What LA is really necessary in lower elem?

[I.Dup.]

I am tempted wait to teach most LA until my children get around middle school age so they can actually understand what we're talking about and "get" it in a short amount of time. So I am considering waiting on a grammar program and...? Spelling? Writing? Sentence outlining and diagramming? What really needs to be done consistently from grades 1-5?

 

My head is spinning after reading the MCT/Kilgallon/GWG/LLATL/FLL/WWE threads....I'm not sure what all is really needed right now.

 

I have so many children I'm needing to juggle, LOL, and language is so very important to me so I don't want to shortchange my kids.......I guess I just don't see the necessity of it now unless it really is going to set her way behind or something?

 

What say you? :bigear:

[coffeegal]

What really needs to be done consistently from grades 1-5?

 

In my opinion, the critical 2 language arts skills are penmanship/copywork and reading. Copywork will introduce proper spelling, grammar, and writing while building the handstrength the child will need later to write 1-2 page papers. I've found that the ability to read lightens my work load immensely. :D

[Mommee & Baba]

I'm gonna sit in on this one too! I would love to hear what others have to say.

 

We're starting L.A. this coming year with my 2nd grader and although I was excited to start it. I actually am starting to think that what I had planned is gonna be far too much writing for my child that she won't grasp it as well. I'm in the mix of either doing most of it orally and doing some of the writing lessons but not near as much as they advise...and I'm even considering dropping what I have planned altogether and going with a completely different program.

 

So I'm gonna jump in and go along for the ride.:auto: so I can see what others suggest.

[johnandtinagilbert]

:lol::lol::lol: That, my dear, is a very philosophical question. :D

 

Instead of reading threads, may I suggest reading The Well Trained Mind, A Charlotte Mason companion, and School Can Wait. Each of these will give your "their take" on early stage language arts.

 

Keep in mind, many of the programs you mentioned are meant to be 15-20min. lessons in those subject matters and the young ages of K-3 are the "sponge years" where memorization is easy, so although they may not understand conceptually for a few years, they will have the general memorization down.

 

Anyways, best wishes on your hunt.

[TracyP]

In my opinion, the critical 2 language arts skills are penmanship/copywork and reading. Copywork will introduce proper spelling, grammar, and writing while building the handstrength the child will need later to write 1-2 page papers. I've found that the ability to read lightens my work load immensely. :D

 

I am new at this so would like to hear what others say but right now I am in this camp. My plan is WWE and reading/phonics/spelling until 3rd grade. I really don't see the point of formal grammar younger than that (we do like Mad Libs).

[I.Dup.]

:lol::lol::lol: That, my dear, is a very philosophical question. :D

 

Instead of reading threads, may I suggest reading The Well Trained Mind, A Charlotte Mason companion, and School Can Wait. Each of these will give your "their take" on early stage language arts.

 

Keep in mind, many of the programs you mentioned are meant to be 15-20min. lessons in those subject matters and the young ages of K-3 are the "sponge years" where memorization is easy, so although they may not understand conceptually for a few years, they will have the general memorization down.

 

Anyways, best wishes on your hunt.

 

Thank you! I have devoured WTM several times (although I don't own it) and love what it says, and therein lies the rub.

 

The thing that keeps holding me back is the thought that children ARE a "sponge" at this age and I want her memorizing all she can...but at this point we have yet to memorize multiplication/addition facts. :001_unsure:

 

I also don't see how they can retain all of the minute grammar facts and things at these ages, but I guess it's possible.

 

I am very familiar with CM, but have yet to read any better late than early books.

 

Thanks for any help.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Thank you! I have devoured WTM several times (although I don't own it) and love what it says, and therein lies the rub.

 

The thing that keeps holding me back is the thought that children ARE a "sponge" at this age and I want her memorizing all she can...but at this point we have yet to memorize multiplication/addition facts. :001_unsure:

 

I also don't see how they can retain all of the minute grammar facts and things at these ages, but I guess it's possible.

 

I am very familiar with CM, but have yet to read any better late than early books.

 

Thanks for any help.

