nukeswife Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 My son was working on a paper for SWI B and the topic was cephalopods. In the sample paragraph they use the plural Octopi. It showed up in open office as a spelling error, so I did some searching on line and it seems there is confusion as to whether it should be Octopuses, Octopi or Octopodes. So which do you say. For the record we've always said Octopi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto2Cs Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Open Office seems to think a lot of words are misspelled, especially anything science-y. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeswife Posted January 22, 2010 Author Share Posted January 22, 2010 Open Office seems to think a lot of words are misspelled, especially anything science-y. I'm noticing that. It also didn't recognize cephalopod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 I use "octopodes," but "octopuses" is acceptable as well. Here's what my shorter Oxford says: [ORIGIN Modern Latin from Greek oktōpous, from oktō eight + pous foot.] [snip] – NOTE: Standard pl. in English is octopuses, although the Greek pl. octopodes is still occas. used. The Latinate form octopi is incorrect. This makes sense, since it's derived from Greek and not Latin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in VA Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Our dictionary says 'octopi'. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Condessa Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Octopi is wrong. The 'pus' in octopus is Greek for foot, not the Latin '-us' singular ending, so pluralizing it with the Latin '-i' is incorrect. Octopodes is the Greek plural, but English doesn't borrow the Greek form of pluralization like it often does with Latin borrowings. The correct plural is just octopus. (Like deer or sheep or fish.) However, octopuses appears frequently enough that it is generally accepted. Linguistics nerd here. I love questions like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Cool! Thanks mmconde. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trixie Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 I use "octopodes," but "octopuses" is acceptable as well. Here's what my shorter Oxford says: [ORIGIN Modern Latin from Greek oktōpous, from oktō eight + pous foot.] [snip] – NOTE: Standard pl. in English is octopuses, although the Greek pl. octopodes is still occas. used. The Latinate form octopi is incorrect. This makes sense, since it's derived from Greek and not Latin. Bingo. This is correct. I use the standard anglicized plural "octopuses," though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 I use "octopodes," but "octopuses" is acceptable as well. Here's what my shorter Oxford says: [ORIGIN Modern Latin from Greek oktōpous, from oktō eight + pous foot.] [snip] – NOTE: Standard pl. in English is octopuses, although the Greek pl. octopodes is still occas. used. The Latinate form octopi is incorrect. This makes sense, since it's derived from Greek and not Latin. Fowler's "Modern English Usage" says octopi is WRONG [as you say it is Greek, not Latin], and "octopodes" is pedantic [but not incorrect]. He favors "octopuses." I kind of like pedantic myself :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisa Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 I thought it was octopuses. And now I know why! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen+4dc Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 So I was wrong (octopi):tongue_smilie:. At least I'm not alone:D. Thanks for our "word of the day" today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Very interesting... thanks for posting this :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Octopi is wrong. The 'pus' in octopus is Greek for foot, not the Latin '-us' singular ending, so pluralizing it with the Latin '-i' is incorrect. Octopodes is the Greek plural, but English doesn't borrow the Greek form of pluralization like it often does with Latin borrowings. The correct plural is just octopus. (Like deer or sheep or fish.) However, octopuses appears frequently enough that it is generally accepted. Linguistics nerd here. I love questions like this. That's what I thought! But it wasn't on the poll. Actually, I think dh mentioned that last week, and he's not the linguist of our house. I was impressed :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 I thought it was octopupi...but i picked other because maybe it is just octopus...like deer. ??? Faithe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinsfamily Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Very interesting...I thought it was octopi. So octopus is correct, but octopuses is accepted? So now that we know, shouldn't we use octopus? Would you use octopuses out of habit or because more people think it's correct? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trixie Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 So octopus is correct, but octopuses is accepted? Not quite. "Octopodes" is technically correct, but "octopuses" is also correct/acceptable as the standard plural in English. (See nmoira's post above.