Another manners question

[Mom-ninja.]

My grandfather is visiting. He is 90. I know that some (many actually) manners are becoming obsolete. For example when a woman walks into the room he always stands up until the woman sits down or she tells him to sit. You will also never ever catch him with a hat on his head while inside especially while sitting at the table to eat.

 

I have wondered for some time if I should teach my boys these manners. I do tell them to take their hat off when they eat. However, my DH doesn't unless I remind him. He did not learn this manner while growing up, and he pointed out to me that no one does anymore. I noticed that he is right. I never see a man take his hat off when eating. DH says he only wears a hat when his hair is messy so he doesn't want to take it off. I'm not sure how I feel about that. My dad (due to my grandfather and being in the military for 24 yrs) was strict about boys not wearing hats inside.

 

So do you teach your sons to remove hats, and stand and offer their chair when a woman walks in the room?

 

How about opening a door for a woman?

 

I saw one woman who became angry when a man opened a door for her. She hissed at him that she was capable of doing it herself.

[KatieJ]

Well, actually, we did teach our sons and are now teaching our grandsons that it is appropriate to remove your hat when inside. I think it stems from teaching them to remove their hats when they pray, whether or not they are inside or outside.

DH and I were not taught that men stand up when a woman enters the room, so we do not teach that one. Altho I admit I think it is a pretty cool thing to teach!

I did try to teach my sons and my daughters actually that they should give up their chair when an elder walks into the room. I don't mean elderly, but someone who is somewhat older than they are. I think it is immensely rude to have children sitting in all the chairs, sofa, whatever and expect the adults to sit on the floor or go in search of more chairs.

[OrganicAnn]

I think that men wear hats for different reasons today. In the past it was part of the uniform like wearing a coat on a cold day. They always wore them outside. Women used to always wear hats when they went shopping or to church. So these days men wear hats when their hair is a mess or if they are balding. I think they should not wear hats in others people's homes especially at meals or in nice restaurants. If they are going to another's homes or a nice restaurant their hair shouldn't be a mess. But other than that, the rules are up for debate. Military hats of course should follow military rules.

 

You always hear of the one woman to was mad someone opened a door for her. I used to work in an office with heavy doors and I never saw anyone ever get upset when someone opened a door for other person - male or female, old or young. I do get annoyed when someone thinking they are being polite and opens the door for me while I'm still quite a way from the door and then lets me know by some little comment that expect me to hustle to get to the door so as not to inconvenience them. If I have to jog to the door, then I'd rather walk and open it myself. It is a no win situation.

Edited April 10, 2010 by OrganicAnn

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I teach my kids to open doors for other PEOPLE, particularly if someone has their hands full.

 

That being said, I hate having a door opened for me just because I'm a woman. To me, it implies that I can't open 'that big ol' heavy door all by my little ol' self, me being a weak woman and all'. :glare:

 

The hat thing I don't have an opinion on one way or the other.

[hornblower]

no hats inside

 

don't open doors for anyone except people who have their hands full & obviously need the help

 

hold doors for everyone behind you, regardless of gender

 

the standing up when a woman walks into a room is more difficult. I think if a new person walks into a room, it's polite to stand to greet them. But not each time a woman walks in - not anymore.

 

I think it's more a matter of being aware of these manners & customs and teaching the kids to be sensitive to their surroundings. It's more important to use the right manners for the right milieu than to rigidly stick to some etiqutte rule.

 

 

I do insist on excellent table manners, esp using utensils properly - & for me that means the European manners.

 

 

 

btw, I was taught to stand to speak to a teacher. My first months in a school in North America, I had huge bruises on my thighs - we didn't have these joined up chairs and desks and I was used to leaping up to speak to a teacher. I constantly whacked my legs......

[LibraryLover]

It is hoplessly old-fashoned, but I have told my boys to take off baseball caps inside certain places (and why)-- the hospital, an office building, church etc. Of course, I am also the one who doesn't know when tennis shoes/sneakers became fine for funerals. Or weddings that weren't at the beach or, was not stated to be casual *right on the invite*.

 

Is there never a time to dress? lol Gosh, I really am aging. lol I am a most casual person, in general. I just do not understand why so few people own actual shoes. Or why any male adult would not go to Payless and buy shoes for a funeral or an evening wedding?

Edited April 10, 2010 by LibraryLover

[asta]

I bought my son Essential Manners for Men: What to Do, When to Do It, and Why by Peter Post (Emily Post's great-grandson).

 

Then I made sure he read the entire thing.

