Financial boundaries and higher education

[jld]

Dh and I are having a difference of opinion on how much we are responsible for our kids' educations. Dh feels we should pay for all of it, including graduate school. I don't feel responsible for more than a bachelor's degree for each of them. College isn't that far away (dd15) and we kind of need to agree on something, as our philosophy going forward will affect other financial decisions we make.

 

I also think that financial boundaries are really important for healthy parent/adult child relationships. Honestly, I think financial boundaries are probably the main boundaries between parents and their adult children. Once you're paying your own way in life, you are truly independent.

 

Anything I may be missing here? Anything we should be thinking about? Ready to listen!:)

Edited June 5, 2010 by jld

[K-FL]

Paying for dc's college cost could be a never-ending debt for you. We all know "professional students" that would have stayed there forever if they could.

 

I agree w/you that there should be a limit either by degree, years of school, or $$ amount

[bugs]

If I had tons of resources I think I would still have my dc pay for half their education. Something like this...dc pays for the first semester, if grades are good we pay for the second and continue the cycle. This makes them own their education (not goof away the time) and yet gives them a relief from a huge financial burden.

 

Oh, and I'd be done with the Bachelors.

Edited June 4, 2010 by bugs
add last sentence

[creekland]

We told our kids from middle school age and up that we'd pay half - assuming a bachelor's degree. However, now that we're there, we've decided to make decisions as we go along.

 

What changed our mind is the path our kids are likely to take. Our oldest is heading to a low-paying, but highly rewarding field (microfinance). We think he's perfect for his path, but don't want to see him saddled with oodles of debt. He's also done his share to get high grades and high test scores, so has nice merit aid. We're going to try to help out as much as we can - and help with any loans he might need too. This totally depends on him continuing to hold up his end on the education front.

 

Middle son wants science research. His job should end up paying more, but he will also need graduate school. His colleges are more competitive, so who knows what kind of merit aid he'll get. We figure we'll decide things as we go along, but right now, we're leaning toward helping as much as we can - with his knowledge that we might not be able to help as much as his older brother (and why the difference).

 

Youngest is likely to head in a similar path to oldest, except with crops and farming. That will also be low paying, but highly rewarding.

 

I sense myself going to work full time once they are all in college and my paycheck going to pay off loans - simply because we want to assist them with their choices.

 

So much for plans we've had for ages (and savings that were supposed to be there to support our plans - those went with the economic downfall).

[Chris in VA]

We are having ds pay one-fourth of his college costs, since he can't get a loan. He did not get any scholarship help, either, tho that may change as he is in the process of applying to a church scholarship fund which may give him up to $2000. Given that tuition just went up 24%, that will about cover the increase...

 

Anyway, I think I agree with those that say a child will do better if they have to pay for some, if not all, of their education. My parents made me pay for my books and other essentials, but paid my tuition/R&B. It wasn't enough to make me feel responsible for getting good grades.

 

Now, I don't want to burden my children with a ton of debt, so they agreed on state schools that are under $18Gs a year for tuition and room/board. The most I want them to assume at graduation is $10,000. I don't want them to have to have this tuition monkey around their necks. I will not, however, pay for grad school. It seems to me that the scholarships/grants/loans are much better for that. Dh, for example, went to Seminary basically for free, and had significant help from his doctoral program, too. Besides, I think at least one of my boys will be married early, and I won't be payin' for nuttin' after he's married! LOL

 

I'm hoping my youngest will get a merit-based scholarship, as the boys just aren't there.

[TravelingChris]

We have told the kids college education only. That is our promise but with my middle, we will see what we can do. If she continues in the path she has laid out, she will need a professional degree. If we can help her, and she has remained as good a child as she is now, we probably will help her some. Our youngest will get college but only if she chooses to go with her talents. Currently she is rebelling and not wanting to go that way on some days. Mostly it is a matter of her being a social girl who thinks engineering is for geeky nerds. We will fund her for a science, math or engineering career but not for something like :I want to work with animals" when she hates biology.

[cathmom]

Well this is "academic" for me since right now we can't help any of our dc with any college expenses at all. But I would help them if I could do so without jeopardizing our retirement or the other dc's educations. I would help with grad school if able and if they required help to be able to go.

Edited June 4, 2010 by cathmom
to make it clearer

[QueenCat]

Ours have a set amount of money in college funds plus they are welcome to live at home for free and commute to the local state university. If they get enough scholarships to fund their bachelors, then the college fund is still theirs to use for a masters or for starting life on their own. Oldest ds is in college, and has yet to need to touch the college fund.

[jld]

I talked to dd about this today, and she said paying for a bachelor's is already really nice of us. She agreed that parents and adult children need to have financial boundaries, and that financial independence is a big part of being an adult. At least dd and I agree, lol. Hope the boys are okay with this . . .

