Should PS Teachers Be Fired...

[mom31257]

if students do not progress? I have to say I'm venting a little here and would like other people's opinions to see if I'm way off base.

 

My dh teaches in a public high school that has low tests scores for years. This is his 4th year there, after 16 years in private education. The high school has received a $6 million grant to be used over the next 3 years. There are a lot of strings attached, one of which is firing teachers whose kids do not show progress.

 

My dh has 150 students a day for about 55 minutes each. He has no control over the other 23 hours of those kids lives. How can his job depend on if they improve or not? Are they going to fire all the teachers these kids had before my dh? Better yet, are they going to fire the parents who aren't making them study, go to bed at a decent time, eat well, or encouraging them to want an education? Don't all those things play a part in them progressing? What if kids know this information and sabotage tests of the teachers they don't like?

 

My dh does care about his kids. He wants them to learn, but he cannot make them want to learn. He says that if you have kids who want to learn, even with a mediocre teacher, they will learn something. BTW, he is not a mediocre teacher.

 

He had really good evaluations this year. They have designated certain teachers to get new technology for their classrooms and training. He is one of them. Supposedly this is to reward those teachers who are already checking a lot of technology out and using it. I think with $6 million there should be enough for all the teachers, but that's another discussion!

 

Is it wrong for me to feel this way? Should his job be dependent on kids' tests results?

[littlebug42]

I don't know the answer to your question but I know that the teacher's union in our city with very poor performing schools refused to sign off on a similar stimulus money proposal because of that particular stipulation. When they refused to sign the request, it was dead in the water as that was one of the requirements.

[athena1277]

Here's my 2 cents:

 

I do think there are some teachers who need to be fired (and kept from being rehired elsewhere). However, lately it seems to be less and less the teacher's fault. When the teacher is told exactly what to teach, how to teach it, and when to teach it, with no regard for the student's needs, the teacher should not be blamed. I hear about more and more teachers who are not really allowed to teach. They have no say in curriculum, pace, etc.

 

The teachers are doing exactly what they are told. It's not their fault that the higher-ups made bad choices.

[Carrie12345]

Here's my 2 cents:

 

I do think there are some teachers who need to be fired (and kept from being rehired elsewhere). However, lately it seems to be less and less the teacher's fault. When the teacher is told exactly what to teach, how to teach it, and when to teach it, with no regard for the student's needs, the teacher should not be blamed. I hear about more and more teachers who are not really allowed to teach. They have no say in curriculum, pace, etc.

 

The teachers are doing exactly what they are told. It's not their fault that the higher-ups made bad choices.

:iagree:

I think bad teachers should be fired. I don't think testing can be used as the definitive yard stick.

[JillZ]

I've struggled with this issue too. On the one hand I agree with you completely. On the other hand, if you keep teachers whose students don't show progress, how is that helping the students? Unless you are willing to admit that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the students to improve, it might make sense to keep looking for the teachers that will somehow connect and help their students to improve.

 

I don't know what the answer is, but I think teachers should be treated as professionals, and dedicated teachers should be rewarded. IME, the teachers that should be fired are those who don't take their jobs seriously and don't put much effort or thought into preparation.

[Daisy]

if students do not progress? I have to say I'm venting a little here and would like other people's opinions to see if I'm way off base.

 

My dh teaches in a public high school that has low tests scores for years. This is his 4th year there, after 16 years in private education. The high school has received a $6 million grant to be used over the next 3 years. There are a lot of strings attached, one of which is firing teachers whose kids do not show progress.

 

My dh has 150 students a day for about 55 minutes each. He has no control over the other 23 hours of those kids lives. How can his job depend on if they improve or not? Are they going to fire all the teachers these kids had before my dh? Better yet, are they going to fire the parents who aren't making them study, go to bed at a decent time, eat well, or encouraging them to want an education? Don't all those things play a part in them progressing? What if kids know this information and sabotage tests of the teachers they don't like?

 

My dh does care about his kids. He wants them to learn, but he cannot make them want to learn. He says that if you have kids who want to learn, even with a mediocre teacher, they will learn something. BTW, he is not a mediocre teacher.

 

He had really good evaluations this year. They have designated certain teachers to get new technology for their classrooms and training. He is one of them. Supposedly this is to reward those teachers who are already checking a lot of technology out and using it. I think with $6 million there should be enough for all the teachers, but that's another discussion!

 

Is it wrong for me to feel this way? Should his job be dependent on kids' tests results?

 

:grouphug: Just going to say that I totally understand. My husband is also a ps teacher. :glare: It's just the blame game. Kids are doing poorly for a huge number of reasons. It is easier to have a scapegoat than recognize that this is a systemic problem.

 

BTW, my husband has found it helpful for his job (especially for performance reviews) to keep his own records of tests & assessments. He can always prove that his students are progressing, even if they are not meeting benchmarks. In other words, his class may not be on grade level but he can prove that every single student in his class has measurably learned something. His students usually average a year and a half of progress in one school year but that still leaves many of them below benchmark scores. Those records have to be handwritten by him because all physical tests and assessments are confiscated by the district headquarters and kept in the bowels of the earth (trying to be lighthearted, but deadly serious).

Edited April 9, 2010 by Daisy

[JillZ]

:iagree:

I think bad teachers should be fired. I don't think testing can be used as the definitive yard stick.

 

I agree with this. But the problem becomes, how do you determine which teachers are the "bad" teachers? Some are completely obvious, but others not so much. And though testing shouldn't be the definitive yard stick, it can be a helpful metric for determining how much students have learned. The topics covered on most standardized tests ARE important, and not particularly advanced, and it's a shame if students aren't capable of at least passing the test (if not excelling).

[Kim in Appalachia]

It's easy to blame the teachers, and it some cases it is justified (I know there are awful teachers) But the problem is more complex than just bad teachers. There are lots of decent teachers that have difficult kids or circumstances.

