I'm not understanding some things about hs'ing and teaching writing

[plain jane]

I've been browsing around on various websites looking at state standards as well as talking to friends who have kids in PS and private schools. A lot of the kids (who are grade 5 and down) have a great deal more variety in *what* they are writing than my dc do.

 

Granted, I have only used 3 writing curricula, WWE, IEW, and WT, as well as the writing assignments in Shurley so I'm not knowledgeable on what else is available on the hs market. There seems to be a lot of different genres of writing "out there" that the PS kids are doing and I'm wondering how, or more accurately, if, they all fit into the hs side of things.

 

I hear of kids in PS, again in grade 5 and younger, required to write out the following:

 

recipes

biographies/autobiographies

persuasive paragraphs

narratives including the 4W's

research reports (as young as grade 2)

retelling of stories from different points of view

book reports

different kinds of poetry

creative stories

writing new book jackets for their favorite books

newspaper articles

paragraphs comparing and contrasting characters in novels read

descriptive essays

informative essays

 

 

And more!!

 

In fact, I should add that there are quite of hs'ers that I know that are now teaching these different genres of writing and are seeking out the curricula that teach them or pulling the materials together to do it themselves.

 

I do recall reading that a lot of schools had tried to overcome poor student writing by simply having them write more but not necessarily with proper instruction. Now, I am *not* of the mindset that more writing is better writing, but I am curious how all of these fit into the homeschool? Do you other moms teach or have your kids do these kinds of assignments? Are there curricula out there that focus on these? What is the benefit to children to have them writing in all these different genres by the time they are in grade 5? What are the drawbacks of not teaching them? At what point should I be teaching them? I know that some, such as the essays should be covered in older grades but do my dc need to cover all of rest of these (and more) to have a well rounded education?

 

What if I never teach how to write a newspaper article?

 

I'm a bit lost here so I need y'all to set me straight when it comes to writing. I want to follow the progymnasmata or SWB's writing program but I'm not knowledgeable in teaching writing enough to know if I'm on the right track or simply missing the bigger picture. :confused: I need someone to tell me it's okay to not cover some of these things above or to help me figure out how to cover them with my dc (which curricula to use). I had a hs'ing acquaintance tonight look at me with with pity in her eyes because I wasn't covering some of these, like the biography, with my children.

Edited June 2, 2010 by plain jane

[Peela]

I think if you read and listen to SWB's articles, books and talks on writing, you will get a great idea of a structure that works very well for building skills.

 

I have found it is quite possible to adhere to that strucutre, foundationally, and add in more creative exercises at times to add variety. Both my kids love to write imaginatively (evne my reluctant writer), and over the years we have done a fair amount of that- while also maintaing a routine of working on the central age appropriate skills SWB talks about. I have at times dropped the outlining or narrations to do something different, then gone back to them.

 

I think schools have it too much at the creative end of the spectrum and not enough at the teaching skills in a methodical way end. But adding in some creative exercises is not so hard here and there. Over the years we have done free writing (from Bravewriter), written articles, short stories, and taken a historical character and written a story or an article about them. I have found ideas on the internet, and sometimes they come up in our writing programs and I tweak them.

 

You can do both and you can do it just how you like it and tweak it all exactly for your kids. You are in charge, not any program. Trust yourself and enjoy.

[Aubrey]

I suspect that if you or your dc were the type that might need (if that's not too strong a word) these other types of writing, you'd know. There'd be an itch, & making your own dust jacket for a book, writing your own newspaper, etc. would scratch it, & some of you would be in heaven.

 

But there's no reason to torture those who aren't built that way (imo) w/ that kind of writing. The basics of a news article are probably good for jr high/highschool, at a minimum, but really...the creative aspects are just (I think) to make things like book reports a little more appealing, more open-ended, & thought-provoking. Because you never know what it is that will finally pull the switch on the lightbulb for a kid.

 

I was terrible at writing until 5th g. We were never taught any kind of process, but in 5th g, our teacher gave us a line drawing to describe. It was the most overwhelming, boring task I could imagine. There was too much going on to describe, I objected. She insisted, though, & everyone else dutifully churned out a descriptive paragraph. I became a writer.