 

Thanks so much everyone for sharing your thoughts. It's always good to hear other opinions, especially ones different from mine (it's good to be challenged!). Again, thank you!:)

[Mommyfaithe]

I WISH I could afford to pay for my dc's education. They are on their own there, but we help whenever w ecan. I buy their books, give them gas money, food money, pay for their car insurance & repairs, cell phones and other peripheral expenses (which are very basic) for them. I am also the lead cheerleader and study partner.

 

For ds, he is totally on his own financially because he is in total rebellion and I will not finance that. I will encourage him to work and go to school, to save for each semester and not party it away. If he won't help homself, I don't feel we should make it too easy.

 

I am hoping by the time the younger ones are older, we can be of more help. As it is, I am happy we can support the youngers and do some fun things all together.

 

I also am very thankful my kids have done so well academically that they have nice merit scholarships.

 

Faithe

[JFSinIL]

Three of our four kids have known for years that there would be scant money for college as we have had to pay for various therapies, etc. for SillyAutismBoy in order to improve his quality of life (he has gone from mere echolalia (sp?) to spontaneous, sensible speech and can now understand what is said to him, among other things.) We now need to be finding money for a special needs trust, to help care for him when we are gone (oh, and we should have money for retirement, right? We are 50. So far it has all gone to autism....)

 

Happily, SAB's fraternal twin did very well and got merit aid, etc. from one good LAC so our out of pocket is far less than the FAFSA's EFC. He will also be taking student loans - since he is a Biology major rather than a history one now I am less worried about his paying them off.

 

The next kid does not have the same grades - she may do as I did and go the local CC route then transfer.... we shall see. She did just call an admissions person at Sewanee to ask what science they'd like to see her take as a Junior next year, and got into a long conversation with the same person who had reviewed her older brother's application (we have a unique last name - folks remember it!). We may end up with a kid at University of the South yet (depending on aid) - ds decided not to attend there.

[jld]

Bless your heart, JFS. That's a lot on your plate. I have been reading a little bit on autism since the vaccine thread on the general board a few weeks ago, and I must say, I didn't realize what a challenge, in so many ways, having an autistic child is. I really wonder how we as a country are going to address these children's needs.

 

You know, planning to pay for the kids' college (we have 5) may be as low-cost as offering for them to live in our home, drive our van, and go to the local public branch. We can keep it to about $10k a year then (this year's prices). And, of course, this is based on dh's keeping his job, not necessarily a certainty in this economy. If the breadwinner becomes unemployed, all bets are off.

 

I also noted your relief that your dc is now a biology major. Someone else mentioned that there are no jobs at the bachelor level in that field, but is that incorrect? Dd wants to major in biochem or molecular biology, and go to med school. If we can't help with med school, we're hoping she can get a job in a lab, or do something professionally with that degree, until she can finance an adv. degree herself.

[JFSinIL]

He does plan to move on to med. school - although more likely he will do grad. work to be a researcher.

 

Part of me is hoping he ends up working to find help for kids like his brother!

[jld]

I hope so, too, JFS!:)

[IsabelC]

I'd be having a lot more discussion with your husband, and also with the kids if you want to take their input into account. His expectation seems a little strange to me though, because how does that work if one of your children does several postgrad degrees and another doesn't? Not to mention greater expenses for some degrees and/or colleges, assuming each child may do something different? What if one child receives a scholarship?

 

I would suggest working out firstly what you can realistically afford, up front and in the future. Then work out how you're going to distribute it: evenly between children, according to need, or what? Are you going to give them a choice or only give them the money for educational purposes?

 

(Ps I wouldn't know, as I still haven't paid off my university fees and it's about ten years since I have studied :tongue_smilie:)

[Alyce]

I don't want my Dc to have to pay for college. I want their attention to be focused on only their school work. I remember when I went to school how hard it was for those who paid some of their college costs. It was very challenging and in some ways detrimental. My dd has seen the same thing at her college and has thanked me more than once for making it so she doesn't have to work. Now, to clarify. My Dd has been eligible for need based scholarships so we haven't had to put in a lot of money but that will be changing now that the economy is tanking. As to our agreement. We will only pay for college. She is double majoring so we will pay for the 5 years it's going to take her to graduate. Any further education is on her. She also must maintain at least a C average. So far she has mostly gotten A's with some sporadic B's tucked in so her GPA is very high. She has a summer job but it doesn't pay much but the personal rewards are great (she's a summer counselor at our local christian camp) so she's requred to pay her car insurance, her gas money and her books. and any extra food, personal things she needs.

[Lizzie in Ma]

The day my first daughter was born, I looked into her beautiful eyes, told her I loved her more than life itself, and then informed her she will pay for her own college. :D

 

I truly believe that young men and women who pay for their own education will value it more. I saved up, went at 22 and worked 3 jobs and every holiday and summer, got some scholarships and took out very few loans. I worked my a** off and I would do it again in a heartbeat. I saw so many 18 year olds whose parents were paying for their education take a 4 year holiday. Made me sick to my stomach.

 

My Mom and Dad helped pay for books when they could and sent loving care packages and constant correspondence. They supported me in ways much more valuable to me than money.