 

His manners improved dramatically. He also asked about reading "the original" (Emily's book). Then again, kid is an Aspie, so he needs "rules" for situations, since he can't really pick up on social cueing.

 

HTH

 

 

a

[Janasjots]

I think when you look at manners, at the heart of almost every issue was honor. The reason we have manners is to show honor to others. Even something as simple was what outfit you were supposed to wear to a 7pm dinner party. It used to make it easy for people to know how to behave so nobody would show up casual to a nice event and feel awkward. Anymore, you have to call and ask because you never know.

 

Yes, I am quite old fashioned in my 34 years but I do teach my boys to take their hats off. I teach my boys to offer their chairs to anyone older, female, or even younger. (Incidentally, when I lived in Russia, this was still common practice in public transportation. Elderly, women with children, women, men, then youth seated in that order. You got booted out of your seat if you didn't give it up.) And I teach my boys that they are to open the door for me or any other person. It shows honor. We desperately need some balance to a world that s so self-centered.

 

Conversely, I also teach my girls that when a boy offers the chair, you sit, whether you feel like it or not! Again, it honors the person who's willing to sacrifice for you. And I make a BIG point of thanking any man in public who will hold a door for me. I'm not weak and I don't think anyone looking at me would think me feeble but I will gladly take that place of honor if someone wants to give it to me.

 

For that matter, what kind of a person has the room of rise to their feet when they enter? Presidents? Heads of state? Prime Ministers? When men used to rise to their feet for women, it put women on the same level of honor as those power brokers of the world...and we threw that back in their face so we could be equal.

[creekland]

We teach our boys any manners we can think of - hats, doors, chairs, rising when senior people come into a room, etc. Then we tell them when they are all appropriate - interviews, grandparents visiting, certain situations, etc. We try to teach them to seek social cues for when they should be more formal and when they should be more casual. (Sort of a when in Rome do as the Romans do sort of thing.) So far, it's worked very well.

 

Incidentally, we adults look for the social cues too, so our boys have also seen modeled what we teach in words. Our house is super casual - other places, not so. I've had several people comment on my boys' good manners, so it appears to work even when we (parents) aren't around.

[JulieJ]

Along with all the manners already listed above, I have also taught them how proper shake a person's hand!

 

I don't think this is taught much anymore.

[juelle]

I think when you look at manners, at the heart of almost every issue was honor. The reason we have manners is to show honor to others. Even something as simple was what outfit you were supposed to wear to a 7pm dinner party. It used to make it easy for people to know how to behave so nobody would show up casual to a nice event and feel awkward. Anymore, you have to call and ask because you never know.

 

Yes, I am quite old fashioned in my 34 years but I do teach my boys to take their hats off. I teach my boys to offer their chairs to anyone older, female, or even younger. (Incidentally, when I lived in Russia, this was still common practice in public transportation. Elderly, women with children, women, men, then youth seated in that order. You got booted out of your seat if you didn't give it up.) And I teach my boys that they are to open the door for me or any other person. It shows honor. We desperately need some balance to a world that s so self-centered.

 

Conversely, I also teach my girls that when a boy offers the chair, you sit, whether you feel like it or not! Again, it honors the person who's willing to sacrifice for you. And I make a BIG point of thanking any man in public who will hold a door for me. I'm not weak and I don't think anyone looking at me would think me feeble but I will gladly take that place of honor if someone wants to give it to me.

 

For that matter, what kind of a person has the room of rise to their feet when they enter? Presidents? Heads of state? Prime Ministers? When men used to rise to their feet for women, it put women on the same level of honor as those power brokers of the world...and we threw that back in their face so we could be equal.

Oh, yes.:iagree:

[kewb]

I have taught both my son and daughter to hold doors open for the person behind them. I taught them both to open the door for someone with full hands.

 

I taught them to say Thank you when someone does this for them.

 

No hats indoors. If you sit at the table at home or in a restaurant the hat comes off.

 

Standing when someone walks in-no, it had not occurred to me.

 

Offering your seat when on public transit-yes, it is just good manners to offer your seat to someone elderly, clearly pregnant, or just bone tired looking.

[Ellie]

Hats off, please. Please.

 

Standing when a woman enters the room...maybe not. Certainly not around the house, maybe if there's a guest.

 

Something I wish I'd taught my dds was to come out from wherever they were to be introduced to visitors. Some friends from another country taught their dc to do that, and I admired it, although it was too late for me to change. :-)

 

But yes, hats off.

