Why would a parent tell their child that college doesn't matter?

[lovemyboys]

This quote urged me to ask a question:

When did Algebra become a higher level math?? Isn't it basically solving for an unknown?? I realize many people have trouble with it and I also realize that there are several levels of difficulty, however--IME it comes down to the teaching method not fitting the student. I use Algebra when I'm out shopping- carpenters use Algebra & geo. thus Trig to build, given the current economic situation it would appear categorizing this in this way might be the problem!?!. Okay I feel better-

 

It really bugs me when I hear this mom wax eloquent about homeschooling when she's got 4 dc over the age of 10 and she's just decided not to bother with some of these very basic tools that her dc Will Need in one way or another. How many 12 yo's really do know what they'll be at age 30 and therefore what subjects they need to study in middle school? Seems to me that's our job to prepare for them for that very unknown future!

jmho;)

[Mrs Mungo]

:iagree:

btw - has this discussion devolved into a discussion of the worth of education? Did I login into the wrong board this morning? Do we really have to defend why we value education?

 

I don't think there is anyone here who doesn't value education. If you homeschool your children throughout high school they will not receive a high school degree from a government-approved school. This doesn't mean they aren't educated. I don't see *anyone* saying that college should be discouraged or pooh-poohed. I see people saying a) there are other way to attain success (however you define it) and b) not all educated people have degrees and vice versa. Yes, I agree that a college degree is the status quo but for that very reason-does it need defending?

[GothicGyrl]

:iagree:

btw - has this discussion devolved into a discussion of the worth of education? Did I login into the wrong board this morning? Do we really have to defend why we value education?

No I believe the discussion evolved into "why wouldn't a homeschooler be prepping their kids for college" as if to say "all homeschoolers should be" or as I've said I've heard before "there is no reason for a homeschooler to have less than a 4.0 GPA"

 

All of which are faulty arguments. Not all homeschoolers have 4.0 GPA's (nor should they) and not all homeschoolers should be following some unwritten "must prep for college" law. No one is asking anyone to defend why you value education because that isn't the discussion; but it is obvious that some feel others are less valued for not having a college education--so that part of it has come up in the discussion as "defense".

 

I feel as though I am being told I have to "keep up appearances" as a homeschooler, that we are homeschooling because we feel we give a better education to our children than the PS does, so why wouldn't anyone want "better". And what I and some others are trying to say is that College does not always equal better nor should it. That there are other admirable and sometimes better paying jobs out there than ones that were preceeded by some type of college education.

 

And I stand by what I said: telling your child that college is the only option is wrong. I don't care if you start from birth talking college to your kid, some kids just cannot do college and to force them to do so because you feel anything else other than college is "not an option", is doing more of a disservice to your children than you think.

 

I have one kid who is just not college material--I know this. I see this. Have I come flat out and said "you aren't college material"? No. But I recognize that this is the case with her and I will NOT force her in to college just because some feel "it's the only way". Her father and I have had mean discussions about this and I have yet to back down. I refuse to force her to do something I know full well she is not "minded" to do--at least right now. When the time comes for her to be "minded" to do it, she will be able to handle it, but right now is not that time and I'm not going to stress her out trying to focus on this perceived "education" she could be getting when I am doing my best just to make sure *I* educate her enough to graduate.

 

Now my youngest is a different story and exactly why she will be attending public high school. But my oldest--no. And I take umbrage to anyone who lays claim to the "no college education = you are uneducated" banter.

[lovemyboys]

:iagree:

btw - has this discussion devolved into a discussion of the worth of education? Did I login into the wrong board this morning? Do we really have to defend why we value education?

 

It seems like the classical education choice would be by definition more rigorous. So this board really wouldn't have this as an issue, right?!!

 

Regardless of the style of homeschooling a family chooses though, all the best guides strongly recommend setting goals, working toward them, and reevaluating as the years go by. But I'm still amazed when I run into families who are making the huge commitment to homeschool and then not really doing much for the older kids who will soon be out on their own.:001_huh:

 

BTW, Karen, I liked your earlier post in reply to Pam.

[PrairieAir]

I don't believe college is the best choice for everyone. I've seen kids go to college with no real desire to be there and no real goal that college will help them to accomplish. They go simply because they are supposed to. That's a waste of time and money, IMO. I would never tell anyone that college "doesn't matter", though. I just think it's important for a person to define their goals and reasons for wanting or not wanting to go to college before making that choice. I also think schooling usually should be done with an eye toward preparing kids for college so that if they do decide to go they will be ready. Of course I think school, and homeschool in particular, should also prepare a child for other aspects of life or life paths.

[Kelli in TN]

Don't let yourself boohoo over choices you've made. .......

#2- plenty of women go to college for the first time at 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, & sometimes just for something to do (their 'mothering' the family job is over), I didn't check your age but I'm guessing there will be plenty of time for college once the youngest is out the door.

 

 

 

Well, I am not exactly boohooing, that is just not my nature.

