Another WWYD thread - kids, parents, and groups

[Dobela]

There is a homeschooling family here that has just about turned everyone off over the past 5 years or so. The mom and dad are very intelligent, well educated, interesting people. By themselves. They have 6 children and their philosophy in raising them is pretty much no discipline. Or over discipline. No middle ground. They feel that if fitting into society is important to the kid,then the kid will learn to adjust to situations on their own. Yeah, that just means they want the other parents to correct their children. They are well known over the community and give homeschool a very bad name. The oldest is about 12 and is thought to have Aspergers. No, they don't do any therapies or anything else with him. The children are often dirty, unkempt (as in may go months without haircuts, wearing stained mismatched clothing that doesn't fit), and so on. CPS has been called in, as has family, but this just continues and continues.

 

Over the years pretty much any group the family joins has disbanded or reorganized in another way as to keep them out (they are not Christian so the group may suddenly become very religious in tone for example). Businesses have been known to ask them to leave during field trips due to behaviors and disrespect. A couple of places that have regular functions have openly stated the kids can't join. At the library I have seen parents remove their kids from free activities if any child from this family signs up for it. At a recent event the oldest seriously injured a sibling - just because. The mom finds it interesting that they always seem to 'join groups just before the decline'.

 

When we moved, we have made it a point to NOT tell them where we live. Where we lived before they would just appear and it would take me forever to get the kids rounded up and get the mom to take them home. NOw the kids and the mom are very openly asking for invitations to our home.

 

My son can't stand being around the kids anymore. Mostly due to the oldest child. He asked to leave one 4H group and refuses to participate in other activities if he knows in advance the children will be there. Well, we found out yesterday that the mom has decided the old 4H group is not working for them and has been invited to our group. Or should I say she knows who our leader is thru Freecycle and asked for a time to come visit the group.

 

My son is now saying he will drop out of 4H again - and he LOVES 4H. He has fit in very well with the new group. I hate to see him drop out because of this family. But honestly, I don't like being around them either. The thought of spending 2-3 hours with them for a meeting just gievs me a headache.

 

Should I say anything to the 4H leader? Should I suggest she contact the former leaders for advice? So I let her know that my son is wanting to drop out of 4H because of this family? This 4H leader only knows the family thru freecycle and I am sure has no idea what they are really like beyond drop off and pick ups.

[Julie Smith]

What a hard situation to be in. :grouphug:

[jewellsmommy]

:grouphug: What a hard situation. I know it seems unfair, but can your ds go to the 4h group that this other family is leaving? I don't think there is a way to prevent them from joining your current group.

[lionfamily1999]

Maybe you should just tell this lady what's up. She wants to know why groups go into decline when they join, that seems like an invitation for you to tell her what's going on. The next time she calls you could just say, your kids are out of control and smell bad, we don't want you here.

 

It might not change anything. She may just think you're a jerk. At the same time, if someone told me that, I would NOT follow them to another 4h group. Iow, it's a win-win. You get it off your chest and she either hates you (so leaves you alone) or changes.

[kchara]

:grouphug: Wow, what a hard situation.

[Murphy101]

It depends how well you know the 4-H leader.

If I knew her well and were friends, not just aquiantances, I would tell her I'm not going to go into gossipy details but your family has had enough unpleasantness from that family and your family will be leaving 4-H rather than endure more headaches if they join.

 

As for this lady asking for invitations.

You need to just tell her no and be done with them.

[Murphy101]

Maybe you should just tell this lady what's up. She wants to know why groups go into decline when they join, that seems like an invitation for you to tell her what's going on. The next time she calls you could just say, your kids are out of control and smell bad, we don't want you here.

 

It might not change anything. She may just think you're a jerk. At the same time, if someone told me that, I would NOT follow them to another 4h group. Iow, it's a win-win. You get it off your chest and she either hates you (so leaves you alone) or changes.

 

Yes. This too. I'm blunt enough that I'd correct them if they brought it up. "You know, the only thing all of that has in common is you. If you don't want to follow common basic parenting/social manners, that's your choice, but it makes your company and involvement unpleasant and people tend to avoid the unpleasant. Those groups didn't decline. They reformed to avoid dealing with unpleasantness and I can't blame them."