[Teachin'Mine]

Just tell them that hats cause premature balding. :lol:

 

I agree - men and boys should not wear hats inside whether eating or not. But it's obvious that many don't agree as you see it done so often.

[Renthead Mommy]

Hat comes off when you go inside. That's pretty easy since it's a military thing. But our other big rule is hats, meaning baseball style hats, have to be worn straight forward, or straight turned backwards. No wearing it sideways or turned.

 

I don't specificly teach opening doors, but do teach 'help people as they need it'. If someone's got a bunch of bags, hold the door. If they drop things help them pick it up. If they look like they could use a hand/some help, and their is something you can do to help, then do it.

[Orthodox6]

What I do not understand is why good-natured people with friendly intentions who choose to use manners that might be called "formal" today, so often are ridiculed.

 

That's all ! :>)

[Kate in Arabia]

 

Something I wish I'd taught my dds was to come out from wherever they were to be introduced to visitors. Some friends from another country taught their dc to do that, and I admired it, although it was too late for me to change.

We do this, and another part of local culture here that we have adopted is that when you enter a room of people you go around and greet/shake hands with each person (gets a bit lengthy when you enter a room with a lot of people, lol). I remember years ago we had gone home for a visit and went to a family gathering at my aunt's house, they were surprised when my ds (he was probably 7 or 8) went around to say hello and talk briefly with everyone.

[mom4him]

Just because the main populous doesn't do it doesn't mean it isn't good manners and should be taught.

[Orthodox6]

We do this, and another part of local culture here that we have adopted is that when you enter a room of people you go around and greet/shake hands with each person (gets a bit lengthy when you enter a room with a lot of people, lol). I remember years ago we had gone home for a visit and went to a family gathering at my aunt's house, they were surprised when my ds (he was probably 7 or 8) went around to say hello and talk briefly with everyone.

 

I was raised in Texas and trained by my parents to do come out (of hiding ?!) and do this same thing when people visited our home. Same practice if we went to a family/friends gathering elsewhere. I'm just "standard Anglo" ethnicity.

[Kate in Arabia]

 

I was raised in Texas and trained by my parents to do come out (of hiding ?!) and do this same thing when people visited our home. Same practice if we went to a family/friends gathering elsewhere. I'm just "standard Anglo" ethnicity.

I'm of a similar ethnicity and was raised in Kentucky, we had the same "come out of hiding rule". I was struck here more about the greeting-each-person-individually-in-a-gathering custom. I can't remember seeing that growing up, maybe it happened and I've blacked it out lol. As my parents got older they were more of the "our friends are your friends" camp; we called all their friends by their first name (incidentally I call my dad by his first name, always have).

[Doodle]

I love this thread :thumbup: and am following with great interest.

[EmilyK]

This is very interesting. My husband and I grew up knowing all these things, and still practice them, but haven't been good about teaching them, except for basic table manners. Anyone have some good book suggestions, especially as read alouds with 7 or 11 year old boys? Or videos?

[mrbmom77]

My brothers were actually taught to stand up when a woman entered the room but don't do it anymore. (This was in the 80s and came from our stepfather, not mom's family.) I don't teach this particular one as I've never known anyone else to do it and it always made my maternal grandmother uncomfortable.

 

Other than that, I'm an old-fashioned Southern girl - I expect hats to be off inside & doors to be opened for me if there's a man near one. My son holds doors for everyone - male, female, young, or old.

 

I also teach my kids to always use "ma'am" & "sir" - drives me nuts to hear "yeah" from a kid. I know this is a regional thing, but I was raised in Texas and I find it extremely rude. If we moved up north, I would still expect my kids to use it but wouldn't expect everyone else to.

 

My kids come out to meet visitors out of sheer nosiness! :) They do shake hands, though I never consciously taught them to - just saw it at church all the time.

 

My kids call most of my friends Miss or Mr + first name. Church people are Bro or Sis + last name unless they request first name.

 

Just so no one thinks I'm Scarlett or something, I'll tell you I've never been married, supported myself since I was 15 and am raising 2 kids without any financial support from anyone else - including the government. I'm quite capable of opening a door or carrying a heavy box or anything else that needs doin', but if a man wants to do it for me, I take it as respect and good manners, not condescension.

[Ellie]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[mommylawyer]

I read the op to my DH. His response is: Why do you need to wear a hat indoors? There's no rain, no sun... Why?

 

For me, I can't stand to see a man wearing a hat indoors. If my husband is wearing a hat for the reason his hair is messy (which he wouldn't, but I'm making a point), then I'd tell him to brush it or otherwise fix it so it isn't messy.