[hornblower]

I really suggest you download & listen to SWB's mp3's about teaching writing (avail from the peacehill press site). She specifically addresses this issue of 'but the kids in ps are doing this & all we're doing is narration/dictation/copywork'.

 

I recently got all 3 levels & found them very helpful.

 

:)

[EthiopianFood]

I suspect that if you or your dc were the type that might need (if that's not too strong a word) these other types of writing, you'd know. There'd be an itch, & making your own dust jacket for a book, writing your own newspaper, etc. would scratch it, & some of you would be in heaven.

 

I'm not sure I agree. I learned how to write an excellent essay in high school. I got to college, and was very embarrassed to realize that I was clueless when it came to writing anything INTERESTING. There are different formats for different writing needs, and I think our kids should understand them as part of a well-rounded education. Just because something doesn't come naturally to someone, or because they aren't drawn to it of their own volition, doesn't mean they shouldn't study it!

[Aubrey]

I'm not sure I agree. I learned how to write an excellent essay in high school. I got to college, and was very embarrassed to realize that I was clueless when it came to writing anything INTERESTING. There are different formats for different writing needs, and I think our kids should understand them as part of a well-rounded education. Just because something doesn't come naturally to someone, or because they aren't drawn to it of their own volition, doesn't mean they shouldn't study it!

 

But we can't study everything, & by college, a student is not truly deprived if he's never made a dust jacket or written a "Recipe" for a "Happy Family" which requires 3c of love to be squeezed w/ hugs & dusted w/ kisses & baked for years. Kwim?

 

A good writing teacher will help students make their essays interesting. The creative stuff will just shut some kids down, & for no good reason, really.

[plain jane]

Wah. Y'all are stressing me out. :001_unsure: First, I'm really not creative enough to come up with interest ideas for writing- say writing a newspaper article that interviews a character out of a novel, second, I don't know how to approach a task like that, and third I really have no clue how I would mark/rate/grade a piece of writing like that. I just don't know what to expect. :001_huh:

 

I am really quite lost when it comes to teaching writing. :( I have listened to SWB's mp3 on writing in the elementary and middle school but she doesn't cover all these other genres and how they fit into the big picture.

 

Are there any fun/interesting curricula out there that I can use to introduce some of those genres to my kids?

 

Help. :tongue_smilie:

[EthiopianFood]

But we can't study everything, & by college, a student is not truly deprived if he's never made a dust jacket or written a "Recipe" for a "Happy Family" which requires 3c of love to be squeezed w/ hugs & dusted w/ kisses & baked for years. Kwim?

 

:lol: That's just stupid filler though, not helping them tap into their own creative ideas. I hope. :D

 

A good writing teacher will help students make their essays interesting. The creative stuff will just shut some kids down, & for no good reason, really.

 

I was never good at being artistic or creative. I'm not really wired that way, and I am a perfectionist. There is no "right" way to do creativity, so it just never worked for me in school. :D That being said, I wish I had developed this skill somehow. How is this area different than other areas that are difficult for some children? Shouldn't they be required to stretch their little brains? It doesn't have to be a constant part of the curriculum, but why wouldn't you want to cover it to some extent? Do you not teach art either?

[EthiopianFood]

Are there any fun/interesting curricula out there that I can use to introduce some of those genres to my kids?

 

I think this is a good question. You might want to create a thread just for this question in the curriculum section, to generate most replies!

 

I don't think you should be worried. Honestly (and this is purely my opinion, so take it or leave it), kids today suffer from not being able to write formally. All this creative stuff hasn't done them a lick of good in helping them know grammar, etc. If ALL you teach is the formal stuff, your children will still be served very well! If they know how to form a good sentence/paragraph, and know how to organize their thoughts, those are skills that will apply to formal AND creative writing.

 

Please don't worry about this. PS is such a waste of time for so many children. Don't ever compare what you are doing to what they are doing, as long as you are doing a solid program. So much of it truly is filler. I lived it. Trust me. LOL Think of what they are doing as writing "art class," and what you are doing as English 101.

[plain jane]

I think this is a good question. You might want to create a thread just for this question in the curriculum section, to generate most replies!