Perhaps you can use copy work and dictation to accomplish both grammar and memorization. Copy work is useful for math facts (for visual learners).

 

Here's a simple idea: Have dc memorize the definition of "noun." Then, as you complete copy work or reading each day, point out the nouns in the reading.

 

Do the same every week, only with different parts of speech. 5 minutes ought to do. This way, you're working on all language arts, ala CM, and still reaching your goals on memorization in other areas b/c you're not wasting away time doing busy work.

 

Now, as to what they can comprehend at this tender age...you might be surprised. My first and 2nd grader learned a TON last year in grammar, more than I thought they could :) I won't even tell you about the wonderful language arts I use. :lol: you don't even want to go there!:lol:

 

The Moore Family is better late philosophically, so if you're looking for agreement, you'll find it here!

[Mallory]

So far this is what we have done.

 

K-2 Get reading down good and do some copywork and narration (I write).

3 start WWE (both boys went quickly through first two levels)

4 do FLL 3 and writing program (one did WWE 3 the other Writing Tales)

5 start spelling and do a writing program

[lovemykids]

In my opinion, the critical 2 language arts skills are penmanship/copywork and reading. Copywork will introduce proper spelling, grammar, and writing while building the handstrength the child will need later to write 1-2 page papers. I've found that the ability to read lightens my work load immensely. :D

:iagree:

:lol::lol::lol: That, my dear, is a very philosophical question. :D

 

 

 

Keep in mind, many of the programs you mentioned are meant to be 15-20min. lessons in those subject matters and the young ages of K-3 are the "sponge years" where memorization is easy, so although they may not understand conceptually for a few years, they will have the general memorization down.

 

Anyways, best wishes on your hunt.

:iagree:

 

 

ITA. Although I do take it up a notch by fourth grade. Before then, all that is really necessary are these three things: early reading skills, copywork, and narrations. ;)

[Ellie]

I don't believe in "language arts." :D

 

Good reading skills, good penmanship, a basic understanding of sentence structure and capitalization and punctuation...that's a good start.:)

[jlcejb6]

I am interested to see what everyone else says as well, we are starting LA this year with our 6yr old ds using the SL1 LA program.

Wondering if it will be over his head!:glare:

[silliness7]

For my 1st grader this year we will be doing Primary Phonics, Writing with Ease I (which is basically copywork and oral narrations as opposed to traditional composition writing) and Building Spelling Skills 1. I'm iffy on the spelling. I don't think it's vital but I'm curious to try it with her and see how she does. I've been working through the 1st grade handwriting book with her this summer so that she's ready to tackle the writing in the other programs as soon as school starts. I bought a Daily Handwriting Practice book for her before I landed on WWE and she'll probably do that on the days she does no copywork for WWE.

 

I've done FLL in the past. I'm not a fan of early grammar instruction. Although I have purchased the Grammar Songs from audio memory and I have the FLL CD and plan to play those during lunch.

 

Of course I'll be reading aloud to her and as her reading expands I expect she'll pick up some free reading time. Oh, and we'll be doing poetry memory which was my hands-down favorite part of FLL but we will be using IEW's Poetry program.

 

My 3rd grader will be doing WWE (still working on placing her but probably doing dictation and written narrations...we'll see) Building Spelling Skills 3, (not vital but she's a natural speller and LOVES showing off) Poetry memory, and reading, reading, reading. I have a little 3rd grade grammar homework booklet which she can work through the last 6 weeks of school and another for the last 6 weeks of 4th grade...just so when she jumps in to official grammar study (5th grade) she's a bit familiar with the concept. It's more for exposure than mastery. Of course, she'll be listening to the grammar songs too. And she's learning cursive this year (at her request) so handwriting is back on the menu.

[Susan in TX]

For language arts, I don't do anything except phonics and reading until the child is reading fluently, about 3rd grade. Then we replace phonics with spelling and start R&S grammar. But there is really no reason why you have to start grammar that early. My experience has been if we start later, the child just moves through the material faster. And there is a lot of review built into R&S so you really don't need six years to get through six grades of material.