 

I believe manners are something you teach as the incident happens. For example, I'm an attorney and have seen judges teach the hat lesson by saying, "Bailiff, remove that man's hat for him!"

Edited April 10, 2010 by mommylawyer

[rookie]

Yes, I teach my boys all of these manners and more.

 

I ask them to open the doors for my daughters and me. OF COURSE I CAN OPEN THE DOOR FOR MYSELF. As can just about any woman. I do not see this courtesy as a man being sexist but rather that he is being gracious and a gentleman. Good grief!

 

I also teach all of my children to get out of a chair if there is an adult standing - particularly older adults and women. It is a way for them to show respect.

 

I also teach them to hold doors for all people carrying packages and anyone behind them.

 

We are on them about table manners.

 

Everyone removes a hat indoors. They are FOR outdoors.

 

We dress appropriately to the occasion: dress clothes for the opera or a place of worship, somber dress clothes for a funeral, bathing suits for a beach!

 

Why not have a little civility? Decorum? Manners that imply respect? I think our entire society could use a good dose of Confucius.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

no hats inside

 

don't open doors for anyone except people who have their hands full & obviously need the help

 

hold doors for everyone behind you, regardless of gender

 

the standing up when a woman walks into a room is more difficult. I think if a new person walks into a room, it's polite to stand to greet them. But not each time a woman walks in - not anymore.

 

I think it's more a matter of being aware of these manners & customs and teaching the kids to be sensitive to their surroundings. It's more important to use the right manners for the right milieu than to rigidly stick to some etiqutte rule.

 

 

I do insist on excellent table manners, esp using utensils properly - & for me that means the European manners.

 

 

 

 

 

:iagree: I also teach my ds to let adults or elders sit in the only chairs. Whenever we go to library events for kids, there is limited seating and many parents have their kids sitting in this limited seating next to them instead of on the floor:glare:. I really cannot understand this thinking at all since IMHO children should give up their seats to elders in this sort of situation since it can be difficult to say the least for older people to sit on the floor where most of the kids sit in these events. I know from personal experience:tongue_smilie:

[Mejane]

My son has been shaking hands when introduced to someone since he was about six years old. People are astounded when he does it. He opens and holds doors, and removes his hat when indoors. When we visited Disney World, he gave up his seat on the tram to a woman holding a baby. Grown men sat around watching her struggle to stand. I said loudly, "That was very nice of you, X." Most of them looked at the floor. :glare:

[Guest janainaz]

I don't care about hats being worn while we eat. However, if I were to eat with your grandfather, and I knew he considered it to be well-mannered to take it off, I would request that my sons do the same. It would depend on the company we were eating with.

 

I want my sons to open doors for women. I feel it's polite and appreciated. I want my sons to treat everyone with respect. As far as standing up when a woman enters the room, I don't teach them that. Most of society would not know what they were doing.

 

Our society used to be more polite. I do think there is something that was lost when some of these manners stopped being taught to kids. Elders are not respected anymore, women are not treated like ladies, and many kids do feel they are on the same level as an adult. While I don't teach my kids certain "old-fashioned" manners, I do talk to them about being respectful and polite. Part of that respect is keeping an eye open for how you can help someone, and taking notice of the people around you.

 

I noticed the teen-aged neighbor boy across the street running over to help the older gentlemen next door pull weeds. He was insistent on doing it for him and I really liked that. It's not so much about manners as it is about kindness. A kid might address an older person by his/her first name, but his manners are reflected in his actions. I think that kid's actions would make his direct address irrelevant.

[Jan in SC]

No hats indoors-

 

Polite table manners- napkins in lap, left in seat if needed to leave, silverware doesn't touch the table if used, wait until everyone has been served and...if a family meal- grandmother must raise a fork first!

 

Doors should be opened for elders, ladies, held for anyone-

 

Ma'am, sirs- always!

 

Excuse me, may I, please, thank you-

 

Look people in the eye when speaking and shake hands firmly-

 

It is very cute to watch my oldest ds (9) button and unbutton his jacket at church and dinners! He isn't quite sure when to have it buttoned, yet.

[jade]

It's interesting to me that many of the manners people have mentioned are really common sense and politeness. I found out that my son is more interested in manners than I realized when we ate at my mother's formal dining room in her retirement center. No one is allowed to wear jeans in that room, so we had to get a little dressed up. Once we sat down, he asked lots of questions about which knives and forks to use when. He was rather nervous. The food was the same as the informal dining room nearby, altho not the place settings and atmosphere. But it was sweet to see his concern.