[Sophia]

 

Should I say anything to the 4H leader? Should I suggest she contact the former leaders for advice? So I let her know that my son is wanting to drop out of 4H because of this family? This 4H leader only knows the family thru freecycle and I am sure has no idea what they are really like beyond drop off and pick ups.

 

Whether or not I spoke up would depend on:

1)How well I knew the leader, and 2)how I thought the leader would respond.

If the leader is assertive and someone who would protect the group, then yes, I would say something so he/she could be prepared and let behavioral expectations be known right away.

If the leader is more passive, I'd probably get ready to leave the club.

[Dobela]

Thanks for all the help working thru this.

It depends how well you know the 4-H leader.

If I knew her well and were friends, not just aquiantances, I would tell her I'm not going to go into gossipy details but your family has had enough unpleasantness from that family and your family will be leaving 4-H rather than endure more headaches if they join. I know her well enough, although we rarely spend time together IRL. We have moderated groups together and such. A part of me really feels she needs a warning of what is coming. A part of me feels what is the use.

 

As for this lady asking for invitations.

You need to just tell her no and be done with them.Oh Believe me,I do just say no. And very specifically. I have told the children in front of her that they may not come to my house because they do not follow any of my rules or respect my house and my belongings. It doesn't seem to phase them.

 

And I am not the only parent that has done this. Either the parents don't care, or they don't get it.

 

[/QUOTE]

[Remudamom]

Oh yeah. I'd tell her you didn't want anymore to do with her and her children and then I'd tell her why. And let her know if she wants to be included she needs to get her crew in shape.

 

I think I'd say something to the 4H leader, she can tell them to behave, come clean or they will be asked to leave.

[lionfamily1999]

Yes. This too. I'm blunt enough that I'd correct them if they brought it up. "You know, the only thing all of that has in common is you. If you don't want to follow common basic parenting/social manners, that's your choice, but it makes your company and involvement unpleasant and people tend to avoid the unpleasant. Those groups didn't decline. They reformed to avoid dealing with unpleasantness and I can't blame them."

I think it's kinder to do it this way than to continue the undercover black listing of the family. If they knew, at least they could reform. I mean, they want to do this great social experiment with their kids' lives, but no one is actually telling them the results (you failed!!!! No one likes you!!!!). Ignorance is bliss till you realize you're all alone.

[Murphy101]

I'm not sure I understand. So you tell them they can't come over and they show up anyways? So you tell them no again and shut the door? And they ? Sit in the driveway?:001_huh:

[Dobela]

Whether or not I spoke up would depend on:

1)How well I knew the leader, and 2)how I thought the leader would respond.

If the leader is assertive and someone who would protect the group, then yes, I would say something so he/she could be prepared and let behavioral expectations be known right away.

If the leader is more passive, I'd probably get ready to leave the club.

My gut reaction is to tell the leader. She is pretty strict with her own kids and has good boundaries. She is a fairly new leader for 4H though having recently taken over the group when the last leader moved.

 

I just hate conflict either way and this feels like conflict.

[Impish]

I'd be horribly blunt with the parents at this point. "No, you may not come over. Ever. Do not ask again."

 

As for the 4H...tough one. I think I would mention something about the past history, the decline of the groups, b/c I wouldn't want the leader unprepared. I wouldn't expect her to prohibit them joining, but if issues arise, she would be aware of what to look for, and ask them to leave quickly.

[Dobela]

I'm not sure I understand. So you tell them they can't come over and they show up anyways? So you tell them no again and shut the door? And they ? Sit in the driveway?:001_huh:

No, she stops and the kids just jump out of the van. Sometimes they are falling out before she stops because they are so anxious to play at our house (or so she says). The kids then start running all over the yard, playing on our swings, riding any bikes/skateboards/scooters left out, and so on. I have said we can't play, ask them to leave and they don't without lots of me saying they have to stop riding the bike, put it back on the porch, get into your own van, and such. The mom will stand there and try to have a conversation with me about nothing even related to what the kids are doing and never ask the kids to get in the van, put up the toys or stop playing.

 

Once we left almost immediately thinking they would just go away as well but they didn't leave. They asked how long we would be gone and if it was ok for them to wait there for us. :001_huh::glare:

[joannqn]

Be blunt to the parents about you desire for them to stay away from you and your family and why.