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Very interesting...I thought it was octopi. So octopus is correct, but octopuses is accepted?I see no source for "octopus" being an acceptable plural form. "Octopuses" is more common, but either "octopuses" or "octopodes" is correct... and "octopi" does linger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinsfamily Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 I see no source for "octopus" being an acceptable plural form. "Octopuses" is more common, but either "octopuses" or "octopodes" is correct... and "octopi" does linger. I was primarily looking at this post... Octopi is wrong. The 'pus' in octopus is Greek for foot, not the Latin '-us' singular ending, so pluralizing it with the Latin '-i' is incorrect. Octopodes is the Greek plural, but English doesn't borrow the Greek form of pluralization like it often does with Latin borrowings. The correct plural is just octopus. (Like deer or sheep or fish.) However, octopuses appears frequently enough that it is generally accepted. Linguistics nerd here. I love questions like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 I was primarily looking at this post...But I see no "official" sources that agree with this. I'd be interested to, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia On My Mind Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 :glare: Well, I learn something new everyday if I pay attention. I was all ready to go with the octopi because of my Latin background but I am so glad you all clarified it is Greek, not Latin. It makes perfect sense and I am so glad I read all the posts, not just the ones I could agreed with. Love you language nerds.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 We use octopi just because it's fun to say, but I think the correct plural is octopuses. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Well, now that is fascinating! I'm a linguistics nerd, too, but I would have sworn on the Holy Bible that it was octopi. Please don't tell me I'm wrong about cactus/cacti, too. :tongue_smilie: Very interesting...I thought it was octopi. So octopus is correct, but octopuses is accepted? So now that we know, shouldn't we use octopus? Would you use octopuses out of habit or because more people think it's correct? Just curious. It bugs me some when a form once acknowledged as incorrect becomes so widely used that the incorrect form becomes accepted. The word "curriculums" springs to mind. :glare: My mother always goes squirrely when someone uses the phrase "so unique". Although I saw not too long ago that this is also now generally accepted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trixie Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 My mother always goes squirrely when someone uses the phrase "so unique". Although I saw not too long ago that this is also now generally accepted. AAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHH!!! :svengo: No, no, no, no, no, no, no! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Trixie, that was a perfect immitation of my mother. Do you know her? Are you her? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EthiopianFood Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 It bugs me some when a form once acknowledged as incorrect becomes so widely used that the incorrect form becomes accepted. :iagree::iagree: My mother always goes squirrely when someone uses the phrase "so unique". Although I saw not too long ago that this is also now generally accepted. :confused: :blushing: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepymommy Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 I say octopus, although I've heard many say octopi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/octopus Dictionary.com has two listings (from two different dictionaries), and they both say the plural is octopuses or octopi. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/octopus Merriam-Webster also says octopuses or octopi. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/424902/octopus Wow, even britannica says octopuses or octopi. I guess I'll continue to say octopi. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 RaeAnne, are you asking for further explaination of why "so unique" is incorrect? Maybe you are or maybe you're not, but here's the explaination either way: The root of unique is unus, Latin for "one". The precise meaning of unique is "one of a kind". Therefore, it should not normally have a modifier. It is improper to say something is so, rather, very, somewhat or kind of unique. If there's only one of it, there's only one of it. No need to say there is so only one of it. People use unique interchangeably with unusual or rare, but it's precise meaning precludes this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutor Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I use "octopodes," but "octopuses" is acceptable as well. Here's what my shorter Oxford says: [ORIGIN Modern Latin from Greek oktōpous, from oktō eight + pous foot.] [snip] – NOTE: Standard pl. in English is octopuses, although the Greek pl. octopodes is still occas. used. The Latinate form octopi is incorrect. This makes sense, since it's derived from Greek and not Latin. This is grammatically accurate, however, scientists (in an attempt to unify and simplify scientific terms) Latinized Greek roots so that prefixes and suffixes could be standardized. Following this pattern, many scientists (like at the University of Michigan's Museum of Zoology) use "octopi." However, some choose to go with common grammar rules rather than the latinized, scientific version (like UC Berkley's Museum of Paleontology) and use "octopuses." I prefer "octopi" to remain consistent with the Latinization, but it's not like the police are going to come arrest anyone for using their form of choice. As long as you know why you use the version you do, I don't think it really matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 This is grammatically accurate, however, scientists (in an attempt to unify and simplify scientific terms) Latinized Greek roots so that prefixes and suffixes could be standardized. Following this pattern, many scientists (like at the University of Michigan's Museum of Zoology) use "octopi." However, some choose to go with common grammar rules rather than the latinized, scientific version (like UC Berkley's Museum of Paleontology) and use "octopuses." This gave me an idea. I went to Science Daily and did a 10+ year search for: octopi -- 2 results (one from 2003 and one from 2007) octopuses -- 20 results (ranging in dates from 2001 to Dec. 2009) octopodes -- 0 results These are mostly either press releases from peer reviewed journals, or from various institutions about articles in peer reviewed journals. I tried to do a search of New Scientist, because they have more comprehensive archives, but I cannot find a way to search articles and exclude the comments. Google Scholar gives: octopi -- 2600 results octopuses -- 21,800 results octopodes -- 418 results Edited to add: The ratio is consistent between Science Daily and Google Scholar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EthiopianFood Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 (edited) RaeAnne, are you asking for further explaination of why "so unique" is incorrect? Maybe you are or maybe you're not, but here's the explaination either way: The root of unique is unus, Latin for "one". The precise meaning of unique is "one of a kind". Therefore, it should not normally have a modifier. It is improper to say something is so, rather, very, somewhat or kind of unique. If there's only one of it, there's only one of it. No need to say there is so only one of it. People use unique interchangeably with unusual or rare, but it's precise meaning precludes this. Yes, I figured my smilies were a little unclear, but I decided to go with it. :D Thank you for the explanation. Now I have to think of something to say other than "so unique." :glare: This gave me an idea. I went to Science Daily and did a 10+ year search for: octopi -- 2 results (one from 2003 and one from 2007) octopuses -- 20 results (ranging in dates from 2001 to Dec. 2009) octopodes -- 0 results These are mostly either press releases from peer reviewed journals, or from various institutions about articles in peer reviewed journals. I tried to do a search of New Scientist, because they have more comprehensive archives, but I cannot find a way to search articles and exclude the comments. Google Scholar gives: octopi -- 2600 results octopuses -- 21,800 results octopodes -- 418 results Edited to add: The ratio is consistent between Science Daily and Google Scholar. I was prepared to say "octopodes." I am NOT saying "octopuses." I think I liked myself better BEFORE The Hive, when I was delusional enough to think I was well-educated and spoke using proper grammar. Sigh. Edited January 23, 2010 by RaeAnne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I was prepared to say "octopodes." I am NOT saying "octopuses."There's a worse option than octopuses. :D :tongue_smilie: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renai Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 The correct plural is just octopus. (Like deer or sheep or fish.) However, octopuses appears frequently enough that it is generally accepted. Linguistics nerd here. I love questions like this. Octopus as plural is what I thought was the standard as well, and what we've always used. (No linguists here.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EthiopianFood Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 There's a worse option than octopuses. :D :tongue_smilie: :lol: I was looking for that option on the poll, but it wasn't there. :001_huh: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Common usage is changing for words such as cactii (to cactuses, etc., as with octopii) and some dictionaries will list the fact that this is in flux right now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yslek Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Fowler's "Modern English Usage" says octopi is WRONG [as you say it is Greek, not Latin], and "octopodes" is pedantic [but not incorrect]. He favors "octopuses." I kind of like pedantic myself :D Bill :iagree: Me, too. :D I learned that this came from the Greek -pus (plura -podes) when I took Greek in college. B & T love saying "octopodes". :) I've heard so many people correct children who say "octopuses" by saying, "no, it's octopi"...I used to be one of those people, but now it kind of bugs me. If the ending were based on the Latin -us, that would of course be correct, but it's not. (I'd much rather hear "octopuses" now than "octopi". It makes more sense to anglicize the ending than to pretend it came from Latin.) I imagine that so many dictionaries list "octopi" as the/an acceptable plural is that so many people say it. If a mistake is made enough times, it eventually becomes "correct". (Hmm...how many wrongs make a right, I wonder? :lol:) (An example of a word that has changed due to error is the word "newt". It used to be called an "ewte". The "n" from "an" somehow became affixed to the "ewte" part to render the word "newt". Similarly, our word "apron" used to be "napron"; it's related to the word "napkin". I find this kind of thing fun and fascinating.