 

Susan in TX

[texasmama]

FLL1 is a very gentle, fun introduction to grammar. My kids loved it. It is mostly oral. I like that they become familiar with the concepts of parts of speech, poetry memorization, capitalization, etc. It's a great start during a time when the children are eager to learn. :001_smile:

[Pata]

I'm not totally sold on grammar for a first grader. I tried FLL in 1st and in 2nd with my dd and she didn't retain anything. If I had it to do all over again (which I do now that little man is here!), I would do this...

 

K-phonics (teaching to read) & basic letter formation

1st-complete phonics, work on building reading fluency & WWE 1

2nd-begin spelling, continue to work on building reading fluency & WWE 2

3rd-spelling, basic grammar (either streamline FLL or use what's in CW Aesop) & WWE 3/4 OR CW Aesop for writing, begin Prima Latina (this also teaches some basic grammar)

4th-spelling, CW Aesop (includes basic grammar), Latin Christiana

 

I can't decide if it's better to spread CW Aesop over two years or to condense it into one year yet. We decided to spread it out and add in WWE style work on our non writing project weeks, so we'll see how that goes. Probably more info than you wanted, hope that helps :)

[EKS]

First and foremost: reading. And penmanship. Once these are fairly fluent...spelling and simple writing (like how to write a sentence). Many people use copywork/dictation for this. Only after all of this is pretty easy would a grammar program be appropriate. In my older son's case, we started grammar in 5th grade. In my younger son's case we started in K. It had to do with readiness. And through all of this it is helpful to advance the writing.

 

As for outlining--I'd wait until 5th grade or higher.

[mystika1]

I am no veteran as my daughter is only in second grade.:) I learned that for my daughter, shoveling tons of information at her will only cause shut down. I tried CLE LA and thought wow this is so complete but my daughter retained nothing at all. She just hated seeing the workbooks come out. I found myself questioning why shovel all this info when she can barely read. I dropped it all and concentrated on phonics, copywork(we did go over proper punctuation)and math. This year(2nd)I added in Kiss Grammar second grade workbook, AAS and ES. She is loving everything! Much better than stuffing information and hoping it sticks.:001_smile:

 

HTH,

 

Penny

[1GirlTwinBoys]

I'm finding this thread really interesting. My DD is going into 2nd and I have decided to keep the gentle approach this year again. We will use HOD Beyond LA suggestions and start where we left off with WWE I. I might add in some AAS just for phonics & basic rules.

 

I had considered starting BJU 2nd grade English, but have decided I don't want to put that much introduction to writing & grammar on her at this point.

Edited July 9, 2010 by 1GirlTwinBoys

[zaichiki]

 

1. phonics/reading
   
2. handwriting
   
3. copywork
   
4. narration
   
5. dictation
   
6. spelling
   

These are the most important, IMO, for elementary school. Reading well and often and doing copywork regularly can cover a lot of bases all at once (think two birds with one stone).

 

My oldest never needed a spelling program b/c he learned it by osmosis through reading and copywork. Ditto for usage and mechanics. Younger one didn't pick these things up by osmosis. Now, after she's reading and copying well, we're using a spelling program to help. I still find that taking dictation is wonderful for practicing many "language arts" skills at the same time.

 

If you're looking for efficiency, I'd stick with copywork and dictation and drop grammar, spelling, and writing curricula in the younger years.

 

ETA: I'm planning to use the writing programs that have been sitting on my bookshelves (for years) for the first time this year. I may end up dropping them with my 8 year old. We'll see. I also plan to give Editor in Chief a whirl with my oldest just to make sure we've got our bases covered. He's never used a formal "GUM" program before. If it turns out to be unnecessary, we'll drop it in the interest of efficiency.

Edited July 9, 2010 by zaichiki

[birchbark]

I agree. Copywork and dictation are wonderful because they teach spelling, penmanship, mechanics, and usage in one fell swoop. They also can be done within another subject, such as history, science, or Bible. You can hardly ask for a more efficient language arts program!