[jld]

Yes, Hotdrink, we need to talk about it more. Dh is abroad right now, but when he gets back I need to show him some figures. Dd said her dad has a way of just throwing out ideas without realistic structure around them, and I think she is right on. His heart is in the right place. But I couldn't believe it the other day when he told me that if dd has to take out loans to pay for med school, we should reimburse her just as soon as we can. What? Reimburse someone making a couple times our annual income? It was one of those, "Do we live on the same planet?" moments in our marriage.

 

For us to pay all grad. studies for all the kids will take all our discretionary income for the next 20 years, at least. And that's assuming dh will never lose his job and we will spend all that time here in India, saving at the rate we are now. Who can know any of that in advance? It just doesn't sound realistic to me.

 

My plan is to offer the kids something more low-end, like living in our home in America, driving our van, providing money for food, gas, and books, and paying tuition and fees at the local public branch. Per child that would be, this year, 10k. That's doable. I'm not making any promises about med school or law school. And one kid is likely to want to study engineering, and that isn't available at the local public branch, so we would have to budget more for him.

 

The figures make me hope that at least one kid wants to skip college and do an apprenticeship of some kind, lol. Or that no one gets accepted to med or law school (again, lol). And I told the one who wants to be a writer not to go to college, but just get a job at Subway right off the bat and write, write, write in his free time (someone suggested something like this on the general board the other day). If he can't get published, he'll probably reconsider his choice of career and then we'll look at paying for a more technical degree. I have really taken the college debt stories I have been reading to heart. There needs to be ROI.

 

I also will not be paying a dime for a kid who isn't highly motivated and working hard and just being responsible in general.

 

I guess I am on the other end of the spectrum from my generous dh. I think life is hard, and I don't intend to shield the kids from that forever. I don't want the kids to have unrealistic expectations. I do want to preserve harmony in the marriage. We need to sit down as a family and get everyone's expectations out there, and come up with a plan everyone can live with.

[AnitaMcC]

Dh and I will not pay for our kids college education. We just feel that the kids have to earn their college education by working hard in high school and getting scholarships/grants. And we can't afford to put them all through college (6 kids). We will help out in ways that we can. There are so many ways to pay for college, and if the kids work hard... they will get what they need.

 

We figure that if that if the kids get their education expenses covered, we will be able to help out with room and board. They will need to work part time for spending money and their bills (car, insurance, cell phone, etc). Otherwise they will need to live at home and commute.

[74Heaven]

We have 5 kids so that may not be very much. My dh is nearing mandated retirement age so our income could take a dive in the next few years.

 

I put myself thru 100% and truthfully, there is a huge benefit in that. However, all my choices were based on "the cheapest way" to do "x". I lived on my own virtually all of my college days and spent little or not time socializing thru college.

 

Thus, I feel that I missed out on a lot and I might even be more well-rounded (lol) if I had not had to work so hard. I might have learned more and I might have applied myself to more enriching activity if I wasn't always tied to making money for food, rent and tuition :().

 

I want to float an idea here though. It sounds a little pie-in-the-sky but what if parents, (think tight budgets & multiple kids), paid a little less each year? Ideally, the child would become more independent. But probably the child would just be very poor and have to drop out???

 

Like $5000 the first year; then $4000, $3000, $2000, $1000. Or make that $10,000, $8000, etc. etc.

 

I like that it gives parents a way to more accurately forecast and budget.... but I'm not sure it is realistic?

 

lisaj

[Nicole M]

We've arranged our lives so that our children will not have to pay any tuition (complete tuition remission), but will only be responsible for room and board during the undergraduate years.

 

As far as offering help during graduate studies, I really think it would partially depend for me on what my boys wanted to study, and how much their potential earnings would be after graduation. For instance, my oldest is considering a music degree, and if he goes down that road, gets an MA or DMA and ends up conducting a church choir and giving voice lessons, then yes, I would want to help as much as possible. If he decides to go into environmental science, then I'm thinking there will be more earning potential after graduate school, so I would not feel as apprehensive about him taking on a smidgen more debt.

 

Of course, I might change my mind, but that is where I am leaning right now. I am hoping that what we have saved from living an extremely simple life will allow us to support our boys' educations as much as possible.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Nicole M

[jld]

I really appreciate all the replies. I actually thought I would hear more criticism than I have. I'm open to that, too, as I think we can all learn an awful lot from evidence-based criticism.

 

I'd also like to hear anyone's thoughts on the financial independence aspect of parent/adult child relationships. I'm thinking it's pretty important, but no one has offered any comments on it. I don't know if that means it's so obvious there's nothing to say about it, or if that's such an off-base idea it's not worth addressing.:) Surely people have something to say on this . . .

[choirfarm]

I really appreciate all the replies. I actually thought I would hear more criticism than I have. I'm open to that, too, as I think we can all learn an awful lot from evidence-based criticism.

 

I'd also like to hear anyone's thoughts on the financial independence aspect of parent/adult child relationships. I'm thinking it's pretty important, but no one has offered any comments on it. I don't know if that means it's so obvious there's nothing to say about it, or if that's such an off-base idea it's not worth addressing.:) Surely people have something to say on this . . .

