If you were a Christian, and then stopped being a Christian how old were you?

[Tea Time]

I was about 21-22, and it was the people, not the doctrine that led me to turn away. I reflected on my experiences with many of the Christians in my life and decided I could no longer continue that path:

1. My questions were dismissed. Yes, lots of that in PS.

2. As a child, my confidence in a church leader was betrayed (a secret passed around the church that wouldn't have mattered except that I was painfully shy). My kindergarten teacher humiliated me in front of the whole class. I was so distressed I broke out all over in hives.

3. I was told that my brother with Downs syndrome would go to hell because he was not mentally capable of accepting Christ as savior.

4. As a child, my family was looked down on by members of the church because I was being raised only by my mother (my father died when I was young). I was looked down on because I was exceptionally small and on the young side. My first grade teacher, when my mother asked why she wasn't teaching me to read, said, "She is just so small."

5. I was sexually abused by two men who claimed to be Christian. A woman I know was systematically sexually harassed for 4 straight years so she could keep her job. She worked at the school under a state grant, and the administrator who approved grants made her "work" for them KWIM. Seems like she should have been able to stop it, but there were good reasons why she couldn't. A friend of a friend was sexually involved with a teacher for some time, too.

6. When I was twenty, I was not allowed to attend events for the women of the church (shopping trips, weekend away) because I was not married. I was inducted into the National Junior Honor Society in the 7th grade and was promptly ignored and mocked by the other members at the events and meetings.

 

As I looked back on all of this, I no longer felt that I fit.

 

You know, this very much parallels my experience with public education. Lots of very bad things happening to me and an assortment of other people I knew. There were too many awful things over too many years to ignore. I came to the conclusion that the whole system was jacked.

 

People are just awful, aren't they? :glare:

[Mergath]

I stopped considering myself a Christian in my teens, though it was a long, back-and-forth process.

 

I found Paganism when I was around fourteen, after having been raised in an apathetically Christian family. It made so much more sense to me than anything I'd encountered in church, so I began to study it more, and eventually began to consider myself a Pagan.

 

When I was fifteen or sixteen, I decided I wanted to go back to church again, more because all my friends were. I went to youth group, got in trouble for wearing a tank top, got in trouble for questioning the idea that knights killed off all the dinosaurs, just generally got in trouble over everything. Then, when I was at my best friend's house, her parents told me it didn't matter that I was going back to church. Since I'd been a Christian, and then tried a different religion, I was now going to hell no matter what I did. There was much reference made to the "unforgivable sin."

 

So a period of maybe six months followed where I freaked out, convinced I was going to hell. I prayed like crazy, read the bible from cover to cover, talked to pastors, and generally begged God to let me know if I was a Christian, one of his children, etc. Nada. No response. Every pastor I talked to, and showed the verses I'd found that made me nervous, said, "Gosh, I don't remember seeing that in there before. I don't think you're going to hell, but only God knows. I just don't know." Apparently I was raising theological questions they'd never even considered before.

 

Finally, after months of misery, I realized I was making myself insane over nothing, since the *only* reason I was even trying to be Christian was my fear of hell, and Paganism was what I believed in my heart to be true anyway. Over the years I've incorporated some Buddhist tenets into my faith, and, well, here I am. :)

[Onceuponatime]

I tend to think so too. I tend to think it would be more of an "experiential" event, not necessarily rationality that would get them there (to theism or deism, I mean). But, I could be wrong.

 

I know someone who used to be a die-hard atheist and became a Christian through his own reasoning. I used to respect him tremendously. He doesn't tow the fundamentalist line and does seminars and writes articles on how poor science and poor theology cause problems.

 

A few months ago, I sent him an e-mail asking a very pointed question about intellectual honesty concerning a certain issue. He told me it wasn't important. That floored me. How could it not be important if people assumed something that wasn't necessarily so and if they taught their children something that might not be right? He would not admit that this was an issue that needed consideration. Two months later, I realized he had removed me from his mailing list. :confused:

 

I am in deep questioning mode right now. I am still a believer, but I'm not sure exactly what I believe any more.

[justamouse]

I'm specifically interested in people who considered themselves an actual Christian, not just undecided. Poll to follow.

 

(While I personally believe a doctrine called eternal security, I am not invoking that for this poll because I want what people think about their own experience.)

 

ETA - some people might want to know why I want to know. I was simply thinking about how my own thinking has changed over the years - sometimes dramatically - and wondered when a dramatic change like this might occur in people's lives.

 

 

I didn't answer the poll.

 

I don't think I ever stopped being a Christian, but there was a time I threw everything but the concept of God out to the curb and happily left it there for 10 years. Then I ended up slowing working myself back from that. Is that what you are looking for?

Edited March 31, 2011 by justamouse

[Jean in Newcastle]

I didn't answer the poll.

 

I don't think I ever stopped being a Christian, but there was a time I threw everything but the concept of God out to the curb and happily left it there. Then I ended up slowing working myself back from that. Is that what you are looking for?

 

I'm not really looking for anything specific! Whatever is your experience is great.

[Aubrey]

I didn't see where Christians were forbidden to take part.

 

Awe, come on, Imp. These are really personal, often painful stories. So many people talk about walking away because their faith was betrayed *as children.* I bet there are plenty of others who *didn't* share because they were afraid of "the sermon."

 

Imagine a thread asking for proposal stories & somebody coming in & saying your dh's proposal wasn't good enough, your marriage won't last, etc. Or it didn't last because you didn't *mean* your wedding vows.

 

I don't know. It's easy to put a foot in a mouth--I do it all the time. But at least if someone shouts, "OUCH!" maybe we should pull our feet out of their mouths, pick up their teeth, & I don't know. Apologize or hush or something. Get them some water to rinse out the blood.

 

It's really, really hard to imagine how hard it is to be a not-Christian in this society. Shoot. There's not even a word for it.

[Joanne]

Denial is easier to stomach than accepting that real belief can evaporate.

 

And my 43 years on earth have convinced me that 1) the odds of any god existing are very slim, and 2) the idea of a christian god answering ANY prayer I can ask about my puny life while children starve to death tells me that such a god is highly immoral and not worth acknowledging let alone worshiping.

 

[ATTACH]4881[/ATTACH]Please click for full effect.

 

If people want to tell us why they believe in a thread about why people don't, so be it. But I'd like to share one reason why I don't in response.

 

Geek,

 

Pardon me, but I believe I qualify to particpate in this thread. I'm feeling a bit frustrated that you've taken my response to particulars in this thread and framed it negatively.

 

I am fiercely supportive of a variety of beliefs, including "none".

 

The only faith I can't support is *exclusive* minded.

 

The question wasn't "don't believe". It was about not being a Christian anymore.

[Geek]

Geek,

 

Pardon me, but I believe I qualify to particpate in this thread. I'm feeling a bit frustrated that you've taken my response to particulars in this thread and framed it negatively.

 

I am fiercely supportive of a variety of beliefs, including "none".

 

The only faith I can't support is *exclusive* minded.

 

The question wasn't "don't believe". It was about not being a Christian anymore.

Look, if I've overstepped my boundaries, I do apologize.

[SEP]

whoa. i cannot believe I actually took the time to read all of those posts.

 

i'm sure i'll be ripped apart.

 

the things that stood out to me is how sad the experiences are that people had from others calling themselves Christians.

