God's love, Free Will and some tough questions for anyone up for it.

[mykdsmomy]

I am a Jesus follower, Christian, whatever you want to label a person who tries to live their life like Christ did and believes Him to be their Savior.

 

I was raised Catholic so the bible wasn't studied in the same way as in a protestant upbringing.

 

Lately I've been struggling with something that I hope someone can shed some new light on.

 

God created us and is our Father. He chose to give us free will because He loves us and wants us to choose Him instead of us being robots that he programs to do His will. (following me so far?)

 

Ok, well as a mother, I have unconditional love for my children (as God has for his). I know how scary the world can be and I want to protect them from harm and from making huge mistakes. I would stop my child from running in the street because the consequence could be death.

 

How can our faith teach us that God loves us so unconditionally yet if we don't choose Him, we will live eternity in hell, lake of fire, eternal ****ation?

I can't imagine telling my child that if they make a mistake, they will spend eternity in a place that would be painful and agonizing for them...especially if I knew I could prevent that.

 

God knows better than we do the horrors of hell. How can a God who claims to love us unconditionally set us up for such eternal pain? I realize this all goes back to free will and robots (this is how it was always explained to me) but He still "programmed" us in a way. He designed us so of course there is a "robot" element to us. I have had people say "Well if you didn't have free will then you would just be like a puppet/robot and would have no choice...God loves you so much He gives you a choice and wants you to choose Him". I get that but why, if He loves us so much and knows the horrors that await us if we don't choose Him, would he not protect us? I would much rather be a robot who is blissfully happy and spends eternity with Him than a human that could screw up and wind up spending eternity in hell.

 

One more thing. I keep hearing "we're all sinners in need of Christ". Ok, I get that....but God created us! He created us to be sinners in need of Christ so why do I have to go around saying I'm wretched without Him? I didn't ask to be here. I didn't ask to be wretched. God created me as wretched (in this line of thinking).

 

I am just putting all this out there and I realize it's raw and probably offensive to some. (I'm seriously feeling like lightening bolts are about to strike me :001_huh: ). I just need some perspective on this.

 

I have to say that I praise God for my many many blessings. I want to spend eternity with Him. I just don't understand some of the contradictions I am hearing/seeing. Maybe I don't have a strong understanding of the bible and am using common sense to try and figure this all out?

 

:bigear:

[catalinakel]

These big questions have existed forever.... and the answers, if indeed we can find answers, do not please all. I believe that it is fine to ask these questions, but I do not believe that we can fully understand all of God's ways and means.

 

Some might call this a cop out. No matter.

 

The idea of Free Will is not something I can clearly explain because the Bible does not teach us that we are free apart from Christ. We are told that we are slaves to sin, and born into sin. I have lived with myself long enough to accept from experience that I am in fact totally unable to do good apart from the Grace of God working in me. Yes, I am a wretch.

 

Why some are chosen to believe and some are not is beyond my understanding. Can the clay say to the pot, "Why have you made me thus?" I think not. Ours is not to question why, in my experienced opinion. I am to love and to know that I am His and to tell of His marvelous works. I leave the rest for my wise Father to understand and execute.

[simka2]

I asked the pastor we were serving under a similar question. It was something along the lines of, "How could God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and attach such a heavy consequence to eating it...and then let us at it?" Heck I don't put poison on the counter, point it out to my kiddos, tell them not to eat it....and leave them unattended!

 

Eventually, it dawned on me that there was a safety net. Jesus existed with the trinity at creation...He knew he was going to redeem humanity. That helped me as a protestant.

 

I hope some of the EO Christians get on here, because they have a pretty different understanding of the Fall and Original Sin.

Edited February 6, 2011 by simka2

[Heather in Neverland]

These big questions have existed forever.... and the answers, if indeed we can find answers, do not please all. I believe that it is fine to ask these questions, but I do not believe that we can fully understand all of God's ways and means.

 

Some might call this a cop out. No matter.

 

The idea of Free Will is not something I can clearly explain because the Bible does not teach us that we are free apart from Christ. We are told that we are slaves to sin, and born into sin. I have lived with myself long enough to accept from experience that I am in fact totally unable to do good apart from the Grace of God working in me. Yes, I am a wretch.

 

Why some are chosen to believe and some are not is beyond my understanding. Can the clay say to the pot, "Why have you made me thus?" I think not. Ours is not to question why, in my experienced opinion. I am to love and to know that I am His and to tell of His marvelous works. I leave the rest for my wise Father to understand and execute.

 

:iagree:

[mykdsmomy]

These big questions have existed forever.... and the answers, if indeed we can find answers, do not please all. I believe that it is fine to ask these questions, but I do not believe that we can fully understand all of God's ways and means.

 

Some might call this a cop out. No matter.

 

The idea of Free Will is not something I can clearly explain because the Bible does not teach us that we are free apart from Christ. We are told that we are slaves to sin, and born into sin. I have lived with myself long enough to accept from experience that I am in fact totally unable to do good apart from the Grace of God working in me. Yes, I am a wretch.

 

Why some are chosen to believe and some are not is beyond my understanding. Can the clay say to the pot, "Why have you made me thus?" I think not. Ours is not to question why, in my experienced opinion. I am to love and to know that I am His and to tell of His marvelous works. I leave the rest for my wise Father to understand and execute.

 

Thank you for this. I know I am foolish to even question God's plan because I'm like the hamster in his cage who knows nothing of anything outside his view of his space. I go through periods of unrest and feel like I need to know why...but then I realize faith picks up where my understanding leaves off.

 

I asked the pastor we were serving under a similar question. It was something along the lines of, "How could God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and attach such a heavy consequence to eating it...and then let us at it?" Heck I don't put poison on the counter, point it out to my kiddos, tell them not to eat it....and leave them unattended!

 

Eventually, it dawned on me that there was a safety net. Jesus existed with the trinity at creation...He knew he was going to redeem humanity. That helped me as a protestant.

 

I hope some of the EO Christians get on here, because they have a pretty different understanding of the Fall and Original Sin.

 

Thank you for this too :) Jesus is indeed our safety net and I can rest knowing He is there. It's just hard to not be able to equate my unconditional love as a mother to God's unconditional love as a Father.

 

 

Thank you too, Heather, for replying :)

[Plucky]

I am a Jesus follower, Christian, whatever you want to label a person who tries to live their life like Christ did and believes Him to be their Savior.

 

I was raised Catholic so the bible wasn't studied in the same way as in a protestant upbringing.

 

Lately I've been struggling with something that I hope someone can shed some new light on.

 

God created us and is our Father. He chose to give us free will because He loves us and wants us to choose Him instead of us being robots that he programs to do His will. (following me so far?)