 

Are you asking how it affects the relationship? For me, my parents paid my way through Baylor and I worked summers for spending money. Actually parents got divorced and dad lost his job halfway through, so grandparents helped out the last couple of years. My parents always felt like school WAS my job. I earned 2/3 of the money in scholarships. I ended up having to go an extra semester to get my student teaching done and I told my parents that they should support my sister who would be a freshman that year and I would handle my last semester. I got scholarships, grants and a teeny loan (1,500) that paid my living expenses, but I moved back in the dorm.

 

Dh's parents saved since he was born and paid his way through college and medical school. So he had no debt. Once again, they viewed school as his job. He was summa cum laude and whatever that honor society is as well and made honor society for med school as well. We eventually bought them a car when theirs were going out and his dad had early retirement. His dad had always wanted a truck, so we bought it for them and said thank you for supporting us. He was so excited!

 

We have been saving since the first month each kid was born. Dh thinks it is a priority. But we are a cash/saving people. Other than the first year that we lived on my first year teaching salary, we have lived way below our means and saved, saved, saved.

 

Christine

[cathmom]

I find American culture in general to be focused on independence to an unhealthy degree. If I am in a position to help my grown child, and they need help, why wouldn't I help them?

[Jane in NC]

 

I also think that financial boundaries are really important for healthy parent/adult child relationships. Honestly, I think financial boundaries are probably the main boundaries between parents and their adult children. Once you're paying your own way in life, you are truly independent.

 

 

 

 

I'd also like to hear anyone's thoughts on the financial independence aspect of parent/adult child relationships. I'm thinking it's pretty important, but no one has offered any comments on it. I don't know if that means it's so obvious there's nothing to say about it, or if that's such an off-base idea it's not worth addressing.:) Surely people have something to say on this . . .

 

Well I'll step into this part of the conversation. Your initial use of the word "boundaries" may have thrown me off a bit. And maybe that is because I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that my eighteen year old son is now an adult. But he is not independent--he will stay on our insurance, we will help fund college, and I am certainly going to keep an eye on his finances for him. He has asked me to do so. I manage the money in this house, day to day and investments. By NC law, my name can remain on certain accounts until he is 21.

 

And that seems to mire of the situation. Adult? Technically. But as it has been noted previously a hundred and one times, colleges examine parents finances whether or not parents say they are contributing to the costs of a child's education.

 

There is sometimes a sense of almost ferocious independence that some need to feel that they accomplished A, B, C without Anyone's help. As one who has a bit of an independent streak, I can appreciate this, but I must admit in retrospect that I am not sure that complete independence is the wisest course. Example: suppose parents can pay for health insurance for their 20 year old but choose not to. Suppose 20 year old ends up in the hospital for three days with some strange infection. Twenty year old negotiates payment plan and has a harder time getting ahead financially but pats herself on the back for her independence. And the parents are supposed to be proud?

 

I was reading a book recently by an author who purchased a small farm with her husband's grandparents. The deal was that the younger couple cared for the older, the older helped watch the grandchildren, everyone had a richer life. Apparently there were family members who were appalled that these households combined--again it is that unwritten rule that as adults we must forge our own way.

 

It is not that I want my son to remain at home. In fact, I encouraged him to apply to colleges out of our state so that he can experience the regional differences in our country. I want him to find his passions and be successful in these endeavors--but he is welcome back at home if he falls on his face or has serious misgivings about his choices.

 

Perhaps some people make steps to "complete" independence when a child is in high school, to push him out of the nest if you will. We have not. We are viewing college years as part of the time when lessons are being learned and waters being tested for later life.

 

Granted, my parents did not keep their finger in my financial pie when I was a college student but I only had a checking and savings account. Perhaps because my son has investments, more complicated tax returns, etc. that he will need help longer. Or perhaps he will want the help because we are an open family who discusses financial things. My parents did not. Privacy ruled for them.

[jld]

Thank you, Jane and Christine, for your replies. It's probably easier to save when you have a high income from the start, Christine. Nevertheless, you are setting a prudent example that we would all be wise to consider.:)

 

Jane, I hear you about 18 not being what it was 30 years ago, much less 40 years ago. The economy has just changed so much. A child like yours, from a family with parents who are highly educated and financially comfortable, as well as psychologically healthy (not to be taken for granted), who is himself in a comfortable financial position, is just going to have a different life than a child in less fortunate circumstances. The questions are going to be different. The life, at least starting out, is just going to be very different from the average American kid's.

 

My concern about financial boundaries is that I think at some point, and maybe I don't know where that point is, kids really need to be standing on their own two feet. And parents need to back off and respect their kids' decisions, even if they don't agree with them. And they need to be able to stand by and let kids take responsibility for their decisions without feeling like they are somehow responsible, needing to rush in if things look kind of scary.

