Are Teachers Really This Illogical?

[Saille]

I heard this story on the news tonight.

 

I blogged about it if you really want to read a rant, but in the interest of full disclosure, I use some strong language.

 

The reason it's still worth posting on this board when I've already spoken my piece is because, while there may be vehement disagreements on this board, I can depend on some well-worded arguments. And I want to know if anyone thinks that teachers are seriously incapable of differentiating between enforcing an anti-bullying policy and endorsing homosexuality. When I heard the story, my initial reaction was, "Come on, seriously? That reasoning would not fly on the boards." But maybe I'm wrong. And even if I'm not, I find I want to read your words.

[DawnM]

No, they aren't.

 

I will go read your blog now.

 

The whole thing gets me REALLY, REALLY UPSET!

Edited October 27, 2010 by DawnM

[songbirdie]

The teachers are totally illogical if they can't discern between anti-bullying and gay-endorsement of curriculum. This quote from the article expresses my opinion on the matter:

 

"There is no confusion on this," says Barb Anderson, who works for the Minnesota Family Council, an evangelical group. "Any teacher can stop bullying in its tracks — and should."

 

They should stop bullying regardless of whether the "bully-ee" is gay, straight, handicapped, popular, or whoever they may be. This should not have been a *gay* issue; it should have been a bullying issue.

[Daisy]

My husband's stance. Bullying is wrong. Period. Regardless of the reason. He would never allow it in his classroom.

 

His district doesn't have a neutrality policy in regards to their curriculum (Hey, this is California) and I can't believe any teacher would claim that as their reason for allowing bullying to happen. Sounds like baloney to me.

 

There is just no way hubby would put up with that type of behavior.

 

And for the record his religious convictions are just as conservative as mine are but neither of us is going to engage in the equivalent of a religious inquisition.

[T'smom]

Of course teachers are not really that illogical. I think the main reason that teachers don't step in is because the bullies do not do it in the presence of an adult. They can't stop it if they don't see it. A lot of times the parents don't know what's going on. If the child being bullied isn't telling their parents, they're not telling the teacher either.

 

If the teacher is fond of the bully, they might have a hard time believing that they have done/said the things that they've done/said if they don't witness it themselves.

 

BTW, I didn't think the language in your blog was strong enough! Especially if the teachers did, in fact, know what was going on.

[Rivka]

I would say no. The teachers aren't failing to understand that the "neutrality policy" allows them to stop bullying, they are using the policy as an excuse because they don't want to stop bullying.

 

And that rationalization from the Family Research Council is disgusting. Being bullied, rejected, and despised doesn't make kids depressed - they're depressed because even they know how horrible they are? Feh. There's no language strong enough.

[jenL]

Bullying is WRONG. PERIOD. There should be no need to discuss it further.

[Saille]

And that rationalization from the Family Research Council is disgusting. Being bullied, rejected, and despised doesn't make kids depressed - they're depressed because even they know how horrible they are? Feh. There's no language strong enough.

 

Then they contrast it with this:

 

But Warren Throckmorton, an evangelical who teaches psychology at Grove City College in Pennsylvania, says there is a problem with this argument: Many of the kids who commit suicide aren't gay.

 

"The common element is not gay identification," he says. "The common element is anti-gay harassment. And so it isn't a matter of them being gay and unhappy. It's a matter of others tormenting them with gay slurs."

 

Throckmorton says a growing number of Christian conservatives are questioning the hard-line theological approach. He has created a curriculum called "Golden Rule Pledge," which can be used by churches to prevent bullying.

 

Albert Mohler at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., criticized Christian conservatives for "homophobia" and their "glib assurances that gay persons simply choose to be gay." And earlier this month, Exodus International — a group that believes people can be freed from homosexuality through Jesus Christ — pulled its support for the Day of Truth. In an e-mail, Exodus President Alan Chambers says he now believes it is better for Christians' kids to show "biblical tolerance and grace" than to condemn.

