheer of "don't drink the Kool-aid". People like this can be LETHAL, and I think derision is a more powerful tool than illegality or tsk-tsking. Call me an unsaved rude person, but I am dripping the derision into my son's ear. Call a fool a fool.

 

Just a thought.

 

(And since this was non-lethal, I'm not really investigating it. The cults that do turn lethal get a lot of reading out of me. But I am in the orbit of suicide prevention, professionally.)

[Hannah C.]

Would the bolded(by me) even be considered discrimination against Christians? Other religious groups pray and they are just as prohibited from certain forms of prayer in public schools as Christians are.

 

I thought that anyone can silently pray, have a group prayer that is not sanctioned by the school(the meet you at the flag pole thing), and so on. The schools can't lead anyone in prayer and students/staff can't publicly lead prayer at school events, like football games or graduation?

 

Yes, you're right - that was a bad example. (That's what I get for going with the off the top of my head thought.) I thought of it because the specific cases I've heard of concerned Christian prayer - specifically, Santa Fe ISD v Jane Doe, in which the Supreme Court ruled that *student led* prayer before high school football games was unconstitutional.

 

I tried to think of another example, but the one I thought of was another specifically-Christian-in-this-case-but-could-be-the-same-with-another-religion deal. I do wonder whether it *would* be the same. Christianity is by far the most visible religion in the US, which could be the only reason I've never heard of anyone getting upset about having a high school graduation in an Islamic center instead of in a church with a cross at the front.

[Shannon in TN]

I confess that I haven't read this whole thread - just the first page - (this one, nor the other Camping one) but there is a family at my church that came here from Africa. The mother and children left first, with their father following behind. They fled Africa because he was a Christian pastor there and was truly persecuted. He has the scars on his back to prove it.

 

Here in America, I just don't see Christians being persecuted as they are in other countries. We're blessed to have the legal right to religious freedom. Yes, there are some "nutjobs" out there that I would sometimes on my worse day like to see persecuted (a certain church in Kansas, for example) but as much as I think they are wrong, they have the right to do what they do.

[tex-mex]

I confess that I haven't read this whole thread - just the first page - (this one, nor the other Camping one) but there is a family at my church that came here from Africa. The mother and children left first, with their father following behind. They fled Africa because he was a Christian pastor there and was truly persecuted. He has the scars on his back to prove it.

 

Here in America, I just don't see Christians being persecuted as they are in other countries. We're blessed to have the legal right to religious freedom. Yes, there are some "nutjobs" out there that I would sometimes on my worse day like to see persecuted (a certain church in Kansas, for example) but as much as I think they are wrong, they have the right to do what they do.

I have yet to read the other thread or this one... I just found this last post. But I sure do agree with you! :) I don't get it either when folks here in our country say 'tis so?

[Paintedlady]

Are there laws and policies I'm unaware of, which would require conservative Christians to have abortions, marry someone of the same sex, read obscene literature, have sex outside of marriage, et cetera? Or does the "legislating morality" you speak of involve other people being permitted to do things that your religion says are immoral?

 

 

No, but laws are coming that will require that school children are taught that these things are moral.

 

http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/story/Gay-History-Might-Be-Taught-in-California-Schools/93mjRW9T70W-KLACaR56dA.cspx

 

There are people who openly advocate for teaching young children that these things are right and good.

http://www.queerty.com/can-we-please-just-start-admitting-that-we-do-actually-want-to-indoctrinate-kids-20110512/

[twoforjoy]

No, but laws are coming that will require that school children are taught that these things are moral.

 

http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/story/Gay-History-Might-Be-Taught-in-California-Schools/93mjRW9T70W-KLACaR56dA.cspx

 

I don't see how that teaches that being gay is "moral," any more than teaching about, say, Eugene V. Debs is teaching students that socialism is correct or than teaching about Ronald Reagan means students are learning that being a conservative Christian is the right way to be.

 

I also don't see how that's persecution. Is anybody planning to take away your right to believe that homosexuality is inherently sinful, and to teach your child that?

 

There are plenty of things that school children are taught that, as a very left-leaning person, I do not agree with at all, particularly around capitalism and competition. I don't feel that I am persecuted because schools don't teach everything from my perspective, or even if they teach things that I outright disagree with. I'm free to teach my child otherwise at home, to educate them differently, and to otherwise counter that teaching.