 

It happens. Before I was 'saved/born again' I still called myself a 'Christian'. I called myself a Christian because I was raised Catholic, I believed in Christ, etc... but had very little Bible knowledge and had never turned my life over to Christ. I did however go through the hoops of Catholicism without ever developing a relationship with Christ fairly easily. I had the 'head' knowledge, but not the heart knowledge.

 

When I was a "Christian" before I was actually a Christian, I would probably have been a total turd to someone as well.

 

Shoot, right now, at my church we have some crappy people who may or may not be saved because they do not exhibit the love of Christ to others, as discussed in the Bible. Only the Lord knows if someone is a Christian. The Bible discusses key behaviors, "Fruits of the Spirit" that should be evident if someone is saved. If those behaviors are never there, it does make you wonder.

 

Just because I call myself a gorilla and eat my own poo, doesn't actually make me a gorilla.

 

I'm sorry that so many of you had such horrible experiences with hypocritical "Christians".

 

Now, if you want to know about my walk with Christ, let me know. I won't share that here...

[Joanne]

I'm sorry that so many of you had such horrible experiences with hypocritical "Christians".

 

...

 

To clarify, what I am reading and my own experience isn't limited to encounters with hypocritical "Christians".

 

It's is often a complete, epic *fail* on the part of intellect, scripture, ritual, dogma, doctrine and culture. Many have left Christianity not in response to observing people but because "God" or "Christianity" didn't make sense in light of their understanding of the world.

 

Edited to add: The post I quoted from read like many others; that if "you" were just the right (i.e. saved, like me, born again, bible believing....) Christian, you wouldn't have left. I have to say I believe the posters here when they say they WERE Christian, they did believe (or prayed earnestly to).

Edited March 31, 2011 by Joanne

[justamouse]

But isn't faith so much like love? There may be a season when it comes easy, when you're starry-eyed & your guy can do no wrong. And then there are seasons when you have to fight for it, when it *would* be easy to walk away. Those hard seasons, whether you walk away or not, don't take away the validity of the young love. And those hard seasons are really not for others to judge.

 

:grouphug:

 

Quoting that because it's just darned beautiful.

 

"Oh, you just didn't get to know the RIGHT kind of Christian. Don't let that deter you" and so on. No matter what, they know better than you. :glare:

 

 

For me, it was kind of like this in that I had to meet the right person with the answers I needed--and not just the right ones, but the ones that satisfied me.

 

But my walk was ****ed up, no two ways about it.

 

I started out Catholic, mom was a Charismatic Catholic, then we went to freaky non denom churches where pastors took off in the middle of the night with everything they could steal, and then pastors came who were actually lying about who and what they were--to the point that background checks were done and lo and behold, there were alias and then that church split, but I had always called that guy out as a snake oil salesman-and it split my family. I was kicked out of the house because I refused to go the the snake oil salesman's church. Then they left with everything in the night so I was right but it was too late and I was out on my own. I never stopped believing in God, but I don't think there was a Christian that walked this earth that I could respect.

 

Later I moved in with a guy who was totally abusive to the point that he was taking my head and smashing it against a stone wall and as I heard a pop, like a cantaloupe, and was just about to pass out, I cried out to be saved. Please, keep me conscious because he'll kill me and if you are real, get me out. I'll leave, I swear, if you're real, get me out.

 

And he did. They were small, ordinary miracles, like just enough gas in the car, and him being passed out long enough to sneak away, and me, finding where he hid the battery (because he had that sucker HID). Making it though the worst snowstorm in ages with no car insurance, no money and just what gas was left in the tank.

 

A few months later I met up with some old friends and didn't want to renege on my part of the bargain, so I tiptoed into their church. I wasn't willing to try again, but I was willing to try again if that makes *any* sense. I was willing to be willing. Well, things were pretty good there-it met in an ambulance building, I was one of a handfull and it eventually built up to a huge monstrosity and then they were putting on the second million dollar addition and telling the homeless woman that, No, you can't be a part of the praise and worship team, we have a dress code. (and a multitude of answers like that-I had the lucky view from the inside) And me looking at the homeless woman and the addition and realizing that no one ever in the circle told this pastor No. I gave up and walked out. If I was going to tithe, it was going to be to that homeless woman.

 

That's when I left it all behind. Finis. It was bull****. I vehemently hated all things Christian.

 

I started reading up on Paganism. I read about Judaisim, Buddhisim. I just couldn't shake the concept of God no matter what. But the rest I refused.

 

Then, after years, I read about housechurches. Sounded great. God on my terms. But it never panned out and people ...well, they're people.

 

And that's when I realized they were people. And they're always going to be people. Because people always make sucky decisions.

 

Why Catholic? Because my questions were old. And I needed men with much learning to be willing to wrestle them out with me, and for me. Respect me enough to answer my questions and accept my anger because it was pretty just. And even if priests screw up-and they do, that church will not split. That body will go on, just as it has been. I really did have to meet the people that answered my questions, but it was a whole ...firm foundation that went along with those answers. And, in a sense, even within this past month, I'm starting from the beginning because I'm unlearning. It's a huge paradigm change. I hope this time it sticks, and that's it's a good sign that it's a different way of thinking.

Edited March 31, 2011 by justamouse

[secular_mom]

 

the things that stood out to me is how sad the experiences are that people had from others calling themselves Christians.

 

It happens. Before I was 'saved/born again' I still called myself a 'Christian'. I called myself a Christian because I was raised Catholic, I believed in Christ, etc... but had very little Bible knowledge and had never turned my life over to Christ. I did however go through the hoops of Catholicism without ever developing a relationship with Christ fairly easily. I had the 'head' knowledge, but not the heart knowledge.

 

When I was a "Christian" before I was actually a Christian, I would probably have been a total turd to someone as well.

 

Typical with a capital T. IMNSHO the world could be a MUCH better place if such comments as the one in red above were just NOT made.

I was a believer, now I am not and it is NOT because I didn't have a relationship with my imaginary friend Jesus and SkyDaddy. I depended on them to get through my days, I would consult them both before leaving the house to buy groceries- I believed that ALL the good things that happened in my life came from them. They were my BESTESTESTESTEST friends and I KNEW I could depend on them when I couldn't even count on myself- *I* would always let me down but THEY were always there to pick me up.

When y'all make comments like 'call themselves Christians but...', well, it's not pretty, it's not appealing and it sure as hell doesn't look like forgiveness or following the golden rule- Would YOU like to overhear someone speculating about whether you are REALLY a Christian or not? Truthfully? Would it be pleasant to hear someone saying that you CLAIM to be a Christian, BUT...?

There is not one who has not committed sin- all fall short of the glory of God. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven and if you're still here God isn't finished with you yet, etc.

Stop talking Jesus all over everyone and just live your life- get the planks out of your eyes so you stop beating the **** out of the rest of us with them, and THEN maybe your God will appeal to more people. But that's JMNSHO so do what you want with it.

SEP, I promise I'm not picking on you specifically even though it's your post I quoted. It's the general idea that you posted (that is spouted by EVER so many people everywhere I go) that makes me bonkers.

 

 

:grouphug:

[Lovedtodeath]

I have not received any PMs but I have a feeling that some of the complaints were about my post.

I think that unless you give details, there is always going to be someone who thinks that you haven't heard Orthodox, or LDS, or Baptist, or JW beliefs (just picking on me and my best friends here :D) or etc. so you still need to be "enlightened".