 

Ok, well as a mother, I have unconditional love for my children (as God has for his). I know how scary the world can be and I want to protect them from harm and from making huge mistakes. I would stop my child from running in the street because the consequence could be death.

 

How can our faith teach us that God loves us so unconditionally yet if we don't choose Him, we will live eternity in hell, lake of fire, eternal ****ation?

I can't imagine telling my child that if they make a mistake, they will spend eternity in a place that would be painful and agonizing for them...especially if I knew I could prevent that.

 

God knows better than we do the horrors of hell. How can a God who claims to love us unconditionally set us up for such eternal pain? I realize this all goes back to free will and robots (this is how it was always explained to me) but He still "programmed" us in a way. He designed us so of course there is a "robot" element to us. I have had people say "Well if you didn't have free will then you would just be like a puppet/robot and would have no choice...God loves you so much He gives you a choice and wants you to choose Him". I get that but why, if He loves us so much and knows the horrors that await us if we don't choose Him, would he not protect us? I would much rather be a robot who is blissfully happy and spends eternity with Him than a human that could screw up and wind up spending eternity in hell.

 

One more thing. I keep hearing "we're all sinners in need of Christ". Ok, I get that....but God created us! He created us to be sinners in need of Christ so why do I have to go around saying I'm wretched without Him? I didn't ask to be here. I didn't ask to be wretched. God created me as wretched (in this line of thinking).

 

I am just putting all this out there and I realize it's raw and probably offensive to some. (I'm seriously feeling like lightening bolts are about to strike me :001_huh: ). I just need some perspective on this.

 

I have to say that I praise God for my many many blessings. I want to spend eternity with Him. I just don't understand some of the contradictions I am hearing/seeing. Maybe I don't have a strong understanding of the bible and am using common sense to try and figure this all out?

 

:bigear:

 

All we have to do to choose Him is accept Jesus as our Savior. And my belief in hell is that why would God/Jesus make us live eternity with Him if we don't want to? It's really our choice. Sin is sin, and it won't keep us from Him eternally, that is why Jesus was sent to die for us. God and Jesus are the epitome of Love.

[sbgrace]

 

I hope some of the EO Christians get on here, because they have a pretty different understanding of the Fall and Original Sin.

 

I hope so too. I have some thoughts but I'm not feeling like I can articulate them well this late at night and I'm not sure I'm brave enough to do it anyway!

 

I will say that I do not think the Western Christianity understanding on this sort of thing is whole. Your questions (so common, I hope you know that these thoughts are common) and the typical answers I've heard come from that perspective. My upbringing and experience was from that perspective myself but the more I learn and the more I study about the early church particularly, the more I realize the perspective is skewed.

[Trish]

Hell is a permanent rejection of God, not a temporary one. It is not the result of a "mistake," or even a lifetime of mistakes if the person truly wants to do better and seeks God.

 

Absence of God is hell (whether hot, cold, neither, whatever), so rejection of God IS hell regardless. What I don't always remember is that God is continually present here on earth, and of course take that for granted, we ALWAYS have recourse to Him here, through prayer and just recognition of His presence. He is present even in awful circumstances.

 

If He were absent, earth would be a far more hellish place. In fact, hell.

 

This is still a fallen earth, though, thus the suffering and evil.

[LAS in LA]

Ugh! Just erased my reply, but maybe that's better! :001_smile:

 

"We are all God's children" and "We have free will" are probably the first ideas to look at more closely. Romans is a good book to read on these questions.

[Miss Sherry]

Hell is a permanent rejection of God, not a temporary one. It is not the result of a "mistake," or even a lifetime of mistakes if the person truly wants to do better and seeks God.

 

Absence of God is hell (whether hot, cold, neither, whatever), so rejection of God IS hell regardless. What I don't always remember is that God is continually present here on earth, and of course take that for granted, we ALWAYS have recourse to Him here, through prayer and just recognition of His presence. He is present even in awful circumstances.

 

If He were absent, earth would be a far more hellish place. In fact, hell.

 

This is still a fallen earth, though, thus the suffering and evil.

 

The possibility of spending eternity NOT in the presence of God should deeply sadden us. We should long to be in His presence for eternity. If we do not long to be in His presence for eternity we should be very alarmed at the condition of our soul.

[Mergath]

The idea of hell was one of the reasons I ultimately rejected Christianity.

 

When you love someone, punishment is used as a learning tool, so that the person can correct their behavior in the future. The idea of a god who supposedly loves his creation that much creating a place of eternal torture for those who don't subscribe to his particular religion is just sadistic.

 

Also, if a person in heaven could be happy knowing how many people were suffering eternally in hell with no chance for redemption, they don't deserve to be in heaven in the first place.

 

Of course, according to the bible, God supposedly commands the armies fighting in his name to commit genocide and kill women and children, so I've never really found the bible to be an accurate reflection of how I understand the divine. I think many topics, including hell, are the result of mistranslations, both accidental and intentional. The only way hell makes sense within the worldview that God supposedly created us to have is if is temporary. Everthing that is good and loving within us vehemently rejects the idea of eternal torture for a reason.

[WTMCassandra]

I will say that I do not think the Western Christianity understanding on this sort of thing is whole. Your questions (so common, I hope you know that these thoughts are common) and the typical answers I've heard come from that perspective. My upbringing and experience was from that perspective myself but the more I learn and the more I study about the early church particularly, the more I realize the perspective is skewed.

 

I'm intrigued, and I'm :bigear:. Asked with absolutely no snark but genuine curiosity: How is Western Christianity not whole in understanding this? How is the perspective skewed?

 

I would really like to hear your (or other EO) perspective on this.

[milovany]

Judy, we are eastern Orthodox and I apologize but I haven't time to post right now. I would like to give you a link though, because there are certainly others who can explain the ancient church's approach to free will much better than I can. I read this article early on in our conversion (we started that process about two years ago), and it really helped me understand much about the issue of free will / original sin / ancestral sin. The church from the beginning taught that we have free will, and that God is merciful.

[mykdsmomy]

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful responses. I always feel bad if I don't quote each individual response I get but please know I take everyone's responses to heart :)

 

I hope so too. I have some thoughts but I'm not feeling like I can articulate them well this late at night and I'm not sure I'm brave enough to do it anyway!

 

I will say that I do not think the Western Christianity understanding on this sort of thing is whole. Your questions (so common, I hope you know that these thoughts are common) and the typical answers I've heard come from that perspective. My upbringing and experience was from that perspective myself but the more I learn and the more I study about the early church particularly, the more I realize the perspective is skewed.

 

I would love to hear more of your thoughts if you feel up to it later :)

 

The possibility of spending eternity NOT in the presence of God should deeply sadden us. We should long to be in His presence for eternity. If we do not long to be in His presence for eternity we should be very alarmed at the condition of our soul.