[Joy at Home]

Haven't read any responses, computer broke and typing on ipod, so brief and with terrible grammar:

 

I dont feel persecuted as a christian. Im thankful to live ina culture of religious freedom, as any study of history will demonstrate what true religious persecution is.

 

My posts on the original thread did not come from persecution in the least. They were merely a matter of ETIQUETTE. Play nice with my beliefs as i play nice with yours:001_smile:

 

Some here stated theyve been insulted many times here and in real life for their nonreligios views, therefore we should just suck it up when our religion is insulted (my words). Fine. At least thats honest. Doesnt mean im not going to call people on it. Its wrong both ways.

 

Nope,, no pity party feelings of persecution here. Just dont like tit for tat.

 

Lisa

[WishboneDawn]

There are ways to express one's dislike for something (like organized religion) without being insulting.

 

I'm not sure there's a way to say that you think organized religion is a crock without offending someone. :)

[mommaduck]

I don't see how that teaches that being gay is "moral," any more than teaching about, say, Eugene V. Debs is teaching students that socialism is correct or than teaching about Ronald Reagan means students are learning that being a conservative Christian is the right way to be.

 

I also don't see how that's persecution. Is anybody planning to take away your right to believe that homosexuality is inherently sinful, and to teach your child that?

 

There are plenty of things that school children are taught that, as a very left-leaning person, I do not agree with at all, particularly around capitalism and competition. I don't feel that I am persecuted because schools don't teach everything from my perspective, or even if they teach things that I outright disagree with. I'm free to teach my child otherwise at home, to educate them differently, and to otherwise counter that teaching.

Try being the child in a classroom that gets slapped by the teacher for telling the teacher that they believe it's immoral after a class on the subject (yes, real case). Yes, slapping a student is unacceptable under all circumstances, but the point is, students get targeted in various ways if they don't embrace, not just endure, the status quo.

[WishboneDawn]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Modern day American Christians (especially of a conservative bent) have a hard time distinguishing between discrimination and persecution. There is a difference between the two. We're not being persecuted. I do believe we are being discriminated against.

 

You'd have to work hard to convince me of that. You live in a country where an athiest very likely wouldn't have a chance of becoming president simply because he/she is an atheist.

 

There are no doubt areas of push back where it seems Christianity is being taken out of the public sphere but those things aren't happening in a void. Often it's an attempt to balance ingrained and almost invisible biases towards Christianity.

 

Perhaps it's wrongheaded but it's not something we'll fix by crying discrimination. First, we'll have to admit our position in society and then we'll have to have a lot of hard conversations.

[MelanieM]

I said what you are referencing because Christians are supposed to spread the Word in hopes that others might be saved. They are not supposed to belittle or degrade anyone. That is what you are not understanding. This "convincing" we are speaking of is not rudeness. It's talking about ones beliefs, and hoping the person might think about it some more, open their heart to God, and be saved.

 

 

I find it ironic that if someone says they believe that religion is a man-made construct to help control the masses it is considered insulting, mocking, offensive, etc. but if a Christian says the person simply needs to accept Jesus to know the Truth, that is somehow *not* condescending or insulting. Either it's all out-of-bounds and rude, or it isn't. Either people can voice their personal opinions freely, or they can't.

 

For the record, I don't mind people saying they think I need to be saved (though I disagree), or that they don't believe in any religion (doesn't describe my beliefs either). People are allowed to think whatever they want to think; it matters not to me.

Some here stated theyve been insulted many times here and in real life for their nonreligios views, therefore we should just suck it up when our religion is insulted (my words). Fine. At least thats honest. Doesnt mean im not going to call people on it. Its wrong both ways.

 

Nope,, no pity party feelings of persecution here. Just dont like tit for tat.

 

I just want to be clear, because I'm one of the people who addressed that on the other thread... My point was not that we should all go around insulting others' religions, but rather that we should understand that we get to choose whether or not we find things insulting. In that specific instance, no one was directing comments at anyone specifically; they were stating a belief that you happen to disagree with. People state things here all the time that I disagree with, and I get to choose whether or not I am going to get in a huff about that stuff or just brush it off as a difference of opinion. It's only personal when we make it personal.

[WishboneDawn]

Hear, hear. (I speak as a Christian who is tired of having my faith defined only by the face of conservative Christianity in this country.)

 

Yup. I think there's a brand of Christianity that does more harm and sets more people against us then any outside secular or atheist force ever could.

