How to educate a child like well educated people in late 1700's?

[bethben]

My "ideal" educated child would look like the educated Thomas Jeffersons and George Washingtons. People who started this country knew how to think and reason in their early 20's. They seemed to be able to handle large responsiblities at early ages. The stuff people read back then for general reading was so deep, we have trouble reading it today. I heard about a town in the late 1700's where they used to "draw straws" to pick the next leaders. Everyone was considered to be well educated and able to think well enough to lead well.

 

So, the question is - how do we educate our children when our standard is that high? My husband and I - though college educated never even acheived that type of education and now just don't have the energy as we plop into bed after the kids go to bed. So, how does one go about this? Do we move to the middle of nowhere away from society and only have certain books available to read:001_huh: (lol)? Can this even be done in our society anymore?

 

Beth

[thowell]

I have wondered this myself. I think one thing that is different is that children had alot more responsibilities at a much earlier age back then. Also without all the entertainment like movies, I-pods, TV, video games, children used their imaginations alot more which I believe is a key aspect in mental maturity and creativity. I also think this leads to a much diffeent way of thinking. Things weren't laid out for children they had to learn alot on their own. And yes, the education standards were much higher even though alot of people never received 12 years of education what they did receive in the first 7 or 8 years was more than what our children receive today ( at least through PS). It would be wondreful to figure out how to accomplish this now.

[charlotteb]

I think it has to do more with what expectations people have of their teen-aged children. My son and I recently read "Do Hard Things" by Alex and Brett Harris. It is written toward the student, but I gleamed so much from it myself. It talks about how young people know are expected to be lazy, unmotivated, rebellious, etc. And how that's not the way it was ever meant to be.

 

Also, as the pp mentioned, kids these days are so fascinated with TV, computer, game systems, etc that they don't value education, talking with their parents, nor do they care about the world around them much.

[thowell]

:iagree: completely. Even when you watch cartoons and shows aimed at young people, the children on the shows demonstrate these exact traits.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[bethben]

I wonder if we really just need to cut out the media - that would go over well:glare:. People back then, when they went to college, they were young teens, but really able to think college level work (even by our standards today). I think part of it was because middle age was around 20 years old, so you had to grow up fast and think marriage and career fairly quickly.

Beth

[Faithr]

Latin Centered Curriculum!

[Mama Lynx]

Latin Centered Curriculum!

 

Yep!! :D

[bethben]

Stephanie-

I notice you have quite the list including TOG. I would definately keep TOG, but how do you implement the rest? Do I just add Latin to my list and call it a day?

Beth

[hillfarm]

Most of the people back then grew up in a rural setting, usually on a farm. Farm kids have to learn hard work and responsibility early in life. And they also learn the consequences of life without education. (Kids in town saw this very obvious difference also.) Back then there were few social services available, so the uneducated poor often suffered greatly due to their lack of opportunities, even to the point of starving to death. Education was seen as a way out of such a life and those who had the opportunity to improve their lot (and that of their family) through education were generally quick and diligent to do so.

 

Flash forward to today. I had the opportunity to speak with the father of the West Virginia teen fiddle champion. When someone asked how his son became so musically accomplished at such a young age, he answered that their county is so rural that it doesn't have even a single stop light. There are NO disctractions there. So his son focused on his music.

 

I guess it is just human nature. When there are no distractions and a tough life ahead, a person will be much more willing to devote themselves to something we consider "hard", especially in order to seek a more pleasant lifestyle.

[GoVanGogh]

Re: Maturity.

My grandma graduated from high school at age 16, got on a bus and rode half way across the country to work at a factory in California - during WWII. Two years later, she got married, moved back to her home town and had twins. A year later, she had my father. After the children were in school, my grandma went to college and became an RN.

 

As a parent today, I can't even begin to imagine letting my young teen (if I had one) do that! Nor can I imagine many 19-year-olds married, with three children under the age of 2. (They were married 40+ years and, by all accounts, had a great life.)

 

I talked to my grandma about that time period a few years before she passed away and she said that it was just expected - you graduated young and started a family. You were responsible because society expected you to be.

Today, most parents would counsel their children to hold off on marriage, hold off on starting a family.

 

My child is still young, so this is uncharted territory for me. But I will say that I am shocked by the teens in our neighborhood. I am friendly with the parents and discouraged at how many times they say, "Well, they are still young. They don't know what to do with their lives." They are all 19 and 20 now and are still hanging out at their parents, smoking in the driveway, not employed, not in college.