 

I think if they are going to judge teachers by the students' progress, then they need to also judge the principals (who tend to back whiny parents and not teachers) and the superintendents (who like to change curriculum on a whim, or without any teacher's input) as well. The whole school should be held accountable, down to the janitors. And no, I'm not kidding. I've been in schools where nothing gets fixed or cleaned correctly, that is not a good learning environment for kids. How about the secretary? She (or he) should help in keeping track of students, calling the parents when a child is absent, making sure forms get processed correctly for children in need or with disabilities. I would also like to see parents fined if they are negligent in regards to their child's education (to many absences, not helping, etc...).

 

I would also say that the mayors' and governors' of the cities and states should also be held accountable. If education is really a priority to them (as they seem to like to spout that it is), then they should also bear some of the financial responsibility too. I think I'll add to the list the unions. They tend to resist change and things that could be helpful, maybe if they had to pay some sort of fine if the schools didn't "progress" then they would be more willing to embrace some policies.

 

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now. :D

[Orthodox6]

I think it absurd to claim a "one size fits all" solution. Some students cannot learn from a particular teacher. Some teachers cannot fruitfully help particular students. Some curricular products are of such poor quality that neither can a teacher use them productively, nor can a student learn usefully from them. Some students have parents wholly uninvolved yet who could be attentive to the students' education. Some students do not want to learn in the first place. etc.

 

When I was young, school was a sink-or-swim proposition. I don't support that; however, I don't care much for the current babying mentality of "everybody is a winner". A teacher may not fail a student, no matter what the circumstances, without receiving heavy flack and/or consequences.

[Daisy]

The topics covered on most standardized tests ARE important, and not particularly advanced, and it's a shame if students aren't capable of at least passing the test (if not excelling).

 

This simple statement isn't so simple. It is a shame if students aren't capable of passing the test.

 

Why didn't the parents read to them before they started school?

Why don't the parents help with homework?

Why don't the parents show up to sign off on the paperwork that would provide their child with extra tutoring?

Why don't the parents show up for meetings regarding their children's poor behavior?

Why do parents change their phone numbers so they don't have to be contacted?

Why can't the parents speak English?

Why can't the parents get the child a decent night's sleep or something more than a snickers bar for breakfast?

 

Frankly, it would be just as easy to blame the parents as to blame the teachers. Or look I can blame the administrators. Let's fire them...

 

Why didn't the admin provide the teacher with enough textbooks?

Why didn't the admin buy any of the additional supplies that teach the materials in a hands-on way?

Why did the admin tell the teacher to stop tutoring that child since the child will never improve in time?

Why did the admin give the child a lollipop for being sent to the principal's office when a referral was requested?

Why did the admin put extra students in the teacher's classroom but keep them off the official role so it appears they are abiding by reduced classroom sizing?

Why did the admin tell the teachers not to send behavior problems to the office?

Why did the admin take away all the PE time so the kids never get any exercise, but then tell teacher to lie and say they were doing PE in order to meet state standards?

 

Dang, I can probably blame the bus driver, too.

 

Yes, teachers should be held accountable for their job performance, but standardized test scores are not the best way to do that. I understand it is frustrating when a GOOD parent has to deal with a LOUSY teacher. But please, please recognize that in many circumstances it is a GOOD teacher dealing with LOUSY parents or LOUSY administration or LOUSY unions or LOUSY state guidelines.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Daisy

[JillZ]

This simple statement isn't so simple. It is a shame if students aren't capable of passing the test.

 

Why didn't the parents read to them before they started school?

Why don't the parents help with homework?

Why don't the parents show up to sign off on the paperwork that would provide their child with extra tutoring?

Why don't the parents show up for meetings regarding their children's poor behavior?

Why do parents change their phone numbers so they don't have to be contacted?

Why can't the parents speak English?

Why can't the parents get the child a decent night's sleep or something more than a snickers bar for breakfast?

 

Frankly, it would be just as easy to blame the parents as to blame the teachers. Or look I can blame the administrators. Let's fire them...

 

Why didn't the admin provide the teacher with enough textbooks?

Why didn't the admin buy any of the additional supplies that teach the materials in a hands-on way?

Why did the admin tell the teacher to stop tutoring that child since the child will never improve in time?

Why did the admin give the child a lollipop for being sent to the principal's office when a referral was requested?

Why did the admin put extra students in the teacher's classroom but keep them off the official role so it appears they are abiding by reduced classroom sizing?

Why did the admin tell the teachers not to send behavior problems to the office?

Why did the admin take away all the PE time so the kids never get any exercise, but then tell teacher to lie and say they were doing PE in order to meet state standards?

 

Dang, I can probably blame the bus driver, too.

 

Yes, teachers should be held accountable for their job performance, but standardized test scores are not the best way to do that.

 

I agree with you completely :) I don't think there is any easy answer, and I don't think standardized tests are the best way to hold teachers accountable. But I still think they are useful and shouldn't be totally discounted. AND I agree that the administration should be held equally accountable for student success.

[Daisy]

I'm going to take it a step further.

 

When you are struggling to teach your child math, what do you do?

 

Do you immediately assume YOU are the problem? Or do you ask these questions....

 

Is it the curriculum?

Is it the schedule?

Is it the child's natural difficulty?

Is the child getting enough sleep?

Are they sick?

Is grandma's death causing them difficulty?

 

Don't you ask all those questions first?

 

Now sure, it may be that you stink at math and are not capable of being a good teacher, but most homeschooling parents are not likely to immediately assume that and would be offended if someone else did.

 

Now, what if you had no control over the curriculum, the schedule, the child's natural giftedness, the child's sleep, food, sickness, home life, etc. Would you appreciate all your friends assuming it was your own lousy ability to homeschool that caused that child to do poorly on the math section of the SAT9?

 

Bottom line, yes there are teachers who stink at math and can't teach, but is the SAT9 the way to determine if all teachers meet that criteria?

 

Would you like that criteria applied to you?

[Shelly in the Country]

Here's my 2 cents:

 

I do think there are some teachers who need to be fired (and kept from being rehired elsewhere). However, lately it seems to be less and less the teacher's fault. When the teacher is told exactly what to teach, how to teach it, and when to teach it, with no regard for the student's needs, the teacher should not be blamed. I hear about more and more teachers who are not really allowed to teach. They have no say in curriculum, pace, etc.