 

IF you choose to do some grammar, I recommend The Sentence Family which is easy, fun, visual, cheap, and reusable. Good for all the grades you mentioned. It covers the parts of speech and basic diagramming and can be gone through in two or three weeks.

 

Another quick, efficient grammar program is Daily Grammar Practice, which only takes five minutes a day.

Edited July 9, 2010 by birchbark

[I.Dup.]

Thank you all SO much! This was really helpful :)

 

I will be waiting on a major LA program at this point. I did not realize AAS had more than just spelling, so I may check into that. I was looking at samples of The Sentence Family yesterday and it looks darling, so I guess I'm trying to decide between that and the "real life" books by Cleary that someone mentioned on another thread, they are about parts of speech. Hmmmm.

[Crimson Wife]

 

• Phonics until the child is reading fluently
  
• Penmanship and/or copywork
  
• Grammar once the child is reading fluently
  
• Spelling once the child is reading fluently if the child is not a "natural" speller
  
• Formal writing program once the child reaches late elementary level
  
• Vocabulary program once the child has gotten to the point where vocabulary is the limiting factor in making progress in reading
  

 

[StephanieZ]

I'd put spelling on the essentials list. The other subjects can wait IMHO so long as the kids are reading (& being read) a vast amount of good books!

[kalanamak]

I would note that grammar is about my son's favorite subject, and he gets a real joy out of it. E.g. "I think this sentence could use another adjective" and he proceeds to add four of them. Or "Oh, my! It's an interjection. (Pause). Oh, my! I just used one, too! (laughter)." We have used GWG very painlessly, and he also loves the Cleary series that has A Mime, A Lime, A Pool of Slime. So, I'm glad I didn't skip this subject because of his age.

[littlebug42]

Might I suggest Schoolhouse Rock. My children learned their parts of speech this way.

 

I also like books from Evan-Moor called Languaage Fundamentals. It is a workbook that starts with grade 1 and it introduces parts of speech, mechanics etc in a pretty gentle way without tons of writing. They build on each other and each year gets a little more in depth. I really like them.

[Ummto4]

I'm not totally sold on grammar for a first grader. I tried FLL in 1st and in 2nd with my dd and she didn't retain anything. If I had it to do all over again (which I do now that little man is here!), I would do this...

 

K-phonics (teaching to read) & basic letter formation

1st-complete phonics, work on building reading fluency & WWE 1

2nd-begin spelling, continue to work on building reading fluency & WWE 2

3rd-spelling, basic grammar (either streamline FLL or use what's in CW Aesop) & WWE 3/4 OR CW Aesop for writing, begin Prima Latina (this also teaches some basic grammar)

4th-spelling, CW Aesop (includes basic grammar), Latin Christiana

 

I can't decide if it's better to spread CW Aesop over two years or to condense it into one year yet. We decided to spread it out and add in WWE style work on our non writing project weeks, so we'll see how that goes. Probably more info than you wanted, hope that helps :)

 

Agree with this.

1st and 2nd: phonics/reading, dictation/copywork/handwriting to ensure a child knows how to write a sentence (It took 2 years for my boy to be comfortable in writing a proper sentence), narration skill, and some basic spelling.

3rd: spelling and sentence dictation, grammar, start writing down narration. I also start asking my son to read chapter books which correspond to our history study (we're using recommended 3rd grade readers from Sonlight).

 

HTH

[johnandtinagilbert]

I would note that grammar is about my son's favorite subject, and he gets a real joy out of it. E.g. "I think this sentence could use another adjective" and he proceeds to add four of them. Or "Oh, my! It's an interjection. (Pause). Oh, my! I just used one, too! (laughter)." We have used GWG very painlessly, and he also loves the Cleary series that has A Mime, A Lime, A Pool of Slime. So, I'm glad I didn't skip this subject because of his age.

That is an awesome son. He must be your favorite :D (inside joke...I tell them all they're my favorite)

 

Might I suggest Schoolhouse Rock. My children learned their parts of speech this way.

 

I also like books from Evan-Moor called Languaage Fundamentals. It is a workbook that starts with grade 1 and it introduces parts of speech, mechanics etc in a pretty gentle way without tons of writing. They build on each other and each year gets a little more in depth. I really like them.