 

I am almost 43. What limited money there is for educational opportunities is used for our children, as it should be. What time there is in each day is also used for the care and education of our children. My youngest is 8 but will likely be under my care for longer than most kids (he is pretty seriously learning challenged and will take longer to be at a place of independence).

 

My life is as it is and I am not looking to change the here and now or the future. I love motherhood, I look with excitement towards grandmothering.

 

But I deeply regret wasted youth and that is why it is important to me that my kids are warned strongly against squandering those years.

[Kelli in TN]

Until I marred a man from a background different than my own, I would never have considered that NOT attending university could be a good choice. Doran

 

 

Doran,

Explain yourself, Woman!! What did you do to this poor man?

 

 

:lol:

[Doran]

Doran,

Explain yourself, Woman!! What did you do to this poor man?

 

 

:lol:

 

 

 

I'm sure he could give you a load of examples! I've probably damaged him in ways I would never imagine, not the least of which is mentally! I did kind of snatch him from the bachelor pool. Poor guy thought he'd never marry, not for lack of interested females, but for lack of interest in Commitment on his part. He never knew what hit him!

 

 

 

Doran

 

 

 

P.S. You know, I actually had to read that quote THREE times to figure out what I'd done wrong. They just don't make editors like they used to. :D

[Jill- OK]

...if this includes the possibility that they don't marry?

 

I have a close friend that still is not married, at 37. Not because she doesn't want to be...it's just not played out that way. She has a great career, that she might set aside when/if the time comes to raise a family, but...it might not ever happen. If that's the case, she still has made a difference in the world, and has enjoyed life. (Her career does involve a college degree, btw).

 

Or do you not believe in women working outside the home, even if they aren't married? (Just curious).

[HomeOnTheRanch]

We are raising our girls to be intelligent, productive, keepers of the home.

 

That's what I am, but my 4-year college degree had a lot to with that. Not a particular course, but the whole experience. If I hadn't left home and went to college 2,500 miles away, I probably would never had met DH. Sure, there were plenty guys back home I could have been hitched to, but I'm glad it worked out the way it did.

 

I think my college experience can help me better prepare my sons & daughter for college if that's the route they wish to go. I did have a full scholarship (and I'm encouraging my kids to do the same :lol:) so I was fortunate enough to not experience the financial strain.

 

My mom didn't go to college, but she wishes she had a degree. She started working outside the home after we were all in school, and she's been passed by for many promotions just for a lack of a degree.

 

Just because you and your husband feel that your daughters shouldn't work outside of the home doesn't necessarily mean that is the way it will work out for them.

[pixelroper]

Kelli in TN, I didn't mean that as it sounded, just that I wouldn't let it bother you, which I thought was what you were saying.

 

As far as my own future, except for goals-- I'm not of the mind to be so final about anything. Just trying to throw out a perspective. Peace be with you:)

 

I do not own a 'crystal ball' and if I did -I wouldn't want to use it and spoil all the fun!!:D

 

Marriage? Well my father was mad I didn't marry right away, but as he couldn't pull a suitable mate out of thin air--oh well. dd can do as she likes, I would like her to be happy and if that meant she never married, so be it:)

 

didn't read thoroughly enough to find out where the marriage thing came from?>? no quotes,

[KristineIN]

...if this includes the possibility that they don't marry?

 

I have a close friend that still is not married, at 37. Not because she doesn't want to be...it's just not played out that way. She has a great career, that she might set aside when/if the time comes to raise a family, but...it might not ever happen. If that's the case, she still has made a difference in the world, and has enjoyed life. (Her career does involve a college degree, btw).

 

Or do you not believe in women working outside the home, even if they aren't married? (Just curious).

 

 

I think all young women should have the goal of something besides just getting married. I know several homeschool graduates that still live at home and are in their early 20-24 and aren't really doing anything to further their education or even working, it's almost as if they are just waiting to get married. I don't like that, I will encourage our daughter by getting her involved in a community college when I feel she is ready to take classes and try and do some personality tests to see what she should be doing if she is unsure. I would love her to find something that she can do while staying home if she does get married and start a family.

 

As far as a college degree, I have one, never have used it, but it's nice to know that I have it in case anything happens to dh or I go back to work when the kids are grown. Dh went to college some, wasted a ton of money, never got a degree and is happy being self employed, we don't make a ton of money, but are happy and raising a Godly family and we feel that's what's important.

 

Kristine

[Dayle in Guatemala]

we kind of feel that way a little. I am definitely preparing my dc for college, because if they decide they want to go, they should be prepared. I would hate it if the reason they didn't go was neglect on my part.

 

College is important. I would love for all 3 of my dc to go and experience it. But, I also know that college isn't for everyone. There's technical school and apprenticeships too as options for them. Our plan is to have them do 2 years of online college courses during their Jr. and Sr. years of high school and then whatever they want to do after that is up to them. But, at least they have 2 years.

 

Right now, today, none of my dc really want to go to college. But, that could change so quickly. We just spent so much time watching friends of ours waste time and money going to college because it was expected of them. They didn't have goals or direction. They wasted their opportunity. I would rather my dc do it when they know what they want and are focused.