 

It definitely saddens me but I don't agree that if it didn't, I should be alarmed at the condition of my soul. If someone who is not a Christian but still sees God as sovereign questions His definition of love, I don't think they are wrong. I think it's all very confusing even for the strongest of faith.

 

The idea of hell was one of the reasons I ultimately rejected Christianity.

 

When you love someone, punishment is used as a learning tool, so that the person can correct their behavior in the future. The idea of a god who supposedly loves his creation that much creating a place of eternal torture for those who don't subscribe to his particular religion is just sadistic.

 

Also, if a person in heaven could be happy knowing how many people were suffering eternally in hell with no chance for redemption, they don't deserve to be in heaven in the first place.

 

Of course, according to the bible, God supposedly commands the armies fighting in his name to commit genocide and kill women and children, so I've never really found the bible to be an accurate reflection of how I understand the divine. I think many topics, including hell, are the result of mistranslations, both accidental and intentional. The only way hell makes sense within the worldview that God supposedly created us to have is if is temporary. Everthing that is good and loving within us vehemently rejects the idea of eternal torture for a reason.

:grouphug: I have these same doubts at times. For the record though, I don't believe God sanctions genocide or war. I think man has twisted God's word to benefit him/herself and has gone against God in doing so.

 

Judy, we are eastern Orthodox and I apologize but I haven't time to post right now. I would like to give you a link though, because there are certainly others who can explain the ancient church's approach to free will much better than I can. I read this article early on in our conversion (we started that process about two years ago), and it really helped me understand much about the issue of free will / original sin / ancestral sin. The church from the beginning taught that we have free will, and that God is merciful.

 

Thank you! I'm going to read the article now :)

[mykdsmomy]

 

 

That is how someone feels who has rejected the love of God. It feels icky--and that is hell. And that is where they want to be. God doesn't send people there--everyone will end up in the love of God...because He is love and He is love all the time. Those who love God will receive His love as love, and those who don't will receive it as he**.

 

If you wish to PM me, feel free. I've got a busy day tomorrow, so my response might be delayed. If you are interested, the Exploring Orthodoxy Social Group has a lot of Orthodox Christians who are happy to discuss this sort of thing with you. My wrestling with the same questions brought me (joyfully) to the Orthodox Christian faith.

 

God is good and loving, and He is good and loving all the time. And the feelings you have of love toward your children are a good glimpse of how God loves you. He made us with common sense for a reason. Keep asking ... seek Christ.

 

Thank you! The funny thing is lately, I've been drawn back to my Catholic roots a bit....but even more interested in EO.

 

I don't know how to find those social groups..:001_huh: I've tried but for some reason I don't see them. Is there a link?

 

Also, I know what you're saying about us choosing to be apart from Him (like a child who goes to their room) but my bottom line is that HE created us and has the power to save us from ourselves but gives US that choice when we are sinners by nature (His design). The love I have for my child, regardless of how much they rejected me, would never stop me from protecting them. I would never give them an ultimatum or choosing me or choosing an eternity of agony. Even if they rejected me, I would still want them to be safe. (I hope I'm making sense here).

[mykdsmomy]

PS: I'm sorry this is a little chatty, but dang it, my own kid started testing me right after I lost the big response I made! Yikes!! Bedtime. :0)

 

Kind regards,

Patty Joanna

 

:grouphug: sweet dreams :)

[ThatCyndiGirl]

 

 

 

:grouphug: I have these same doubts at times. For the record though, I don't believe God sanctions genocide or war. I think man has twisted God's word to benefit him/herself and has gone against God in doing so.

 

 

 

 

 

I think she meant IN THE BIBLE. She wrote:

"Of course, according to the bible, God supposedly commands the armies fighting in his name to commit genocide and kill women and children..."

[milovany]

I don't know how to find those social groups..:001_huh: I've tried but for some reason I don't see them. Is there a link?

 

Here's the group. It's been pretty active of late. Generally speaking, to find social groups, you go up to User Control Panel (in the blue bar at the top), then find "Social Groups" in the navigation bar down the left side. From that page you can search by name (the full name of the group in question is Exploring Orthodox Christianity).

 

I loved reading Patty Joanna's response. I learned from it, too!

Edited February 6, 2011 by milovaný

[mykdsmomy]

I think she meant IN THE BIBLE. She wrote:

"Of course, according to the bible, God supposedly commands the armies fighting in his name to commit genocide and kill women and children..."

 

I thought she meant that some Christians interpret the bible to mean God commanded these things....

I am assuming this is from the OT but I'd be interested to know what verses she is referring to because I didn't even know that :confused:

[Celia]

I am a Jesus follower, Christian, whatever you want to label a person who tries to live their life like Christ did and believes Him to be their Savior.

 

I was raised Catholic so the bible wasn't studied in the same way as in a protestant upbringing.

 

Lately I've been struggling with something that I hope someone can shed some new light on.

 

God created us and is our Father. He chose to give us free will because He loves us and wants us to choose Him instead of us being robots that he programs to do His will. (following me so far?)

 

Ok, well as a mother, I have unconditional love for my children (as God has for his). I know how scary the world can be and I want to protect them from harm and from making huge mistakes. I would stop my child from running in the street because the consequence could be death.

 

How can our faith teach us that God loves us so unconditionally yet if we don't choose Him, we will live eternity in hell, lake of fire, eternal ****ation?

I can't imagine telling my child that if they make a mistake, they will spend eternity in a place that would be painful and agonizing for them...especially if I knew I could prevent that.

 

God knows better than we do the horrors of hell. How can a God who claims to love us unconditionally set us up for such eternal pain? I realize this all goes back to free will and robots (this is how it was always explained to me) but He still "programmed" us in a way. He designed us so of course there is a "robot" element to us. I have had people say "Well if you didn't have free will then you would just be like a puppet/robot and would have no choice...God loves you so much He gives you a choice and wants you to choose Him". I get that but why, if He loves us so much and knows the horrors that await us if we don't choose Him, would he not protect us? I would much rather be a robot who is blissfully happy and spends eternity with Him than a human that could screw up and wind up spending eternity in hell.

 

This used to bother me too. Not being satisfied with the answers I was getting in my church, I went hunting for answers, and they're in the Bible :) The word most commonly translated 'hell' is the grave. Simply, death is death, not eternal torment. Yes, the consequences of sin are eternal, in that you are no longer alive. The wages of sin is death. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Eternal life is something we're granted for being faithful, not something we inherently have.

 

I don't think it's possible to be a God of love, and have the majority of your creation end up suffering eternally. Seems a contradiction to me! And I was delighted to find out that the Bible didn't teach that.

 

Here's a couple verses to ponder on:

 

What happen's to people that sin?

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Eze. 18:4).

 

What is death?

"The dead know not anything...their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished" (Ecc. 9:5,6).