 

I don't think you should be worried. Honestly (and this is purely my opinion, so take it or leave it), kids today suffer from not being able to write formally. All this creative stuff hasn't done them a lick of good in helping them know grammar, etc. If ALL you teach is the formal stuff, your children will still be served very well! If they know how to form a good sentence/paragraph, and know how to organize their thoughts, those are skills that will apply to formal AND creative writing.

 

Please don't worry about this. PS is such a waste of time for so many children. Don't ever compare what you are doing to what they are doing, as long as you are doing a solid program. So much of it truly is filler. I lived it. Trust me. LOL Think of what they are doing as writing "art class," and what you are doing as English 101.

 

See, that's what I believed all along... if you teach them to form good sentences and paragraphs, how to organize their thoughts, and use proper grammar that it would serve them well. I guess I'm having some nagging doubts lately that I need to address. *sigh*

[EthiopianFood]

See, that's what I believed all along... if you teach them to form good sentences and paragraphs, how to organize their thoughts, and use proper grammar that it would serve them well. I guess I'm having some nagging doubts lately that I need to address. *sigh*

 

I already mentioned that I can't do creative writing, but proper formal writing is a big deal to me. The writing skills that are showing up today are absolutely atrocious. ATROCIOUS. Your kids can learn history, science, whatever, later on if they care to, but writing comes up ALL THE TIME in some capacity or another.

 

Are you using all those curricula right now, or have you just dabbled? I think more experienced homeschoolers would say that it is very important to stick with a curriculum for the long haul (barring it not working for your child in a big way), because jumping around is actually what will cause learning gaps. Many people use more than one curricula, but they do use whatever they have chosen CONSISTENTLY. Ask on the curriculum forum about the pros and cons of what you are using. Ask if users feel there are any blind spots. Ask how to combine programs to get what you are looking for, if necessary. People want to help. :)

[plain jane]

I already mentioned that I can't do creative writing, but proper formal writing is a big deal to me. The writing skills that are showing up today are absolutely atrocious. ATROCIOUS. Your kids can learn history, science, whatever, later on if they care to, but writing comes up ALL THE TIME in some capacity or another.

 

Are you using all those curricula right now, or have you just dabbled? I think more experienced homeschoolers would say that it is very important to stick with a curriculum for the long haul (barring it not working for your child in a big way), because jumping around is actually what will cause learning gaps. Many people use more than one curricula, but they do use whatever they have chosen CONSISTENTLY. Ask on the curriculum forum about the pros and cons of what you are using. Ask if users feel there are any blind spots. Ask how to combine programs to get what you are looking for, if necessary. People want to help. :)

 

Yes, I am using all the curricula right now although we are now done for the year. :) I've used IEW and WT together for the last 2 years. I used IEW until they came to the next unit then we'd switch and do two or three stories from WT before moving on to the next IEW unit. I also used WWE but it's something we did at the end of the school day and not during "writing". We've finished WT1 and WT2 so my plan is go into Homer in grade 5. I'm not sure if I want to continue with IEW. I can't put my finger on it exactly, but it's not the program for this child.

 

I do strive for consistency, and I thank you for that reminder. It's very important to me too. I may be a curriculum junkie who adds in stuff here and there but I don't jump around.

 

I like your suggestion about asking on the K-8 board about combining programs to get what I'm looking for. I guess I need to really figure out what that is. I'm pretty sure CW is what I'm looking for, but again, it's not going to cover a wide variety of genres. I need to do some further research as to how important that really is.

[EthiopianFood]

I like your suggestion about asking on the K-8 board about combining programs to get what I'm looking for. I guess I need to really figure out what that is. I'm pretty sure CW is what I'm looking for, but again, it's not going to cover a wide variety of genres. I need to do some further research as to how important that really is.

 

You know, on the flip side of being consistent, how can it be a bad thing to be open to redefining your priorities? We're ALL learning as we go, aren't we? :) Good luck!

[Rhonda in TX]

This is pretty much why I'm using SL LA next year (Core 6) with my 7th and 8th graders. I want more variety in their writing assignments, and I'm hopeless at coming up with them myself. SL has tons of writing, much more than we've ever done before. I do not, however, feel bad about waiting until these ages to have them do this much writing. My DS would have cratered trying to write in all those different formats at such an early age.

 

We have used IEW in the past (love it!), and will be doing the assignments using IEW organization techniques.