 

Which makes me even angrier that teachers would hide behind the neutrality argument. I don't think the "they don't see it argument" will do, either. I know kids can be sneaky. But that story illustrated that there are schools that have failed to establish a solid anti-bullying culture. And a particularly horrible example I witnessed in high school was happening right in front of the teaching staff. I don't think that was exceptional. Edited October 27, 2010 by Saille

[patchfire]

I would say no. The teachers aren't failing to understand that the "neutrality policy" allows them to stop bullying, they are using the policy as an excuse because they don't want to stop bullying.

 

I think that this is too often the case. Even once, it would be too often, but I can look back at the people I knew in school. Many of the ones I would consider bullies? Are now teachers.

[Saille]

I think that this is too often the case. Even once, it would be too often, but I can look back at the people I knew in school. Many of the ones I would consider bullies? Are now teachers.

 

I would describe that as "big fish in a little pond" addiction. It's so weird, b/c I've known plenty of bullied or "uncool" kids who became teachers as a public service to future geeks. I wonder how many people teach cheek-by-jowl with their former bullies.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Well, I will point out the elephant in the rooom. It is my personal opinion that some teachers, due to their evangelical xian stance, believe that gay kids deserve to be bullied so they use the neutrality thing as a cover.

 

"See, I can't step in and stop it since the District has this policy!" :glare:

[Saille]

To be fair, some people who are averting their eyes are probably areligious bigots, or conflict averse. There were certainly religious people taking stands against this sort of behavior in the story. And I attended a synagogue last weekend and listened to a rabbi speak with passion on this very issue, and the responsibility of every person to speak directly to the bully about the behavior.

[Parrothead]

Honestly I think these teachers are hiding behind this district's policy.

 

It wouldn't be anything for the bully to turn from the gay, the disabled, the "strange" targets and turn their bullying to the teachers. Keyed cars, slashed tires, Molotov cocktails through the window of home.

[IsabelC]

I would surmise that since many teachers are chronically overworked and/or overstressed, some of them take the easy option when they can. Bullying is a difficult issue to address. By that I mean, it's easy to have anti bullying rhetoric in school documents, and easy to talk about not tolerating it, but difficult if not impossible to actually supervize the kids adequately to stop it happening. Additionally, some bullies are so darn scary that they probably scare the teachers too. And some bullies have scary parents whom teachers may not wish to confront. So it may well be easier to take any excuse available to avoid dealing with the whole thing.

[Saille]

Did I ever tell you about how my students stalked my maternity leave sub? Remind me on my next stressy day how much better I like homeschooling. Even so.

[joannqn]

Did I ever tell you about how my students stalked my maternity leave sub? Remind me on my next stressy day how much better I like homeschooling. Even so.

 

 

My classmates in an art class drove a sub to quit mid-class.

[Starr]

I have a child that was bullied at a church group. There were plenty of parents around. Sometimes it's really sneaky and adults just don't want to believe it.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I've tried to write this a couple times.

 

What I think it comes down to is that JUST stopping individual incidents that are caught and punishing the perpetrators is not enough (however, if any teacher does NOT do those things, they most certainly are in the WRONG!). Teachers are in a position they need to be able to effectively discuss it with a class and/or student. They need to be able to do it without being inappropriate in any direction. What they would tell their own 13yo is often going to have to be different than what they discuss with their 7th grade class.

 

I honestly don't think that HAS to be that difficult though! It simply requires forethought. Any teacher knows before they even choose that career that there will be bullying. They can guess the top reasons. They *should* figure how they are going to state themselves and how they will lead a discussion as necessary well before they step into a classroom. I most certainly have.

Edited October 27, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[Harriet Vane]

I find that a horrifying large percentage of people will rationalize away the need for intervention in many areas of life.

 

[All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

 

The issue is really not whether or not being gay is morally right. The issue is stopping aggressive behavior.

[Saille]

I honestly don't think that HAS to be that difficult though! It simply requires forethought. Any teacher knows before they even choose that career that there will be bullying. They can guess the top reasons. They *should* figure how they are going to state themselves and how they will lead a discussion as necessary well before they step into a classroom. I most certainly have.