 

I would also tell the 4H leader what's up. She needs to know why your son may be dropping out and that her group may disintegrate.

[RachelFlores]

Thanks for all the help working thru this.

I know her well enough, although we rarely spend time together IRL. We have moderated groups together and such. A part of me really feels she needs a warning of what is coming. A part of me feels what is the use.

 

As for this lady asking for invitations.

You need to just tell her no and be done with them.Oh Believe me,I do just say no. And very specifically. I have told the children in front of her that they may not come to my house because they do not follow any of my rules or respect my house and my belongings. It doesn't seem to phase them.

 

And I am not the only parent that has done this. Either the parents don't care, or they don't get it.

 

[/QUOTE]

 

Wow, just wow. You tell her and her children they can't come over and why and she still asks???? She apparently needs a seriously blunt conversation. "Your children do not obey my house rules and they will never be allowed in my house because of that. The do not show respect to myself, my children or our things. You are doing them a diservice not teaching them disipline and respect for others." If the calls continued, I would block their number.

 

I would also warn the leader. If a family is not willing to show basic levels of respect for others and teach their kids how to do this, they should not be part of a group. It is beyond me how these parents think this is ok.

[joannqn]

No, she stops and the kids just jump out of the van. Sometimes they are falling out before she stops because they are so anxious to play at our house (or so she says). The kids then start running all over the yard, playing on our swings, riding any bikes/skateboards/scooters left out, and so on. I have said we can't play, ask them to leave and they don't without lots of me saying they have to stop riding the bike, put it back on the porch, get into your own van, and such. The mom will stand there and try to have a conversation with me about nothing even related to what the kids are doing and never ask the kids to get in the van, put up the toys or stop playing.

 

Once we left almost immediately thinking they would just go away as well but they didn't leave. They asked how long we would be gone and if it was ok for them to wait there for us. :001_huh::glare:

 

Wow! That's just...weird. Maybe it's time to pull out, "Please leave now. If you do not, I will call the police and have you removed from my property."

[Impish]

Wow! That's just...weird. Maybe it's time to pull out, "Please leave now. If you do not, I will call the police and have you removed from my property."

:iagree:

[Murphy101]

No, she stops and the kids just jump out of the van. Sometimes they are falling out before she stops because they are so anxious to play at our house (or so she says). The kids then start running all over the yard, playing on our swings, riding any bikes/skateboards/scooters left out, and so on. I have said we can't play, ask them to leave and they don't without lots of me saying they have to stop riding the bike, put it back on the porch, get into your own van, and such. The mom will stand there and try to have a conversation with me about nothing even related to what the kids are doing and never ask the kids to get in the van, put up the toys or stop playing.

 

Once we left almost immediately thinking they would just go away as well but they didn't leave. They asked how long we would be gone and if it was ok for them to wait there for us. :001_huh::glare:

 

Okay, you are being too nice.

 

I'd tell her point blank, "I do not want to talk I said I do not want to visit. Get your kids in your van right now and leave or I will call the police. Do not call me or come over again."

 

I'd probably yell it at her because she sounds completely nutters.

 

I mean, I have a pretty thick noggin, but I comprehend NO and GO fairly well.

 

That family has restraining order written all over them.

[Carol in Cal.]

We knew a family like this. They were the kind who gave unschooling a bad name. I feel for you.

[Sophia]

 

Once we left almost immediately thinking they would just go away as well but they didn't leave. They asked how long we would be gone and if it was ok for them to wait there for us. :001_huh::glare:

 

I understand you hate conflict, but in all fairness, I think you do need to warn your new 4H leader.

[Dobela]

We knew a family like this. They were the kind who gave unschooling a bad name. I feel for you.

Yes, this is a family of unschoolers too. I think they give homeschoolers in general a very bad name.

[QuirkyKapers]

Have they found out where you have moved too and our continuing this behavior?

[Trish]

:grouphug: What a hard situation. I know it seems unfair, but can your ds go to the 4h group that this other family is leaving? I don't think there is a way to prevent them from joining your current group.

 

Shouldn't the leader at least be warned that her own group may be destroyed? I wouldn't put it in those terms, of course, but advising her to speak to the previous 4H letter "for background" seems like a good idea. If I were that leader I wouldn't want to be totally blindsided by this family.