 

Maybe I should give an example. Ds11 (okay, I know he's young, and things could change) would like to be a writer. This makes me pretty nervous. Let's say he goes to our local U and gets a degree in English. And let's say one of his profs talks him into getting a master's in English, and he ends up $40k in debt, with no job prospects different from the ones he had after his parent-paid bachelor's. I think that, even though my dh and I would likely have tried to talk him out of the master's, if he decides to go ahead with it, we would have to just bite our tongues and not reach for our wallets. And if he ends up working at Subway anyway, and rueing the day he deciding to pursue the master's degree, we have to just let him talk it out, and maybe help him come up with a plan to pay off his debt and get a realistic career plan going -- once again, without reaching into our wallets.

 

I think at some point kids need to know that there are reasons their parents save and sacrifice. For those of us who emerged from the working class or lower middle class into the middle class, likely through going to college, and have then raised kids in the middle class, it can sometimes feel to us like our kids have no idea how lucky they are, and how much we wish we could have grown up like they did. They take so many things for granted, like getting books new, or just getting books because they want them. They take ballet lessons, or music lessons, and have active parental support for these activities. They may feel a little pressure from the parents to use their time wisely and do the best they can, whether in studies or activities, because the parents know what an opportunity these things are for the kids to develop themselves. The kids may just see it all as kind of a pain, at least at the time, even if they do at least somewhat enjoy the activities.

 

And I think parents need to be careful, in trying to give their children opportunities their parents wouldn't have even thought of giving them, whether they couldn't or didn't want to, that they don't end up feeling a bit resentful and taken for granted by their children. I just don't think it's wise for parents to sacrifice everything for their kids. There needs to be some thought given to what everyone in the family wants, not just the kids.

 

These are my thoughts right now. I'm not sure they are that wise, because they don't have experience behind them. It's tricky to plan for the future only knowing what we know today. But if some of us don't plan, there will not be resources available in the future. So as imperfectly as we are doing it, we do try to look ahead and put together some kind of financial and relationship strategy.

[JFSinIL]

I have a friend who majored in English all the way through her PhD from University of Chicago.

 

She joined the Foreign Service! She was Deputy Chief of Mission at our embassy (2nd in charge) in Zagreb, Croatia last I looked.

 

A bil got a Master in English, then one in computers, and has been working for Donnally publishing in Chicago for years.

 

So an English degree need not mean working at Subway....

[jld]

Lol, JFS. I may have been reading too many college debt stories lately . . .

 

Dh says I need to have more faith in the kids. I guess I just think life is very, very hard, and bad things always seem to be happening (what a pessimist! lol), and why add on financial difficulties?

 

Fortunately we are two in this marriage, and hopefully the optimist at least balances, if not has a little more leverage, than the pessimist ;).

 

Thanks for your reply, and thank you, too, cathmom. I hear what you're saying, but maybe I am too stubborn (!) to feel comfortable without the ability to be able to say no to other adults, parents or other relatives, which I think comes from being financially independent.

 

But hey, maybe I'm wrong.:)

[Jane in NC]

 

I think at some point kids need to know that there are reasons their parents save and sacrifice. For those of us who emerged from the working class or lower middle class into the middle class, likely through going to college, and have then raised kids in the middle class, it can sometimes feel to us like our kids have no idea how lucky they are, and how much we wish we could have grown up like they did. They take so many things for granted, like getting books new, or just getting books because they want them. They take ballet lessons, or music lessons, and have active parental support for these activities. They may feel a little pressure from the parents to use their time wisely and do the best they can, whether in studies or activities, because the parents know what an opportunity these things are for the kids to develop themselves. The kids may just see it all as kind of a pain, at least at the time, even if they do at least somewhat enjoy the activities.

 

Quite honestly, we have provided for a life of interesting educational opportunities for our son, but not one of material clutter. My son had fewer things that most of his peers growing up, but he had traveled far more extensively. Since he was younger, I made him aware of the trade offs: do you want to spend $20 per month on the latest video or would you rather have me pay $200 tuition for a science class? Science class always won. By including him in the process of decision making, he learned why we as parents value certain things over others.

 

My sister and I grew up in the same household with the same parents (obviously). Yet she and I are so different. She felt that we were deprived and consequently showered her kids with material things as well as paid for loads of classes, sports, etc. It was not the material things that I lacked as a child--it was financial security when I was a student. Thus I became a hyper saver. I just think it is amusing that the same environment produced one spendthrift and one frugalista.

 

I have a friend who majored in English all the way through her PhD from University of Chicago.

 

She joined the Foreign Service! She was Deputy Chief of Mission at our embassy (2nd in charge) in Zagreb, Croatia last I looked.

 

A bil got a Master in English, then one in computers, and has been working for Donnally publishing in Chicago for years.

 

So an English degree need not mean working at Subway....

 

I am also old enough to remember when once former cutting edge companies (like IBM) hired liberal arts graduates because they wanted people who could think. That pendulum always swings...