 

Frankly, I think outside secular and atheist forces are probably helping us to a great degree. They're challenging us, pushing us, making us dust off our thinking caps and very often pointing out our hypocrisies. We've gotten fat and lazy by being at the top of the heap for so long and come to expect things like prayer in school.

 

I think it was being married to an atheist is what spurred me on to become educated about my faith.

[Joy at Home]

I'm not sure there's a way to say that you think organized religion is a crock without offending someone. :)

 

 

Nice.

 

Something tells me that not offending isnt a concern of yours at all.

[MelanieM]

Nice.

 

Something tells me that not offending isnt a concern of yours at all.

 

?? I think Dawn was expressing her disagreement with an earlier comment that there is a way to express that specific belief without causing offense.

 

So maybe someone could let us know how it would be possible to express the idea that all religion is a man-made construct and contains no truth that is not offensive to you? Genuine question. Because what I'm reading here is leading me to believe that there are some people that think it is never ok to express such opinions because the belief itself is offensive by its very nature.

[delaney]

?? I think Dawn was expressing her disagreement with an earlier comment that there is a way to express that specific belief without causing offense.

 

So maybe someone could let us know how it would be possible to express the idea that all religion is a man-made construct and contains no truth that is not offensive to you? Genuine question. Because what I'm reading here is leading me to believe that there are some people that think it is never ok to express such opinions because the belief itself is offensive by its very nature.

You can't say it-plain and simple. You can't challenge bible belief, organized religion, or Christianity and not get heck for it. THAT much I have learned in my time on this board.:glare:

[leeannpal]

Hear, hear. (I speak as a Christian who is tired of having my faith defined only by the face of conservative Christianity in this country.)

:iagree:

[Joy at Home]

I find it ironic that if someone says they believe that religion is a man-made construct to help control the masses it is considered insulting, mocking, offensive, etc. but if a Christian says the person simply needs to accept Jesus to know the Truth, that is somehow *not* condescending or insulting. Either it's all out-of-bounds and rude, or it isn't. Either people can voice their personal opinions freely, or they can't.

 

For the record, I don't mind people saying they think I need to be saved (though I disagree), or that they don't believe in any religion (doesn't describe my beliefs either). People are allowed to think whatever they want to think; it matters not to me.

 

I just want to be clear, because I'm one of the people who addressed that on the other thread... My point was not that we should all go around insulting others' religions, but rather that we should understand that we get to choose whether or not we find things insulting. In that specific instance, no one was directing comments at anyone specifically; they were stating a belief that you happen to disagree with. People state things here all the time that I disagree with, and I get to choose whether or not I am going to get in a huff about that stuff or just brush it off as a difference of opinion. It's only personal when we make it personal.

 

I think telling an atheist they need to accept Jesus IS insulting. Mmy religion is personal to me and I dont preach to anyone. I simply want the same courtesy. I am not personally offended at all. I just dont think its helpful at all to denigrate either side at all on such a hot button issue as religion. Sure there is a place for deep discussion and debvate about religion,, and anyone truly wanting to have those conversations can start a thread. But i think people pretty much know where they fall on the religious spectrum and if they choose to dropcomments like mind control and organized religion is a crock, fine. But then dont play the "who, me?" card when someone objects.

 

Lisa

[kchara]

I think telling an atheist they need to accept Jesus IS insulting. Mmy religion is personal to me and I dont preach to anyone. I simply want the same courtesy. I am not personally offended at all. I just dont think its helpful at all to denigrate either side at all on such a hot button issue as religion. Sure there is a place for deep discussion and debvate about religion,, and anyone truly wanting to have those conversations can start a thread. But i think people pretty much know where they fall on the religious spectrum and if they choose to dropcomments like mind control and organized religion is a crock, fine. But then dont play the "who, me?" card when someone objects.

 

Lisa

:iagree:

[WishboneDawn]

?? I think Dawn was expressing her disagreement with an earlier comment that there is a way to express that specific belief without causing offense.

 

So maybe someone could let us know how it would be possible to express the idea that all religion is a man-made construct and contains no truth that is not offensive to you? Genuine question. Because what I'm reading here is leading me to believe that there are some people that think it is never ok to express such opinions because the belief itself is offensive by its very nature.

 

Thank you Melanie. I was at a loss as to how to respond to that comment.