[secular_mom]

Yes, this is a family of unschoolers too. I think they give homeschoolers in general a very bad name.

I would just tell the parents, "You're children behave horribly and make all the other kids miserable- my children don't want to participate in ANY activity if they know that any of your children will be participating in it, and I know that several other families avoid activities if your children are involved. It is NOT okay for your children to run amok making all the other children miserable. I understand that you don't want to make your children follow what you deem as arbitrary rules, HOWEVER, you do need to ask your children to control themselves and NOT use someone else's property without the owners permission, invade the personal space of other people, disrupt activities/classes with their bad behavior, etc. It is NOT okay for you to show up at another persons home and dump your kids onto their property without their permission. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this. All the groups you have joined have regrouped in a way to exclude your family because your children are absolutely horrid and NO ONE wants to be around them. Most people would rather miss out on an otherwise pleasant experience than participate and put up with the horror that is your brood." It is up to the parents to decide what do to do with that information.

Seriously. I would be sick and tired of running from the family. I would talk to the 4-H leader and tell her what's up, and tell her that she has my support and needs to be VERY firm and VERY strict if this family joins the group. There need to be hard and fast rules that are firmly and forcefully implemented each and EVERY time one of those kids mucks about. She needs to be prepared to call the parents and tell them to come and get their children and remove them from the premises as they are disrupting the activity and are no longer welcome there. It's sad that such behavior has gone on for so long with no one pointing out the obvious. It's not fair to your children for them to miss out because of an unruly bunch of kids. It's not fair to any of the other kids. I think I'd have to tell the parents off and mention that while they may be using their children for a social experiment they do NOT have my permission to use my children in such an experiment.

I am an unschooler, somewhat radical, that does not mean that I don't guide my children by pointing out the obvious and telling them that there are rules that have to be followed if they want to participate in an activity, and there are social norms to follow if they want others to like them and invite them back. Obviously these kids aren't picking up on any of that, and it needs to be pointed out. Neglect is not a social experiment, it's laziness and ignorance.

[texasmama]

I was in a similar position with a co op we are involved in. A family wanted to join and asked me for the information. I knew it would not be a good fit so I told her (truthfully) that the group was very hard to get into and referred her to another group close by. I also slipped the leader of the group a little note with the name of the family. I had mixed feelings about this and did have some guilt, but in the end, it felt like the most appropriate thing to do to protect the co op we had and also to not have the other family have a negative experience and risk being asked to leave. The leader appreciated it and kept the information private. The family ended up at the other co op.

[Dobela]

Have they found out where you have moved too and our continuing this behavior?

They do not know where we live. They keep hitting me up for invites when we run across them and I just say no. The mom heard me telling about a shed we built on our property and said she was looking forward to seeing it in person. I told her to just watch for the pictures on FB.

[Dobela]

Shouldn't the leader at least be warned that her own group may be destroyed? I wouldn't put it in those terms, of course, but advising her to speak to the previous 4H letter "for background" seems like a good idea. If I were that leader I wouldn't want to be totally blindsided by this family.

I emailed the leader and gave her some background information and let her know my son was upset. I also said thatwe would still be attending her group because it is the best fit for us at this time. I really don't want to change groups. I am also hoping that the rest of the 4H group will turn off this family. They are for the most part very pro public school, very strong religiously, and very conservative in other views.

[Murphy101]

They do not know where we live. They keep hitting me up for invites when we run across them and I just say no. The mom heard me telling about a shed we built on our property and said she was looking forward to seeing it in person. I told her to just watch for the pictures on FB.

 

What the heck are you thinking having them friended on FB?!:blink:

Unfriend! Delete! Pronto!

[Dobela]

What the heck are you thinking having them friended on FB?!:blink:

Unfriend! Delete! Pronto!

I have 2 accounts LOL and she is on the vague one. I do it so I can more or less keep up with her. And I am not the only family in town that does it. I guess you could say it is like watching a train wreck. Or avoiding one. She is very prolific in announcing what her family is doing, or going to do. I also did this before I was fully aware of how the family functioned. We also have many mutual acquantainces so I 'see her' frequently there any way.