[jld]

You've done a great job, Jane. Your son is very lucky to have the mother he does.:)

 

I hear you on kids coming out of the same home and being very different individuals. My sister didn't finish college and makes at least $100k more than my dh. She definitely felt materially deprived growing up. I felt the lack of stability in our parents' home to be a greater burden, and one much harder to overcome.

 

I think ultimately we will be supportive of our kids no matter what they decide to do. We want them to be happy. We learned last summer that it's not wise to take too much for granted in life, especially life itself.:) But I'm pretty sensitive to just how weak the safety net in our world can be, and just how dependent most of us are on a regular income, health insurance, and retirement accounts, not to mention regular savings. Balance, balance . . .

[cathmom]

. I just think it is amusing that the same environment produced one spendthrift and one frugalista.

 

 

My oldest sister spent like there was no tomorrow. My next oldest sister is a miser who will not spend money on anything for herself.

 

:001_smile:

[QueenCat]

I find American culture in general to be focused on independence to an unhealthy degree. If I am in a position to help my grown child, and they need help, why wouldn't I help them?

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: I could hit the "I agree" button a million times.... you said it best. As a mom, I feel I should help my child in any way I can... even after they turn 18 and are legally an adult. Thankfully, my parents are great examples of "what comes around, goes around".

[creekland]

Quite honestly, we have provided for a life of interesting educational opportunities for our son, but not one of material clutter. My son had fewer things that most of his peers growing up, but he had traveled far more extensively.

 

:iagree: This has been our life as well. We're anything but materialistic. And then cap off the past two years with the economy severely dropping our investments and work hours - all of which we shared with our boys in a "matter of fact" sort of way and even our travel has had to drop out as a luxury.

 

I'm confident that our middle class raised boys have a decent grasp on life as much as I had in my younger years. Yes, our experiences were different, but they will do fine.

 

My sibling probably felt deprived with our upbringing. Even in her poverty - and perhaps causing her poverty - is her need to own everything and anything from DVDs to perceived collectibles. It's sad.

 

I suspect our boys will be able to make a nice "go" of adult life on their own, but as long as their choices are reasonable, we'll help out as we need to for as long as we need to. Should they opt to become consumers extraordinaire (or maybe it IS ordinary) then they are on their own. My parents have quit "helping" my sister too.

[Laura Corin]

I don't want my Dc to have to pay for college. I want their attention to be focused on only their school work. I remember when I went to school how hard it was for those who paid some of their college costs. It was very challenging and in some ways detrimental.

 

We will pay for their fees and living expenses (at a low rate) for term time for their first degrees, but they need to work in the holidays (vacations) for anything more that they want. If they want to do postgraduate degrees, they will have to think hard and decide how to finance them for themselves.

 

Laura

[jld]

If you help your children as adults, how do you make sure that everyone feels respected and able to freely disagree with one another? Don't the receivers of money feel somewhat bound to agree with the money providers? Am I getting this all wrong?

[choirfarm]

Thank you, Jane and Christine, for your replies. It's probably easier to save when you have a high income from the start, Christine. Nevertheless, you are setting a prudent example that we would all be wise to consider.:)

 

.

 

 

Oh no.. we did NOT have a high income from the start. I have the ledger from our first year of marriage when he was in his last year of med school. To be honest, looking at it, I'm not sure how we did it, but we did and had savings bonds automatically withdrawn..it was just 50 bucks but it was a start.

 

 

christine

Edited June 7, 2010 by choirfarm

[jld]

Saving, paying down the mortgage, handling credit responsibly -- all important parts of financial stability. You've set a good example, Christine, and it sounds like your family shares your values. Keep enjoying the fruits of your labor!:)

[TravelingChris]

I think another thing that the financial aid thing is not fair is that many people are inherited money or getting help from parents/grandparents. There is a huge difference with someone in our income group who doesn't have own a house or any property and has no relatives who have ever helped with financial matters like helping with a down payment or giving a home or a car and someone who has the same income but a home that has a positive equity and who had help all along the years from family. We don't have saving where we can pay 13K a year from for education. Any small savings we have will go to an eventual down payment on a home after dh retires.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Well, I kinda see us as paying for a good bit of it by preparing them early on to dual enroll. If I can get them through at least half of their Bachelor's degree for free, then I will not have a hard time asking them to help out a little for the rest if the need arises. Our hope is to get them through 4 years without taking on a job and also living at home for all 4 years. It that works out, then we will have saved a great amount on housing too, so if it were necessary for them to pay a little, then I wouldn't feel so bad, but I'm hoping scholarship or grants will cover the rest. We shall see in just a few short years!

[jld]

I think another thing that the financial aid thing is not fair is that many people are inherited money or getting help from parents/grandparents. There is a huge difference with someone in our income group who doesn't have own a house or any property and has no relatives who have ever helped with financial matters like helping with a down payment or giving a home or a car and someone who has the same income but a home that has a positive equity and who had help all along the years from family. We don't have saving where we can pay 13K a year from for education. Any small savings we have will go to an eventual down payment on a home after dh retires.