Aubrey was saying "or something" needed to be done about foot in the mouth syndrome. Just FYI... this was my attempt at "or something". I also see that Faith and Aubrey said a lot that I would say as well, and should have read before posting.

 

For me, it was kind of like this in that I had to meet the right person with the answers I needed--and not just the right ones, but the ones that satisfied me.

That's what I was trying to say. Though I said it very badly. I have been in the ministry and I have met a lot of people that left Christianity, lost trust in the Bible or lost faith in God because of a doctrine or belief that is explained in an entirely different way elsewhere. I mean, there are Christians out there that don't believe that the Bible teaches that all good people go to heaven, there are those that have a completely different take on sin and the ransom sacrifice, those that explain why bad things happen in entirely different ways. The big ones. Thanks for sharing your whole story, mine is below.

 

Quoting that because it's just darned beautiful.

:iagree:It was perfect.

And now some QUOTES from a previous related thread

Originally Posted by ThatCyndiGirl

I never bought into it. NEVER. Even as a kid I the one who annoyed the sunday school teachers because I asked the obvious questions that no one else seemed to ask. Their answers were too simplistic. Such as....dinosaurs and people co-existed, but dinosaurs were vegetarians back then. <---and no, I don't wish to debate this.

I "asked Jesus into my heart" so many times that I lost count. Every single time I felt nothing and it accomplished nothing. I always hated reading the bible. It's boring. Going to church was just as boring. So was singin all of those songs. Boring.

 

On the 'not going to church thread' (can't remember title) some poster talked about how "if someone thinks going to church is boring, reading the bible is boring and worshipping god is boring then they aren't a christian, whether they call themselves one or not". Well, there ya go.

 

After awhile I just stopped pretending and this whole other world opened up for me. A world in which I no longer had to pretend. My aunt got onto me for not going to church after I got married. "I told her, "I feel nothing. I do not believe in this. It's not me." She said,"You go because you have faith." I thought, "No, YOU go because YOU have faith."

ME:

You know, honestly, when you stuff like in the purple part it annoys me, because I don't see how it is possible, but most of your post makes so much sense and I can start to see how that purple part makes sense because of what I have been through... The thing about that first bolded part that is good is that I can get in depth answers that make sense, but at times I have to ask for them... (actually I can search) so many people think that the simple answer will suffice.

 

I stopped being a Jehovah's Witness (Christian in an organized religion) for years. I would get the same stupid things said to me over and over. "You are punishing God for the actions of imperfect people. You have turned your back on Jehovah. You can't stop serving Him because of what imperfect men do." Hello! I don't believe that this organization represents God, so by leaving said organization I am not choosing to turn my back on him! I am searching for the truth and I don't think this is it. Everything that anyone said to encourage me was more of the same stupid things. They didn't understand that not believing as they did was not the same as rejecting Jehovah God. I still wanted God in my life. I just felt like He wasn't with the congregation. I did try to study some on my own, but I have found that isn't enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by astrid

I've got to agree here. I think many "ex-Christians" have arrived at that point perhaps in part because of the hurtful, judgemental, dishonorable actions of Christians in their lives. At least for those ex Christians I know personally, this has been the case. Because of that, their skin may be a bit sensitive to the question especially in a heavily Christian forum such as this.

 

Not sure, just my guess.

 

 

Peace,

astrid

ME:

Astrid's was the last post I read. She is right.

 

I was pushed away by the judgmental actions of others. It is like some Christians have their own brand of prejudice.

 

I was also very upset by the attitude of fear-mongering. Due to circumstances my attendance for religious events is far from perfect. Many people (including my mom) think that God will see fit to destroy me for that. Of course they don't put it that way. They are "scared" that I won't be able to make it through "the great tribulation" or Armageddon. What they fail to realize is that if one doesn't make it through... then it is because God has seen fit to destroy you. I hate that emphasis on fearing the great tribulation. It is not representative of God's personality and is just as harmful as the hellfire doctrine (which I will never accept as Biblical).

 

So with the unloving and/or judgmental actions by some people in one congregation, and the fear mongering that permeates my family members, I was really discouraged and depressed by associating with those people. My self esteem was so low that I found it nearly impossible to pray. So I stopped going. I doubted the organization worldwide and started searching.

 

I have seen that God's people needed correction on many of the same matters before. That is why Paul and Peter wrote letters to the congregations in the first century. Some things have improved in the congregation, some things have improved in my attitude. I have found nothing better. I have researched evolution/creation, the inspiration and preservation of the Bible. I believe all of those things. I have also felt God in my life. The governing body and group of people that organize Jehovah's Witnesses have never let me down. I haven't found another organized religion that provides so much "spiritual food", all of it Bible-based. Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide all teach the same thing. They have that harmony that Jesus spoke of. So I am back. I read an article recently about Samuel that was very encouraging. He didn't give up on God or on God's people. I won't either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4wildberrys

Wow. This is EXACTLY---EXACTLY where my family of myself and 2 teenagers are at...right now! We ARE still Christians, but the 'christians' in this town have such a distorted sense of what it means that after 3 churches and 3 horrible, hurtful experiences....we're taking a break from being around those 'christians' before our true faith is ruined.

That is exactly where I was for a time.

I came back to the faith slowly. I am now a conservative, Bible believing, accepting, loving follower of Jesus. I call myself a Christian. My beef was really not ever with God - it was with men...and therefore, churches who were run by men. I still have a beef with a lot of it.

This is me. I am still slowly trying to come back into a congregation, but I am still questioning a lot of specifics. Edited March 31, 2011 by Lovedtodeath
adding names to the quotes

[Peela]

 

All of the above is why I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that someone who was an atheist, could then believe in the supernatural.

 

I just wanted to respond to this.

I always wondered who this God was that Christians talked about- it always seemed like a very vague concept and no one nailed it down except that it was very Paternal and controlling- but you were supposed to believe in it anyway. For a while there the concept of God bugged me because it just didn't make sense that there would be this supernatural being in the sky watching everything we do.

Later in my spiritual journey, I found that the concept of God was no longer a problem because I had just managed to expand my concept of God to something very big and very inclusive, very present in everything- consciousness itself. So while I certainly don't believe in a big all seeing God that is separate from me, like a super duper Zeus or whatever, I do see where the concept comes from and what it is trying to describe- which is beyond the human mind's capacity to understand or describe.

So its not so simple as rejecting God for me. I don't. In fact, when Christians talk about God I can relate because my concept of God is inclusive of theirs- but not exclusive to theirs if they define it narrowly (and not all do).

I also have NO problem with "supernatural phenomena" of which I have witnessed and experienced plenty. To me, it is just phenomena that cannot be explained by science (yet) and which our western society tends to ignore and deny- but other cultures to do not deny it and I do not deny it. That doesn't mean I believe in the Roman Gods or a deified Christian God either.

 

As for sermonising Christians- I like to poke my head in Christian threads sometimes too, and sometimes even say something. I hope I don't appear to sermonise- I usually try and keep it to strictly my experience and understanding, rather than trying to tell(sell) you the one and only truth you seem to be missing :) I really don't think people would sermonise Christianity inappropriately if they realised how much they are turning the listener OFF rather than enticing them. But I try to just send them good wishes from my heart for meaning well, however annoying they are.

[Lovedtodeath]

Peela thank you for being gracious. I found your post very interesting. I already believed in God, the breath of life, and the Holy Spirit. After learning some about eastern medicine and Chi, it seems that there are connections there and they actually fit in with the Bible, they aren't heretical (though many would assume they are).