 

The teachers are doing exactly what they are told. It's not their fault that the higher-ups made bad choices.

 

:iagree: If you tie someone's hands and the students fail, you can't blame the person whose hands are tied, you have to blame the people who tied their hands.

[Orthodox6]

:iagree: If you tie someone's hands and the students fail, you can't blame the person whose hands are tied, you have to blame the people who tied their hands.

 

Pithy ! :iagree:

[Catherine]

The fact is, some teachers get outstanding results even with challenges. Then the question becomes, how outstanding does someone need to be?

 

There was recently a very interesting article in the NY Times Magazine that looked at a book about to be published about excellence in teaching. A teacher studied, using test scores, excellent teachers, and discovered that many of them had independently arrived at some very effective teaching strategies. He compiled them, with video, and is publishing them in a book and on his website. The book is called Teach Like a Champion, and his methods are referred to as "Lemov's Taxonomy". Google it if you're interested. I found it fascinating.

 

Reading about this, and investigating his site, I had the strong feeling that very well-intended and sincere people can still be poor teachers. Hence the perception of many that children can't be helped by a single teacher because of the mess the rest of their lives is. No, one teacher cannot alone counteract a huge negative loading of social problems. IMO, though, and I say this gently and with great respect for teachers and what they do, high schoolers are still there because they want to learn. A teacher's job is to figure out how to make this happen. Poor results should not be supported by "more of the same".

 

OTOH, I really do believe that teachers are often unsupported by their administrations and districts in doing what needs to be done to help students. A student's failure is not the teacher's fault, alone.

[SonshineLearner]

Hmmmm.... Well, then they should want a classroom full of my step-kids, because my girls would thrive and learn regardless or teachers. And... then I know plenty of kids... where the teachers would have to have the kids totally change their opinion of learning.

Being responsible for children is like being responsible for them eating. You can make it appetizing... but you can't make them eat... or learn. (You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em drink...)

[Daisy]

The fact is, some teachers get outstanding results even with challenges. Then the question becomes, how outstanding does someone need to be?

 

There was recently a very interesting article in the NY Times Magazine that looked at a book about to be published about excellence in teaching. A teacher studied, using test scores, excellent teachers, and discovered that many of them had independently arrived at some very effective teaching strategies. He compiled them, with video, and is publishing them in a book and on his website. The book is called Teach Like a Champion, and his methods are referred to as "Lemov's Taxonomy". Google it if you're interested. I found it fascinating.

 

Reading about this, and investigating his site, I had the strong feeling that very well-intended and sincere people can still be poor teachers. Hence the perception of many that children can't be helped by a single teacher because of the mess the rest of their lives is. No, one teacher cannot alone counteract a huge negative loading of social problems. IMO, though, and I say this gently and with great respect for teachers and what they do, high schoolers are still there because they want to learn. A teacher's job is to figure out how to make this happen. Poor results should not be supported by "more of the same".

 

OTOH, I really do believe that teachers are often unsupported by their administrations and districts in doing what needs to be done to help students. A student's failure is not the teacher's fault, alone.

 

I agree with you to a point. This many exceptional teachers don't exist and we are not really creating more. It takes a person of amazing skill and fortitude to figure out how to teach effectively within the confines of the system WITHOUT eventually becoming a hopeless cog in the machine.

 

They are out there. I consider my husband one such teacher, but we cannot continue as we have. A few exceptional teacher will only teach a few very lucky students. Changing the system would allow even average teachers the chance to make a difference in the lives of many children.

 

Honestly, I know only a few exceptional homeschool teachers. The rest are just normal average moms who are allowed the exceptional opportunity to use what works for their student. Imagine if we gave average teachers the same opportunity.

[Sunkirst]

NO Way!

 

I haven't read any of the other responses, and I'm sure that there are many perspectives, but IMO test results should never be given this much power.

 

Just last evening, my dh finally prevailed on me to order the CAT for our 6th grade son. He wants some sort of objective measure of ds's progress. I agree on principle, but I dread the results. Ds is dyslexic, and although his reading is at grade level (finally), it is still slow, and his spelling and writing are years behind.

 

Our discussion got a bit intense, and at one point dh asked if I wasn't just sheltering ds. I realized that my real fear was for myself. How would I be judged if my student's results were poor? I work and work to explain things to him, trying different methods, various techniques. I try to keep the atmosphere light, even when I'm feeling stressed (like when ds spells ducks three different ways in a single paragraph when the animal encyclopedia on his desk is opened to the "Ducks" page).

 

For the first 5 years of homeschooling I heard constant suggestions to put him in school where the experts could teach him to read. The message was clear - I had failed, now let the professionals try. When I finally checked with a professional she let me know that I was doing everything and more than he would get in school, and advised me to continue HS as ds would be branded "stupid" if he was in school.

 

I have digressed - it's a hot topic here.

 

I have met lousy teachers: some are bored, some can't use decent grammar, some don't really like kids too much. These teachers should be reviewed and then fired. But no teacher should be fired because they haven't measured up on one parameter, albeit an important one.

[Orthodox6]

Honestly, I know only a few exceptional homeschool teachers. The rest are just normal average moms who are allowed the exceptional opportunity to use what works for their student. Imagine if we gave average teachers the same opportunity.

 

I agree that probably most of us homeschool teachers are of average ability as teachers. It is impossible, though, to give "average teachers" in outside schools the same opportunities that we have. We tailor education to the individual child, often using different materials for different children within the same family because of our devotion to providing each child with what is best suited to him/her. We allow one child to progress rapidly, and another to slow down. This cannot be done in a classroom of 35+ students.

[JillZ]

I'm going to take it a step further.

 

When you are struggling to teach your child math, what do you do?

 

Do you immediately assume YOU are the problem? Or do you ask these questions....

 

Is it the curriculum?

Is it the schedule?

Is it the child's natural difficulty?