 

:iagree:

[smrtmama]

I think that this is too often the case. Even once, it would be too often, but I can look back at the people I knew in school. Many of the ones I would consider bullies? Are now teachers.

 

Yep, I've encountered quite a few teacher-bullies, both through my own school career and through Captain Science's years in school. Of course people like that will condone bullying, as long as they like the bully and dislike the victim.

[Old Dominion Heather]

Honestly I think these teachers are hiding behind this district's policy.

 

It wouldn't be anything for the bully to turn from the gay, the disabled, the "strange" targets and turn their bullying to the teachers. Keyed cars, slashed tires, Molotov cocktails through the window of home.

 

I think that Parrothead is correct here. When I was teaching, I would intervene when we saw it happen, but short of telling a student to never leave your sight, there is not a whole lot teachers can do.

 

You can tell a bully to stop, and they just smirk at you and wait until the next class.

 

I do think that many teachers don't intervene because of fear of retaliation. I had my classroom and personal belongings trashed and stolen for daring to call out a "queen bee". Her mom had me pulled into the principal's office and did their best to have me fired. I think her exact words were "You are straight from hell!" I think my reply was "I'm sorry that you feel that way."

[Saille]

But this is exactly like what's being discussed on the media thread this morning. If adults *as a group* do not endorse and inculcate an anti-bullying culture, teachers who call out bullying are just one voice in a storm. And I'm tired of it. I'm tired of Queen Bees' parents equating bullying with leadership skills. I'm tired of the bullying starting up again the second you're not looking. The bottom line is, if every teacher and every student was consistently expected to call it out when they saw it...if we held the staff and student body as a whole responsible for doing nothing, then we'd have all the eyes we needed. I'm tired of bystander syndrome, and we can't expect the kids to stand up when we don't model or support that behavior.

[Perry]

I think that Parrothead is correct here. When I was teaching, I would intervene when we saw it happen, but short of telling a student to never leave your sight, there is not a whole lot teachers can do.

 

You can tell a bully to stop, and they just smirk at you and wait until the next class.

 

My son had some problems with bullying last year. I was very happy with the way the school handled it.

 

I contacted the school counselor and let them know what was going on. The next day, they separated ds from this other boy, so they no longer sat at the same table in classes. At the end of each class, the boy had to stay in class until mod change was over and everyone else was in their next class. When that wasn't feasible, he was escorted from one place to another by a staff member. He was made to eat lunch in the presence of a teacher. The parents were called, and there were ongoing meetings with them.

 

In short, the kid was babysat from the moment he came to school until he left. Eventually, he was given some more freedom. He never bothered my son again.

 

There are things that can be done, but the school has to want to do it. I'm sure it was a pain for them, but it was worth it.

[BMW]

I think that in some cases, Old Dominion Heather is right on.

 

I think that if a school system were really serious about dealing with this, they would be more proactive. For example, our elementary school has zero tolerance for bullying and zero tolerance for discrimination. The older the children get, though, the harder it is to enforce... The middle school has a plan for working through these issues, but only if the students will speak up. And many of them do.

 

When it comes to middle school and high school, I think that being proactive means that it is taught and made CLEAR that under no circumstances is a student to be made fun of for s@xual preference and/or religious choice. And then the school has to back it up. In the classroom, teachers might catch it and the student given a detention. Then if it was caught again, the student might get suspended and third time expelled. But, why would the school WANT to do that? They get money for that student! Other times it would be harder to catch - in halls, out in the yards... they have to hear it or have it reported to deal with it.

 

I was just telling my daughter about working part time in a major retail store. All employees know from the first day of training that if they joke or comment on a persons "preferences", they will lose their job. Period. And guess what? Since we all want our jobs, we don't! I work with all variety of people, all ages 16-60+ and we are all friendly and supportive in our work environment. It is actually very pleasant. I would not give my opinion on "preferences" to anyone there while employed. I would think twice about giving my opinion to a co-worker while OFF the clock and not on the premesis. I know not to judge another's lifestyle because if I do, my job ends. So, I simply live my faith.

 

So, if that's the way the workplace works... how are these kids being brought up in schools that allow the bullying going to transition?