[Tea Time]

Typical with a capital T. IMNSHO the world could be a MUCH better place if such comments as the one in red above were just NOT made.

I was a believer, now I am not and it is NOT because I didn't have a relationship with my imaginary friend Jesus and SkyDaddy. I depended on them to get through my days, I would consult them both before leaving the house to buy groceries- I believed that ALL the good things that happened in my life came from them. They were my BESTESTESTESTEST friends and I KNEW I could depend on them when I couldn't even count on myself- *I* would always let me down but THEY were always there to pick me up.

When y'all make comments like 'call themselves Christians but...', well, it's not pretty, it's not appealing and it sure as hell doesn't look like forgiveness or following the golden rule- Would YOU like to overhear someone speculating about whether you are REALLY a Christian or not? Truthfully? Would it be pleasant to hear someone saying that you CLAIM to be a Christian, BUT...?

There is not one who has not committed sin- all fall short of the glory of God. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven and if you're still here God isn't finished with you yet, etc.

Stop talking Jesus all over everyone and just live your life- get the planks out of your eyes so you stop beating the **** out of the rest of us with them, and THEN maybe your God will appeal to more people. But that's JMNSHO so do what you want with it.

SEP, I promise I'm not picking on you specifically even though it's your post I quoted. It's the general idea that you posted (that is spouted by EVER so many people everywhere I go) that makes me bonkers.

 

 

:grouphug:

 

:lol:

Yeah! No kidding we'd all be much better off if such comments were not made, including yours. Everybody agrees, the world would be a MUCH better place if everyone was just like me. :lol:

 

We GET that your angry. People do mean things. They say nasty things. If you are observant, there is no group of people who belong to a particular philosophical POV that are exempt from it, either. It does not really make any logical sense to be so exceptionally angry with Christians who do it, is there?

 

As a secular humanist, don't you think that such righteous indignation has no place? This is a meaningless universe. Why get so worked up about anything? Eat, drink, and be merry. Live and let live. But thinking people are not living up to some "standard" is patently absurd under such a belief system.

 

There is no God then there is no standard, except that knee-jerk everyone must think like me standard that ALL of us have (called selfishness), or the eat=good/not eat=bad, and that isn't really what is bugging you here. Stop being disappointed and angry at Christians (or anyone else) for failing to meet it. And don't tell me that the anger comes in because Christians THINK there is a standard and then they can't meet it. You are still then invoking some standard that someone made up, unless that standard exists apart from humans, and that is a philosophical argument FOR a God, so watch out for that.

 

Again, in a materialist world none of that matters. It all just is what it is, and it quite possibly could never have been any other way (determinism). Such anger and bitterness (not just you, I am not picking on you, but a lot of people in this thread and IRL) about how people fail to observe morality are really just as imaginary as any Jesus or Skydaddy, aren't they?

 

I am not going to listen to any machinations about how the way you are looking at is is right because... The point is that such machinations to justify a POV as being the "right" POV on these matters are all evidence of that "standard" that exists and has no place in a materialist universe. That is why I left my atheism.

 

Now, figuring out that standard, and what POV gets closest to understanding it or applying it? THAT is a whole other can of worms.

[Just Robyn]

When I was 11 or 12 I finally became aware of the sexism in the church in which I was brought up. That was enough to get the ball rolling. After that I explored world religion, and even re-explored Christianity, but in the end I couldn't be part of a religion. I'm not sure when I fully accepted that I was an atheist. There was a long period there when I just didn't think about religion and I can't remember what caused me to evaluate my beliefs and declare them. Now that I think about it I was agnostic for some years in high school.. and college? Changing from agnostic to atheist must have been a gradual accumulation of information and experiences.

[lionfamily1999]

Jean, I stopped, but started again... I voted for when I had stopped.

 

I had a bad time at my church when I was between 15 and 16. I left. My mother fell away (tumbled, flew, raged away) as well, as did my brother. For the next few years I was more agnostic than anything else. I'm not sure how to explain it, because I didn't realize I had stopped being a Christian for a number of years. I started thinking that all roads lead to Heaven, that God expected us to rule according to human justice, and eventually I just stopped believing.

 

It wasn't until my gramma sent me a book and begged me to read it that I realized that I was absolutely NOT a Christian any more. I said I was when asked, but I always added in a long list of things I didn't agree with. I am a Christian, but I think everyone that worships their god whole heartedly gets into heaven. I'm a Christian, but I think we have to make our own paths to righteousness. I'm a Christian, but I don't think anyone else is wrong. I'm a Christian, but it's just because I think Christ is the friendliest choice for a diety. I'm guessing what is clear to me now is clear enough here. I was not a Christian. I saw Christ as one of many paths to enlightenment, just as useful, just as real, just as right as any other path anyone else might follow.

 

The book my gramma sent opened my eyes. It led to some heart felt turning around. I could not believe how far I had gone and I was terrified by the things I had taught those around me. I'm a Christian now, but I wasn't then and I DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE IT. How creepy is that?

 

So, anyway, there's ma story.

[susankenny]

Jean,

 

I didn't vote because I am actually a Christian now. I did not become one until I was 24 though (now 40) and I was not raised in a Christian home. There were 2 main reasons I was not interested in pursuing Christianity when I was younger.

 

1) It made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I could not even grasp why a man dying had anything to do with my "sin" (which by the way, I thought I was doing quite well - thank you). Not to sound disrespectful to my own faith now, but it was really lacking a reasonable explanation. "I'm a sinner. Jesus will save me. He loved me so much that he died for me". It.made.NO.sense.

 

2) All the Christian I had ever met in real life had no joy. They seemed judgmental, hypocritical, and just as stressed out as anyone else I knew.

 

Anyway, I hope this gives you insight from what my perspective was.

 

 

Susan

Edited March 31, 2011 by susankenny

[Jennifer3141]

To clarify, what I am reading and my own experience isn't limited to encounters with hypocritical "Christians".

 

It's is often a complete, epic *fail* on the part of intellect, scripture, ritual, dogma, doctrine and culture. Many have left Christianity not in response to observing people but because "God" or "Christianity" didn't make sense in light of their understanding of the world.

 

 

Joanne, you make such a good point here. I don't like many of the so-called Christians I know but that ultimately wasn't why I walked away from Xtianity.

 

I walked away because it just seems so stupid to me. Secular_mom's "Sky Daddy" is a perfect way to express it for me. And there are sects within the Xtian story that seem even nuttier to me. I mean, knights battling dinosaurs??? Really??

Around here, the line is that Satan hides dinosaur bones to make non-believers think that the world is older than it is. I have so many issues with that way of thinking. Why would Satan do that? He dreamed up dinosaurs and then travelled around the world to throw people off? There's no easier way to do that? And why dinosaurs? Why not fairy skeletons made of oranium or something? When I hear stuff like that my brain simply starts, "But what about this? And this? And this?"

 

I just cannot wrap my head around the idea of abandoning science for mythology - ANYONE'S mythology. I do not understand how or why people would abandon critical thinking for mythology.

 

I do have a few Xtian friends - I'm fussier with them than I am with my atheist friends. You prosyletize your story to my kids without checking with me? Friendship all done. You want to try to convince me that someone lived in a whale's belly while it dove to the bottom of the ocean? Then you'd better be prepared to allow me to ask why the immense pressure didnt' kill him or how he survived the temperature, lack of fresh water, etc. If not, friendship all done.