Is the child getting enough sleep?

Are they sick?

Is grandma's death causing them difficulty?

 

Don't you ask all those questions first?

 

I'm currently teaching a small science co-op class (I have one DS but he is only 2.5 now) and honestly, if one of the students isn't learning a concept, I DO assume that it's my teaching. Granted, I know my students are all capable of excelling, though it may require a lot of hard work on their part.

 

I know in many PS settings, there are so many extraneous circumstances that are out of the teachers control. I graduated from a failing PS system, and I have lots of sympathy for the teachers. I absolutely do not think it is the teacher's fault for students failing (unless the teacher is genuinely one of the bad teachers, which do exist).

 

The thing I wonder about, though, is what can be done to solve the problem. Are there really teachers out there who could somehow reach the students, in spite of miserable circumstances, and inspire them to excel? Is it worth looking for these teachers? I don't know the answer to this, and it may be the answer is "no" to both questions. Although I really hope not.

 

For what it's worth, I admire teachers of all kinds, especially PS teachers. I really wish that they could be treated and respected as professionals.

[Impish]

Here's my 2 cents:

 

I do think there are some teachers who need to be fired (and kept from being rehired elsewhere). However, lately it seems to be less and less the teacher's fault. When the teacher is told exactly what to teach, how to teach it, and when to teach it, with no regard for the student's needs, the teacher should not be blamed. I hear about more and more teachers who are not really allowed to teach. They have no say in curriculum, pace, etc.

 

The teachers are doing exactly what they are told. It's not their fault that the higher-ups made bad choices.

:iagree: So many of these teachers have not only their hands tied, but an anchor chained to their ankles to boot!

 

A child who is ill rested, ill fed cannot learn. Period. A child whose life is a series of violence and neglect, who hears gunshots at night, is afraid to be outside...these children are ill equipped to learn. They're emotionally drained.

 

And then there's the not extreme cases...the ones that disrespect authority, whose parents have NMKS (Not *My* Kid! Syndrome) who will throw fits to the nth degree because Precious was kept in at recess or given a detention.

 

Between the school boards, administration, and parents (not all, but enough...how many disruptive children does one class need to make learning all but impossible for the others?) its frankly a bit of a miracle that students learn in a classroom setting at all.

[Daisy]

I agree that probably most of us homeschool teachers are of average ability as teachers. It is impossible, though, to give "average teachers" in outside schools the same opportunities that we have. We tailor education to the individual child, often using different materials for different children within the same family because of our devotion to providing each child with what is best suited to him/her. We allow one child to progress rapidly, and another to slow down. This cannot be done in a classroom of 35+ students.

 

I agree. That's why firing teacher for being unable to keep all the students at a certain percentage on the state exams is crazy.

[Melissa in FL]

I don't know what the answer is. I hate to add more importance to testing, I think some teachers already spend all their time teaching to the test. But we have to have a way to get rid of bad teachers.

 

We homeschool thanks to a bad teacher. The district put the teacher in the K class because they felt she could do less damage there and they couldn't fire her because of tenure. Everyone at that school knew she was incompetent. I didn't find any of that out until after my son was put in her class. Families with older kids already in the school knew to get their kindergartners in the other teachers class, we were clueless. This teacher was so bad my sons reading level actually went backwards, he stopped learning anything until we pulled him out. He became a discipline problem that the teacher solved by sending him to the office. This is a kid who started the year reading at a 2nd grade level and was doing multiplication and division. I was told by her not to worry, he was all ready for 1st grade. Meanwhile I was getting calls from the principal to pick him up! Yep thanks to that one bad teacher that everyone knew about but couldn't do anything about, we've been homeschooling for the last 8 years.

 

I don't think testing alone is the answer, but we must find one. If for no other reason than for those kids whose parents can't just pull them out. We are dealing with this issue here in FL this week. Yesterday teachers across the state were protesting on the sidewalks against a bill in our state house. I listened to the radio talk about them and I kept hearing the radio people and those calling in talk about the need to "do what's right for the teachers". IMHO they have it wrong. We don't provide public education for the teachers. We provide it for the children. We need to do what's right for the students even if that means firing teachers that don't preform. I just don't have the answer to judge which teachers are doing their best with the students they have from those that just can't teach no matter how much money we throw at them.

Melissa

[Daisy]

The thing I wonder about, though, is what can be done to solve the problem. Are there really teachers out there who could somehow reach the students, in spite of miserable circumstances, and inspire them to excel? Is it worth looking for these teachers?

 

Absolutely. It is worth looking for these teachers.

[OnTheBrink]

I think the teachers who fall asleep in class need to be immediately dismissed. Yes, I've seen it. An elementary teacher in a district we used to live in would fall asleep at her desk while the students did their "seat work". She wasn't fired; she had tenure.

 

I think teachers who scream at their classes "Y'all are acting like a buncha RETARDS!" should be immediately dismissed. But, she's still there; she has tenure.

 

I think teachers who physically grab their students and angrily jerk them into their seats should be immediately dismissed. Still teaching--has tenure.

 

All three were completely backed up and supported by their principals. I think tenure needs to be abolished. Why in the world should incompetent employees be protected? On the flip side, why should good teachers be held accountable for students' failure, especially in areas where kids are dealing with broken families, drugs, gangs, poverty, insecurity, hunger, etc? School is just one aspect of these kids' lives. If you smoke for 30 years, develop lung cancer, go to the best oncologist in the history of man and still die, is it the fault of the oncologist? No, so why should a teacher be held accountable for a child's academic difficulties when in so many cases, there are variables that the teacher may not even know about, or have any control over? Its backwards. Start holding parents responsible and at the same time, stop giving teachers the power to parent. It's like a big, convoluted ball of yarn.

 

Teachers should just teach.

Parents should just parent.

 

I think too much power is given to teachers, and it's power they aren't entitled to or need to have. If teachers' unions want the right to parent children, they also take on the responsibility to see it through. You can't have it both ways. You can't cut the parent out, make them powerless in their child's education, then turn around and blame the parent. It just can't work. And it doesn't. You can't take total control of the child's education when you have 20-40 kids in a classroom and expect all or most of the students to learn to their full ability. I'm not saying teachers are malevolent; I'm saying the system is a disaster.