 

And a random thought... some kids also KNOW the consequences and STILL break the rules... over and over. One of those kids is my son. I don't get it. I don't like it. I think some kids would just continue to bully or find ways to bully and not get in trouble. You can have the best of plans and there is that one kid...

 

But, if teachers KNOW and don't get involved, shame on them! I can "hear" that they don't want to for this or that reason, but that doesn't make it OKAY.

[Mejane]

Well, I will point out the elephant in the rooom. It is my personal opinion that some teachers, due to their evangelical xian stance, believe that gay kids deserve to be bullied so they use the neutrality thing as a cover.

 

 

 

This.

 

Honestly I think these teachers are hiding behind this district's policy.

 

It wouldn't be anything for the bully to turn from the gay, the disabled, the "strange" targets and turn their bullying to the teachers. Keyed cars, slashed tires, Molotov cocktails through the window of home.

 

This. (Then just watch how fast they take action. :glare:)

 

The issue is really not whether or not being gay is morally right. The issue is stopping aggressive behavior.

 

This.

[FaithManor]

I also would like to present the other side of the story. You'd be suprised how many "bullies" parents sue teachers for suppressing their children's free speech, for assault if they try to stop a physical attack, etc.

 

Our local case comes from the middle school. A female English teacher and a male Science teacher were called into the hallway because a known bully was beating up another child...a child he just always tormented. The teachers rushed to the scene and using an appropriate level of force, pulled the bully off the child and then sequestered him in a classroom until the police could arrive. The school nurse was called to attend to the student who was attacked. Though the middle school bully was hauled off by the police and his parents had to come to the station to get him, these same buklly parents are suing the school district and the two teachers for the assault of their son! Guess what! They will win money over this. The school district's lawyers say they absolutely will win a judgment against the teachers and the school. It will be settled out of court to save the school district money. The new policy is that no teacher, under any circumstances, may touch a student for any reason period. Do not offer your hand to the kindergartener that just fell, do not administer a band aid, do not restrain a bully, do not pick up an injured child and run for the door when the building is on fire, and as for fights - just let the bully continue beating the other student until the police arrive, etc. The only staff in the entire district that will be allowed to touch a student will be the school nurses. The teachers were told they cannot even physically defend themselves from an attack from a student or students. Just take the beating until the cops arrive! That's the policy.

 

I swear, if this kind of c*** continues, teachers will leave the profession in droves and the government will have to hire prison guards to fill their desks.

 

Faith

[Saille]

The new policy is that no teacher, under any circumstances, may touch a student for any reason period. Do not offer your hand to the kindergartener that just fell, do not administer a band aid, do not restrain a bully, do not pick up an injured child and run for the door when the building is on fire, and as for fights - just let the bully continue beating the other student until the police arrive, etc. The only staff in the entire district that will be allowed to touch a student will be the school nurses. The teachers were told they cannot even physically defend themselves from an attack from a student or students. Just take the beating until the cops arrive! That's the policy.

 

I would love to see a link. That needs to make the national news. The counter-argument (I will sue your @ss if my kid is in any way harmed due to your inaction) seems far too obvious to ignore.

 

Also, what about school shootings? I know I'm not the only teacher who has thought that s/he might be left no option but to defend students with violence. The teachers who hide behind "neutrality" policies are abdicating their basic responsibilities as adult authority figures and stewards. We talk about trends of disrespect among students, but why should they respect an adult who isn't willing to accept responsibility in this fundamental way?

Edited October 27, 2010 by Saille

[TXMomof4]

But this is exactly like what's being discussed on the media thread this morning. If adults *as a group* do not endorse and inculcate an anti-bullying culture, teachers who call out bullying are just one voice in a storm. And I'm tired of it. I'm tired of Queen Bees' parents equating bullying with leadership skills. I'm tired of the bullying starting up again the second you're not looking. The bottom line is, if every teacher and every student was consistently expected to call it out when they saw it...if we held the staff and student body as a whole responsible for doing nothing, then we'd have all the eyes we needed. I'm tired of bystander syndrome, and we can't expect the kids to stand up when we don't model or support that behavior.