 

The "best" Xtian people I know are the ones who've done some wrestling with the questions. The people I cannot have in my life are the ones who deny the right or need to question or deny that there even ARE questions. I simply believe if there is a god, that he would be delighted with the questions. I am so proud when my kids come up to me with one that makes me pause and think, "Huh. Good point! I don't know!" If a god made you, wouldn't he want you to be smart? If not, why aren't we all vegetables? Why would you have a brain then, beyond something to control body processes? Wouldn't humans just be a bunch of bald, two legged sheep without that ability to ask why?

 

I have a hard time with some classical educators because we are supposed to know other people's belief systems. You cannot really study ancient Egypt without learning WHY them made mummies and pyramids. I do not understand how you can call yourself a classical educator without knowing that. And if you do, then how do you justify your path being the ONLY path? All the ancient Egyptians are burning in hell? Some of their religious beliefs were around for a lot longer than yours. How do you KNOW your beliefs are the truth? Don't even get me started on the Crusades... :D

 

So when I walked away, I put all that nonsense (to me) away. I don't have to worry about the knight/dinosaur crowd verses the non-knight/dinosaur crowd. And I have so much free time! And no worries at night than I'm on the "wrong" side. I'm watching some friends struggle with it and my heart goes out to them so much.

[SEP]

Joanne, you make such a good point here. I don't like many of the so-called Christians I know but that ultimately wasn't why I walked away from Xtianity.

 

I walked away because it just seems so stupid to me. Secular_mom's "Sky Daddy" is a perfect way to express it for me. And there are sects within the Xtian story that seem even nuttier to me. I mean, knights battling dinosaurs??? Really??

Around here, the line is that Satan hides dinosaur bones to make non-believers think that the world is older than it is. I have so many issues with that way of thinking. Why would Satan do that? He dreamed up dinosaurs and then travelled around the world to throw people off? There's no easier way to do that? And why dinosaurs? Why not fairy skeletons made of oranium or something? When I hear stuff like that my brain simply starts, "But what about this? And this? And this?"

 

I just cannot wrap my head around the idea of abandoning science for mythology - ANYONE'S mythology. I do not understand how or why people would abandon critical thinking for mythology.

 

I do have a few Xtian friends - I'm fussier with them than I am with my atheist friends. You prosyletize your story to my kids without checking with me? Friendship all done. You want to try to convince me that someone lived in a whale's belly while it dove to the bottom of the ocean? Then you'd better be prepared to allow me to ask why the immense pressure didnt' kill him or how he survived the temperature, lack of fresh water, etc. If not, friendship all done.

 

The "best" Xtian people I know are the ones who've done some wrestling with the questions. The people I cannot have in my life are the ones who deny the right or need to question or deny that there even ARE questions. I simply believe if there is a god, that he would be delighted with the questions. I am so proud when my kids come up to me with one that makes me pause and think, "Huh. Good point! I don't know!" If a god made you, wouldn't he want you to be smart? If not, why aren't we all vegetables? Why would you have a brain then, beyond something to control body processes? Wouldn't humans just be a bunch of bald, two legged sheep without that ability to ask why?

 

I have a hard time with some classical educators because we are supposed to know other people's belief systems. You cannot really study ancient Egypt without learning WHY them made mummies and pyramids. I do not understand how you can call yourself a classical educator without knowing that. And if you do, then how do you justify your path being the ONLY path? All the ancient Egyptians are burning in hell? Some of their religious beliefs were around for a lot longer than yours. How do you KNOW your beliefs are the truth? Don't even get me started on the Crusades... :D

 

So when I walked away, I put all that nonsense (to me) away. I don't have to worry about the knight/dinosaur crowd verses the non-knight/dinosaur crowd. And I have so much free time! And no worries at night than I'm on the "wrong" side. I'm watching some friends struggle with it and my heart goes out to them so much.

 

i know Christianity might seem 'hokey' because we cannot 'explain' things to the level that most skeptics want to hear it laid out. People want 'answers'. God wants faith. Once you have witnessed how the Lord works in your life, it becomes easier to see that if He did xyz, then he can easily do abc...

 

i know that some Christians spout information that isn't Biblical. I don't think that saying that is somehow dogging out other Christians. It's the truth. Some people who profess to be Christians do not live as the Bible says we should. Just because I don't say that aloud, doesn't make it any less true. I'm sure it's true in any faith.

 

However, I know my experience and I know my life. I know what the Lord has done for me and it is nothing short of supernatural.

 

I am not trying to tell you what you experienced didn't happen. I believe you can leave *Christianity* as an organized religion. Just like you can leave any other religion.

 

However, if you broke fellowship with the Lord, and turned away from the relationship that you and He shared, I would think that would burden your soul. Maybe I'm wrong. But I am one of those crazy people who thinks that either your soul would long for the Lord or maybe you never turned your heart over to Him to begin with. I'm not basing this on my interpretation. I'm basing this on the Christian Word of God. Not emotions, not my explaining it away. Just that the Lord said that once you become His, you are always His.

[Lovedtodeath]

I'm basing this on the Christian Word of God. ... Just that the Lord said that once you become His, you are always His.

And I am one who thinks if God's word says it, then I want proof in the form of a citing or a quote...

 

but then I know that makes people even more irritated. :o

[mommymilkies]

i know Christianity might seem 'hokey' because we cannot 'explain' things to the level that most skeptics want to hear it laid out. People want 'answers'. God wants faith. Once you have witnessed how the Lord works in your life, it becomes easier to see that if He did xyz, then he can easily do abc...

 

i know that some Christians spout information that isn't Biblical. I don't think that saying that is somehow dogging out other Christians. It's the truth. Some people who profess to be Christians do not live as the Bible says we should. Just because I don't say that aloud, doesn't make it any less true. I'm sure it's true in any faith.

 

However, I know my experience and I know my life. I know what the Lord has done for me and it is nothing short of supernatural.

 

I am not trying to tell you what you experienced didn't happen. I believe you can leave *Christianity* as an organized religion. Just like you can leave any other religion.

 

However, if you broke fellowship with the Lord, and turned away from the relationship that you and He shared, I would think that would burden your soul. Maybe I'm wrong. But I am one of those crazy people who thinks that either your soul would long for the Lord or maybe you never turned your heart over to Him to begin with. I'm not basing this on my interpretation. I'm basing this on the Christian Word of God. Not emotions, not my explaining it away. Just that the Lord said that once you become His, you are always His.

FWIW, this is really not helpful in this discussion. Really.

[OH_Homeschooler]

whoa. i cannot believe I actually took the time to read all of those posts.

 

Me neither. I'm sorry, but no one asked you to. Just as many threads here are labeled CC as a warning to non-Christians that you may not like what is being said, I'd think the fact that this thread began as a question to people who are NOT Christian would indicate that perhaps this is not the thread for you.

 

i'm sure i'll be ripped apart.

 

When I was a "Christian" before I was actually a Christian, I would probably have been a total turd to someone as well.

 

Shoot, right now, at my church we have some crappy people who may or may not be saved because they do not exhibit the love of Christ to others, as discussed in the Bible. Only the Lord knows if someone is a Christian. The Bible discusses key behaviors, "Fruits of the Spirit" that should be evident if someone is saved. If those behaviors are never there, it does make you wonder.