I don't know what the expectations are these days but, judging by the kids in our neighborhood, expectations have taken a nose-dive in the last two generations.

[Julie Herbster]

I wonder if we really just need to cut out the media - that would go over well:glare:.

Not a bad idea, bethben. We've tried hard to do this, although in this world 'media' are of course ubiquitous and pervasive. My kids really don't know what they're missing...They watch very little TV (I would say no TV, but maybe twice a month they watch a prerecorded America's Funniest Video show, or happen to come downstairs after being put to bed, and see a little of my dh's football game...but no regular shows). They have no video games, no ipods, no cell phones, no Wii, no personal gaming devices...and as I'm rereading this post so far, I realize I sound like some kind of back-woods extreme kook who condemns out-of-hand all of the things I'm mentioning. (I don't, by the way; I just hope to integrate these kinds of things into each child's life in a planned, cautious, responsible manner. Maybe that's too idealistic. Right now, I find life heavenly without these distractions.)

 

Something I've done to help 'quiet the mental noise' in our family is that when we're in the car (which we are quite often, since we live in the boonies and have to drive over an hour to get to lessons, etc.), I encourage the kids (who are clamoring for a story or music CD--more noise!) simply to think in silence....like "drop everything and read" time, only it's "drop everything and think" time. This idea garnered some quizzical looks from the kids at first, but now they're used to it...and it's really amazing to talk to them and find out what their minds were chewing on as we all sat silently. My personal opinion echoes that of other posters: our ancestors benefitted from the time they had to think about things--really think, I mean. That time has been robbed from us by our frenetic, noisy culture. Never a quiet moment...

 

Anyway, these ideas are simply my attempt at doing what may turn out to be impossible anyway. But, as my friend likes to say: "Better to shoot for the stars and hit a tree limb than to aim low and blow your toe off." :lol:

[brightside]

"Better to shoot for the stars and hit a tree limb than to aim low and blow your toe off."

 

 

I love this quote!!:lol:

[Julie Herbster]

"Better to shoot for the stars and hit a tree limb than to aim low and blow your toe off."

 

 

I love this quote!!:lol:

Me too. Wish I could take credit for it...I don't know where it came from, but my friend uses it all the time.

[Mama Lynx]

Stephanie-

I notice you have quite the list including TOG. I would definately keep TOG, but how do you implement the rest? Do I just add Latin to my list and call it a day?

Beth

 

I always end up having a lot of explaining to do about the TOG :)

 

TOG is meant to be the organizing force in a homeschool. It encompasses a great deal, and is meant to be the centerpiece; and this is how most families use the program.

 

I use it differently, however. I use Drew Campbell's philosophy as outlined in the Latin-Centered Curriculum as our focus. Our core subjects, for my older kids, are math, Latin, and writing ... and then through our co-op they are also doing Greek.

 

However, I also like to stick to a four-year history cycle (still doing classical studies every year), which is *not* part of Drew's plan for LCC. After we finished our grammar stage of history, I had a hard time finding something for the logic stage that worked well for us - we tried the TWTM way, but it didn't work well for my son.

 

And so I came to use TOG. We use it for history, for the wonderfully-organized reading and the fabulous discussion questions. We use some of the literature, and some of the geography - but that's it. And because of how we use it, it doesn't take huge chunks of our time.

 

So it's more of an add-on for us, than the meat and potatoes. Used in this way, the program might not be cost-effective for many; but my oldest is a history buff, and learning this way, with long, wonderful discussions, suits him very well. And TOG gives me all the information and answers so that I can have the meaningful discussion with him, without a lot of prep time for me.

 

So .... would you just add on Latin? I'm always a fan of adding in Latin :) If you're thinking about it, though, I recommend doing some reading about *why* to add Latin, and what you want out of it. Then you can get a better idea of whether it should be an add-on subject, or a more important subject. Read LCC, and see if it resonates with you.

 

HTH

[Peri]

I personally think that we allow our children to be immature way too long. I read this study that showed the brain develpoment of teens here in America and the brains of kids in some other country ( I don't remember where but it was a place where at a young age the kids were acting like adults). What the study showed was that the part of the brain that shows maturity is less developed here in America and at a very young age was developed in the other country. The theory that they came to was that this part of the brain develops as needed.