 

Our hope is in the resurrection:

"My redeemer liveth, and...shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: and though after my skin worms destroy this body yet in my flesh shall I see God: whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another: though my reins be consumed within me" (Job 19:25-27)

 

 

One more thing. I keep hearing "we're all sinners in need of Christ". Ok, I get that....but God created us! He created us to be sinners in need of Christ so why do I have to go around saying I'm wretched without Him? I didn't ask to be here. I didn't ask to be wretched. God created me as wretched (in this line of thinking).

 

Romans 7 is what you want to head to here. Paul goes on about how he considers himself wretched because although he tries not to, he sins anyways. It's not our fault that we all find ourselves in the state that we are in, it's our misfortune. We're dying, and we have a bent towards sin. God found a way, through Christ, that He could declare His mercy and his righteousness together. As flesh, Christ needed to die. As he didn't sin, it was right that he should be raised. In baptism, we figuratively put our flesh to death (read Romans 6 while you're at it!), and in doing so declare that God was right. We're raised in "newness of life", and "put on Christ", and God forgives us for our sins "for Christ's sake".

 

You don't need to go around saying that you're wretched, although when you find yourself continually asking for forgiveness for the same thing over and over, you just might feel that way!

 

I am just putting all this out there and I realize it's raw and probably offensive to some. (I'm seriously feeling like lightening bolts are about to strike me :001_huh: ). I just need some perspective on this.

 

I have to say that I praise God for my many many blessings. I want to spend eternity with Him. I just don't understand some of the contradictions I am hearing/seeing. Maybe I don't have a strong understanding of the bible and am using common sense to try and figure this all out?

 

Nothing wrong with using a bit of common sense...

 

"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." (Is. 1:18)

 

Keep at it. Prov. 25:2 tells us it's the glory of kings to search out a matter, and living as kings and priests in the age to come is the hope that is set before us. (Rev. 5:10)

 

 

:bigear:

 

Hope that helps. I know it's presenting something different that you were asking. I can't defend eternal torture. :001_huh: I think it's a scare tactic. I know there are verses that seem to support this, but there are (generally simple) answers for those. And plenty more verses are available to show that people don't live forever in anguish. It's a painful thing to believe in, and any loving earthy parent would die of grief watching their child be endlessly tortured; does it really make any sense that God, who IS love, who is the Father of us all, would stand for this?

[Heidi]

"The love I have for my child, regardless of how much they rejected me, would never stop me from protecting them. I would never give them an ultimatum or choosing me or choosing an eternity of agony. Even if they rejected me, I would still want them to be safe. (I hope I'm making sense here). "

 

I remember thinking along the same lines at a point in my life. I've learned that we are granted according to the desire of our hearts. If we believe that Christ can do what he says he can do, which is save us, even in our imperfect and fallen state, and we love God and desire to serve him and keep his commandments as best as we can (which means that we repent when we make a mistake), He has promised us that we will be saved. He has not made it impossible at all. We just have to believe him and do our best.

However, if we don't believe in Christ, nor do we love him or desire to follow him, have you ever thought how miserable we would be in his presence were he to bring us into his kingdom anyway? Knowing the life you lived and that you desired to follow Satan rather than God, and then to continually live in his presence under that guilt of knowledge? I think that would be a greater hell than being separated from him for eternity. I think his plan is merciful because he loves us so much.

God cannot forgive the unrepentant sinner. He cannot force us into his presence. If he could, then there would have been no need for Christ to come to earth and suffer for our sins in our behalf. We have to accept the atonement that has been offered in our behalf. There is no other way. He has not slammed the door in our face. We have chosen to walk away.

 

(Concerning our fallen state, is it difficult for you to love your child, or spouse, or parents, or neighbor, even in your imperfect and fallen state? Not at all. Nor is it impossible for us to love God and follow him in our state. I believe it is in our nature to love and our natural desires to be happy.)

 

Hope that helps a little.

[....]

I don't have any answers for you.

 

I'm doing the "read the bible in one year" thingie and I'm at the end of Leviticus. Everytime I read large segments of the Old Testament, it raises huge issues for me in my mind. :glare: There was a French theologian in the early 20th century who said to "focus on the Sermon on the Mount". I think this is probably good advice.

 

Good luck! And may your thread end nicely! :D

[kalphs]

All we have to do to choose Him is accept Jesus as our Savior. And my belief in hell is that why would God/Jesus make us live eternity with Him if we don't want to? It's really our choice. Sin is sin, and it won't keep us from Him eternally, that is why Jesus was sent to die for us. God and Jesus are the epitome of Love.

Well said Elaine! :)

[Hedgehog]

The idea of hell was one of the reasons I ultimately rejected Christianity.

 

Not all Christians believe in "hell" as a place of fiery torment. I don't.

 

I believe the Bible's word, hell, simply means the grave, or death. As Celia said, there are a number of passages which show that death is a cessation of existence. The word "hell" itself is not found in the Old Testament at all, although there are plenty of references to death.

 

Man is mortal - dying. He was made out of the dust of the ground, and was told that he would return to it when he died: Genesis 3:19.

 

The "soul" means a living thing. As I understand it, man doesn't have an immortal soul:

 

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4,20

"What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?" Psalm 89:48

"He spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence." Psalm 78:50

 

Man has no existence of any kind in death. He is dead, and knows no more than if he had never been born:

 

"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything... There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5-10

"In death there is no remembrance of thee." Psalm 6:5

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4

"The grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit can not hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee." Isaiah 38:18,19

 

Finally, Hebrews 11 contains a great teaching and promise concerning believers throughout the ages, some of whom are listed in this chapter:

 

"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." 11:39,40

 

This ties up with the teaching about the return of Christ and the coming Kingdom of God:

 

"This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:11

"Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake..." Daniel 12:2

"...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth..." John 5:29

"The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:16

 

Of course, there are several references to "hell" and "the fire of hell" in the New Testament. If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to explain how I understand these - references like Matthew 25:46; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:22-26; Revelation 14:10-11; 19:3,20; 20:10,14; 21:8. I have to go get supper right now!

[Year Round Mom]

I just told my DD5 this afternoon:

 

"I love you" doesn't mean I'm always pleased with what you do, but it does mean I'll always forgive you!

[Mergath]

I thought she meant that some Christians interpret the bible to mean God commanded these things....

I am assuming this is from the OT but I'd be interested to know what verses she is referring to because I didn't even know that :confused:

 

Yup. I'm not a biblical scholar, obviously, but it's my understanding that when King David and his army invaded Jerusalem, they killed pretty much every Jebusite in the place. Children and babies included. And they did this because God commanded it. The few Jebusites that survived were made into serfs by King Solomon (who was a real ass, in my humble opinion) and assimiliated into the Israeli culture. David offed a lot of other peoples in the region, too, as a part of God's plan to give that land to him. Whether or not you consider that genocide, I certainly have no interest in being part of a religion that had such violent and immoral beginnings.