 

How about it, Christina! I definitely hear you. I think I just can't relate to people who have close relationships with their families and where there is a guilt-free, non-coercive nature to their interfamily financial dealings. In my family of origin, you automatically lose your voice in family affairs if you borrow money. Everything is remembered for years. Freedom is more important to me than money, I guess.

 

I do think people born into healthier, more truly loving families are extremely fortunate. I also think many people take a lot of credit for where they are, when, in fact, they started off pretty lucky, whether by the family they were raised in, or the talents, the raw gifts, they were born with, and how those are compensated in the marketplace. A person may have talent in history, but may not be rewarded the same way financially as someone talented in computer science. This is not to say people don't deserve credit for making wise choices; they absolutely do. But it is easier to make wise choices when you have an example to follow and some raw talent, especially talent readily valued in the marketplace, to work with.

 

Maybe some of these questions are just too individual to be really helpful on a message board. Maybe the families we come from determine too much of our views for them ever to be able to be changed. Maybe the fears in our hearts are just not going to go away, no matter how much we seek reassurance. We can learn so much from each other, but maybe, in the end, each path is unique and springs from the heart of each individual, or each couple.

 

I appreciate what people have said, but we all come from such different backgrounds, and are living different realities, and maybe have different views depending on how old we are. I would like to thank each person who has contributed to this topic, and the fact that there have been so many people viewing this thread likely means others have benefitted from it, too. Once again, thank you.

[Joan in GE]

jld - I'm glad you started this thread as it is making me reflect about our coming decisions about Master's level studies and who is paying for ds2...

 

About your situation, one thing might also be your husband's European background...Here in Switzerland, I think parents are responsible for educational expenses until the age of 25...I have to check for sure, but it is definitely up there...I don't know what it is in France....

 

But then, fees are nothing near what they are in the US either...

 

Also, it is much more common for young people to keep living with their parents, the oldest I generally hear about are the Italians where men in their 30's are still at home...

 

But back to education...here, family roots are very important. (I know CH is quite different from France, but there could still be some similarities). Students who go to school way across the country (5 hours by train) still come home for the weekend. (Not all of course, but it is not uncommon). So parents are quite in the picture during college....Maybe it is also because countries are smaller than the US...So the independence thing is quite a different matter for some Europeans.

 

Then too, the differentiation between a Bachelor's and a Master's is a newer invention after the Bologne accord...They frequently just went for 5 years before and came out with a higher level than a Bachelors...so your dh might not have such a strong differentiation in relation to the fees and degrees...

 

And doctors don't study so long over here, generally I think they start their medical studies right out of high school...so the fees for a medical degree might not really have sunk in for your dh...plus their internship programs are completely different than in the US...he might not really have an idea of the total cost involved...

 

(An aside) We recently had a German medical student for dinner. She was applying for an internship in gynecology here. They get almost no training. It is not like in the US where you have a specialty and get guided instruction...It is hit or miss, no special classes or anything. While it keeps the costs down, it makes a real difference among the doctors...You don't know the background of the doctor at all.

 

Since he was younger, I made him aware of the trade offs: do you want to spend $20 per month on the latest video or would you rather have me pay $200 tuition for a science class? Science class always won. By including him in the process of decision making, he learned why we as parents value certain things over others.

 

 

This is a very good idea. I haven't usually been making known the inner calculations....I'm going to try to do this...

 

Joan

[jld]

LOL, Joan. So dh and I are from the same planet, but just different parts of it?:)

 

Yes, we have had real issues about time spent with his parents. For years he assumed we would spend all possible time with them, and finally I put my foot down. France seems somewhere between America and India in terms of children's commitment to their parents.

 

He has seen the cost -- around $200k in our state for a medical degree, and he still expects us to pay it if at all possible. I guess he thinks I am going to stay in India for 25 years. What scares me is that I probably will if that's what he wants. I hate that about myself! And I'm too financially phobic to take a loan if it's possible to avoid it.

 

Joan, thank you so much for chiming in on this. You always have such helpful insights.:)

[Hannah C.]

My parents were unable to help me pay for school. So they helped by keeping me on their insurance, paying for my cell phone, outfitting my student apartment (meaning small appliances and sheets -- the furniture was included), paying for personal necessities, and things like that. That ended when I got married in January though! ;)

 

My parents did not cosign on my loans or try to run my finances for me. I have taken out loans, and they are only mine. I really appreciate this, because I feel like it gives me more of a stake in my education. It also means I have the independence to choose whether or not to continue my education, what my major is, etc. I am very, very grateful that my college education is *MINE* and not my parents', and I think part of that is because I'm the one financing it, not them. This is not to say that parents could not help and let their children control their education at the same time. However, from what I see with college friends, parents who have a financial stake in children's education often translates to children who are 21 and still not able to make their own responsible decisions as independently as perhaps they should be able to. Just my two cents, however..and I'm still young, so my perspective is different! :)

[jld]

Thank you, Hannah. I hear you on owning your education. I'm glad you and your parents were able to work out an arrangement you all feel good about. I think what you have observed about your classmates will help you as you make decisions for your children in the future.:)

 

I have a feeling we're going to end up paying for everything we possibly can. Our kids seem pretty responsible so far so it probably isn't a great risk. I think I was just shocked by the idea of paying for graduate study, as that was never in my plan for our kids. But I'm getting used to the idea, and am starting to make peace with it.