 

In my perfect world ;) every student would have an academic plan, created by the teacher, approved by the parents. Make both parties equally responsible. Provide resources for learning or behavioral problems. Have resources available for any other issues that affect the child's life. I don't mean the school should PROVIDE this support or even know details of the child's home life, but have a list of resources available for support if a parent has lost a job, is experiencing a catastrophic illness, whatever, so that the life issues that crop up can be dealt with. These resources could be a list of links on the school's website, for example. Brochures in the hallway. PSA's on TV. What I mean is, take away the responsibility of the schools to deal with issues that affect the child's life outside of academics. I don't think it's wrong to have a counselor or social worker available to guide families to external resources, but I don't think the schools need to be immersed in teaching morals, values, etc. to students. That's up to the parents to decide.

 

Anyway, have both parties 100% on-board with the plan and implementation to ensure the child is successful. Document along the way things like homework being done, assignments handed in on time, etc. That way a teacher has proof that they did their part, and teachers who DO their part are protected. Parents who don't do their part don't have a leg to stand on in blaming the teacher. If parents fail in keeping their end of the bargain, they get to deal with the fallout. Teachers who don't do their part risk losing their job.

 

There. My plan for educational reform. :D

[Daisy]

We need to do what's right for the students even if that means firing teachers that don't preform.

Melissa

 

:iagree: I totally agree. I just think the measure of a teacher's ability should be more than just a standardized test. Other ideas...

 

1. Peer review.

2. Assessment by parents at the end of the school year (assess school, principal, teachers, aides, whoever)

3. Measured growth of students (not based on standardized tests but on the individual child's progress. This is doable. My husband does it every year).

4. Observation of teacher actually teaching.

5. Support for teachers who are struggling with particular subjects or with classroom management (this is the biggest problem for new teachers).

 

Can we think of other ways? And I'm all for firing lousy teachers. It would sure make my husband's job easier if every kindergarten teacher sent him a first grader who had actually learned something.

[Storm Bay]

This is a tough questions. I'm another one who thinks bad teachers ought to be fired, but that test scores are not enough to judge that. I had some terrible teachers who managed to get dc to make good grades. They were bad for other reasons (rude, sarcastic, etc).

 

There is so much more involved than just the teacher. Curricula, methods of teaching the teachers are forced to use, home, diet, environment, etc. On one hand, teacher's unions can be very strong and cause trouble with removing bad teachers, so it makes it hard without a written policy. On the other hand, it's not so simple to define a teacher good or bad simply based on how kids perform. Although this is not exactly the same thing, as a piano teacher I can say that most of my students don't perform as well as they could because they don't practice regularly. Should I be labelled a bad teacher because many parents either don't make their dc practice or don't understand what good practicing is? And I'm dealing with parents who tend to feed their children well and live in middle or upper class neighbourhoods. On the other hand, you can't judge me by my most talented students, either, at least not completely. My eldest learns by reading books and hardly even needs a teacher for academics, so any great scores she had when she was in ps didn't necessarily reflect her teachers' abilities.

[JillZ]

Anyway, have both parties 100% on-board with the plan and implementation to ensure the child is successful. Document along the way things like homework being done, assignments handed in on time, etc. That way a teacher has proof that they did their part, and teachers who DO their part are protected. Parents who don't do their part don't have a leg to stand on in blaming the teacher. If parents fail in keeping their end of the bargain, they get to deal with the fallout. Teachers who don't do their part risk losing their job.

 

There. My plan for educational reform. :D

 

Sounds like an awesome idea! I know of a couple of charter schools who have an approach similar to this, and they are EXCELLING. Even with the students being drawn randomly from the traditional PS student population.

[Lara in Colo]

As a parent who recently pulled her child from a brick and mortar to a cyber school, and will pull from the cyber school next year I sort of have a different persective. We have a good school district with some of the toughest graduating standards in the state (in fact they are loosening those standards to save money by allowing Sr's to graduate with the state req's now). We had some great teachers and some yucky teachers. We had one teacher who had been teaching for a long time and you could see in her eyes and attitude that she was beat. When we went on a field trip and all she did was try and keep the special needs child from running wild, dominating every conversation, picking his nose in front of the librarian, and asking the policeman 50 times about what the k-9 dog's favorite food was---you could see how her day in the classromm was h*ll. I felt for her, but MY child was unhappy in the classroom and not doing as well. The 3rdgrade teacher was new, (not young-she went back to school when hers started), that year was as waste for DD. LOTS of parties and not much structure, every time I visited the class it was chaos (sp?). These are teachers that need monitoring (they need help).

In cyber school I find thay we are doing better, the school is looser in the manner that we can turn in assignments and I can really help out. They school still teaches to the test however and is still tied to whatever is the "regulations".

 

Here are the things I have learned:

There is a complete lack of comunication b't parents and teachers with regard to curric. How can I help my child with homework when I don't ever see what is going on? I get 10 pages of math a week, but don't know how to help my child do it, because I didn't learn whatever method you are teaching and my child thinks I'm stupid and we are all in tears.

 

Teachers need to be monitored: problems in most classrooms can probably be solved if people would just look inside the room, (have an older teacher show the new guy some methods on crowd control, SEE that the older teacher is overworked with 2 special needs children and cannot teach when she is spending all her energy controling 2 trouble makers) This is not against special needs child integration, just seeing something that isn't working and needs to change (perhaps give the teacher an aid, maybe rotate the child to another teacher for while)

 

Stop teaching to the test---this is stupid, yes we need some way to find if learniing happening -this way isn't really working. It's sort of like having Dr's learn to the test and they don't know the rest (so they can't dx anything NOT on the test) Perhaps we should take yr grades away alltogether. Only have children be at their level in each subject, no more 1st grade, 2nd grade etc...