 

Just because I call myself a gorilla and eat my own poo, doesn't actually make me a gorilla.

 

I'm sorry that so many of you had such horrible experiences with hypocritical "Christians".

 

 

Well, aren't you kind of asking to be ripped apart? Sorry, but why else would you come into a thread where people are discussing why they are no longer Christian and try to convince them they are wrong? And as I pointed out in my previous post, a lot of Christians just try to claim you haven't fallen into the right group of Christians, and this is a huge pet peeve of mine as I've very deliberately put myself in MANY different Christian groups to find the right fit. Then you come and basically make that exact argument to this thread. So yeah, maybe you will be ripped apart.

 

 

Now, if you want to know about my walk with Christ, let me know. I won't share that here...

 

No thanks! I hear that ALL the time. I get people knocking on my door at least once a week to tell me about how great their church is and how I can have eternal life. (I just noted in another thread how an atheist has NEVER knocked on my door to convince me not to believe in God!) But if I get bored someday and want to know, I'll go ahead and start a thread and actually request this information from all the fine Christians here.

[Lady Florida.]

ultimately wasn't why I walked away from Xtianity.

 

I walked away because it just seems so stupid to me. Secular_mom's "Sky Daddy" is a perfect way to express it for me.

 

I just cannot wrap my head around the idea of abandoning science for mythology - ANYONE'S mythology. I do not understand how or why people would abandon critical thinking for mythology.

 

 

So when I walked away, I put all that nonsense (to me) away.

 

Yes. This. So many Christians think it's because we had a bad experience either with other Christians, or with a particular church or church doctrine. While that's what started some atheists questioning in the first place, many of us had a perfectly fine experience with Christianity. I did. I liked my church and the people who went there. I liked the people who ran the children's program my son attended. Nothing bad whatsoever happened to push me away.

 

As I stated in my first reply to Jean's original post, I read the bible using critical thinking skills. As I read the bible, much of it became obvious to me, that it was just a primitive people trying to explain what to them was unexplainable. And as Geek stated, the god of the bible isn't someone I'd want to worship even if he did exist. There's much in that book that's downright evil.

 

If I have to lock rationality in a box to believe - not just Christianity but any religion - then, well that just doesn't make sense to me.

[Lady Florida.]

That is why I left my atheism.

 

 

 

Wow. It sounds like you had as bad an experience with some atheists as some atheists have had with some Christians.

 

How do you "leave" atheism? What is there to leave? It is neither a belief system nor an organization.

 

I posted this in another thread, but it's appropriate for this thread too.

 

a-the-ism

[ey-thee-iz-uhm]

a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

 

That is the entire meaning of atheism.

 

Atheism is not a religion, it is not a belief system.

Atheism is nothing sinister, and nothing to fear.

When it comes to Zeus, we are all atheists.

 

 

[Pretty in Pink]

I didn't vote. I don't know if I want to say that I've stopped being a Christian. I still believe in God (or a Supreme Being, a Creator). I still believe that Jesus is the path I have found to know my Creator. I'm kind of over the Bible. I'm tired of trying to reconcile what I feel to be true about my Creator with what I see written on those pages. I am tired of all of the Christians that I know and all of the churches that I have attended who spend all of their time talking about who is and is not truly Christian, who does and does not use the right bible, and patting one another on the back for having found the one true 'truth'. It just makes me sick. I am sick of the legalism and the judgment and the fear -- fear of hell, fear of asking the wrong question, fear of being myself. I am just over it.

 

I still love Jesus. I've almost come to hate the word Christian. There are so many beautiful people in the world who deserve so much more than the pity or disdain of me or anyone else judging them for their spiritual journey.

[Mergath]

I didn't vote. I don't know if I want to say that I've stopped being a Christian. I still believe in God (or a Supreme Being, a Creator). I still believe that Jesus is the path I have found to know my Creator.

 

Pagans who subscribe to a broad variety of beliefs and religions tend to refer to themselves as Eclectic Pagans. So maybe you're an Eclectic Christian? :)

[SEP]

Me neither. I'm sorry, but no one asked you to. Just as many threads here are labeled CC as a warning to non-Christians that you may not like what is being said, I'd think the fact that this thread began as a question to people who are NOT Christian would indicate that perhaps this is not the thread for you.

 

 

 

Well, aren't you kind of asking to be ripped apart? Sorry, but why else would you come into a thread where people are discussing why they are no longer Christian and try to convince them they are wrong? And as I pointed out in my previous post, a lot of Christians just try to claim you haven't fallen into the right group of Christians, and this is a huge pet peeve of mine as I've very deliberately put myself in MANY different Christian groups to find the right fit. Then you come and basically make that exact argument to this thread. So yeah, maybe you will be ripped apart.

 

 

 

 

No thanks! I hear that ALL the time. I get people knocking on my door at least once a week to tell me about how great their church is and how I can have eternal life. (I just noted in another thread how an atheist has NEVER knocked on my door to convince me not to believe in God!) But if I get bored someday and want to know, I'll go ahead and start a thread and actually request this information from all the fine Christians here.

 

what does the CC on the posts mean? seriously. i do not know. is that explained somewhere?

 

also, whether it irritates others or not, when people write account after account of "Christians" treating them poorly it bothers me. Christians, Bible believing, followers of Christ should not treat others that way.

 

Whether you believe in nothing or something, Christians should not treat you badly. So, this was my attempt to say that sometimes *Christianity* the 'religion' and *Christians* devout followers of Christ do not match up.

[nmoira]

 

As a secular humanist, don't you think that such righteous indignation has no place? This is a meaningless universe. Why get so worked up about anything? Eat, drink, and be merry. Live and let live. But thinking people are not living up to some "standard" is patently absurd under such a belief system.applying it? THAT is a whole other can of worms.

So we should just eat, and drink, and rut, and never concern ourselves with the moral or the philosophical? Because there us no god to give us a set of rules? Just because you lacked sufficient initiative, compassion, or even curiosity as an atheist doesn't mean this is the case for the ready of us. I can reason. I see how my actions affect others. I can talk about this with friends, colleagues, heck even philosophers. I can hear the experience of others and learn from them. Just because non-believers may not present a united front like Christians do :tongue_smilie: doesn't make us amoral. Edited March 31, 2011 by nmoira
darned predictive text

[mommymilkies]

Yes. This. So many Christians think it's because we had a bad experience either with other Christians, or with a particular church or church doctrine. While that's what started some atheists questioning in the first place, many of us had a perfectly fine experience with Christianity. I did. I liked my church and the people who went there. I liked the people who ran the children's program my son attended. Nothing bad whatsoever happened to push me away.

 

As I stated in my first reply to Jean's original post, I read the bible using critical thinking skills. As I read the bible, much of it became obvious to me, that it was just a primitive people trying to explain what to them was unexplainable. And as Geek stated, the god of the bible isn't someone I'd want to worship even if he did exist. There's much in that book that's downright evil.

 

If I have to lock rationality in a box to believe - not just Christianity but any religion - then, well that just doesn't make sense to me.

:iagree: I've read the bible and attended church camp, both many times. Sometimes I want to believe. In this little town, my life would be so much easier. Community, friends, faith...but I just can't. I read "fear and trembling" in the bible and I'm immediately put off. I spent years arguing with my stepfather about the inaccuracies in the Torah and Old Testament, and to me, the New Testament is worse, if not just because of all the books missing and the stories being completely different in many ways from book to book in the New Testament. I'm not not-Christian because I've just never met the right denomination or had someone enlighten me. I've been Jewish, Pagan, Buddhist, Catholic, Baptist, UU. I've attended Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist, Presbyterian, and other churches. I have JW friends. It's certainly not from lack of exposure!