 

I also think that we have way too many distractions. There was no TV or radio so people were able to practice their story telling skills and develop them well. People also read more for the same reason.

[dragons in the flower bed]

 

So, the question is - how do we educate our children when our standard is that high?

 

Reading The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution gave me a thorough understanding of how we came to have colonies filled with people who think like that. Based on that reading, I will agree with the PP who suggested LCC. It was Greek and Latin and the specific Greek and Latin books those kids read. Incidentally, I understand that's part of what caused the Renaissance and Reformation, too.

 

Intuitively I also agree with the posters who suggested farm work. I think any real work could be substituted for farm work, though.

[yvonne]

Education was seen as a way out of such a life and those who had the opportunity to improve their lot (and that of their family) through education were generally quick and diligent to do so.

 

I guess it is just human nature. When there are no distractions and a tough life ahead, a person will be much more willing to devote themselves to something we consider "hard", especially in order to seek a more pleasant lifestyle.

 

:iagree:

 

 

Re: Maturity.

 

I don't know what the expectations are these days but, judging by the kids in our neighborhood, expectations have taken a nose-dive in the last two generations.

 

I think it's low expectations and less true, practical need today.

 

Our society is so entertainment driven today. "Aim for the stars," we say, but the "Stars" today are tv celebrities. "Heroes" is frequently used with "Sports Heroes." _Sports_ "heroes"????

 

Not so long ago, things people did really mattered. Life and death mattered. They mattered in terms of having an easier or harder life. If you didn't work, you might, literally, not eat. Families raised more of their own food. Each person in the family directly saw the pay off of his/her hard work and the family's collaborative work. Boys chopped wood to keep the homes warm. They helped with livestock, crops, ... helped keep the family safe. Girls made things that the family actually used, needed. Everyone _mattered_ and what each person did, made, learned, ... mattered.

 

What can young men (15 yo to ??) do today that truly matters? I see the high school "boys" going in and out of the high school nearby. They're not "boys" but the majority of them sure haven't taken on a more adult role, either. I don't know if they have the same opportunities to "matter." Yes, if they study, they may get a good education, but that payoff is in the distance... when they're out of school, in the workplace. Maybe. There's no short term obvious, practical payoff, and a better education may or may not pay off in the long run.

 

I wonder if we really just need to cut out the media

 

I don't think we would lose much by cutting out most media. Certainly video games and most commercial television. There are other, more useful and equally entertaining things to do.

 

But maybe video games and such are so popular/addictive because they are the only place young people, esp. boys, can turn for that immediate reinforcement that what they're doing matters. They might not be able to do anything of value, but they can still aim for that high score. :tongue_smilie:

 

Intuitively I also agree with the posters who suggested farm work. I think any real work could be substituted for farm work, though.

 

I agree!

 

 

Too simplified, I'm sure. I haven't thought it all the way through. But it does seem to me that people have to feel that they personally, and what they do, matter. They have to be able to _see_ how it matters. Within our own families, we can find ways for our children to do things that truly matter, but I don't know how we do that for all kids in society as a whole.

Edited December 29, 2009 by yvonne

[Mama Lynx]

Reading The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution gave me a thorough understanding of how we came to have colonies filled with people who think like that. Based on that reading, I will agree with the PP who suggested LCC. It was Greek and Latin and the specific Greek and Latin books those kids read. Incidentally, I understand that's part of what caused the Renaissance and Reformation, too.

 

Intuitively I also agree with the posters who suggested farm work. I think any real work could be substituted for farm work, though.

 

We are struggling with real work. We did not intend, at this point in our lives, to be where we are, in a rental house in the suburbs. We can send them to Grandpa's house for a few weeks in the summer - he lives in the middle of nowhere and they can chop firewood, help him build fences, etc. out there. But here?

 

I agree with the necessity of farm work or real, meaningful, preferably physical, work. How to get it in the 'burbs, though?

 

Helping out on Boy Scout Eagle projects is something we do, and that's good work, and physical, but too few and far between.

[Melenie]

Like PP said LCC is the closest thing that I have found.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Melenie

[lisamarie]

I have been grappling with this same idea this year. I am glad I found this thread. My kids are still young-6, 4, and 2-so I am at the beginning of training them. I want them to be well educated and mature by the time they leave my house. It really bugs me when I see early 20s kids still acting like children. I want to raise responsible kids who care about others, about their education and are capable of being leaders and can think for themselves and debate those with opposing viewpoints. The ideas already mentioned are good places to start for me.