Great idea. I may have to get that from the library just for fun!

[JudoMom]

For me it's:

 

K: Phonics & Penmanship, Plaid Phonics A

1st-2nd: Writing With Ease 1 & 2, Plaid Phonics B & C

3rd-4th: Grammar, Writing With Ease 3 & 4, Spelling

[In2why]

When I took my son out of Public school my son's teacher was really supportive, so one thing she said to me stands out. In her 20+ years of teaching elementary she said that one thing she noticed was that kids who learned at home excelled in reading and math but for some reason few of them were on level in writing and grammar when they came back to public school for one reason or another.

Now I don't have any plans for my son to go back to "School" so I can decide when and why to teach something, but for some reason her advice makes sense. I want him to understand the structure of a sentence even if I know he isn't writing best sellers, and I hope that if he absorbs the parts of speech not it will one day translate when he is writing more in depth.

So is is necessary in my opinion?? Probably not, but it is more necessary then a lot of other things we learn.

[zaichiki]

When I took my son out of Public school my son's teacher was really supportive, so one thing she said to me stands out. In her 20+ years of teaching elementary she said that one thing she noticed was that kids who learned at home excelled in reading and math but for some reason few of them were on level in writing and grammar when they came back to public school for one reason or another.

 

Now out of curiosity -- in her 20+ years of teaching just how many kids did she see come into her classroom from homeschooling? It is my understanding that homeschooling isn't all that common (though recently it's becoming more so). How many kids is she basing her opinion on??? And they were *all* weak in writing and grammar? Sigh.

[In2why]

Now out of curiosity -- in her 20+ years of teaching just how many kids did she see come into her classroom from homeschooling? It is my understanding that homeschooling isn't all that common (though recently it's becoming more so). How many kids is she basing her opinion on??? And they were *all* weak in writing and grammar? Sigh.

 

 

I get where you are coming from......but we live in an area that is quite transient with many military families. I myself was surprised. First by the number of families in our area that homeschool, and secondly by the number that homeschool one year and public school the next. I have one set of adult children, and then a whole other set of 'littles'. I personally know of quite a few families who choose to educate this way.

As for whether they were *all* weak in writing, I don't believe I implied that. Her opinion of homeschooling is that it is wonderful and children who are homeschooled overall get a better education. But at the same time she wanted to encourage me to emphasize writing skills since that was her experience. Is it more valid than anyone else's opinion, nope, is it more valid because she is a school teacher, nope, but it was valid to me because she values my child. And as I said, the thought is in the back of my mind when I am making choices about writing and grammar.

[zaichiki]

But at the same time she wanted to encourage me to emphasize writing skills since that was her experience. Is it more valid than anyone else's opinion, nope, is it more valid because she is a school teacher, nope, but it was valid to me because she values my child. And as I said, the thought is in the back of my mind when I am making choices about writing and grammar.

 

Is the focus on grammar/writing what attracted you to classical/WTM-style homeschooling?

[In2why]

Is the focus on grammar/writing what attracted you to classical/WTM-style homeschooling?

 

 

Great question.....not such a great answer. Sorta :001_huh: I read WTM, and numerous other homeschooling books and initially I thought John Holt and unschooling called to me, then I realized that my personality and that of my children were not going to ride that theory for long. WTM for me is about structure while I find my bearings. It also reinforces what I believe about how we are dumbing down our children by having low expectations in traditional schooling. Being able to write well is important to me and just another leg on the stool. It probably helps that DS likes writing, and grammar comes easily. I, on the otherhand love to read, consider myself above average in intelligence, and never learned much grammar beyond the basics. So in my rambling I guess what I am trying to say is that yes I feel that early elementary years are important for learning the rules because in this stage they soak up the knowledge even if they can't translate it into actual writing. Hopefully it will make that easier when they can. But like most if I had to choose between grammar and reading, I would choose reading every time. But now that I am thinking about it as I write, if I had to choose between grammar/writing and spelling, I would choose writing and grammar.