[Pretty in Pink]

Pagans who subscribe to a broad variety of beliefs and religions tend to refer to themselves as Eclectic Pagans. So maybe you're an Eclectic Christian? :)

 

Thanks for being kind to me. :) I really have no one to share my feelings with IRL.

[8circles]

Didn't vote because I'm a Christian. Just wanted to thank the OP & all who answered honestly. It's been an enlightening read. Thank you.:)

[OH_Homeschooler]

:lol:

As a secular humanist, don't you think that such righteous indignation has no place? This is a meaningless universe. Why get so worked up about anything? Eat, drink, and be merry. Live and let live. But thinking people are not living up to some "standard" is patently absurd under such a belief system.

 

 

Wow, I missed this before. What a sad picture you paint of atheists. I do not believe the universe is meaningless. Is this REALLY what Christians think of atheists? I feel very insulted by this.

 

But thank you for telling us how we should categorize things under our belief system, which apparently you know a lot about.

 

what does the CC on the posts mean? seriously. i do not know. is that explained somewhere?

 

I take it to mean "Christian Content." Even if a post is not labeled as such, there are plenty of prayer threads. I don't think you'd ever see an atheist go into a prayer thread and tell everyone that praying is useless. In fact, even if I don't go into those threads with words of support or "pray" I definitely send those people good thoughts.

[kamom]

Typical with a capital T. IMNSHO the world could be a MUCH better place if such comments as the one in red above were just NOT made.

I was a believer, now I am not and it is NOT because I didn't have a relationship with my imaginary friend Jesus and SkyDaddy. I depended on them to get through my days, I would consult them both before leaving the house to buy groceries- I believed that ALL the good things that happened in my life came from them. They were my BESTESTESTESTEST friends and I KNEW I could depend on them when I couldn't even count on myself- *I* would always let me down but THEY were always there to pick me up.

When y'all make comments like 'call themselves Christians but...', well, it's not pretty, it's not appealing and it sure as hell doesn't look like forgiveness or following the golden rule- Would YOU like to overhear someone speculating about whether you are REALLY a Christian or not? Truthfully? Would it be pleasant to hear someone saying that you CLAIM to be a Christian, BUT...?

There is not one who has not committed sin- all fall short of the glory of God. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven and if you're still here God isn't finished with you yet, etc.

Stop talking Jesus all over everyone and just live your life- get the planks out of your eyes so you stop beating the **** out of the rest of us with them, and THEN maybe your God will appeal to more people. But that's JMNSHO so do what you want with it.

SEP, I promise I'm not picking on you specifically even though it's your post I quoted. It's the general idea that you posted (that is spouted by EVER so many people everywhere I go) that makes me bonkers.

 

 

:grouphug:

 

:grouphug: The highlighted, since you asked: NO it would not bother me or shake me, to have someone questioning my faith. Thruthfully. There is something about being at peace with myself and God and others, that this doesn't bother me.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Someone asked me before how I could tell that someone has NOT questioned their faith. Well, maybe I don't know. There is sometimes a stubbornness I guess when talking to some Christians, where you can't even start to bring up the possibility of God not existing. But what irks me the most is being told that I must be unenlightened since I don't believe in God, from someone who has only ever believed in God because that's just how they were brought up. How can just thinking one way your entire life make you more enlightened than someone who has pursued many avenues? That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

:grouphug: The highlighted, since you asked: NO it would not bother me or shake me, to have someone questioning my faith. Thruthfully. There is something about being at peace with myself and God and others, that this doesn't bother me.

 

But then there is this, when you definitely know that someone HAS questioned their faith. You can really have a much more open conversation. And this is the reason why I respect those who are willing to question their faith, because they've actually put it to the test. I guess it's like the Socrates quote "The unexamined life is not worth living"...except it's more "The unexamined faith is not worth having."

[SEP]

 

I take it to mean "Christian Content." Even if a post is not labeled as such, there are plenty of prayer threads. I don't think you'd ever see an atheist go into a prayer thread and tell everyone that praying is useless. In fact, even if I don't go into those threads with words of support or "pray" I definitely send those people good thoughts.

 

it would be a waste of time ... ;)

 

i don't respond to these posts because i expect someone to email me and say that they have been 'enlightened'. I personally like the banter and the challenge of reading what you believe and expressing what I believe. It keeps the mind sharp. It also helps for when I encounter those of different beliefs, or lack of beliefs IRL.

[kamom]

Someone asked me before how I could tell that someone has NOT questioned their faith. Well, maybe I don't know. There is sometimes a stubbornness I guess when talking to some Christians, where you can't even start to bring up the possibility of God not existing. But what irks me the most is being told that I must be unenlightened since I don't believe in God, from someone who has only ever believed in God because that's just how they were brought up. How can just thinking one way your entire life make you more enlightened than someone who has pursued many avenues? That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

 

But then there is this, when you definitely know that someone HAS questioned their faith. You can really have a much more open conversation. And this is the reason why I respect those who are willing to question their faith, because they've actually put it to the test. I guess it's like tSocrates quote "The unexaminhe ed life is not worth living"...except it's more "The unexamined faith is not worth having."

 

This gave me goosebumps from my head to my toes. That's my faith. It has been proven and stands true. I am sooo sorry if this offends anyone. I will cop out since this thread is for those who stopped being christians.

[Jean in Newcastle]

it would be a waste of time ... ;)

 

i don't respond to these posts because i expect someone to email me and say that they have been 'enlightened'. I personally like the banter and the challenge of reading what you believe and expressing what I believe. It keeps the mind sharp. It also helps for when I encounter those of different beliefs, or lack of beliefs IRL.

 

But this wasn't a thread asking for a debate to keep your mind sharp. It was asking for a certain set of people to share their experiences. I know that I did share my beliefs but it was specifically in response to a request to do so.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Jean in Newcastle

[Joanne]

:lol:

Yeah! No kidding we'd all be much better off if such comments were not made, including yours. Everybody agrees, the world would be a MUCH better place if everyone was just like me. :lol:

 

We GET that your angry. People do mean things. They say nasty things. If you are observant, there is no group of people who belong to a particular philosophical POV that are exempt from it, either. It does not really make any logical sense to be so exceptionally angry with Christians who do it, is there?

 

As a secular humanist, don't you think that such righteous indignation has no place? This is a meaningless universe. Why get so worked up about anything? Eat, drink, and be merry. Live and let live. But thinking people are not living up to some "standard" is patently absurd under such a belief system.

 

There is no God then there is no standard, except that knee-jerk everyone must think like me standard that ALL of us have (called selfishness), or the eat=good/not eat=bad, and that isn't really what is bugging you here. Stop being disappointed and angry at Christians (or anyone else) for failing to meet it. And don't tell me that the anger comes in because Christians THINK there is a standard and then they can't meet it. You are still then invoking some standard that someone made up, unless that standard exists apart from humans, and that is a philosophical argument FOR a God, so watch out for that.

 

Again, in a materialist world none of that matters. It all just is what it is, and it quite possibly could never have been any other way (determinism). Such anger and bitterness (not just you, I am not picking on you, but a lot of people in this thread and IRL) about how people fail to observe morality are really just as imaginary as any Jesus or Skydaddy, aren't they?