[Joy at Home]

You can't say it-plain and simple. You can't challenge bible belief, organized religion, or Christianity and not get heck for it. THAT much I have learned in my time on this board.:glare:

 

Exactly my point, though. Why challenge anything? Live and let live, anyone?

 

Now, that works both ways, yes. If someone tells you youre a sinner and to accept Christ, theyve crossed a line. But i guess im enough of a realist to know there really is nothing good to come about questioning others religion on all sides, so why go there at all.

 

Typing on ipod, sorry for grammar.

 

Lisa

[MelanieM]

I think telling an atheist they need to accept Jesus IS insulting. Mmy religion is personal to me and I dont preach to anyone. I simply want the same courtesy. I am not personally offended at all. I just dont think its helpful at all to denigrate either side at all on such a hot button issue as religion. Sure there is a place for deep discussion and debvate about religion,, and anyone truly wanting to have those conversations can start a thread. But i think people pretty much know where they fall on the religious spectrum and if they choose to dropcomments like mind control and organized religion is a crock, fine. But then dont play the "who, me?" card when someone objects.

 

Lisa

 

I hear you. And honestly, if this were about a personal thread where someone was directing a comment at another person, then I would understand the inappropriateness of it. But what I don't understand is why it is a problem, on a general thread, to express a personal opinion about the subject of discussion.

[KarenNC]

When I live in a town where the local newspaper does a Bible giveaway, publishes the daily verse and prayer in Jesus' name on the second page in the news section, runs Billy Graham daily and other pastors' columns weekly, the local high schools all have Bible clubs that meet on campus, the town council opens with a specific prayer in Jesus' name to guide them in their decisions and the mayor campaigns on a platform of Christianity (uses a cross instead of a "T" in his first name on campaign signs and cites his prayer breakfast where he conducts town business as one of his great accomplishments), I have a hard time seeing Christianity as "threatened" or "discriminated against" in any way. The mayor even tried soliciting donations through the water bill for a specific Christian charity that focuses on proselytization in Haiti, but there was enough pushback on that one that he got, basically, a stern look :rolleyes:, which, yes, I heard some locals characterize as persecution of Christians.

 

When I see that the country has a federal holiday for Christmas, every media outlet/store/etc inundates us with things related to Christian holidays, I find a Christian Bible (and, except for San Francisco, only that) in every hotel room, and I can't count the number of churches in our area (all of which receive public subsidies by not having to pay taxes), I don't see Christianity as in danger of being stamped out.

 

When I see Bibles and other Christian-specific books available in every bookstore and library, multiple Christian bookstores, multiple Christian radio/tv channels, drive by Operation Save America groups with their posters at the local mall, get mass mailings from churches and crusades, find Jack Chick tracts and other Christian flyers all over local businesses, stuffed under my windshield wiper, in my takeout bag from Arby's, in my child's Halloween bag and covertly stuffed in the children's activity bags at our Unitarian Universalist Church (we assume it was someone attending an activity by renter at the church), I have trouble believing that any Christian could feel they are being muzzled in some way.

Edited May 24, 2011 by KarenNC

[nmoira]

Exactly my point, though. Why challenge anything? Live and let live, anyone?

 

Now, that works both ways, yes. If someone tells you youre a sinner and to accept Christ, theyve crossed a line. But i guess im enough of a realist to know there really is nothing good to come about questioning others religion on all sides, so why go there at all.

 

Typing on ipod, sorry for grammar.

 

Lisa

But how is an atheist stating their opinion that religion is a man-made construct different than a Christian stating (for example) they believe there is no salvation without accepting Jesus? I'm not talking about proselytizing, just a statement. The only difference I see is the initial premise.

[Denise in Florida]

Hear, hear. (I speak as a Christian who is tired of having my faith defined only by the face of conservative Christianity in this country.)

:iagree::iagree: I live in a very conservative part of the country. I am a Christian, I have a deep and meaningful faith. Yet I see the damage (that is the best description) that has been done to some of my friends in the name of religion. It makes me hurt for the them, but it also makes me want to say 'this does not honor or glorify Christ's name, please call yourselves something else'.

[Joy at Home]

?? I think Dawn was expressing her disagreement with an earlier comment that there is a way to express that specific belief without causing offense.

 

So maybe someone could let us know how it would be possible to express the idea that all religion is a man-made construct and contains no truth that is not offensive to you? Genuine question. Because what I'm reading here is leading me to believe that there are some people that think it is never ok to express such opinions because the belief itself is offensive by its very nature.