 

As to perental involvement- this is hard, on many levels, there are those who push too hard (ie-over progam the child in 75 activities) and those who are not involved at all-either eay is hard on learning. Why is school the way it is? Why not year round? Why does it get out at 3:00 and not 5:00? The current structure is so that children could help with the crops, get home in time to milk the cow. Now parents have to pay someone to watch the child all summer (causing them to work more to afford this-thus no energy for homework). Keep the child until 5:00, work slower, more individualized, not have homework. School year round, with lots of breaks (we are going the 3/1 week), then there is no loss of info and need for a review every new year (what a waste).

 

Lara

[Mejane]

You know, I might have answered "yes" a few months ago, but listening to my daughter describe the kids in her cc general science class has softened me toward teachers. It's college, but I think it applies here.

 

Most of the fifteen kids (actually young adults) in the class are failing. It is not a difficult class from what I can see from the text being used and the tests I've seen. The teacher bends over backward to help, actually allowing kids to retake the tests if they don't do well. She made herself available over spring break, begging kids to seek tutoring if they needed it. No one took advantage of it. They admit they don't study, don't do the reading or homework, nor do they always show up for class. When they are there, they never answer questions or engage in discussion.

 

My daughter (averaging a 95 in the class) feels sorry for the teacher. She said she actually looks like she wants to cry sometimes. I can't imagine what else this poor woman could do to help these "kids" pass. :glare:

[mom31257]

Thanks for all the comments. It's an interesting discussion. I do believe there are bad teachers, and they should be fired. Our state does not have tenure, so I don't see why there is a need to implement further restrictions. Teachers are given contracts on a year by year basis. The school systems already have a way to get rid of the bad ones.

 

Administrators ought to be spending enough time in the classroom to know who is and who is not a bad teacher. Actually, I think they ought to have to teach for periods of time every couple of years in order to stay in touch with what is happening in the classrooms.

 

My dh has not seen what types of assessments will be used, but based on everything else, he believes it will be testing. As far as documenting each students' progress himself, he is so burdened down with paperwork now that it might be difficult. He has more and more students each year with IEP's. Because the test scores are low, there has been an abundance of documentation added to the normal teacher's list. They even gave the teacher's confidential student information, that they are not supposed to see, for some detailed paperwork about income levels, free lunches, and such.

 

My dh teaches social studies. The school does not issue a textbook to the kids, but they do have access to a classroom set. The administration wants the teachers to get away from lecturing, using the textbook, or using worksheets. They want the kids doing everything in groups with graphic organizers and such. I think those methods are fine for some of the time, but then they turn around and test them in a manner that works better with the "old" methods of teaching.

 

They are happier with students drawing a cartoon of an event in Ancient Rome, than actually reading very much about Ancient Rome. He figures if he can't lecture or give them something to read, they must want him to give them the information through mental telepathy. LOL! If anyone has found a way to do this, please, please let me know. My husband's job may depend on it.

[athena1277]

:iagree: I totally agree. I just think the measure of a teacher's ability should be more than just a standardized test. Other ideas...

 

1. Peer review.

2. Assessment by parents at the end of the school year (assess school, principal, teachers, aides, whoever)

3. Measured growth of students (not based on standardized tests but on the individual child's progress. This is doable. My husband does it every year).

4. Observation of teacher actually teaching.

5. Support for teachers who are struggling with particular subjects or with classroom management (this is the biggest problem for new teachers).

 

Can we think of other ways? And I'm all for firing lousy teachers. It would sure make my husband's job easier if every kindergarten teacher sent him a first grader who had actually learned something.

 

I was thinking of something along these lines, too. More of a portfolio type assessment, showing a variety of things, instead of just one test.

 

I hope this next statement doesn't get me in trouble, but here goes. I wonder if it would help any to go back to the old system in which a student can fail? I don't mean just tests, but not go on to the next grade and/or not graduate. Why are students being given a degree who never learned the material? Would it change (at least some) parent's attitude towords school/teachers if their kid failed? I'm thinking especially of the students who do not try and whose parents do not care.

[MomLovesClassics]

Others have said what I am thinking so I will just add no firing teachers is not the solution. I think it is sad they are choosing to throw money at the problem, money is not the answer. I can understand why kids are failing and it has nothing to do with teachers. Everytime you turn around there are new regulations that restrict teachers and students from soaring.

[Impish]

I think taking 'failing' out of the public school system is a big part of the problem...right up there with taking 'succeeding' out. You know, the idea that everyone is equal, that nobody is special cause everyone is? :ack2:

[ocelotmom]

I think teachers whose students don't progress adequately should be intervened on. Firing without an attempt at fixing the situation doesn't seem like a good idea, but neither does the same teacher consistently turning out inadequately prepared students for years on end. However, I think that this is a decision that needs to be made in context, not based solely on results on standardized tests.

 

What level did the kids start at? If they started out three years behind, and ended up one year behind, that's a huge amount of progress, even if they aren't up to "standards".

 

Are students entering the class adequately prepared? Does their level of functioning on early assignments and pre-tests indicate that they're ready for the course content?

 

If more than one teacher is teaching the subject (at the same level), are students from one teacher consistently making inadequate progress or having trouble in subsequent classes?

 

Are students making adequate progress up until they have a specific teacher, and then struggling after that? Can the type of problems the students are having be easily traced back to a deficiency in teaching at an earlier level, or is the problem obviously new?

 

How does student performance in one subject compare to other subjects? Obviously, this is a little like apples and oranges, but if you're dealing with lazy students or home or personal problems, there's likely to be a trend of inadequate progress across the board.

 

How does student performance in the class compare to their performance on standardized tests, especially as compared to previous years in the same subject?

 

How are the teacher's lesson plans? What's going on in the classroom when people drop in? What do student and parent evaluations say (with the understanding, of course, that students may be negative about teachers who expect a lot, and positive about those they perceive as easy or who let them get away with things)?

 

Are people reporting specific problems with a specific teacher?

 

That sort of thing.

 

I don't particularly agree with financial incentives for schools that perform better, as better performing schools tend to be those with more resources to begin with.