[Rosie_0801]

There was a similar thread on the high school board a few months ago. I'm trying to find it...

 

Rosie

 

Edit: Argh. That's why I couldn't find it. It was on the K-8 board! http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176732&highlight=grown

Edited June 2, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[angela in ohio]

recipes

different kinds of poetry

creative stories

writing new book jackets for their favorite books

newspaper articles

 

 

The above are totally unnecessary, imho, other than poetry, and I think that is something best done outside of a writing curriculum.

 

The rest of the assignments you listed are all taught in IEW or can be written from one of the units in IEW.

[elegantlion]

I really suggest you download & listen to SWB's mp3's about teaching writing (avail from the peacehill press site). She specifically addresses this issue of 'but the kids in ps are doing this & all we're doing is narration/dictation/copywork'.

 

I recently got all 3 levels & found them very helpful.

 

:)

 

:iagree::iagree: Listen and listen again, then read WTM again.

 

I agree with Aubrey too, kids that are naturally creative are going to be writing creatively on their own. I wrote poetry in math class (not that I was supposed to be doing that), I wrote short stories in our basement. Sitting beside me I have a box filled with story ideas from childhood to five minutes ago.

 

I would NOT grade those creative writing efforts, especially at your dd's age. Encourage only.

 

I'm sure if you poke around at some teacher websites you can find some creative type prompts, but I would use them as extras.

 

Some prompts I might use:

 

- Write an ad promoting your favorite cereal, say Fruit Loops :D. Use as many adjectives as you can to describe the taste and smell. Then describe how it makes you feel and why others should eat Fruit Loops.

 

- Pick an object in your house. Tell a story of how it came to your house, but give the object a personality and tell the story from its perspective.

 

~Paula (whose mind is blank because I've had no coffee, but got up early to work on story :lol:)

[angela in ohio]

.

Edited June 2, 2010 by angela in ohio

[angela in ohio]

I think schools have it too much at the creative end of the spectrum and not enough at the teaching skills in a methodical way end.

 

I don't think you should be worried. Honestly (and this is purely my opinion, so take it or leave it), kids today suffer from not being able to write formally. All this creative stuff hasn't done them a lick of good in helping them know grammar, etc. If ALL you teach is the formal stuff, your children will still be served very well! If they know how to form a good sentence/paragraph, and know how to organize their thoughts, those are skills that will apply to formal AND creative writing..

 

:iagree:

 

I think these assignments are more about the product. They look good hanging on the bulletin board. They make it look like the students are doing a lot of writing. But it's not the right kind of writing. Students learn to hate writing through these open-ended creative assignments. It is much better to teach them that writing has an understandable form and can be mastered.

 

I suspect that if you or your dc were the type that might need (if that's not too strong a word) these other types of writing, you'd know. There'd be an itch, & making your own dust jacket for a book, writing your own newspaper, etc. would scratch it, & some of you would be in heaven.

 

I agree with Aubrey too, kids that are naturally creative are going to be writing creatively on their own...

 

I would NOT grade those creative writing efforts, especially at your dd's age. Encourage only.

 

:iagree:

 

I teach my children the skills they will need for college and life. They will need to know non-fiction writing. They write stories and such in their own time. Children who have access to excellent literature and are taught to write sentences will be able to write creatively if they desire.

[MBM]

As someone who afterschools, I have rarely seen ANY decent writing assignment from my children's schools. Almost all of it has been creative, time-consuming drivel. I would love to see progressively meatier assignments.

 

The other problem is that too many of our teachers do not offer constructive criticism. I'd appreciate if they would dissect the paper and offer suggestions. More red ink, please.

 

Anyway, don't despair. Much of what schools teach is puff-and-fluff or the latest fad.

[Kim in SouthGa]

We have tried a lot of different things for writing, and I think SWB's plans are the best. My kids always balked at those types of assignments and said they were stupid. Really, unless you are an author or publisher, why in the world would you ever need to write a dust jacket description? It seems like a lot of hype to try to make writing fun, but truth be told, it's just like math and spelling-a progressive skill that you have to buckle down and learn. The creative side comes naturally for some kids and you'll see it by the way they spend their free time (my dd chooses to write stories and lists and plans, etc on her own while my boys would rather pick the lint out of the dryer than copy a sentence :glare:) After you get the structure down, let them experiment and try out some creative stuff. But my experience has been that it's hard to get those creative thoughts out if you don't have the basic structural skills firmly in place. That being said, my oldest did learn to love the 5-10 minute free writes describe in Bravewriter. He came up with a character and wrote some science fiction scenario almost every week. He had no interest in editing it and trying to make a cohesive story, though-I tried;).