[Peela]

Here in Australia, tradespeople- plumbers, electricians etc- earn more than most university graduates. I live (rent) in a wealthy, riverside suburb, and the few neighbours I know do not have degrees...the one over the back, with a riverfront property, is a builder. Builders and anyone contracted to the building industry here in my city, have more work than they can handle and long waiting lists. Calling a plumber out can be a joke..they can virtually charge what they like, they have so much work. There is a mining boom happening in my state. Its hard for local businesses to get enough checkout chicks, shop assistants, because all the young people have gone up north to make thousands a week, working really hard, in the mining industry. They can buy a house in a couple of years. Another neighbour built his own IT company, and another just has both parents working- one as a waitress is a flash hotel, the other a surf lifesaver! These wealthy suburbs are not full of university graduates, in my experience.

 

My dad earned an average income as an astronomer with a job as a university lecturer, getting paid to do research as well. My mum, however, much to my dad's unhappiness, earned more money than him, running a business from home which employed other housewives in the area, working from their homes. We were well off not because of my dad's income, but because of my mum's.

 

I have read several articles in the newspaper saying getting a degree is now just about necessary for anything...however, it doesn't guarantee any sort of a decent job. My marine biologist cousin works as an orderly in a hospital.

 

A 17yo homeschooler I know has to get a highschool diploma to do his auto electrician's apprenticeship, which up till a couple of years ago was never necessary..and it leaves non academic kids in a difficult position. Because apprenticeships are so sought after, its hard to get one....if you do, you are lucky, because the work may be mundane to many, but gee you can make a good buck.

 

It's all silly. I still think entrepreneurial skills are the most valuable...the ability to see an opportunity and grab it, to think outside the box...and Bill Gates has that kind of mind, as do many other mega wealthy people. They see opportunities others simply don't conceive. That's why they can appear to poo poo university degrees. People identify so much with their career, and it can be a limiting way to think...I am this or that, therefore this or that is what I do, and how I will earn money. Train track thinking. Great if it's your passion, and you are not too fussed about the income, but not so good if you were led to believe it was going to mean a fulfilling and successful life.

 

Many people I know, including my mother, went to university as mature age students simply because they wanted an education....not a career.My mother never used her degree, which she got when she was my age, 40. Mature aged entry is a big thing around here.

 

Of course, much of what I am saying might be location specific. I suspect college in the U.S. isn't quite what university is here...more like a step between highschool and university. It may be even more necessary there than here.

 

I think my point is, the degree doesn't guarantee anything...thinking for yourself and following your passion, not getting stuck in train track thinking, are more guarantees of having a fulfilling life than a college degree alone. Then again if you equate being successful in the eyes of society as personal success, best you go get a degree because it will give you more status.

[Mamagistra]

Peela! It's so good to see you back! :001_smile:

[*anj*]

If the purpose of going to college is "to get a better job" - as most Americans believe - then most students would do better to get focused, short-term vocational training at whatever level is appropriate to their goals than to go up to $100,000 in debt in the space of four years.

 

I'm doing the thing I hate right now: posting when I've only read about a tenth of the posts. Still, I wanted to piggyback on this post. I agree wholeheartedly. The purpose of education is not merely "to get a better job." I definitely don't think that college is for everyone, nor do I think that it is necessarily a prerequisite for "success." On the other hand I know from experience that I learned a lot more than "job skills."

[Audrey]

I don't understand the question. you say that parents don't care whether their children attend college, and then ask why they tell their dc that college doesn't matter. those are not the same things. and college just does NOT equal success, there are many people who've been VERY successful in life without attending college (lots of folks who never attended college make way more money than people who've completed 4 years and earned a degree). I don't care if my dc go to college or not. If that's what they want, great, good for them. If they want to do something else with their life, then great, good for them. I personally think that college can be a total waste of time and money.

 

I'd love to give you some pos.rep for that, but it says I have to spread some around first.

 

Anyway, you said it perfectly! My goals for educating my son at home are NOT to prepare him for college. I've BTDT and college is not "all that and a bag o' chips." It's full of students who are only there because their parents made them go. They aren't there to learn, that's for sure!

 

My goal is instill a love for learning in my son and to eventually teach him how to teach himself. Continuous learning is the key essential skill, IMO.

 

That said, he does say he's saving his money for college. That's a great goal, and I totally support him on that. Will he go to university? Will he go to (trade) college? Who knows! All I really care about, is that he feel capable enough to pursue that which he desires in his further education. I wouldn't say to him "college isn't important," but I wouldn't tell him it is, either.

[*anj*]

This probably won't get read but I want to throw in my .2 as well. We don't intend for our girls to go to college unless they desire to take a few online courses. We are raising our girls to be intelligent, productive, keepers of the home. My goal is to give my girls as many life skills as possible so if they ever need to earn money, they can do it from home. We don't believe that women should work outside the home unless there is absolutely no other choice.