 

(I was overjoyed when I learned that my Algebra II teacher had been transferred to administrative duties due to poor results from students in his class. I'd spent several years before that thinking I was just lazy/dumb for having so much trouble.)

[msjones]

I'm going to take it a step further.

 

When you are struggling to teach your child math, what do you do?

 

Do you immediately assume YOU are the problem? Or do you ask these questions....

 

Is it the curriculum?

Is it the schedule?

Is it the child's natural difficulty?

Is the child getting enough sleep?

Are they sick?

Is grandma's death causing them difficulty?

 

Don't you ask all those questions first?

 

Now sure, it may be that you stink at math and are not capable of being a good teacher, but most homeschooling parents are not likely to immediately assume that and would be offended if someone else did.

 

Now, what if you had no control over the curriculum, the schedule, the child's natural giftedness, the child's sleep, food, sickness, home life, etc. Would you appreciate all your friends assuming it was your own lousy ability to homeschool that caused that child to do poorly on the math section of the SAT9?

 

Bottom line, yes there are teachers who stink at math and can't teach, but is the SAT9 the way to determine if all teachers meet that criteria?

 

Would you like that criteria applied to you?

 

Preach it, sister! I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Photo Ninja]

One problem with holding teachers responsible for student progress is the evaluation method. It seems that the primary evaluation method is looking at a standardized test to see if the students reach benchmarks. This is not realistic. It may not be the 4th grade teacher's fault that the student entered the class reading at a 1st grade level. Why punish the teacher for that? What if a student entered 4th grade reading on a 1st grade level, and at the end of the year the student is reading at a 3rd grade level? The teacher has obviously taught and the student has learned, but the standardized test will reveal that the student is not at the required level and the ranking for the teacher and school will be low. The teacher should be commended for the student's improvement, not punished for it. A more realistic evaluation method would be to evaluate a student's skill level at the beginning of the school year and then again at the end and see if there has been improvement, but that would probably be cost prohibitive and would still not take into account students who don't want to learn and who refuse to learn. An excellent teacher can not teach a student who refuses to learn or one who is mainstreamed into the class, but who can not read or do math because of mental or developmental issues, but who is still being tested and expected to achieve benchmarks. The teacher can not change those things and should not be evaluated based on it.

 

A teacher should be evaluated only on what he is able to control. If a teacher must be evaluated based on students' test scores, (and I don't want this!) then the teacher should be allowed to teach any way he/she wants, using the curriculum or style he wants to use instead of being forced to use the curriculum the school chooses. There are teachers who complain that they are forced to teach by reading from scripts included in the curriculum for specific numbers of minutes per subject. They are not allowed to deviate or to teach anything else, even though they know the students are not learning from it. The teacher should be able to remove students from the classroom for disruptive behavior that stops other students from learning. Let teachers teach. If the school is tying the teachers' hands, then don't expect them to achieve. Let's let teachers teach.

[Storm Bay]

Thanks for all the comments. It's an interesting discussion.

 

He figures if he can't lecture or give them something to read, they must want him to give them the information through mental telepathy. LOL! If anyone has found a way to do this, please, please let me know. My husband's job may depend on it.

 

 

I cut this short to save space, but this is a great post. It shows what's really happening. I agree that those administrators ought to spend more time in the classroom. It makes no sense to have them making decisions when they're not even in there watching and/or teaching.

 

I also thought the post about the cc class was highly enlightening. Part of the problem in colleges is that everyone is expected to go to some kind of a college now (high schools aren't doing their jobs) and not everyone who goes is there because they want to be.

[ConnieB]

if students do not progress? I have to say I'm venting a little here and would like other people's opinions to see if I'm way off base.

 

My dh teaches in a public high school that has low tests scores for years. This is his 4th year there, after 16 years in private education. The high school has received a $6 million grant to be used over the next 3 years. There are a lot of strings attached, one of which is firing teachers whose kids do not show progress.

 

My dh has 150 students a day for about 55 minutes each. He has no control over the other 23 hours of those kids lives. How can his job depend on if they improve or not? Are they going to fire all the teachers these kids had before my dh? Better yet, are they going to fire the parents who aren't making them study, go to bed at a decent time, eat well, or encouraging them to want an education? Don't all those things play a part in them progressing? What if kids know this information and sabotage tests of the teachers they don't like?

 

My dh does care about his kids. He wants them to learn, but he cannot make them want to learn. He says that if you have kids who want to learn, even with a mediocre teacher, they will learn something. BTW, he is not a mediocre teacher.

 

He had really good evaluations this year. They have designated certain teachers to get new technology for their classrooms and training. He is one of them. Supposedly this is to reward those teachers who are already checking a lot of technology out and using it. I think with $6 million there should be enough for all the teachers, but that's another discussion!

 

Is it wrong for me to feel this way? Should his job be dependent on kids' tests results?

 

This has always sounded to me like rehashed "no child left behind" only now they're laying the blame on the teachers....which will only result in them "teaching to the test" even more so.

 

I totally agree with you that teachers can't be held responsible for a child's lack of desire to learn.

 

Frankly, I think the first teacher to be fired under this will probably not make it off the school property before a dozen lawyers will be offering to defend them. And rightly so. I would suggest that with that probablity in mind that your husband (and all public teachers) keep very very good lesson plans, copies of students work, maybe even a daily diary of what students slept through class, texted, gazed out the window or giggled with friends. And start keeping track in that same diary of all the extraordinary things the teacher did to keep the kids interested and encourage them to WANT to learn. A major part of the defense is going to be to prove that the teacher did everything possible to teach the kids and placing the blame right back on the shoulders of the students, who are the ONLY ones who can improve and only if they choose.

 

I'd like to see some of the administrators let go.....and replaced by counselors who CARE about the kids and will do more than be the bearer of bad news and threaten the kids. I remember both my high school counselors, they were pretty close to being friends (but of course no student will admit to friendships with teachers, lol). They spent a lot of time at lunch and breaks out and about talking to kids, taking an interest in them....and it wasn't unusal to be called out of class into their office if they'd heard a rumor that you were having a really bad day. It wasn't to solve the problem, but to let you know that they knew about it, and wanted to help if you wanted their help...and LOTS of us took them up.