 

That said, I just want to admit that on one of the coldest Sundays in January my son wore his cute, Peruvian-style knit hat through the entire church service, as well as a sweater. He ended up going up to the front, as he was volunteered for a part of the service. I cringed a little with his hat on. And altho there are older conservative types in the church, no one said anything. I guess being cold superceded hats off for a boy in this case. I decided not to make a big case out of it on that Sunday.

[justamouse]

I don't mind having a door opened for me, and I hate hats on inside esp at the table. Huh. See? I just learned something abut myself, I'm a stickler for old fashioned manners.

 

Reading everyone's posts, yeah, I agree. I'm huge on handshakes and looking people in the eye. I HATE a wimpy handshake. Nothing bothers me more than a man who won't give a firm handshake.

 

And I also teach my children European table manners when eating out. So much nicer.

[kalanamak]

 

I have wondered for some time if I should teach my boys these manners.

 

While I don't insist on this in every day matters, I do clue kiddo into what to do in more formal situations. We do "mock" dinners, and kiddo sets the table correctly, and leaves his knife across the plate to tell the waiter he is ready to have it removed.

 

My family ate at such places. We do not (I'm too cheap). But I don't want kiddo to be the country bumpkin if he ever does end up in a formal place.

[MamaBlessedThrice]

It is very cute to watch my oldest ds (9) button and unbutton his jacket at church and dinners! He isn't quite sure when to have it buttoned, yet.

 

Umm . . . I guess I don't know, either! Can you clue me in about when it should be buttoned? :)

 

I'm very interested in this thread, myself. My sons are still little, but I realize that I need to be thinking about how to teach these habits NOW. Too often I expect kids to learn subtle things like this by osmosis, I'm afraid, and don't realize I didn't teach it until I'm dismayed to see them NOT DOING IT. (What? You didn't come pre-programmed with that?) Oops. :blush:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Wow. What's with all the "Geeze, Good Grief, throwing it in someone's face"??

 

I simply said that I don't prefer to have a man open a door for me just because I'm a woman.

 

 

I teach my kids to hold a door open for anyone, not to rush to open a door JUST BECAUSE THAT PERSON IS A WOMAN. To me, it does not imply honour or respect. It is putting a woman on the same level as the elderly and infirm. :confused: I'm neither.

 

When a man opens a door for me I don't give him a lecture, frown or otherwise show disapproval. I smile and say, 'thank you'.

 

I must have come across as rude in my previous comment. It was not intended.

[Aubrey]

To pray, at the table, for the pledge/national anthem, no hats. I don't know how I know this--I don't remember being taught--but dh was not really taught. At least, he doesn't pay as much attention to the rule as I do. Like your dh, he wears a hat when his hair's messy & so doesn't want to take it off. Personally, I think messy hair is (usually) a kind of rudeness, if that makes sense. I think it's off-putting to make someone uncomfortable w/ one social...faux paus? just to cover another one.

 

Opening doors--I agree w/ the pp who said for people in general. But if a woman "hisses" at someone who opens a door for her, it is she who has not learned manners, not the person who opened the door. Respecting women for the sake of being women, to me, is like respecting elders. You say, "Mr." & "Mrs." & "ma'am" & "sir." That's just what you do.

 

Why? There's something awesome about people who have survived longer than oneself. There's often some greater wisdom that comes w/ that. (If there's *not,* there is honor in speaking as though that were true, imo.)

 

Likewise w/ women. We bear the mysterious & unique ability to give life. Sometimes that makes us weaker, sometimes stronger, in many ways it's both at the same time. There ought to be honor in the gift of life-bearing, mothering, & I think that things like holding the door are society's way of thanking/honoring the part that does some of the most intimate nurturing & promoting of the species. I think it's a beautiful custom, but I'm not offended if someone doesn't follow it, if that makes sense.

 

Otoh, a pg friend & I (pg, too) were walking into a store one day, & a person (happened to be a man, but gender isn't really relevant to the story), walked out, slamming the door in our faces. I doubt it was on purpose, but it required a level of obliviousness to the people around him that still counts as rude.

 

I'd like to see people offer their best to ea other & assume the best of ea other, whether that means opening doors or not. :001_smile:

[Janasjots]

Along with all the manners already listed above, I have also taught them how proper shake a person's hand!

 

I don't think this is taught much anymore.

 

 

Thank you for that!! I can't stand the wet fish handshake while looking at your feet. My mom tried and tried with my younger brother. It wasn't until he finished boot camp in the Army that he finally had it figured out.