 

For the area of giving kids meaningful work, we have come up with some ideas for our own kids that seem to be working despite us living in the suburbs. Not a lot of chances for any farm work, wood splitting, etc, around here.:tongue_smilie:

 

My DS6 is at a point where he needs work to do. He is very responsible and likes to do work, so it makes it easy. We live down the street from my parents, my Grandma, and my inlaws, so that makes it easier to find things for him to do. Some things we've come up with for him to do--he shovels our driveway when it's under 4 inches (over 4 and we use the snow blower) and he shovels my Grandma's and my parents' front porches. In the fall he is the leaf-raker (he also helps rake at my Grandmas and parents). In spring he helps with the garden-planting for all 3 of us, and in the summer he pulls weeds, picks up sticks, watering, etc. I regularly send him down to one of his grandmas to help them with chores. My focus with my DS is mostly physical work because he is very active and needs the heavy labor.

 

2 days ago when my DS was shoveling, I felt sorry for him and went out to help him. When I got outside, he told me, "Mom, I can handle it. Go back inside." My 6 year old may still seem like a baby to me, but he really is mature enough to handle more "grown up" work.

 

With my girls I let them help in all these areas as able, but I more focus on household chores. They don't have the same physical need for hard work like my DS. My DD4 helps with cooking, dishes, laundry, cleaning, and other things. She is always so proud to announce that she helped make dinner. My 2 year old is learning to pick up after herself and do simple chores (put something away for me, go get something, etc).

 

We also have a morning chores routine that I started last June. Every morning when they wake up they have to dress, make their bed, clean their rooms, brush their teeth and goto the bathroom. No breakfast until your morning chores are done. This has worked out well with them. Even my 2 year old picks up her room.

[Rosie_0801]

I agree with the necessity of farm work or real, meaningful, preferably physical, work. How to get it in the 'burbs, though?

 

I don't think farm work is particularly real to someone who doesn't live on a farm and while the opportunity to have a go at it is good and illuminating, it's not the real world unless you actually live there. The suburbs do have opportunities for real work. Changing washers, emptying the gutters and filling the radiator might not be so romantic, but they are still real jobs that need to be done.

 

Rosie

[akmyilee]

In response to the maturity issue of today's youth: I think it has to do with the attachment cycle. Mainstream America today seems to do it backward from 200 years ago. As as example, it seems very acceptable to seperate from our babies, they must go to the nursery or day care and "why are you carrying that baby around?" In the 1700's (and until about the 1950's) babies would have been with their mothers and would have been considered a baby for over a year. Then, though, when they started to understand things they would have been given responsiblities, small ones. Now, I think, we seperate from our babies, and treat our young children like they are incapible of doing anything.........and on and on.

 

I realize that I just made some over-generalizations, I know that things are different for every family, I am trying to make the distiction between 200 years ago and now.

 

The difference, goes far beyond the subjects that we (or the schools) are teaching. We live under a completely different paridymn or culture.

[akmyilee]

I don't think farm work is particularly real to someone who doesn't live on a farm and while the opportunity to have a go at it is good and illuminating, it's not the real world unless you actually live there. The suburbs do have opportunities for real work. Changing washers, emptying the gutters and filling the radiator might not be so romantic, but they are still real jobs that need to be done.

 

Rosie

 

Right and even in the 1700's there was more "work" to do, even the city kids (unless they were extreamly weathy and had servents) had to chop firewood, get water, wash laundry, and take care of livestock. We have our own sorts of these things in the city now, though they aren't going to be as time consuming as they were 200 years ago, thus, we have the time to watch TV or whatever.........

 

(this subject really intrests me, if you can't tell, sorry for the multible posts) :001_smile:

[Quiver0f10]

Do you think it's possible to step back from too much media? I have been feeling like my kids use it way too often and I'd like to step back, but is it too late? I miss the days before we had a TV and multiple computers.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Quiver0f10

[Quiver0f10]

We are struggling with real work. We did not intend, at this point in our lives, to be where we are, in a rental house in the suburbs.

 

I agree with the necessity of farm work or real, meaningful, preferably physical, work. How to get it in the 'burbs, though?.

 

This is a struggle with us too. My kids always had plenty of land to roam and explore. Now we live in a subdivision with a postage stamp yard.