[creekmom]

Please post this question on the K-8 forum. There are some ladies with a lot of wisdom to pass on who never visit the general forum. I'd love to hear their responses. I think it's easy when you homeschool to lower your expectations simply bc you're not aware of what other kids the same age as your own kids are doing in ps. - Not that we're competing with the ps, but if something were to happen to me and my kids were put in school, I'd hate for them to be "behind"! So, I ask my friends who have kids in ps what kinds of things they're doing just so I know my kids are on the right track- KWIM?

[Nestof3]

Teaching the basic writing skills -- organization, outlining, focusing on writing great sentences and paragraphs will carry over into any writing a person does. From a common sense standpoint, I recognize that few people end up in a field where creative writing would be required, and few people write creatively for life. There are people who enjoy journaling and such, but those people would be writing of their own free will anyway.

 

My 10 year old son has always enjoyed creative writing. He loves reading fables (esp. Aesop), folktales, fantasy (esp. Oz stories), and nature stories (esp. T. Burgess) and he has begun writing his own fables and fantasy tales. He usually uses MS Word (adding google images as well), but he also has fun with Storybook Weaver.

 

On his own, he also writes:

 

recipes (usually copying them from a Betty Crocker cookbook) into some scrapbook-style cookbooks he bought from Tuesday Morning. He also copies Redwall recipes from books.

 

poems

I read poetry almost every day we do school. When he was little, Nathan taped "We have a little garden" from Beatrix Potter to the window so that I would see it when I drove into the driveway. He has also written his own poetry; he especially loves writing about nature and writing in haiku. He wrote one recently about the seasons and personified the wind and such like Thornton Burgess does.

 

Research reports

Again, he writes these on his own. Often it is just copying info as he has not been taught how to put things into his own words, but he frequently writes a report from books he reads on his own and videos that he watches (he did one on the Transcontinental Railroad, the Mayflower, African animals, etc.) He then presents them to us.

 

They both write advertisements for neighborhood magic shows and such that they put on. They come up with catchy marketing phrases. They write little books about things they are interested in as well.

 

I do teach poetry styles to my kids, and they both really enjoy poems.

 

I hear of kids in PS, again in grade 5 and younger, required to write out the following:

 

recipes

biographies/autobiographies

persuasive paragraphs

narratives including the 4W's

research reports (as young as grade 2)

retelling of stories from different points of view

book reports

different kinds of poetry

creative stories

writing new book jackets for their favorite books

newspaper articles

paragraphs comparing and contrasting characters in novels read

descriptive essays

informative essays

[Hikin' Mama]

I haven't read all the replies, but I agree that most of these are unnecessary, and simply "look good" in a classroom display. Hmmm...no one taught me how to write a recipe, but I have a whole book full of recipes I've copied. : ) If you can write a good essay, you should be able to do a book jacket. Etc., etc. I also agree that unless you enjoy writing creatively, or are an author, there is no need to practice creative writing. I never needed it in high school or college.

 

I feel that it's much better to be able to think, reason, and present a good argument. A student needs to be able to organize his ideas in such a way that a reader will be able to understand his message. A solid foundation in grammar is also necessary to be a good writer.

 

I would listen to SWB's workshops on writing. Very good, very common sense. I trust her advice, because I've read five of her history books, and I think she is an awesome writer. She also teaches composition. I've never used her writing materials, because they weren't created yet when my kids were that age.

 

Take this for what it's worth, though. I am not a writing expert, nor do I play on on the internet. :D

[Aubrey]

I was never good at being artistic or creative. I'm not really wired that way, and I am a perfectionist. There is no "right" way to do creativity, so it just never worked for me in school. :D That being said, I wish I had developed this skill somehow. How is this area different than other areas that are difficult for some children? Shouldn't they be required to stretch their little brains? It doesn't have to be a constant part of the curriculum, but why wouldn't you want to cover it to some extent? Do you not teach art either?