 

I also encourage my daughters (and sons) to learn basic life skills so that they are equipped to take care of themselves and their homes. What confuses me about your perspective is that it doesn't seem to allow for any lifestyle choices outside of marriage and family.

 

What if your daughters don't get married and need to support themselves? What if they do get married and find themselves either widowed or divorced with children to support?

 

I have several female friends who are in their mid to late 30's and they have never been married. They are attractive, capable, intelligent, spiritual, but they also have careers. If they didn't have those careers, how would they live? Shouldn't their ability to live well be independent of their marital status?

 

I want my girls to learn how to care for their homes, but I also want them to develop a desire for knowledge and an ability to provide for themselves. I say this despite the fact that I'd be tickled pink if my girls chose a path similar to mine.

 

I want my boys to know the same things because there is little worse than a man who thinks that his paycheck is his primary contribution to family life. Knowing how to cook and clean will make them better husbands/fathers.

 

There are no guarantees in life. I don't know what the future holds for my children. That's why I believe that it's my job as a mother (and especially as a homeschooling mother) to equip them for every good work.

 

I don't mean to put you on the defensive, Michelle, but I've wanted to ask someone this question for awhile now. How does your plan account for the very real possibility that your children's lives will play out differently than you expect? :)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

Of course, much of what I am saying might be location specific. I suspect college in the U.S. isn't quite what university is here...more like a step between highschool and university. It may be even more necessary there than here.

 

 

 

Peela, in the US the terms college and university are most often used interchangeably.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Anyway, you said it perfectly! My goals for educating my son at home are NOT to prepare him for college. I've BTDT and college is not "all that and a bag o' chips." It's full of students who are only there because their parents made them go. They aren't there to learn, that's for sure!

 

 

My ONLY quibble with what you say here is that I don't really care why the people who sit next to me in school are there. And in some of the schools, there are a majority of folks who are there for the education. In some, there are expectations that the professors will do more than teach with a scantron multiple-guess test in mind.

 

I'm not in a school like that right now, and it angers me that so many are getting shortchanged, IMO. (Although I was heartened that in my program, fully 1/2 of one of the tracks of RN students failed Pharmacology -- and their grades stood as earned without anybody feeling sorry for them and passing them on through. Now they are re-taking the class and taking all of it a bit more seriously.) But there ARE those serious schools out there. My son attends one with a strong culture of learning -- they even have to pass comprehensive exams in their major as undergraduates or they don't get their diplomas. I hope my daughter will attend a similar institution.

 

Anyway, not attending church because of the hypocrites isn't a good reason not to attend church. Not attending college because your classmate isn't there to learn doesn't sound quite right, either. At least at college, unlike the majority of primary and secondary schools in the country, there is a standard to meet that's not subject to the mediocrity of the individual students in a particular class. In theory, anyhow.

[*anj*]

We have a good friend who is a university professor. He has been frequently frustrated by the lack of preparedness and sense of entitlement of many of his students. He has had to teach students how to write basic essays, how to organize thoughts, how to take notes. Lest you think that he's an English professor and that maybe he should be teaching writing, you're wrong. He teaches film/history of film/production.

 

The sense of entitlement issue is another problem altogether. He has found this to be more rampant at smaller, private, expensive colleges. He's complained about students who have poor study skills, offer lame excuses for unfinished work, took his class as a blow-off and are insulted that he expects them to work hard. They write poor papers or fail tests and expect do-overs. They have their parents call or email him. His disgust with this situation has almost driven him out of teaching (which he was absolutely born to do.) Before leaving for Europe he taught at a university that requires its students to take semesters off to work every year. He found a different caliber of student there. Perhaps because they had to enter the work world enough to learn the importance/value of their education, not sure.

 

Okay, I'm done.

[Karenciavo]

We have a good friend who is a university professor. He has been frequently frustrated by the lack of preparedness... of many of his students. He has had to teach students how to write basic essays, how to organize thoughts, how to take notes.

 

SWB has said the same. I hope I'm doing an adequate job. :001_unsure:

[Nestof3]

ang,

 

I agree with preparing daughters as well. I also agree with bringing them up to be homeschooling mothers who are a helpmeet to their husband. While I think the odds of most daughters NOT getting married if they desire to are slim, there is always a possibility of being a widow, but beyond even that is the fact that if a daughter were to homeschool her children, she may very well end up with boys. Though we do not bring our children up telling them they must go to college, and we don't hold college up to be something that is worshipped (it seems many these days deem it to be far more than it really is), we do prepare our sons to be ready for college.

 

I know many families with daughters who already show they will be excellent keepers of the home and wonderful moms. They should still be educated well in order to educate their children well.

 

I also think it is wonderful for women to have skills that would make them fine helpmeets for their husband. This video addresses this:

http://www.visionforum.com/search/productdetail.aspx?search=return&productid=67850

 

As more and more Christian men are seeking home businesses and self-employment, I think it is wise to find ways to train daughters to support this -- even if in small ways. For example, my husband is self-employed and I assist him by doing the accounting and payroll for the business.