 

I agree 100%. However - I don't think it's realistic. Think back - shoot, Little House on the Prairie, there was a bully. I can't think of other examples off the top of my head, but bullies have been around forever, and depending on their social postition, will be successful because of who their parents are, if for no other reason.

 

I think there are more outlets for bullying now (think FB, blogs, etc.), but none of this is new and none of the teachers responses are new. The teachers who stand up and call a bully on his/her behavior are few and far between and always have been.

[Mejane]

Think back - shoot, Little House on the Prairie, there was a bully.

 

Yabbut, back then you could push Nellie in the mud puddle. Now, the Olsens would sue you and take your little house. :glare:

[TXMomof4]

Yabbut, back then you could push Nellie in the mud puddle. Now, the Olsens would sue you and take your little house. :glare:

 

But the teacher wouldn't even attempt it, right? She'd have lost her job and been run out of town.

[Saille]

I agree 100%. However - I don't think it's realistic. Think back - shoot, Little House on the Prairie, there was a bully. I can't think of other examples off the top of my head, but bullies have been around forever, and depending on their social postition, will be successful because of who their parents are, if for no other reason.

 

I think there are more outlets for bullying now (think FB, blogs, etc.), but none of this is new and none of the teachers responses are new. The teachers who stand up and call a bully on his/her behavior are few and far between and always have been.

 

Nellie. The kids dealt with her, but I think the teacher would have if they hadn't. Now later, when Eliza Wilder was their teacher, she totally fed into it. Remember that? I don't think she was renewed.

 

Oh, and how about the Hardscrabble boys and Almanzo's father's whip?

Edited October 27, 2010 by Saille

[Mejane]

But the teacher wouldn't even attempt it, right? She'd have lost her job and been run out of town.

 

I think that's part of the problem, if not the whole problem. We kids used to deal with bullies ourselves. If someone bothered someone, their bigger brother or friend would beat the bullly up. Or the dads would hash it out. End of story. Now, you can't touch anyone. There has to be a "policy", meetings, official action... We (parents, teachers) are so afraid of what might happen to us if we react, that we don't. It's pathetic and tragic, imo, because it leaves kids defenseless.

[TXMomof4]

I think that's part of the problem, if not the whole problem. We kids used to deal with bullies ourselves. If someone bothered someone, their bigger brother or friend would beat the bullly up. Or the dads would hash it out. End of story. Now, you can't touch anyone. There has to be a "policy", meetings, official action... We (parents, teachers) are so afraid of what might happen to us if we react, that we don't. It's pathetic and tragic, imo, because it leaves kids defenseless.

 

:iagree: Kids have such a strong sense of right and wrong and when adults don't do anything to correct a wrong, what does that teach our kids?

 

My oldest has had some experiences with a bully (not physical, just a really mean little girl) and it's tremendously hard for the kids to watch her be in the wrong and not get punished. We've discussed that she is mean, that she is wrong, but even if we aren't friends with her, she always seems to come out on top. That begins to look like a good way to go if there's no consequence for being a mean, back-stabbing little b****.

 

*I* make sure there are consequences at our house, but they don't see anyone else reacting and they begin to think it might be ok.

[FaithManor]

Hi Sallie,

 

There isn't any link I can point you to. We live in a very rural area and it was only covered by two local newspapers and when I say local, think small. They don't even have websites where one can link to previous stories. I might be able to find a copy of the articles at the library but I don't know if it would be a copy right violation to post them here or not unless I could get the front page of the newspaper into the post so that full credit to the journalists would be given. We've had some CRAZY things happen in this area but none of them make the regional, state, or national news. We are not on that radar at all.

 

Most of what I know is from a dear friend who teaches high school in that district. He was able to elaborate on the details as there was, for whatever reason, no gag order on discussing it when the settlement was reached except for discussing monetary amounts. I think this may have been because again, rural - less experienced lawyers were involved. Usually there is a pretty all encompassing gag order placed on these kinds of settlements.