 

You have misquoted me. I rarely speak as brusquely on the boards as the "stupid" comment you inserted.

 

I did not say that I do not teach creative writing. As it happens, I write novels for fun; my children love writing, reading, & are very creative. If they weren't, however, I wouldn't force it, & I wouldn't worry about it. Why make a kid feel bad about what he can't do well or doesn't enjoy? I prefer to help them explore their strengths & work on those while shoring up necessary weaknesses.

 

With art, I'd teach art appreciation rather than force creativity. With math, I teach multiplication & division. I don't force my non-mathy kids to build bridges or do "fun" math things. I require the basics; I offer things beyond that.

[Strawberry Queen]

I think that it's most useful to take the long term approach. What skill will be useful in the long term. I agree with those who leave creativity to the child. I tried using WS and my dd didn't like the assignments. She would rather work on the same skill but with a different subject (like describing something but not her room).

 

I use SWB's writing plans for the meat of my program. It's simple and inexpensive. It also accomplishes teaching the skill in a short amount of time. If my dd's come up with an idea for creative writing I will let that replace their narration/dictation for a week while they work on something different. After that week they can complete their creative writing on their own time.

 

For instance, my dd in 4th was given an assignment to write a narration about the Great Depression in Canada after talking to her grandparents about it. She asked if she could express the information through characters writing letters to each other. I said sure and that has her embarked on a loooong term writing project. It ended up turning into a diary and her characters are now on a world voyage. (she has read a lot of Dear Canada, and Royal Diaries) She is enjoying her project and is writing and researching for it, but I would never have given it to her.

 

I personally don't stress the creative writing. I think most assignments are time consuming and useless. If you believe that the best plan is what you're currently doing then go with that. You have chosen a solid method that is well thought of in hs circles. I would encourage you not to stress over what others are doing. They probably don't have a strong foundation in narration and dictation, or retelling a story like you have given your kids. People may look at you with pity in their eyes, but you can do the same to them. We are teaching individuals. Our plans need to match the individuals we teach. so just put a smile on your face and tell them that you're glad that they've found what works for them. Then you could expound on what works for you.:D

 

HTH

[msjones]

I used to teach these types of writing projects when I taught public school. We were expected to teach a 2 hour LA block each day; included in the block was writing.

 

One real benefit of these types of assignment: they allowed kids to work at their own levels.

 

For example -- one project I did (with 2nd graders) was a "Questions and Answers" book. This was a beginning research project. The kids chose a topic, listed questions about the topic, checked out library books on this topic, read, picked a few questions they could now answer, and then wrote their answers. The focus was on writing correct sentences that answered the question. Then the kids drew a small illustration for each answer.

 

I worked up a sweat dashing around the room to help all the kids! The project probably took 8 class sessions from start to finish. But the books turned out well each year. The kids had worked on basic sentence structure and punctuation, writing good questions, choosing a manageable topic, and working toward some deadlines. I loved this project! Most of the kids enjoyed it, too.

 

Some kids did 2 questions. Some did 12. Most did 5 or 6. Some wrote very simple one sentence answers. Some wrote paragraphs. Some needed me to help them read the research books to them. Some kept going back to the library so they could read more and more. Some had to dictate the answers to me and then copy them into the final books. Others did all the writing independently and in cursive.

 

All this to say -- I think these types of projects work well in a classroom setting where the teacher needs to accommodate so many different ability levels while teaching LA. That's probably one reason the OP hears about so many writing projects of this type being taught in traditional schools.

[Nestof3]

You have misquoted me. I rarely speak as brusquely on the boards as the "stupid" comment you inserted.

 

I did not say that I do not teach creative writing. As it happens, I write novels for fun; my children love writing, reading, & are very creative. If they weren't, however, I wouldn't force it, & I wouldn't worry about it. Why make a kid feel bad about what he can't do well or doesn't enjoy? I prefer to help them explore their strengths & work on those while shoring up necessary weaknesses.

 

With art, I'd teach art appreciation rather than force creativity. With math, I teach multiplication & division. I don't force my non-mathy kids to build bridges or do "fun" math things. I require the basics; I offer things beyond that.