[Storm Bay]

Peela, in the US the terms college and university are most often used interchangeably.

 

Yes. In this particular part of the States they say 4 year college and 2 year college, often (2 year college being community college). But they don't call any 4 year collge a university, but something like Rutgers is a university with a number of different colleges. This was confusing to me at first because in Canada if it's 2 years, it's college and if it's 4 years it's university. I'm not sure what it is in Australia, but perhaps similar to Canada.

[Storm Bay]

We have a good friend who is a university professor. He has been frequently frustrated by the lack of preparedness and sense of entitlement of many of his students. He has had to teach students how to write basic essays, how to organize thoughts, how to take notes. Lest you think that he's an English professor and that maybe he should be teaching writing, you're wrong. He teaches film/history of film/production.

.

 

My brother says similar about teaching post-secondary physics. I've spoken with 2 math profs that say similar with math. It's not ALL students that come unprepared, but an alarming number. btw, my brother teaches in Canada, the 2 math profs in the States.

[Audrey]

My ONLY quibble with what you say here is that I don't really care why the people who sit next to me in school are there. {snip}

 

Anyway, not attending church because of the hypocrites isn't a good reason not to attend church. Not attending college because your classmate isn't there to learn doesn't sound quite right, either. At least at college, unlike the majority of primary and secondary schools in the country, there is a standard to meet that's not subject to the mediocrity of the individual students in a particular class. In theory, anyhow.

 

I understand you --- but I wasn't trying to denegrate college because of those types of students. Part of my comment stems from having been a prof and having those kinds of students in my class. At that university, it did feel like those students were the majority. It is very frustrating as a prof and it still makes me irked. :001_huh: However, that's probably not entirely relevant to the discussion -- so, I'll admit my bias there and withdraw the comment. It wasn't intended to be a broad-brush statement. Sorry it came across that way.

[Tami]

I don't think ANY parent is a "failure", I think that EVERY parent does the best that THEY can do, period.

 

Awww, Jenn. Are you playing the Glad Game? :D I mean, do you read the news and honestly believe that?

 

Parents who neglect and abuse their children are failures at parenting. Period. The vast majority of them are not crazy, and neither have they "lost it." Since they are adults, they have themselves to blame for not seeking help when they need it.

 

Children are not always born to loving, safe, protective homes. The blaming society crap really irks me. There never has been, nor ever will be a Utiopia. We are all born into a world that stinks. It's no excuse to abuse or neglect kids and blame Society.

 

Ahhh! I feel better. :ack2:

[j.griff]

I honestly do have very radical views on things, and most people will not agree with me. That's okay. And no, I am not playing the glad game, IMO, I am a very literal realist. I am Christian, so my world view is different than some too, in that respect. If we are going to play the blame game, and label people as failures, then let's go all the way back to the beginning. Adam and Eve made the first bad choice, it's "their fault" there's sin in the world. They failed as Creatures of God. :D I DO think that everyone is doing the best that they can do at any given time. They may be "capable" of "doing better", BUT- due to stress, emotional issues, clouded judgement, drug use, addictions, disease, differing worldview, psychosis, and just plain ingorance, etc. they can only do the best that they can- which may not be what others see as the best option, but the person in the situation is doing the best they are totally capable of *at that time*. I do not believe in optimism- it's just not real. I believe that society as a whole is an utter failure- if it weren't there weren't be starving people, genocide, war, etc. The global society has failed everyone. We are capable of GREAT things, but those great things aren't happening. Why? Because everyone is doing the "best" they can do- due to greed, neglect, depression, selfishness, etc. Also due to limits placed on us by Society.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

There is a fine line between encouraging your children in whatever endevour they take on and discouraging them from going to college. There is a balance between realizing that many college programs are stuffed with fluff that is little more than navel gazing and does little to educate the student and deciding that all college programs are worthless.

 

I have encountered this attitude from some families and found that it is sometimes based in religious belief (those universities are just a den of iniquity), or classism (your dad didn't need college to provide for our family), or gender roles (why spend money on a degree that our girls won't need?).

 

I have seen some families that have chosen a less challenging path from an early stage and by the time that they are discussing post-high school options, they've already eliminated some choices as beyond the students academically. I'm an admissions liason for my alma mater and often encounter students (both homeschooled and ps) who decide they'd like to attend my school at the end of their high school years but have an insufficient foundation for the demands of the school. My favorite people to talk to are middle schoolers and their parents. They are still in a position to form their academic experience to set themselves up to have options.

 

I personally try to keep an open mind. I don't think that all college programs are worthwhile, that all students are emotionally and maturity-wise ready for college at age 18, or that only post college jobs have value. I don't think my kids will have failed if they choose not to go to college. But I don't want to decide when my kid is 8 or 10 that they won't become a scientist or an engineer or a lawyer.

[Michelle in MO]

we have a few families who don't value college. I don't think college is for every child; children can grow up to be a success in life without having a degree. Conversely, someone can have a degree and be a complete failure.