[Parrothead]

No, she stops and the kids just jump out of the van. Sometimes they are falling out before she stops because they are so anxious to play at our house (or so she says). The kids then start running all over the yard, playing on our swings, riding any bikes/skateboards/scooters left out, and so on. I have said we can't play, ask them to leave and they don't without lots of me saying they have to stop riding the bike, put it back on the porch, get into your own van, and such. The mom will stand there and try to have a conversation with me about nothing even related to what the kids are doing and never ask the kids to get in the van, put up the toys or stop playing.

 

Once we left almost immediately thinking they would just go away as well but they didn't leave. They asked how long we would be gone and if it was ok for them to wait there for us. :001_huh::glare:

I'd call the cops for trespassing.

[LostSurprise]

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to ask the 4-H leader what kind of rules are involved with student/parent behavior and how they deal with parents who don't control their children/children who don't listen to instructions?

 

If there are no rules, and it's an open group, there isn't much you can do (nor should you...imagine if public groups only let people they liked in), but if there are conduct rules a simple 'this is what I've seen with this family and what they've done in other groups' would be appropriate. The leader could use the heads up to prepare.

[QueenCat]

Wow! I would tell the 4H leader your concerns. Please know that not all children with Aspergers are ill behaved in the way you describe. Mine knows not to be disrespectful to others or their property.

[Murphy101]

I have 2 accounts LOL and she is on the vague one. I do it so I can more or less keep up with her. And I am not the only family in town that does it. I guess you could say it is like watching a train wreck. Or avoiding one. She is very prolific in announcing what her family is doing, or going to do. I also did this before I was fully aware of how the family functioned. We also have many mutual acquantainces so I 'see her' frequently there any way.

 

Ohhhh. I see.:)

[Dobela]

Wow! I would tell the 4H leader your concerns. Please know that not all children with Aspergers are ill behaved in the way you describe. Mine knows not to be disrespectful to others or their property.

My brother is on the spectrum as well and this behavior would never be tolerated. And as a relaxed homeschooler I know that not all unschoolers or relaxed homeschoolers behave this way. The behavior of the children is, IMO, as someone else stated - Laziness on the part of the parent.

 

I have contacted the 4H leader and we have actually been having a lengthy conversation online today about it. She said that the mom has pretty much said she won't be moving permanently to our group as the drive is too far. The leader thanks me for my candor and says she will stay on top of it from the beginning in case they do come.

[Carol in Cal.]

You know, I am not sure it's laziness, although that certainly can be an element of it.

 

I think it is a radical and tragic extension of two pretty good ideas--unschooling and attachment parenting. Unschooling argues that children will learn what they want and need to learn when they want and need to learn it, and parents are to find them opportunities and provide an enriched environment that triggers that learning. Attachment parenting calls for tremendous responsiveness to babies, particularly nurslings.

 

The self-control needed to pull back and let things happen that way and to serve the children's expressed desires can lead, in this case basically pathologically, to an utter servitude to the children, coupled with a tremendously sanctimonious martyrish attitude toward other, less enlightened parents. Basically these people have abdicated their jobs as parents, opting instead for a job as a facilitator/servant, and have made the decision to view that as virtuous. That's why whenever they come over they talk about their children's desire to visit being so strong--because that is the ONLY thing that they think should matter to parents. I've known people like this, and they are tremendously annoying and selfish. They also do their children a great disservice by not teaching them anything proactively, including basic hygiene and common courtesy. Their poor children are spoiled, smelly, and almost feral. It's really disgraceful.

 

Having said that, there are a lot of other unschoolers I know who have done a brilliant job with their children. It's this borderline pathological 'unparenting' that is so damaging.

 

Tough, tough situation. I agree that you have to be very clear and firm and basically rude. And I hardly ever say that, but after reading your posts it's clear to me that only that level of bluntness has any chance whatsoever of success. If you like the mom or feel some moral obligation to the family, you should get her alone sometime and really let her know what you have observed and what the longterm implications are of taking this tack.

[kalanamak]

My gut reaction is to tell the leader. She is pretty strict with her own kids and has good boundaries. She is a fairly new leader for 4H though having recently taken over the group when the last leader moved.

 

I just hate conflict either way and this feels like conflict.

 

:grouphug: It sounds awful. Those poor kids. I'd be hiding and avoiding, too.