 

:iagree:

[angela in ohio]

I require the basics; I offer things beyond that.

 

This could be my new homeschool motto. :D

[KrissiK]

I taught jr. high english from time to time, and coupled with my own struggles writing, it seems to me that a huge problem is getting kids to take what it is in their heads and bring it through their pencil to the paper to make it sound right. It's not the genre so much as the ability to make whatever it is you are writing sound correct. That, to me, is the beauty of teaching kids to narrate, which I believe is a crucial first step in learning how to write correctly. At times I am concerned that my own 6 & 7 year olds aren't putting out a huge quantity of writing, but I have noticed a significant development in my oldest son's ability, through the narrative process, to articulate what he is thinking. So that, along with the copywork, will help him naturally to write. I also notice, that reading aloud to my children helps them think in terms of complete sentences. I have never had to get my kids to add a verb to their sentences. Even in the small amount of "creative" writing we do, somehow my sons "naturally" know what a complete sentence is supposed to sound like, which I know is not natural but a result of all the complete sentences they have been exposed to. I am a firm believer now, that in the younger primary grades a foundation for good writing is indeed laid in narrations, copywork and copious amounts of being read aloud to, and not necessarily sitting around doing creative writing.

[EthiopianFood]

You have misquoted me. I rarely speak as brusquely on the boards as the "stupid" comment you inserted.

 

I had to go back and see what you were referring to. That was my comment; the bolding didn't show up. When I speak that way, I would say it is "irreverent." :001_smile: Sorry for the confusion. I will certainly remember that you don't speak brusquely, if something ever seems unclear to me. I would like you to know that I rarely say things to purposely be offensive, in the event that I am unclear in the future!

 

I did not say that I do not teach creative writing. As it happens, I write novels for fun; my children love writing, reading, & are very creative. If they weren't, however, I wouldn't force it, & I wouldn't worry about it. Why make a kid feel bad about what he can't do well or doesn't enjoy? I prefer to help them explore their strengths & work on those while shoring up necessary weaknesses.

 

With art, I'd teach art appreciation rather than force creativity. With math, I teach multiplication & division. I don't force my non-mathy kids to build bridges or do "fun" math things. I require the basics; I offer things beyond that.

 

I think we are just viewing creativity in different ways. I think it is an area that can and should be strengthened, not just left to develop however children see fit. I don't think it has to be forced though. I think this falls under "shoring up their weaknesses," as you so aptly put it.

[kalanamak]

Teaching the basic writing skills -- organization, outlining, focusing on writing great sentences and paragraphs will carry over into any writing a person does. From a common sense standpoint, I recognize that few people end up in a field where creative writing would be required, and few people write creatively for life. There are people who enjoy journaling and such, but those people would be writing of their own free will anyway.

 

 

:iagree::iagree:And whatever skill I have learned in making my writing something above dull, I learned from CONVERSATION. You practice on a live audience (your family and friends, or sometimes total strangers) and see what rings bells and what falls flat. (One of my favorite memories was the entire day I spent waiting in many long lines trying to get a driver's license in lower Manhattan. Hours. I struck up a lively conversation with a skinny law student with a sparkle in his eye and we started trading funny stories. After a while we got those around us going, and about 8 of us spent well over 5 hours relating ruined camping trips, bizarre brothers, oddball divorces, scams an FOAF pulled off, bad car trips, food poisonings, and medical misadventures.)

 

As SWB has pointed out, learning the mechanics of writing while trying to be creative is a double whammy that is too much for most kids. Practice writing mechanics and the ART of conversation when they are young. Okay, that's my dogma for the night.:)

[EthiopianFood]

OP, I'm going to add, after thinking about this some more, that I'm sure you can encourage creativity in informal ways, and with that solid writing foundation you are giving them, they will be able to put that creativity on paper. Even just reading a variety of literature will give them ideas. Then, when you find curricula that teaches creative writing, you won't actually be starting from scratch at all, and they can be a good supplement, not something to stress about.