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I agree with the Octopus and then to confuse it... Why not add an (') ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinsfamily Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 (An example of a word that has changed due to error is the word "newt". It used to be called an "ewte". The "n" from "an" somehow became affixed to the "ewte" part to render the word "newt". Similarly, our word "apron" used to be "napron"; it's related to the word "napkin". I find this kind of thing fun and fascinating.) Wow, now I've learned 3 cool things today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I think I liked myself better BEFORE The Hive, when I was delusional enough to think I was well-educated and spoke using proper grammar. Sigh. My sentiments exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I imagine that so many dictionaries list "octopi" as the/an acceptable plural is that so many people say it. If a mistake is made enough times, it eventually becomes "correct". (Hmm...how many wrongs make a right, I wonder? :lol:) Essentially this is correct. Most dictionaries today are "descriptive", which is to say they report "usage" (even "incorrect" usage) rather than being "prescriptive" dictionaries which describe "correct" usage. This is a problem because many people think that if it's "in the dictionary" it must be correct, when that's not the case. All it means is there are enough people using words "wrongly" that the usage is included in the dictionary. Octopi is a perfect example. It is WRONG to use this as the plural for octopus, but you will find it listed in descriptive dictionaries because many people use this (incorrectly) instead of octopuses (or octopodes). Does this make sense? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I was prepared to say "octopodes." I am NOT saying "octopuses." I think I liked myself better BEFORE The Hive, when I was delusional enough to think I was well-educated and spoke using proper grammar. LOL. I like knowing I have more to learn but occasionally I embrace the delusion and go along my merry way. Originally Posted by nmoira View PostThis gave me an idea. I went to Science Daily and did a 10+ year search for: octopi -- 2 results (one from 2003 and one from 2007) octopuses -- 20 results (ranging in dates from 2001 to Dec. 2009) octopodes -- 0 results These are mostly either press releases from peer reviewed journals, or from various institutions about articles in peer reviewed journals. I tried to do a search of New Scientist, because they have more comprehensive archives, but I cannot find a way to search articles and exclude the comments. Google Scholar gives: octopi -- 2600 results octopuses -- 21,800 results octopodes -- 418 results Edited to add: The ratio is consistent between Science Daily and Google Scholar. My husband is laughing his butt off! Thanks for the entertainment. He's shaking his head saying, "Only on WTM do people have conversations like this." :lol::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomToJediKnights Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I was going to say (as has already been said) that the plural is probably octopus. I am horrible with such things, but it just sounds right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I was looking for that option on the poll, but it wasn't there. :001_huh: :lol: Are you talking about the Bond version? :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeswife Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 Using Octopus for plural just sounds odd to me. "Did you see that group of octopus?" It may not be linguistically right but I'll stick with Octopi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Condessa Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Yes, octopus is technically the correct way, but octopuses has been so widely used that it is now generally accepted as correct by 'official sources', too. Just like the word curriculums, or pronouncing the word often "off-ten". Someone asked about an official source, but I don't have it anymore. I researched the question a few years back when I was studying for my Linguistics major at BYU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Yes, octopus is technically the correct way, but octopuses has been so widely used that it is now generally accepted as correct by 'official sources', too. Just like the word curriculums, or pronouncing the word often "off-ten". Someone asked about an official source, but I don't have it anymore. I researched the question a few years back when I was studying for my Linguistics major at BYU. Okay, how do you pronounce it correctly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Condessa Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 It was pronounced "off-fen" with a silent t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trixie Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 But I see no "official" sources that agree with this. I'd be interested to, though. As would I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I like the , also spelled oktapodi, you can find it under both spellings. We have a high-res version on iTunes, it was either free or cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trixie Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 It was pronounced "off-fen" with a silent t. You seem to be saying that "often" used to be pronounced with a silent "t" and that the generally accepted pronunciation is now "off-ten," but maybe I'm misunderstanding you? Actually, the reverse is true. "Often" was originally pronounced "off-ten" (as it comes from OE "oft" and ME "ofte"); but the generally accepted pronunciation is now "off-en," with "off-ten" an increasingly common secondary (but--grudgingly--accepted ;)) pronunciation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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