 

Kind of refutes the idea of a loving, all-knowing God, if he created all these people- and their babies- knowing they'd be brutally killed on his orders because they didn't happen to be born into the right region to be part of God's big plan or whatever.

[SonshineLearner]

Well, not an answer to your whole question, but "free will" can be something people disagree about. It may seem like it doesn't matter... but think about this... God gives you the will to choose... between the choices he allows. Kinda like a "these are what you may choose from" .... even if you think the choice is totally yours. :)

 

And... here's the other... Believing in "original sin"... believing that we all have sin through our Father Adam.... "fair" would be automatic hell. Grace is being given the ability to accept eternal life.

 

:)

[Mynyel]

I do not believe in a literal hell. According to some hell isn't even supposed to be in the Bible. It is something else that I have a hard time saying let alone spelling but it isn't a firey place that is going to torment some forever.

 

That isn't the God I know and love. Now do we all go to Heaven? No, that *is* clear in the Bible. But hell? Nah, not for me.

 

I don't believe in hell at all. I *so* believe that there are going to be consequences for our actions. Even with free will we can't just do what we want when we want. Even by man's law there are punishments. What God's punishments may be I can't say nor presume to know.

 

This is my take on it in a nutshell. I frequent tentmaker.org and read the book "Pagan Christianity" if your interested in a different way of looking at the faith check those out. :)

[elizabeth]

Yup. I'm not a biblical scholar, obviously, but it's my understanding that when King David and his army invaded Jerusalem, they killed pretty much every Jebusite in the place. Children and babies included. And they did this because God commanded it. The few Jebusites that survived were made into serfs by King Solomon (who was a real ass, in my humble opinion) and assimiliated into the Israeli culture. David offed a lot of other peoples in the region, too, as a part of God's plan to give that land to him. Whether or not you consider that genocide, I certainly have no interest in being part of a religion that had such violent and immoral beginnings.

 

Kind of refutes the idea of a loving, all-knowing God, if he created all these people- and their babies- knowing they'd be brutally killed on his orders because they didn't happen to be born into the right region to be part of God's big plan or whatever.

 

It is logically impossible to be all powerful and all knowing and permit genocide. The mental gymnastics are enough to make my head spin. Well stated. Of course there are many xns who do not read the Bible literally at all. In fact I never knew anyone did until I started reading this board.

[JessieC]

I don't believe that a loving God would doom anybody to everlasting Hell. The idea seems quite preposterous to me, to be honest. I'm not a Christian, and I don't believe in this God at all. To me, God is the powerful force of nature that wants life in general to thrive, but it is not conscious of humans' beliefs and actions.

[Mergath]

It is logically impossible to be all powerful and all knowing and permit genocide. The mental gymnastics are enough to make my head spin. Well stated. Of course there are many xns who do not read the Bible literally at all. In fact I never knew anyone did until I started reading this board.

 

I think there is certainly a lot of good in the bible, and that Jesus was one of many people who helped bring a bit more enlightenment to humanity. But how people can take the bible as the true, inerrant word of God without feeling at least some revulsion at the events in the OT is just beyond me.

[Gooblink]

It is logically impossible to be all powerful and all knowing and permit genocide. The mental gymnastics are enough to make my head spin. Well stated. Of course there are many xns who do not read the Bible literally at all. In fact I never knew anyone did until I startedn reading this board.

 

Maybe not if you were all powerful and all knowing. :D I mean, regardless of your beliefs, aren't all mortals guaranteed a death sentence?

 

Yet...here we are stuck in this life of toil and suffering and Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so.

 

Maybe if we dig deeper into the OT we might find that God never sanctioned genocide, but it was necessary in order for the nation of Israel to remain intact to bring forth Messiah.

 

Could be that God didn't condone Hitler's extermination of 6 million Jews, but it was necessary to awaken the world and bring the nation of Israel back on the map, because Israel's part in the story isn't over, yet.

 

He so loved the world that he gave his only son so that whoever believes will not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

I believe that son was God himself, come to earth in the form of man to live as one of us - our kinsman. He saw happiness, sorrow, birth and death. He laughed and cried. Then, he was tortured and left to die hanging from a tree, or a cross, depending on how you read it.

 

Are we going to demand more from God than that?

 

He knows what suffering is. I'm sure he knew what suffering was in OT times, too, and has each one of those lives securely with him in eternity.

 

Could he have done it all differently? I suppose, yes, given he's omnipotent and all. But, as the prophets ask, who is the lump of clay to question the potter's motives? Were we present for the formation of the universe? Did God seek our advice before he proceeded with creation?

 

Another thing is, we haven't gotten to the end of the story. I gotta believe God won't leave any question unanswered.

 

:)

[Mergath]

Maybe if we dig deeper into the OT we might find that God never sanctioned genocide, but it was necessary in order for the nation of Israel to remain intact to bring forth Messiah.

 

Could be that God didn't condone Hitler's extermination of 6 million Jews, but it was necessary to awaken the world and bring the nation of Israel back on the map, because Israel's part in the story isn't over, yet.

 

 

Or maybe, people three thousand years ago were constantly at war because their leaders all wanted an empire instead of just a city or region to rule, and blaming it on the mandate of their favorite deity was the easiest way to justify that without the populace rioting.

 

And there really is no justification, if God is all-powerful and loving, for the horrors that so many in Africa have had to live through.

 

Nothing, including genocide, is "necessary" if God is truly all-powerful. And if God is love, it just shouldn't happen, period.

 

Also, I've never thought it was much of a sacrifice to die knowing that you'll be resurrected and go straight to heaven afterwards. There are many people in the world who live every day in pain and starvation, and then die for nothing. The bible doesn't have much to say about their sacrifice.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Mergath

[Smithie]

"Could be that God didn't condone Hitler's extermination of 6 million Jews, but it was necessary to awaken the world and bring the nation of Israel back on the map, because Israel's part in the story isn't over, yet."

 

Look, I don't know how to break this to you, but my people have no secret weapon that will allow 18,000 of us to defeat all the Arab armies, and meanhile, zoning regulations forbid us from rebuilding the Temple. ;)

 

I'm kidding - kind of. I don't think that everybody on earth has to worship in the fashion of my people in order to receive God's love and grace, and I'm mystified that this idea has become so central in Protestant Christianity. I think that God reveals Himself in different ways to different people, and if Jesus is your path to God then that's great, but worrying about the rest of us is probably not a good use of your spiritual energy. Nor is worrying about your kids - they have their own, unique and wonderful, path to walk with God.

[Gooblink]

but worrying about the rest of us is probably not a good use of your spiritual energy. Nor is worrying about your kids - they have their own' date=' unique and wonderful, path to walk with God[/b'].