[TravelingChris]

I think most schools make students write too early. SWB ideas about how to approach writing is very sensible. This past year, however, I was very surprised by how many students I had who didn't know how to do a book report. THese were high school students. WIth that paper and the research paper I assigned, I had a number of students who didn't understand that these were not supposed to be persuasive essays. I tried to explain a number of times that in most college classes, the professor is uninterested in your opinions but rather wants the facts. I allowed in the book report for a final paragraph expressing whether the student would recommend the book and for whom but I really didn't want any other personal opinions. I was perplexed that at least one senior had her first research paper be the one I assigned.

 

I do think that journalistic writing is useful in other fields since the style is most important points first, details later. This style is often what is needed in business and the work community.

[Aubrey]

I think we are just viewing creativity in different ways. I think it is an area that can and should be strengthened, not just left to develop however children see fit. I don't think it has to be forced though. I think this falls under "shoring up their weaknesses," as you so aptly put it.

 

Well, I sure did come across cranky, though, didn't I? Sorry about that! Rereading things in the morning can be so embarrassing! And thank you for your gracious response.

 

I do think that we're coming at this from two different pov's--my education & personality are highly creative, such that it would be easy for me to accidentally forego practical things. Since that part is relatively natural, I try to focus on the less natural things, like consistency, for ex. :tongue_smilie:

 

My point was simply that I'd hate for anyone to ever feel *badly* about not offering a shmorgusboard (I spelled it wrong enough that y'all wouldn't suspect that I thought I knew how to spell it!) of creative writing assignments. I do think creativity is valuable & certainly teachable, but I think different kids will exhibit creativity in different ways. Ds, for ex, is *much* more creative w/ his math, buildings, & inventions than w/ language. Having to produce words of any kind causes him to break out in a cold sweat.

 

Surprisingly, though--& this may actually do more to defend your position than mine!--ds does better at history narrations when I make them creative. For ex, a straight narration typically gets, "I don't know" & a blank expression that makes me want to scream.

 

"If you could meet someone from your history lesson this week, who would it be & why?" "If you could travel back in time, when would you go & what would you do?" These kinds of questions do get better answers from him, because he's thinking (I guess) about strategy & ideas instead of getting bogged down in the words themselves.

 

Huh. You might have just changed my mind. :001_huh: :001_smile:

[Mom-ninja.]

I really suggest you download & listen to SWB's mp3's about teaching writing (avail from the peacehill press site). She specifically addresses this issue of 'but the kids in ps are doing this & all we're doing is narration/dictation/copywork'.

 

I recently got all 3 levels & found them very helpful.

 

:)

 

SWB talks should put your mind at ease. Ha! Writing with ease...mind at ease. :lol:

[FairProspects]

I think most schools make students write too early. SWB ideas about how to approach writing is very sensible. This past year, however, I was very surprised by how many students I had who didn't know how to do a book report. THese were high school students. WIth that paper and the research paper I assigned, I had a number of students who didn't understand that these were not supposed to be persuasive essays. I tried to explain a number of times that in most college classes, the professor is uninterested in your opinions but rather wants the facts. I allowed in the book report for a final paragraph expressing whether the student would recommend the book and for whom but I really didn't want any other personal opinions. I was perplexed that at least one senior had her first research paper be the one I assigned.

 

I do think that journalistic writing is useful in other fields since the style is most important points first, details later. This style is often what is needed in business and the work community.

 

Actually, this is directly opposite of my experiences in college and grad school (I graduated a little over 5 years ago). I haven't written a book report since about 6th grade; every paper from 7th grade on was a persuasive essay, using the "facts" to support your thesis. I even graduated with a writing major (History), and I was never once asked for a straight report. This is not to say at all that there are no facts or quotes in college writing, but in my experience, all research papers at the college and graduate level now are persuasive essays (including my Master's thesis), with possible exception of science or lab reports.

 

ETA: Its also possible that we are talking semantics. Obviously, it would not be okay in a college paper to say "I liked Jane Eyre, everyone should read it," but professors would want a thesis like "Jane Eyre has difficulty expressing her feelings for Mr. Rochester because she does not believe that they are equals in class, intellect, and temperament," (arguable idea - and honestly, this is not a particularly strong thesis, just the best I could come up with off the top of my head, LOL) rather than "Jane Eyre has difficulty expressing her feelings to Mr. Rochester," (statement of fact).

Edited June 4, 2010 by FairProspects