 

I am not going to listen to any machinations about how the way you are looking at is is right because... The point is that such machinations to justify a POV as being the "right" POV on these matters are all evidence of that "standard" that exists and has no place in a materialist universe. That is why I left my atheism.

 

Now, figuring out that standard, and what POV gets closest to understanding it or applying it? THAT is a whole other can of worms.

 

There is no room for intelligent discussion here. Your post is based on a faulty premise; that persons without Christianity are also without a moral compass or a standard. Your thought process assumes that lack of Christianity = hedonism.

 

The only value I see as "Christian" is Jesus is Lord. Any other behavior\trait is found in other religions, in wisdom literature across the ages and in the minds of individuals.

 

That "they'll know we are Christians by our love" is a crock. Plenty of people "love" and operate with a standard. It is only exclusive faith traditions who feel they exclusively own morality, kindness, care, charity, etc.

 

Enjoy and feel safe in your relationship with Christ. Try to avoid false dichotomies in arguements, though.

[SEP]

i know.

 

i agree.

 

it just bothered me that so many people had negative experiences with Christians.

 

i'm out. :)

[Lady Florida.]

 

As a secular humanist, don't you think that such righteous indignation has no place? This is a meaningless universe. Why get so worked up about anything? Eat, drink, and be merry. Live and let live. But thinking people are not living up to some "standard" is patently absurd under such a belief system.

 

Do you really believe that atheists have no morals? No standards? How sad to hold such a view of fellow human beings.

http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/morality_without_religion.htm

 

 

I am not going to listen to any machinations

Then don't. No one forced you to read this thread.

[justamouse]

 

 

And my 43 years on earth have convinced me that 1) the odds of any god existing are very slim, and 2) the idea of a christian god answering ANY prayer I can ask about my puny life while children starve to death tells me that such a god is highly immoral and not worth acknowledging let alone worshiping.

 

[ATTACH]4881[/ATTACH]Please click for full effect.

 

 

 

With my whole heart, I understand what you are saying. Please believe me. I have that same sense of justice. It's finely tuned.

 

If I were to draw that cartoon, instead of God sitting in the chair, I would put US in the chair. That is OUR fault. *MY* fault. And it's what propels me.

[Mert]

Jean, I stopped, but started again... I voted for when I had stopped.

 

 

Same here... I attended church all my life and participated wholeheartedly... prayed the prayer, got baptized, taught VBS, went on mission trips, etc. When I went away to college, none of it made sense any more. I questioned and tried a few different things through my young adult life came back to a relationship with God and Yeshua in my 30s.

[Jenny in Atl]

It's really, really hard to imagine how hard it is to be a not-Christian in this society. Shoot. There's not even a word for it.

 

It's really hard not being anything... As long as I can remember I've been asked, "what are you?" from classmates to parents to peers. I came from an agnostic family, not hard line against religion or faith, just not interested. Never can I remember wanting a spiritual answer for life's questions, but I wanted to belong, fell a part of something/community. I felt left out. Everyone else had these traditions, and some seemed really cool (many in my neighborhood were Irish & Italian Catholic). All those candles, incense, and chorals... Loved every gothic bit.

 

So, in my 20's & 30's I played at being an Episcopalian, while also exploring Judaism & Buddhism; all the while living in a very faith active Atl, GA. None of it rang true for me. Sure, I find value in many of the teachings of many of the world's faiths, but no one rule bk/story/path has made me go AH HA! So, I've found peace in not knowing. I feel little attachment to labels, to this constant need we humans have to compare ourselves to others (what do they believe, eat, look like, etc). I guess I never lost my faith, I just grew more comfortable with not having one.

[Jennifer3141]

i

However, if you broke fellowship with the Lord, and turned away from the relationship that you and He shared, I would think that would burden your soul. Maybe I'm wrong. But I am one of those crazy people who thinks that either your soul would long for the Lord or maybe you never turned your heart over to Him to begin with. I'm not basing this on my interpretation. I'm basing this on the Christian Word of God. Not emotions, not my explaining it away. Just that the Lord said that once you become His, you are always His.

 

Oh heck yeah, I "broke fellowship" with your god. Because I never really believed in your god.

 

And nope, I don't long for it. You can be his all you want. I don't want it. I'm rather fond of critical thinking and following my own ethics. If you want to believe in some frou-frou version of life after death and it brings you comfort, great. Personally, I don't need that comfort. I'm ok with death being well, DEATH.

 

I also don't need some invisible being to tell me right from wrong. That's pretty easy. The really big ones feel right or wrong. I would imagine that killing someone would not make me feel good. The nebulous stuff that could go either way? You need critical thinking and lots and lots of thought for that stuff. But what I don't need is a book from 1600 years ago written by people who were not actually AT the events they are writing about to tell me how to decide.

 

I also make leaps of faith all the time. But my leaps of faith are based upon ME. I make them because of internal forces. It sounds like you make leaps of faith based upon external forces. Whatever works - as long as you don't shove your story of leaping down my throat or harm my family in the process of your leaping.

 

So, nope. No longing. Just a sense of contentment and peace and humor that can't be shaken because someone found a T-rex in my backyard or a suit of armor in a dragon's belly or whatever the scandal du jour is within the Xtian church. I don't have to worry that anyone isn't Xtian enough or whatever. The people who are "too Xtian" make themselves know fairly quickly and we can walk away from each other easily enough.

[Lovedtodeath]

We all know that Christians are reading this thread. The OP is a Christian and there are several of us that have offered up our stories of when we left the faith or switched.

If I have to lock rationality in a box to believe - not just Christianity but any religion - then, well that just doesn't make sense to me.

How is this any less insulting than a Christian assuming that you didn't learn the right things?

 

Not to pick on on the person quoted (it is everywhere), so I took out the name...

[nmoira]

We all know that Christians are reading this thread. The OP is a Christian and there are several of us that have offered up our stories of when we left the faith or switched.How is this any less insulting than a Christian assuming that you didn't learn the right things?

 

Not to pick on on the person quoted (it is everywhere), so I took out the name...

There is an "if" followed by a qualifier and a "to me." No generalizations or absolute proclamations.

[Lady Florida.]

We all know that Christians are reading this thread. The OP is a Christian and there are several of us that have offered up our stories of when we left the faith or switched.How is this any less insulting than a Christian assuming that you didn't learn the right things?

 

Not to pick on on the person quoted (it is everywhere), so I took out the name...

 

 

That was my quote. I'm sorry if you find it insulting. I really am. But how is it not true? Can I use scientific, rational thinking to justify a belief in God? I cannot put rationality aside, and I cannot believe in a god using rational thinking. The two (rational thinking and faith) are incompatible in my view.

 

A Christian assuming I didn't learn the right things is still asking me to put aside critical thinking in order to learn those "right things". I cannot.

 

Quote:

If I have to lock rationality in a box to believe - not just Christianity but any religion - then, well that just doesn't make sense to me.

[kiana]

We all know that Christians are reading this thread. The OP is a Christian and there are several of us that have offered up our stories of when we left the faith or switched.How is this any less insulting than a Christian assuming that you didn't learn the right things?

 

Not to pick on on the person quoted (it is everywhere), so I took out the name...

 

Well, it does seem to break the board rule about 'Do not use inquiries as an excuse to proselytize.'