 

So, the family of the victim got money from the school for not protecting the child, the bully's parents got money from the school because his free speech was infringed and he was "assaulted", the teacher's were reprimanded and suspended without pay for three weeks as punishment for getting the school district in hot water with the bully's parents, the parents of the victim publicly thanked the teachers for intervening on their son's behalf and asked the community to chip in and make donations to cover their lost pay, the bully went to juvenile detention because the sheriff's department HAS HAD ENOUGH OF HIM, and the victim is in a private school paid for out of the proceeds of the lawsuit the victim's parents brought against the school, and though some small donations were made to the teachers, they basically did not even begin to recover their back pay.

 

So, the net outcome: The victim's parents got money and here is the thing that just cheese's me off....we have school of choice in Michigan and these people live one mile from the district line. When it was clear, and the bullying had gone on for a while, that there son was being bullied and might be in danger, they could have enrolled him in another district at no cost to get him away from this kid. First rule, protect your kid...but their attitude was, "I shouldn't have to move my kid." They left him there to be bullied when they had another very reasonable option. They also missed three parent/teacher/principal conferences on the subject prior to the final assault. Yet, they got money despite being irresponsible parents.

 

The Bully went to juvenile detention where he will learn to be a hardened criminal. He's been a nightmare child since he was little. His parents have defended his every action. I think they should be in juvie hall. They got MONEY FOR THIS!

 

The school should have been much more proactive and threw the bully out of school period. They could have also had him tailed by one of the school security guards, most of these guys look like Hulk Hogan, but they left him in the hallways and at recess unsupervised. I'm pretty certain that most kids would think twice about beating on somebody else if they've spent all day not even being able to go to the bathroom without a "Make My Day" Bruce Willis type personality standing behind them. The school paid dearly for this mistake and on some level, this is probably justice. But again, this only takes money that would have been spent on more constructive things and places it in the pockets of idiots.

 

And the only people in the whole stinking scenario who did the absolute right thing, the English and Science teacher....got screwed by the system! That's their payback for doing the morally correct thing.

 

So, what's that phrase about, "The good guy finishes last." Yeah, that's it....dead last!

 

The two teachers were retained by the school district but are also taking night classes to get degrees in other fields. They are leaving the teaching profession. Sigh....the good ones leave...God help the kids in that middle school.

 

Faith

[kalphs]

The teachers are totally illogical if they can't discern between anti-bullying and gay-endorsement of curriculum. This quote from the article expresses my opinion on the matter:

 

"There is no confusion on this," says Barb Anderson, who works for the Minnesota Family Council, an evangelical group. "Any teacher can stop bullying in its tracks — and should."

 

They should stop bullying regardless of whether the "bully-ee" is gay, straight, handicapped, popular, or whoever they may be. This should not have been a *gay* issue; it should have been a bullying issue.

:iagree:

[kalphs]

I heard this story on the news tonight.

 

I blogged about it if you really want to read a rant, but in the interest of full disclosure, I use some strong language.

 

The reason it's still worth posting on this board when I've already spoken my piece is because, while there may be vehement disagreements on this board, I can depend on some well-worded arguments. And I want to know if anyone thinks that teachers are seriously incapable of differentiating between enforcing an anti-bullying policy and endorsing homosexuality. When I heard the story, my initial reaction was, "Come on, seriously? That reasoning would not fly on the boards." But maybe I'm wrong. And even if I'm not, I find I want to read your words.

I read your blog Sallie.

Excellant commentary!

[Saille]

FaithManor, I am amazed that the teacher's union isn't all over this, from the disciplinary action to the new policy. There's no way it's not illegal to order teachers to submit to physical violence at the hands of their students. AFA being forbidden to intervene, I'd be sitting down with my legislators to talk about a "duty to assist" law.

 

One of our local political candidates is making bullying a major issue in all of his literature...basically smearing the other guy for not supporting an anti-bullying law.

 

kalphs, thanks!

[kalphs]

You are welcome Sallie!