 

However, there are a few in our area who don't seem to value college for their children because they never went to college, and for some reason, that attitude bothers me. My parents never went to college, but they wanted more for my brother and I and so they wanted us to set our goals higher than the ones they were able to attain. I think for many children college should be encouraged; for others, their goals might be trade school or some other type of secondary education.

[j.griff]

And here's a question for you: "Do the times make the man, or does a man make the times?"

[Michelle My Bell]

 

I don't mean to put you on the defensive, Michelle, but I've wanted to ask someone this question for awhile now. How does your plan account for the very real possibility that your children's lives will play out differently than you expect?

 

Actually I think the possibility that my children won't get married is pretty slim. Most people do get married. That aside, I don't claim to know what their futures hold, nor do I intend to plan their lives for them in any way. We are simply raising them with our values as I am sure all of you are.

 

We place great value on motherhood and keeper of the home. We also place great value on solid learning and the Bible. My desire is not to lead my children down a road of stuggles since we won't send them to college, but a rich life of knowledge and continued learning.

 

Part of our homeschool program involves adding in life skills that are far more important than some degree they will likely never use. Some of thes skills include:

 

Sewing, basketry, pottery, art, cooking, etc...

ALSO

Comparison Shopping, Managing Accounts, Investing, Buying a home, etc...

ALSO

Fixing appliances, carpentry, gardening etc...

 

These are some of the skills we will teach our daughters (and our son when he gets there..) Many of these skills could easily be transmitted into future income for our daughters in the unlikely event that they will need an income.

 

But let me say something that is probably not what most would say. Our daughters will always have a home with us right up until the day of their marriage. It is not our intention to thrust our daughters out at 18 and say goodluck. They will have the protection of home for as long as they desire or need it. We will always be there for them.

 

Something I also didn't see mentioned here is the dangers of college for daughters. I lived on campus for 4 years with my husband at a christian college and I know that there were a lot of problems with girls and guys even there. I can't imagine what it would be like at a secular college. A long time ago, parents wouldn't even think about sending their daughters out into the world until their daughters were married. Our society today can't wait. JMHO, not intended to offend.

 

Michelle

[Tami]

Wow, that is kinda depressing, Jenn. :willy_nilly:

 

I believe that people have possibilities for both good and evil and that we are accountable for our actions. I believe that children need to be protected at times from parents who have failed at their responsibilities. I believe that good will win out in the end, and that humanity's fall is not beyond the reach of God's grace.

 

Until then, it is society's business to punish evil and reward good. Each person is capable of making choices for the good of others, or choices that cause others to suffer. If we give everyone the Awful Society excuse, than prosecution for child neglect and abuse would be nonsensical. I believe children who cannot speak for themselves, or advocate for themselves need to be protected from neglectful, abuse parents who have failed at their duties.

 

I'm getting off track. I'm thankful that so many parents are wonderful (especially them there homeschoolers!), and am humbled at the opportunity to have met some of them.

[j.griff]

*I* am not saying that the fact that Society is a complete failure (IMO) is an "excuse" for anyone. I am just stating that *I* detest labels, and *I* detest people labelling people as "failures" because they don't meet someone else's expectations. And *I* still believe that even if someone commits an atrocious act, they are still doing their personal best- for those circumstances at that time. <shrug>. I really don't like when people place limits on me either- such as suggesting I'm "playing the glad game", because my Radical thinking does not (and will not, by definition) ever line up with theirs.

[j.griff]

*I* am not saying that the fact that Society is a complete failure (IMO) is an "excuse" for anyone. I am just stating that *I* detest labels, and *I* detest people labelling people as "failures" because they don't meet someone else's expectations. And *I* still believe that even if someone commits an atrocious act, they are still doing their personal best- for those circumstances at that time. <shrug>. I really don't like when people place limits on me either- such as suggesting I'm "playing the glad game", because my Radical thinking does not (and will not, by definition) ever line up with theirs.

Not developing certain coping skills/life skills does not mean someone has failed, it means society has failed. Yes people are responsible for their actions, but that also has to apply to Society as a whole. Their will never be a Utopia- because people hate themselves and each other too much, and will never get beyond accusing each other and labellling each other long enough to work toward a common goal.

[Robin in Tx]

Michelle, I know many families who feel the same way and have raised their girls accordingly, and their girls have gone on to be the sort of wives and homemakers they were raised to be. These are great families and I admire them very much.

 

But then I look at someone like SWB, whose education has allowed her to work *FROM* the home, and to do work that is monetarily rewarding enough that her work actually DOES fulfill the definition of being a help mate to her husband. I don't know the personal details of their finances, but I would guess that her income is no small factor in allowing her husband to pastor the small church he was called to pastor. And, of course, because of the education she received, we are now all benefiting from her guidance and encouragement in the homeschooling arena. I am very thankful that her mother didn't have the same idea about girls and college :).