 

I agree with you, there. :001_smile:

[Georgiana Daniels]

I frequent tentmaker.org and read the book "Pagan Christianity" if your interested in a different way of looking at the faith check those out. :)

 

I, too, have been reading this site in answer to some of my questions about Universal Reconciliation. UR would ultimately answer the OP's connundrum about a loving God vs eternal da**ation, IMO.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

I am a Jesus follower, Christian, whatever you want to label a person who tries to live their life like Christ did and believes Him to be their Savior.

 

 

 

If we did not have a choose then we cannot love. If God had no risk of loss it would not be love. I think you know this. It is the way it is because it has to be the way it is. We like to focus on Heaven and Hell but that is God's business not ours. Who knows how it will be in the end? Only God. Anything else is just making stuff up. The important thing is in your first sentence, "to live ... like Christ." The rest is just a distraction.

 

As for as violence in the Bible goes, this is an Orthodox priests understanding of it: http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/war_and_violence_in_the_ot

[LittleIzumi]

"The love I have for my child, regardless of how much they rejected me, would never stop me from protecting them. I would never give them an ultimatum or choosing me or choosing an eternity of agony. Even if they rejected me, I would still want them to be safe. (I hope I'm making sense here). "

 

I remember thinking along the same lines at a point in my life. I've learned that we are granted according to the desire of our hearts. If we believe that Christ can do what he says he can do, which is save us, even in our imperfect and fallen state, and we love God and desire to serve him and keep his commandments as best as we can (which means that we repent when we make a mistake), He has promised us that we will be saved. He has not made it impossible at all. We just have to believe him and do our best.

However, if we don't believe in Christ, nor do we love him or desire to follow him, have you ever thought how miserable we would be in his presence were he to bring us into his kingdom anyway? Knowing the life you lived and that you desired to follow Satan rather than God, and then to continually live in his presence under that guilt of knowledge? I think that would be a greater hell than being separated from him for eternity. I think his plan is merciful because he loves us so much.

God cannot forgive the unrepentant sinner. He cannot force us into his presence. If he could, then there would have been no need for Christ to come to earth and suffer for our sins in our behalf. We have to accept the atonement that has been offered in our behalf. There is no other way. He has not slammed the door in our face. We have chosen to walk away.

 

(Concerning our fallen state, is it difficult for you to love your child, or spouse, or parents, or neighbor, even in your imperfect and fallen state? Not at all. Nor is it impossible for us to love God and follow him in our state. I believe it is in our nature to love and our natural desires to be happy.)

 

Hope that helps a little.

 

:iagree:

 

(This will make no sense as I wrote it very late, lol. Sorry!) To me, hell is as an OP put it--separation from God. Not some fiery pit of pain. Just separation from God (as the death in the Garden of Eden was separation from God, again). And that door, as they say, is locked from the inside. God will not write you off forever for a mistake or even many, many, many mistakes. It's like when your kid messes up. You can't, and wouldn't want to, force him to act perfectly. You teach them & guide them & love them & then you let them make their own decisions (as adults). And when they mess up, you hurt but you can't erase what they did. They have to face some consequence for it, but you are still there for them, full of love. Even if they keep messing up, you keep loving them & waiting/hoping that they will learn from it this time and realize what they need to change. You can't make them change, and if you could then they wouldn't be your kid anymore. They would be a robot. They have to learn & choose & accept certain consequences as part of growing up & becoming an adult, taking that next step in their development. That is what I envision God to be doing. We are here to learn & grow & prove ourselves. How can we do that if we are not tested and refined by fire, as it were? Those who separate themselves from God eternally do it willingly and willfully. For those who want to come back, there is repentance and grace, Jesus' atonement and our own honest sorrow and change to move ourselves back on His path and into His light. He doesn't kick people out for where they were born, or who raised them, or for not being perfect. None of us are! We're working on it ;). He wants us to do the best we can with what we are given (and with what He gave us), and to repent when we do realize that we've messed up. (I also believe we keep learning & growing after we die, and those who didn't learn about Christ while alive will understand & be able to choose, and they will be judged on how they lived with the knowledge they did have, not on what they could not have known.) The only way to end up in "hell," separated from God, is to put yourself there on purpose.

[mykdsmomy]

I'm sorry I'm just getting back to this thread now. I was away all day. Thank you again, everyone, for responding. I appreciate everyone's input.

 

 

Hope that helps. I know it's presenting something different that you were asking. I can't defend eternal torture. :001_huh: I think it's a scare tactic. I know there are verses that seem to support this, but there are (generally simple) answers for those. And plenty more verses are available to show that people don't live forever in anguish. It's a painful thing to believe in, and any loving earthy parent would die of grief watching their child be endlessly tortured; does it really make any sense that God, who IS love, who is the Father of us all, would stand for this?

 

Thank you so much for the great references. I will read through them all.

 

 

If we did not have a choose then we cannot love. If God had no risk of loss it would not be love. I think you know this. It is the way it is because it has to be the way it is. We like to focus on Heaven and Hell but that is God's business not ours. Who knows how it will be in the end? Only God. Anything else is just making stuff up. The important thing is in your first sentence, "to live ... like Christ." The rest is just a distraction.

 

As for as violence in the Bible goes, this is an Orthodox priests understanding of it: http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/war_and_violence_in_the_ot

 

This makes sense, however, then we are talking about God creating us for His pleasure and wanting us to choose Him. He gives us many chances, etc...but ultimately He still created us with weakness and the tendency towards sin. Ultimate love to me would be God creating us without the need for hurt, pain, suffering. He wouldn't give us sin as a choice because sin causes pain.

I realize He wants us to choose Him. I realize it pains him to see us sin. I keep thinking of this analogy of me standing across a busy street from my 3 year old and telling them to stay still and not cross because of traffic. I know my three year old would be incapable of realizing the consequences of his/her actions if he/she crossed that road, so why would I set him/her up for that? God stands across the street and asks us to stay still....yet there are so many temptations for us in life that cause us to sin. I realize this all sounds jumbled and I apologize for that. I am going to check out the podcast you linked. Thanks

[mykdsmomy]

 

And there really is no justification, if God is all-powerful and loving, for the horrors that so many in Africa have had to live through.

 

Nothing, including genocide, is "necessary" if God is truly all-powerful. And if God is love, it just shouldn't happen, period.

.

 

 

I think you summed up exactly what I've been trying to say here. I can see all the wonders that God has created. I can celebrate and praise Him for his many blessings.....I know love because of suffering and sacrifice (Jesus). However, Why didn't God just bypass all of the pain and suffering and make us angels? I realize here is where the robot argument comes into play but honestly, we can still be considered robots because God programmed us a certain way. He did not give us all the knowledge. We have limited choices based on how He created us.