[FaithManor]

Sallie, the teacher's union can't even get ahead on this. The system protects the criminal actions of a minor as much or more than anyone's right to be safe. The school instituted the policy based on the prosecutor's recommendation that there will be more and more lawsuits if the teacher's attempt to defend themselves or other students unless a weapon is involved. I guess that once there is a weapon, then that's just a whole different ball of wax because instead of it being simple assault/bullying it is assault with a deadly weapon or with the intent to kill and no parent is going to be able to defend their kids' actions against those types of charges.

 

It's nuts....completely nuts. And like I said, we are in the absolute sticks so again, our teachers are fairly largely ignored by the teacher's union itself. The union spends most of it's money defending teachers and railing against policies that wealthier, urban school districts make. Our teachers are on their own here.

 

Faith

[Pamela H in Texas]

teachers are totally illogical if they can't discern between anti-bullying and gay-endorsement of curriculum.

 

I realize this is the spin of the article, but the other consideration is that teachers are likely a bit worried about coming down the other way also. I wrote my response to cover both directions (though I didn't outline it as such). I probably had an easier time considering my response, as a teacher, to such things before going into the classroom because my beliefs do not fall in "with" either side. I can imagine that it would be much more difficult who feel strongly with one side or the other.

 

But regardless, this really comes down to how people are treated, not beliefs. Why on earth would it be okay to abuse someone or allow the abuse of someone because you disagree with them? That is absolutely sickening!

[Barry Goldwater]

I think that's part of the problem, if not the whole problem. We kids used to deal with bullies ourselves. If someone bothered someone, their bigger brother or friend would beat the bullly up. Or the dads would hash it out. End of story. Now, you can't touch anyone. There has to be a "policy", meetings, official action... We (parents, teachers) are so afraid of what might happen to us if we react, that we don't. It's pathetic and tragic, imo, because it leaves kids defenseless.

 

:iagree:

 

I ended a bully situation where I was a victim when I was 10, by having my older brothers meet me to walk me home from school, ONCE...that's all it took.

 

In my other experiences as a youth, teacher intervention on my behalf as the victim only made it worse...some teachers might know this, and be silently rooting for the victim to stand up and fight...but with zero tolerance insanity, that gets the victim in trouble as much as the bully, maybe more so...this was my problem. I just wanted to be a good boy, get good grades and get out.

 

Teaching staff are in a no-win situation it sounds like...Do nothing, get called a religous bigot [see above]...intervene physically, get sued for assault. Intervene verbally, get sanctioned...the whole thing is broken. Bureaucracies replace common sense.

 

And I'm also amazed to learn that the gay advocacy groups have basically hijacked the whole anti-bullying movement. Most of us got picked on because we did our homework and knew the answers to the teacher's questions...not for any perceived 'orientation.'

[Audrey]

I think that's part of the problem, if not the whole problem. We kids used to deal with bullies ourselves. If someone bothered someone, their bigger brother or friend would beat the bullly up. Or the dads would hash it out. End of story. Now, you can't touch anyone. There has to be a "policy", meetings, official action... We (parents, teachers) are so afraid of what might happen to us if we react, that we don't. It's pathetic and tragic, imo, because it leaves kids defenseless.

 

 

True. There used to be such a thing as "playground honour" where you looked out for the little kids, and "playground justice" where you taught a hard and fast lesson to anyone who dared to pick on the little kids.

 

There was a kid who wouldn't quit picking on my little brother at school. I couldn't stand it. I felt it was my job to do something about it because the teachers sure didn't seem to notice a d@mn thing. One day, I'd had enough. I was just completely enraged -- something snapped. I saw red and everything. I ran across the playground, launched myself at the bully and once he went down I just kept beating him until a teacher pulled me off. I was 7 years old and maybe all of 50 lbs. The bully was 10 (picking on a 5-year old!!) and easily twice my size. That little $#*! never bothered another kid again, and I left a good fat scar across his eyebrow as a reminder. I hope he still has it, too.