 

It really and truly is a sacrifice on our part. Dh and I will not have that money available to do anything we may have wanted to do. It really will all be invested in the kids. To dh this seems absolutely normal, and exactly the way parents should behave towards their children. Clearly this is all a very new and extremely generous idea to me, and I honestly didn't think our responsibilities to our children extended this far.

 

I hope it will bless them and our relationship with them. I think I just have to work on my heart and make sure it will truly be a free will offering, without any strings or resentment attached.

Edited June 10, 2010 by jld

[Mrs Mungo]

If I had tons of resources I think I would still have my dc pay for half their education. Something like this...dc pays for the first semester, if grades are good we pay for the second and continue the cycle. This makes them own their education (not goof away the time) and yet gives them a relief from a huge financial burden.

 

Oh, and I'd be done with the Bachelors.

 

I agree. If they want to get an advanced degree, they will need a scholarship, work/study/etc. We might help them out, if needed, but I don't see continuing to fully support them at that point.

[K-FL]

 

 

It really and truly is a sacrifice on our part. Dh and I will not have that money available to do anything we may have wanted to do. It really will all be invested in the kids. To dh this seems absolutely normal, and exactly the way parents should behave towards their children.

 

 

 

Just wondering. . .What does your dh expect his retirement to be like? Is he expecting the dc to return the financial favor & support him or does he have other ideas?

 

If you all are fine w/the multi-generational living AND the finances are there to support it, I don't see a problem. But what about the future dc spouses? They are an unknown factor. Personally, while I may live w/one of my dc, I don't want to be totally dependent on them.

[jld]

We have retirement accounts and our house is paid for. I assume we will live in our home until we can't anymore. I don't plan to live with our kids, especially any married boys. I like being the queen of the castle, I guess.

 

I took a little closer look at the numbers today, and all I can say is that dh and I really need to have a talk. This really will require all our discretionary income for the next 30 years, based on this year's prices, dh's salary, and continuing to live in India. I just don't think it's realistic. And I think it's above and beyond what middle class American parents do, based on the replies I got here. Dh really loves the kids and is devoted to them, but I'm not sure the kids expect this much sacrifice from us.

[creekland]

We have retirement accounts and our house is paid for. I assume we will live in our home until we can't anymore. I don't plan to live with our kids, especially any married boys. I like being the queen of the castle, I guess.

 

I took a little closer look at the numbers today, and all I can say is that dh and I really need to have a talk. This really will require all our discretionary income for the next 30 years, based on this year's prices, dh's salary, and continuing to live in India. I just don't think it's realistic. And I think it's above and beyond what middle class American parents do, based on the replies I got here. Dh really loves the kids and is devoted to them, but I'm not sure the kids expect this much sacrifice from us.

 

Are you factoring in any scholarships and/or need based aid? If not, you might be pleasantly surprised with some extra if you have your kids apply to a variety of colleges. Yes, there are some students that pay the sticker price, and if they can afford it, great, but most of us get some sort of assistance. My oldest got far more than I expected. Now I'm trying to make sure I don't "count" on that for my other two, but I'm also not paying sticker price either as I know there are other possibilities.

[justamouse]

We re taking on as little of our children's education as possible. I have a dear friend who thinks it's her responsibility to also pay for her two children's educations and she is so broke right now she will have nothing when the kids are done. Nothing. And they live in Westchester NY and her kids are going to presitgious schools. Nothing. They are living paycheck to paycheck.

 

Sorry, I'm not doing it. It's irresponsible of me to be a burden to my children when I'm older. We are all about the education, not the name of the school on the diploma. And doing it the most economical way possible.

[Jane in NC]

We re taking on as little of our children's education as possible. I have a dear friend who thinks it's her responsibility to also pay for her two children's educations and she is so broke right now she will have nothing when the kids are done. Nothing. And they live in Westchester NY and her kids are going to presitgious schools. Nothing. They are living paycheck to paycheck.

 

Sorry, I'm not doing it. It's irresponsible of me to be a burden to my children when I'm older. We are all about the education, not the name of the school on the diploma. And doing it the most economical way possible.

 

But I don't think that assuming some financial responsibility for a child's education is equivalent to spending $50K+ per year. That is usually where I see disconnect in these discussions. I do think that I as a parent have a responsibility to help pay for my son's education, recognizing that our financial situation and the fact that we have one child allows us to do so. For some parents, assisting in post-secondary education means helping guide a student to find colleges that are a good fit which also provide merit aid. For others, it may mean paying for a community college degree or the student's room, board and transportation while the student commutes from home.

 

Because I choose to help my child does not mean that I provide an open checkbook for every whim. Most parents whom I know are in this camp, recognizing that college has become necessary for many jobs and too expensive for most students to afford on their own.