 

I feel like im stating the obvious here. We all have "opinions". My point is whats the motive behind sharing such an opinion? Not to say there may not be a time and place, but i think we all know the dominoe effect of deciding to state that opinion. Its not the view that offends, its the venue. It just begs a response and before you know it we all start defending our views which, to me, is not fruitful. We all think our own view is right.

[nmoira]

Thank you for the many thoughtful responses received thus far. These and the ensuing discussions have made for some interesting reading.

[mommaduck]

:iagree::iagree: I live in a very conservative part of the country. I am a Christian, I have a deep and meaningful faith. Yet I see the damage (that is the best description) that has been done to some of my friends in the name of religion. It makes me hurt for the them, but it also makes me want to say 'this does not honor or glorify Christ's name, please call yourselves something else'.

 

Basically, there are areas of the country where people are either very religious, or very much of a certain type of religion AND there are areas where people are very secular. In either extreme, the other can come "attack" in one manner or another (I've seen it both directions...from my being treated horribly for my religious practices to others being treated horribly for not being the mainstream religion of a particular area). (I like living in a mixed area where people just respect each other and leave each other alone without treating the other like they have the plague)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Wow. Are you serious? How in the world is it okay for you but not them? :001_huh:

 

And furthermore, I don't get that they are trying to "convince" anyone (as you claim you feel the right to do), but rather stating their own feelings. I mean, it *is* faith, after all, isn't it?

 

And, I'm saying this all being a Christian for 30+ years, and wondering how I feel about things now. This sort of thinking, seriously, scares me away. Just so you know. And I know I'm not the only one.

 

:iagree: It is very disturbing to me, for example, when I hear of Christians want to save Buddhists:001_huh:. I see the Buddha and Jesus as spiritual brothers so to speak. I think it is outrageous that some Christians would want Buddhism and other religions to go away so that they can be saved from themselves:glare:. I believe there are many paths to the godhead:001_smile:

 

This is not to say that some religions IMHO are are really off the mark and just wrong such as any that would embrace evil or the mistreatment of others:tongue_smilie:

[Lady Florida.]

Exactly my point, though. Why challenge anything? Live and let live, anyone?

 

It's okay to not believe as long as you "shut up and be a good little atheist?" I *know* that's not what you personally are saying, as evidenced by more of your post quoted below. However, that's the message we atheists get every time we try to speak up about our non-belief. I, frankly, am tired of it and have decided not to take it quietly anymore.

 

Now, that works both ways, yes. If someone tells you youre a sinner and to accept Christ, theyve crossed a line.

The problem is, this won't go away. Since many Christians believe they are to spread the message and try to save others, they will continue to proselytize, especially at non-believers. The non-believers can either shut up and take it, or respond. Many of us choose to respond. If we don't, things will never change.

[WishboneDawn]

...and organized religion is a crock, fine. But then dont play the "who, me?" card when someone objects.

 

Lisa

 

:confused: I wasn't saying religion IS a crock, I was saying that I wasn't sure there was a way to express that without offending some people. Melanie threw you a life line there...

 

I'm a Christian who happens to think organized religion is a pretty neat thing. I just understand that some people think it's a crock, am not particularly offended by that view and am at a loss as to how they'd express it without sending some people off the deep end.

 

Ah well, take offense if you wish.

 

ETA: NM. I'm just going to settle for banging my head on my desk.

Edited May 24, 2011 by WishboneDawn

[Joy at Home]

But how is an atheist stating their opinion that religion is a man-made construct different than a Christian stating (for example) they believe there is no salvation without accepting Jesus? I'm not talking about proselytizing, just a statement. The only difference I see is the initial premise.

 

I guess we all need to decide for ourselves what purpose sharing our views serves. Religion is just one of those issues i always tread lightly on, especially on an open forum with diverse views. Of course as a Christian i believe in salvation through Christ alone, and as an atheist one would consider that bunk. So my point is, why go there at all?

[nmoira]

 

I feel like im stating the obvious here. We all have "opinions". My point is whats the motive behind sharing such an opinion?

My reading of the initial comment in the Camping thread was of someone stating her option about the topic under discussion (in no stronger language than had been used elsewhere in the thread) and saying, essentially, "Take what I say with a grain of salt because I think it's all a crock anyway." I think that is relevant.