[Storm Bay]

I would suggest that with that probablity in mind that your husband (and all public teachers) keep very very good lesson plans, copies of students work, maybe even a daily diary of what students slept through class, texted, gazed out the window or giggled with friends. And start keeping track in that same diary of all the extraordinary things the teacher did to keep the kids interested and encourage them to WANT to learn. A major part of the defense is going to be to prove that the teacher did everything possible to teach the kids and placing the blame right back on the shoulders of the students, who are the ONLY ones who can improve and only if they choose.

 

QUOTE]

 

 

Good suggestion. Add to that log how many kids are texting on their cell phones in class!

[hsbeth]

Also married to a public high school teacher in GA. I understand that many teachers will not actually be fired, but will actually be shuffled. IOW, you must let go 50% of teachers at each school, but you may place them at another school in your district. I'm not sure what the point of all of that is.

 

In answer to your original question, no, I do not think that teachers should be judged solely on their students test results/scores. According to my husband the vast majority of students in his classrooms that fail, do so due to lack of attendance. He compiled an astounding statistic a couple of years back... more than 70% of his failures missed more than 33% of his classes. Yes, his district does not do a good job of enforcing their attendance policy.

 

I think that student performance is closely linked to the courses being taught. My husband's chemistry students that are on the college track do much better than his physical science students for instance. Next year he is slated to teach physics, so his stats will likely be even better. I think that it would be more fair to evaluate teachers based on comparables, looking at performace of similiar students in the same course from the year before or taught by a different instructor. Making broad based or even department based comparisons doesn't make sense (IE Mr. X' has a higher failure rate than Mr. Y).

if students do not progress? I have to say I'm venting a little here and would like other people's opinions to see if I'm way off base.

 

My dh teaches in a public high school that has low tests scores for years. This is his 4th year there, after 16 years in private education. The high school has received a $6 million grant to be used over the next 3 years. There are a lot of strings attached, one of which is firing teachers whose kids do not show progress.

 

My dh has 150 students a day for about 55 minutes each. He has no control over the other 23 hours of those kids lives. How can his job depend on if they improve or not? Are they going to fire all the teachers these kids had before my dh? Better yet, are they going to fire the parents who aren't making them study, go to bed at a decent time, eat well, or encouraging them to want an education? Don't all those things play a part in them progressing? What if kids know this information and sabotage tests of the teachers they don't like?

 

My dh does care about his kids. He wants them to learn, but he cannot make them want to learn. He says that if you have kids who want to learn, even with a mediocre teacher, they will learn something. BTW, he is not a mediocre teacher.

 

He had really good evaluations this year. They have designated certain teachers to get new technology for their classrooms and training. He is one of them. Supposedly this is to reward those teachers who are already checking a lot of technology out and using it. I think with $6 million there should be enough for all the teachers, but that's another discussion!

 

Is it wrong for me to feel this way? Should his job be dependent on kids' tests results?

[ConnieB]

I would suggest that with that probablity in mind that your husband (and all public teachers) keep very very good lesson plans, copies of students work, maybe even a daily diary of what students slept through class, texted, gazed out the window or giggled with friends. And start keeping track in that same diary of all the extraordinary things the teacher did to keep the kids interested and encourage them to WANT to learn. A major part of the defense is going to be to prove that the teacher did everything possible to teach the kids and placing the blame right back on the shoulders of the students, who are the ONLY ones who can improve and only if they choose.

 

QUOTE]

 

 

Good suggestion. Add to that log how many kids are texting on their cell phones in class!

 

 

Hee hee, I did suggest that.....now put down your mouse and pay attention. :lol::grouphug:

[ConnieB]

Also married to a public high school teacher in GA. I understand that many teachers will not actually be fired, but will actually be shuffled. IOW, you must let go 50% of teachers at each school, but you may place them at another school in your district. I'm not sure what the point of all of that is.

 

 

 

I hadn't thought that far ahead....but you're right.....if they truly fire teachers for failing student grades, than half the schools would likely be closed down for lack of teachers, lol.

 

If they really want to see who the good teachers are and who the bad ones are, then maybe those overpaid school board folks ought to "drop in" and monitor a class at random. Even though I'm a very strong advocate for homeschooling for MY family, I'm not a teacher basher. I know some really great teachers....and I know some mediocre teachers. I hung out in a teacher friend's class once....and it really was awful! She was very disorganized, didn't have copies made for the lesson (so I had to run down and make them for her since she couldn't leave the class alone....always wondered what does she do if no other adult is there, but I digress), she didn't have enough stuff planned for the class period, so the kids finished early and then had "free time" to do whatever they wanted, including talking on their phones and being very noisy...felt sorry for the class next door. And she actually thought the class had gone well because she didn't give anyone detention! Love her, hate her as a teacher...and yeah, she should be let go.

 

But I also know many wonderful teachers who are well prepared, have extra ideas at the ready in case class goes quicker than expected, and really draws out the students, not just the eager ones with their hands up, but knows their students strengths and weaknesses and works to push them to excel. And yet, several of them are now "subs" because layoffs hit them....usually because of senority. THEY should be in the classroom and the inadequate ones, like my friend, should be the subs.

 

But...until the powers that be decide to actually rate each teacher on his or her merits instead of the easy-way-out system they have now, we will continue to have lousy teachers in the classroom and great teachers substituting or having moved into other fields because of the poor pay, lack of job security, etc. Evaluations need to be done by someone other than principals who have forged friendships with the teachers or are too close to see reality.

 

Preaching to the choir here, since many homeschoolers took their students out of school because of the poor classroom experience.

 

Those of you who teach in the classrooms (or are married to teachers), my heart goes out to you for all the turmoil you are in for the foreseeable future. But I also thank you for your service to the students whose parents weren't able or willing to homeschool, lol. Keep up the good work, those are my childrens' future employees you're training, lol.