 

I am not saying that I have lost my faith or wish to leave my faith. I believe in God. I just have always struggled with this aspect of it all. Especially now as a parent. I parent from my heart. I'm not big on punishments. Maybe it's harder for me to understand God because I have a fantasy idea of love? :confused:

[Wayfaring Stranger]

However, Why didn't God just bypass all of the pain and suffering and make us angels? I realize here is where the robot argument comes into play but honestly, we can still be considered robots because God programmed us a certain way. He did not give us all the knowledge. We have limited choices based on how He created us.

 

 

 

God did not make us like angels or robots because he is a Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). Angles do not have bodies and robots do not have spirits but God does. We are the only creature that has mind (Father), bodies (Son) and spirit (Holy Spirit). Without one of these three things we cannot be in communion with God.

 

I do not ask God why he lets the people in Africa suffer, because I am afraid he will ask me the same question. There are things that God cannot do. He cannot change the human will. If He is "all powerful" and in control of everything than we would have to say he is doing a poor job but we have free will and he cannot change our will. We are to change ourselves not change God.

[LittleIzumi]

I think you summed up exactly what I've been trying to say here. I can see all the wonders that God has created. I can celebrate and praise Him for his many blessings.....I know love because of suffering and sacrifice (Jesus). However, Why didn't God just bypass all of the pain and suffering and make us angels? I realize here is where the robot argument comes into play but honestly, we can still be considered robots because God programmed us a certain way. He did not give us all the knowledge. We have limited choices based on how He created us.

 

Because we need to learn & grow here in order to take that next step, to be ready/worthy to be anything angelic. I do believe that there are some people who are pure enough to not need the trial by fire/proving themselves in whatever situation they are placed in here, but many of them are taken back to heaven quickly as a result (like little children who die do go to heaven). God can't force us to be ready to be angelic or godly. We have to learn how to develop that truly empathetic side, and we won't learn anything sitting around sipping tropical drinks & eating bonbons ;). What doesn't kill us makes us stronger, eh? And that's the whole point.

[Garga]

However, Why didn't God just bypass all of the pain and suffering and make us angels?

 

I've wondered that, too. I've wondered why there had to be a blood sacrifice. We hear all the time, "Jesus shed his blood for you! There had to be a sacrifice for sins!" Why? God made the rules. Why did he choose for there to be blood?

 

This is my own theory and I don't know if I'm right, but I think it goes back to the angels:

 

The angels were practically perfect in every way. And they knew it. Lucifer thought he was just the best thing ever...probably even better than God. And he convinced 1/3 of the other angels that they were better, too. So, they tried to fight God and take over and he quickly and easily kicked them out of heaven (because they weren't better. They were so full of pride they forgot that they were the created beings and not the creator.)

 

I think that when God made people, he didn't want them to get the same ridiculous ideas as Satan (that they were better than God.) So, he made us unperfect on purpose.

 

And he chose the sacrifice of blood just because it's so horrifying. That way, we can see that we're not perfect and better than God (like those angels thought), and we'll see that our sins really are very bad (because the blood sacrifice horrifies us.) And this keeps us from acting like we're better than the creator and reminds us that we are just the creation.

 

And, even though the blood sacrifice was horrifying, the important thing to remember is that God didn't want US to have to shed our blood. Yes, it was horrifying, but he was the one who went through it. So, we're imperfect to keep our pride in check, and reminded that our imperfections are serious business because of the blood sacrifice.

 

That's just my opinion. I might be very, very wrong.

 

And I don't know the answers to many of your other questions. They are worth asking and pondering and searching, however.

[LittleIzumi]

As a non-LDS Christian I disagree with this. I'm pretty mainstream Protestant so I'll say that everyone I know (except my family who is Catholic) believes that you can never do anything to earn or be worthy God's grace. It is a gift. If we could earn it, Jesus didn't have to die. I realize LDSaints believe otherwise.

 

 

Oh, we absolutely believe we need Jesus--without him, we could try to repent every minute of every day but it wouldn't be enough. We're a "saved by grace after all that you can do" lot--you have to get as close as you personally can, and then Christ is there to bridge the gap. The gift of freedom from physical & spiritual death is given unto us by grace, freely. What your relationship is with God in that hereafter is up to you.:001_smile:

 

While we're on an LDS tangent :tongue_smilie: I'll throw out a quote or two. While I understand it may not line up exactly with some CC religions, this is what I believe on the subject.

 

"No pain that we suffer, no trial that we experience is wasted. It ministers to our education, to the development of such qualities as patience, faith, fortitude, and humility. All that we suffer … builds up our characters, purifies our hearts, expands our souls, and makes us more tender and charitable, more worthy to be called the children of God … and it is through sorrow and suffering, toil and tribulation, that we gain the education which will make us more like our Father...." (Orson F. Whitney)

 

"And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell, shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience and shall be for thy good." (Doctrine & Covenants)

[Dolphin]

There is a poem that always helps me when I am feeling overwhelmed by things that just don't completely add up.

 

The Weaver

My Life is but a weaving

between my Lord and me;

I cannot choose the colors

He worketh steadily.

 

Oft times He weaveth sorrow

And I, in foolish pride,

Forget He sees the upper,

And I the under side.

 

Not til the loom is silent

And the shuttles cease to fly,

Shall God unroll the canvas

And explain the reason why.

 

The dark threads are as needful

In the Weaver's skillful hand,

As the threads of gold and silver

In the pattern He has planned.

 

He knows, He loves, He cares,

Nothing this truth can dim.

He gives His very best to those

Who leave the choice with Him.

 

The other thing that has helped me is the book The Shack (most people either love it or hate it. I loved it). It is a work of fiction, and is not a book from God, and that has to be kept in mind while reading it. It helped me to understand that as there is one way that this author found to explain a lot of questions, that there are many other possibilities out there. It helped me to keep my faith, without having all the answers. I really like what it said about free will though. Just because God knows you so well that he knows what you will do, does that take away any of you freedom?

 

Hope that helps

Nicole

[mykdsmomy]

. There are things that God cannot do. He cannot change the human will. If He is "all powerful" and in control of everything than we would have to say he is doing a poor job but we have free will and he cannot change our will. We are to change ourselves not change God.

 

We have free will but he has ultimate control over everything. He has the ability to change our will but he chooses not to. Are you saying that he doesn't have the ability to do that? (I just want to clarify because maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying :001_smile: )

 

I

And he chose the sacrifice of blood just because it's so horrifying. .