 

I got in ten kinds of trouble for doing that, but I was not then, nor am I now, one bit sorry that I did it. He'd broken one of the cardinal laws of childhood. He'd violated a little kid. Nobody messes with the little kids. Everyone knows that rule. I'd never, ever hit anyone before that, nor have I since. There have been times, though, when I hear friends talking about their kids' situations with bullies, that I'm sorely tempted to tell some older kids to go get some playground justice on those bullies. Mean people suck no matter their age.

[Saille]

And I'm also amazed to learn that the gay advocacy groups have basically hijacked the whole anti-bullying movement. Most of us got picked on because we did our homework and knew the answers to the teacher's questions...not for any perceived 'orientation.'

 

Wait, what?

 

Anti-gay bullying draws media attention after a string of suicides.

Therefore, gay advocacy groups have hijacked the whole anti-bullying movement.

 

Could you explain this more, please?

[Mejane]

I got in ten kinds of trouble for doing that, but I was not then, nor am I now, one bit sorry that I did it.

 

I guess I need to amend my statement to include bigger sisters. ;)

 

(Thumbs-up, btw.)

[lmrich]

Audrey! Where were you when I was in the fourth grade. My neighbor/class mate bullied me for 6 months and got her big brother to beat me up.

 

When I finally told my mom about it and the school found out; it was handled nicely. The bully got help to deal with her problems, but I refuesed help. I think I still have issues with girl friends because of this and a later problem with a "friend". But overall, my teachers and school were awesome.

[elizabeth]

Great story. I was sitting in the lobby of the law office watching the littles walk home from the neighborhood school as I do nearly every day . This day we had our IT gal coming in to update some items. As she approached our front door, right in front of her there was a boy whapping another little boy in front of him with his backpack. The little boy had facial features common to those with Downs Syndrome. Our IT gal stopped dead in the walkway dropped her bags and grabbed that rotten $%@# who was tormenting the special needs child and shook that boy like a sack of potatoes saying over and over, HOW COULD YOU? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU ? SHAME ON YOU !!! I swear that little monster ran like the coward he was as soon as his feet could hit pavement. She strolled into the office and said anyone got a problem with me?? We poured her a drink. A big one. The problem is bad parenting. I see it and dh sees it every day in the law office. There is no accountability,respect or boundaries at home so why would these rotten punks treat anyone with decency?? Every **** week we get a call from some overbearing mother( yep mothers are the worst enablers of this crap) about how her darling child has been mistreated by a school official or teacher. When we ask for and read the police report the kid has always called the the teacher/administrator a $%&()(*&& and then hit them. We have never had a case where a youth was actually mistreated by a teacher but several times I have said to parents , having obtained objective reports and corroborating witnes statements that their child was a delinquent bully who would be in jail before 20. So the teachers are not on the whole illogical but I think crippled by their training to ask why Johnny is mean rather than simply being trained to take Johnny out of the classroom and letting his irresponsible, ineffectual parents take care of the problem. They created the little monster they can make childcare arrangements for when she/he is kicked out of school for making all the other kids , teachers and administrators miserable. And you guys thought I was a knee jerk liberal. You don't know the half of it.

[mcconnellboys]

I really don't think this has anything to do with religious intolerance of gays. I think teachers in many, MANY schools, in general, have a hands-off policy with regard to bullying of any kind. They simply don't care what's driving it. They don't want to have to mess with it. They don't want to be bothered.

 

It's not about intolerance of any particular type of person in any of these situations; it's about laziness or malaise regarding dealing with those little extra parts of the job of teaching that are distasteful.... It's like the kids who ignore the garbage at home week after week, hoping it will take care of itself because it's unpleasant for them to have to deal with it....

[Pamela H in Texas]

According to the news this morning, 50% of children admit to bullying another student. 50%. Goodness. If Elizabeth is correct, that makes about 50% of parents bad parents. (btw, that is not a judgment statement; I'll keep my opinion about that to myself for now. I'm just saying).

Edited October 28, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[elizabeth]

Yes. That would be correct. All income levels . As a professional I am in one socioeconomic group and about half of those parents are unbelievably lame. As dh runs a law clinic dealing with a very different socioeconomic group I can likewise say that about half of those are raising Hannibal Lecters as well. I call it like I see it.