 

I'm not trying to put you on the defensive about your choice, because I believe that you know best and are led to do what you believe is the right thing. But for anyone else reading this thread, who might be trying to decide where they are going to hang their hat, I want them to consider that there is a whole lot more a woman can do these days to be a Proverbs 31 woman other than domestic crafts. Real partnership in a marriage, genuinely living as one flesh, requires a single set of parameters which the united flesh is operating within - not a set for her and a set for him. Honestly, when I consider women like SWB (and there are others here on this board), I think of *them* as being the ideal Proverbs 31 woman... and not the woman who has limited her contributions to domestic skills with no regard for the potential that God has gifted her with.

 

Just a different point of view to consider... hope I'm not offending in any way.

 

Robin

[Tami]

Not wanting to let this get tiresome and completely off topic, feel free to IM me if you want to continue this discussion.

 

Oh, my glad game comment was meant to be light-hearted. I'm just being silly! Don't take me too seriously. :D

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I understand you --- but I wasn't trying to denegrate college because of those types of students. Part of my comment stems from having been a prof and having those kinds of students in my class. At that university, it did feel like those students were the majority. It is very frustrating as a prof and it still makes me irked. :001_huh: However, that's probably not entirely relevant to the discussion -- so, I'll admit my bias there and withdraw the comment. It wasn't intended to be a broad-brush statement. Sorry it came across that way.

 

I can't imagine being a professor in my particular school. It would make me stark raving looney, what with the whining and moaning and wondering why lack of study produces low grades (can you imagine such a thing?). I don't know how you did it.

[Robin in Tx]

For someone who worked in the professional world for ten years before marrying, I can attest to the fact that the difference between a college degree and no college degree was the difference between being on a time card and being on salary (in every job I had). Salaried employees earned a lot more than non salaried, even if the work load was identical - they just gave the position a different name and pay scale. And once you reached the top of the non-salaried tier, you hit a ceiling and couldn't go any further up no matter how well you could do the job. College degree was required, and it often didin't matter what the degree was in... the larger and higher profile the firm, the truer this was.

 

You will not hear me saying the things that you hear from others, because I going to college is definitely our default mode. Once an adult, dd can certainly choose to do as she pleases, and doesn't have to answer to me anymore, but as far as it's up to me, I'll not be finished with what I perceive as my responsibilities until college is complete. Some people feel the same way about high school... they consider a high school graduation the "finish line", even though there are GED and vocational programs available... I see my view as no different from theirs... I've set a "finish line" that is beyond the bare minimum, and I've done so mainly because I know what it's like to be perfectly capable yet held back from opportunity because of one piece of paper. IT's why I sent myself back to college later in life, as an adult.

 

Robin

[SparrowsNest]

I am just stating that *I* detest labels, and *I* detest people labelling people as "failures" because they don't meet someone else's expectations. And *I* still believe that even if someone commits an atrocious act, they are still doing their personal best- for those circumstances at that time. <shrug>. I really don't like when people place limits on me either- such as suggesting I'm "playing the glad game", because my Radical thinking does not (and will not, by definition) ever line up with theirs.

Not developing certain coping skills/life skills does not mean someone has failed, it means society has failed.

In your attempt to remove responsibility from the actual perpetrator, you have only moved the burden to another set of human shoulders. What is 'society' if not individual people? Your rhetoric seems to remove the burden from the individual, but it only shifts it to other individuals.

 

If, on the other hand, you truly believe that pedophiles or racially-motivated murderers are really 'doing the best they can,' then there is no discussion to be had. I shudder when I think of the cases of child abuse I have heard/read about, and I studiously avoid them if at all possible, so I have probably only seen the tip of the iceberg. These people aren't doing the best they can, they are acting in deeply perverted and cruel, and frankly downright evil ways.

 

One other thing, about young women and education... I understand preparing a daughter to be a godly woman and a keeper of the home. But there is a harsh reality that women do find themselves, for any number of reasons from being widowed to a debilitating illness or accident to having an adultering husband, alone and desperately needing to be able to support themselves. So I do want my daughters equipped to support themselves and a family, if need be.

[FlockOfSillies]

Just because college isn't a good fit for everyone or necessary for a wonderful life doesn't mean it has to be devalued.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're responding to my comment about college being devalued, let me clarify. I just meant that a college degree, in economic terms, is not worth as much as it used to be. It has become the minimum requirement for jobs that used to require only a high school diploma. Because hs diplomas are routinely handed out to students who do little more than breathe, employers can't depend on a high school diploma to mean much. So they use a college degree to help them weed out undesirable candidates. (If only we had a college-equivalency exam available... brilliant kids who would be wasting their time in college could prove their abilities and still receive the same pay scale as someone with a diploma.)

 

Does that help, or am I way off base in understanding you? :)

[SparrowsNest]

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're responding to my comment about college being devalued, let me clarify. I just meant that a college degree, in economic terms, is not worth as much as it used to be. It has become the minimum requirement for jobs that used to require only a high school diploma. Because hs diplomas are routinely handed out to students who do little more than breathe, employers can't depend on a high school diploma to mean much. So they use a college degree to help them weed out undesirable candidates. (If only we had a college-equivalency exam available... brilliant kids who would be wasting their time in college could prove their abilities and still receive the same pay scale as someone with a diploma.)