 

But why did He have to choose any suffering at all? Why not just make us with no ability to feel jealousy or anger? Why not just make us with the ability to feel love? Again this goes back to the robot argument but my bottom line is: If God loves us and wants us to be with Him forever, then why didn't he make us so? Why Why Why did he give us sin and weakness and pain? Why not just skip right to heaven? He knows that not all of us will choose Him and yet He still allows us this free will that is detrimental to some souls? We could all only know love and that wonderful feeling because instead of making us as we are, He could have made us with pure love in our hearts. (I hope I'm making sense here and please know I'm not arguing with you or anyone else here, I'm just trying to understand this as best as I can)

 

There is a poem that always helps me when I am feeling overwhelmed by things that just don't completely add up.

 

The Weaver

My Life is but a weaving

between my Lord and me;

I cannot choose the colors

He worketh steadily.

 

Oft times He weaveth sorrow

And I, in foolish pride,

Forget He sees the upper,

And I the under side.

 

Not til the loom is silent

And the shuttles cease to fly,

Shall God unroll the canvas

And explain the reason why.

 

The dark threads are as needful

In the Weaver's skillful hand,

As the threads of gold and silver

In the pattern He has planned.

 

He knows, He loves, He cares,

Nothing this truth can dim.

He gives His very best to those

Who leave the choice with Him.

 

The other thing that has helped me is the book The Shack (most people either love it or hate it. I loved it). It is a work of fiction, and is not a book from God, and that has to be kept in mind while reading it. It helped me to understand that as there is one way that this author found to explain a lot of questions, that there are many other possibilities out there. It helped me to keep my faith, without having all the answers. I really like what it said about free will though. Just because God knows you so well that he knows what you will do, does that take away any of you freedom?

 

Hope that helps

Nicole

 

Thank you for the poem. I've read that before but it's been a while :)

 

 

Thank you again everyone for responding. I'm not trying to argue with anyone and I hope you all know that. You've all given me a lot to think about and consider. :grouphug:

[milovany]

.

[Mergath]

I think you summed up exactly what I've been trying to say here. I can see all the wonders that God has created. I can celebrate and praise Him for his many blessings.....I know love because of suffering and sacrifice (Jesus). However, Why didn't God just bypass all of the pain and suffering and make us angels? I realize here is where the robot argument comes into play but honestly, we can still be considered robots because God programmed us a certain way. He did not give us all the knowledge. We have limited choices based on how He created us.

 

I am not saying that I have lost my faith or wish to leave my faith. I believe in God. I just have always struggled with this aspect of it all. Especially now as a parent. I parent from my heart. I'm not big on punishments. Maybe it's harder for me to understand God because I have a fantasy idea of love? :confused:

 

In my experience, if your instincts are telling you there's something wrong with the world, they're usually right. However one views God, he gave us minds and emotions for a reason, and if they're screaming at you, saying, "No, that's not right!" it's for a reason. I know that when I was a teenager attending a very strict, conservative church of my mom's choosing, which taught that every single thing that happens is God's plan, trying to reconcile the idea of God as love with the atrocities of the world nearly drove me off the deep end. It's illogical, and we humans view our world through a lens of logic. So the idea of God making our brains work in that specific way, and then making so many aspects of his own existence seem so illogical, would be... strange. And rather counterintuitive.

[Gooblink]

In my experience, if your instincts are telling you there's something wrong with the world, they're usually right. However one views God, he gave us minds and emotions for a reason, and if they're screaming at you, saying, "No, that's not right!" it's for a reason. I know that when I was a teenager attending a very strict, conservative church of my mom's choosing, which taught that every single thing that happens is God's plan, trying to reconcile the idea of God as love with the atrocities of the world nearly drove me off the deep end. It's illogical, and we humans view our world through a lens of logic. So the idea of God making our brains work in that specific way, and then making so many aspects of his own existence seem so illogical, would be... strange. And rather counterintuitive.

 

You are so right, Mergath.

 

As much as I loathed hearing from Christians that it comes down to faith, I've learned that at some point...it comes down to faith. :)

 

The Bible tells us repeatedly that God's ways are not our ways, that the hearts and minds of men will view God's ways as foolish and nonsense, that we are not to trust our hearts (I agree with your 'instinct' comment, though, as I view that as a God prompt).

 

My personal theological beliefs don't line up with any denomination on all points (probably few peoples' really do...because of those God prompts). I think that, even among the people I go to church with, there's a message of 'accept Christ or be ****ed.' I don't believe, based on my own walk with God, that He works that way. While I do believe that Christ (God in the flesh) died for us and is the way, truth and life, I also know that even during my raging anti-God, anti-Christian years I was not ****ed. Although I found the leap from atheism to deism rather easy, intellectually, it was a whole 'nother high-jump/crash landing to the feet of Christ.

 

Someone cautioned against trying to convert people. I whole-heartedly agree! I'm not in the business of trying to "save" people - God's got that. However, if I can share a simple gospel and some of my personal testimony and it, in some small way, helps another.

 

God has proved His existence and love to me over and over again. We still have big questions: why does He allow suffering? Again, we all suffer, we all die. That's the way God chose to bring us through the sanctification process. In the end, I just have to accept that He knows what He's doing better than I.

 

It comes down to faith...trust...foolishness to many.

[Xuzi]

Oh, we absolutely believe we need Jesus--without him, we could try to repent every minute of every day but it wouldn't be enough. We're a "saved by grace after all that you can do" lot--you have to get as close as you personally can, and then Christ is there to bridge the gap. The gift of freedom from physical & spiritual death is given unto us by grace, freely. What your relationship is with God in that hereafter is up to you.:001_smile:

 

While we're on an LDS tangent :tongue_smilie: I'll throw out a quote or two. While I understand it may not line up exactly with some CC religions, this is what I believe on the subject.

 

"No pain that we suffer, no trial that we experience is wasted. It ministers to our education, to the development of such qualities as patience, faith, fortitude, and humility. All that we suffer … builds up our characters, purifies our hearts, expands our souls, and makes us more tender and charitable, more worthy to be called the children of God … and it is through sorrow and suffering, toil and tribulation, that we gain the education which will make us more like our Father...." (Orson F. Whitney)

 

"And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell, shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience and shall be for thy good." (Doctrine & Covenants)

As a fellow LDS'er, I'm going to disagree with how you interpreted the scripture I put in bold. ;) It's not "get as close as you can, and then Jesus makes up the rest. We're supposed to try, BUT we will never be able to accomplish much without Him. We are to *include Him* in our efforts to keep the commandments, not keep the commandments relying only on our own strength, and then have him pick up the rest. It's to be a partnership, not a relay. ;) When I read that scripture, to understand it better, I sometimes read it as "for it is by God that we are saved, after all the medical intervention we can do". When someone has a pneumonia or cancer, or any other illness, it is God who heals us. We still take medicines, do chemo, do whatever we can within our own power to facilitate healing, but God gets the credit for the success, because HE made those medical interventions possible. Because HE alone can heal us.

 

/LDS Tanget. ;)