 

Does that help, or am I way off base in understanding you? :)

 

 

Oh, no I was responding to the original comment, saying that college 'doesn't matter,' i.e., devaluing it LOL In other words, just because something isn't perfect for everyone doesn't mean it valuable for some people.

 

And, by the way, I totally agree with you that it is devalued in an economic sense. :) It is yesterday's high school diploma, which is why we are planning on our children going and that is our family 'culture.'

[Audrey]

I can't imagine being a professor in my particular school. It would make me stark raving looney, what with the whining and moaning and wondering why lack of study produces low grades (can you imagine such a thing?). I don't know how you did it.

 

Well, I'm not doing it anymore, and that says a lot. I was able to walk away with (most of) my sanity intact. ;) I have stories, though... oh my, do I ever!

 

To be honest, the politics of academia are the worst part of it all. The students would come and go... transient problems or joys. Even though I can sincerely say that the majority of the students couldn't have cared less, I did have the occasional student who loved learning, was mature and responsible and who gave sincere effort to my classes. Those students made it worthwhile.

 

But, then I met the farmer of my dreams and the academic era of my life is old history now. :001_smile:

[j.griff]

In your attempt to remove responsibility from the actual perpetrator, you have only moved the burden to another set of human shoulders. What is 'society' if not individual people? Your rhetoric seems to remove the burden from the individual, but it only shifts it to other individuals.

 

If, on the other hand, you truly believe that pedophiles or racially-motivated murderers are really 'doing the best they can,' then there is no discussion to be had. I shudder when I think of the cases of child abuse I have heard/read about, and I studiously avoid them if at all possible, so I have probably only seen the tip of the iceberg. These people aren't doing the best they can, they are acting in deeply perverted and cruel, and frankly downright evil ways.

 

 

 

Wow, I have a radically different view, so people feel the need to call me on it and twist my words into meaning something different than what I am saying, and then tell me there is no discussion to be had. Interesting.

I never said that I don't believe that sex offenders or child abusers do not deserve to be "punished". I just said that they are doing the best they can. And that was going on a different tangent than my Original reply- in which I said:

 

I say, if you raise your kids and they survive all the years of childhood, then you have succeeded. I don't think ANY parent is a "failure", I think that EVERY parent does the best that THEY can do, period. Even if someone else thinks they could have done a "better" job, they did the best that they were capable of at that time.

Note that first sentence- insofar as judging whether a parent has failed their child depending on what "education" they have provided- NO parent is a "failure". If the child reaches adult hood, then by definition the parent has succeeded in parenting/raising the child.

Then someone argued on whether *I* really believe that "no parent is a failure". YES, *I* really DO believe that. I believe everyone is ****ed, and everyone makes different levels of mistakes. IMO- everyone is doing the best that THEY can do, at any given time- whether that means they are failures to other people is irrelevant.

[FlockOfSillies]

I'm always paranoid that my posts could end up under the wrong part of the thread. :eek:

[Robin in Tx]

Don't know how your comment ended up under mine... Just for the record, I'm talking about planning for college. I really don't know what Jujubee is talking about, and that wasn't my post she quoted! LOL

 

Robin

[abbeyej]

Don't know how your comment ended up under mine... Just for the record, I'm talking about planning for college. I really don't know what Jujubee is talking about, and that wasn't my post she quoted! LOL

 

 

Robin, I find that the "threading" in these posts is often just useless. There seems to be no rhyme nor reason to it. :confused:

[Storm Bay]

To be honest, the politics of academia are the worst part of it all.

 

You're not the first person I've heard say this! A friend of mine quit teaching at university for this very reason, although even with a Ph. D., it wasn't his full time job (on purpose on his part).

[abbeyej]

Originally Posted by Audrey

To be honest, the politics of academia are the worst part of it all.

 

You're not the first person I've heard say this! A friend of mine quit teaching at university for this very reason, although even with a Ph. D., it wasn't his full time job (on purpose on his part).

 

Perhaps you two would appreciate this. ;)

[SparrowsNest]

IMO- everyone is doing the best that THEY can do, at any given time- whether that means they are failures to other people is irrelevant.

 

Jenn, maybe we have radically different understandings of 'doing the best they can do.' I cannot see that a pedophile or murderer is doing the best they can. I see that they see something they want and take it, by force, without regard to the effects upon others. I see that they are acting selfishly and with wanton disregard for their effect upon others. I do not see that any parent whose child merely survives childhood -- no matter the scars they carry, internally or externally -- can say that they were a success. This manner of thinking seems completely irrational to me. I don't understand it at all. Could you explain why you view it this way, where you're coming from? What do you mean by 'doing the best they can' and do you not think that saying it's 'society's fault' not an individual's fault is simply shifting the blame to another person? How did you arrive at these opinions?