[Sahamamama]

I wonder if we really just need to cut out the media - that would go over well:glare:. People back then, when they went to college, they were young teens, but really able to think college level work (even by our standards today). I think part of it was because middle age was around 20 years old, so you had to grow up fast and think marriage and career fairly quickly.

Beth

 

Beth, I've been musing about this myself lately. Our daughters are young (3, 3, & 5). My husband and I wonder, "How do we, on the one hand, direct them into maturity and noble adulthood, AND, on the other hand, NOT push careerism down their throats NOR bring them to believe that our goal is to get rid of them ASAP?" We want to be warm towards our children and let them know that they have a home here with us, yet at the same time, we want to bring them to maturity, instead of a long, drawn-out, and I think, boring adolescence.

 

I haven't figured it out! Here's a site that might have some food for thought.

 

http://www.familyministries.com/

 

See especially his resources about bringing your children to "early" (or timely) maturity. I don't know, I'm not sure I agree with it all, but it does get me thinking about the goal of childhood -- which is NOT to remain childish, but to become MATURE and NOBLE. We are not raising children, someone has said, we are raising women and men.

 

Here are some books that have helped us counsel parents with sons (they have given good feedback on these resources):

 

http://www.amazon.com/Created-Work-Practical-Insights-Young/dp/1883934117

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1883934095/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1883934117&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1Y739QRY4Z3HRYMBTV55

 

HTH. FWIW, we have no TV, no i-Pods, no cell phones, no Wii, no PS# -- or even LeapFrog, LOL. We are so technologically challenged. ;) Our girls are doing just fine! Even the twins (3) have daily chores (emptying trash cans & sweeping the kitchen floor -- it rotates). The oldest (5) vacuums & helps wash dishes. They all help fold & put away laundry. So, maybe they will be ready for adulthood at 20? I think it's a bit more complicated than just learning to match up socks. :001_huh:

 

:bigear:

 

Beth in New Jersey

[dragons in the flower bed]

I agree with the necessity of farm work or real, meaningful, preferably physical, work. How to get it in the 'burbs, though?

 

I'm with you through and through on that on that one. I have "where's my farm?" moments with some frequency.

 

I'm lucky to have a partner with a junk re-homing business. The children attend auctions, flea markets and yard sales with the daddio, usually one kid at a time. They lift (carry the auctioned item around the room so bidders can see it), bid on the family business' behalf in case my partner needs to be in another room (like in the case of 2 auctions in one location), work behind our table at the flea market, tote purchased items from the showroom to the truck and from the truck to the storage unit we use in lieu of a warehouse, and sort our stock in the storage unit into appropriate auction drops. Even though it's not a great money maker these days, I'm glad the children have the experience.

 

Before he junked, we were in the book resale business. It involved similar hauling and sorting duties, but the daddio had to scout for books. (Putting an ad in the paper -- will buy and haul away books -- worked.) We also were able to have kids price the books using bookfinder.com and a simple formula, and list the books on alibris.com, from about age nine and up.

 

I don't know what we would do if it weren't for that. I guess we'd look into yardsharing with much more interest, find a community garden, or attempt a dog walking or lawn mowing business.

[Julie in MN]

Final thought, I don't think that everyone from "back then" had it together. Remember the men who colonized Jamestown in the 1600s? Half of them were lazy to the point of death!

 

I think this is important to this conversation. In looking back many generations in my own and my husband's families, probably at least 50% of the men left, disappeared, were useless drunks, and so forth. Several older women relations have sadly confessed to having had secret and sometimes multiple abortions, adoptions, and children who didn't realize who their original parents were. There was abuse, rape, and mental illness.

 

If you read old published diaries, there are always the same complaints about young folk being lazy and nothing being as good as the old days.

 

I think we need to be careful to build what we want in our families within the culture we are placed in now, teaching kids to handle the temptations and difficulties they will truly wrestle with in their futures. I'm not sure it will help them to idealize about the past, using comparisons that may not be factual or helpful.

 

Other than that, I've found some good food for thought in this thread!

Julie

Edited December 29, 2009 by Julie in MN

[dragons in the flower bed]

We want to be warm towards our children and let them know that they have a home here with us, yet at the same time, we want to bring them to maturity, instead of a long, drawn-out, and I think, boring adolescence.

 

Sing while you do the chores together.

[angela in ohio]

Maturity: Every few months we listen to a CD by Dr. S M Davis called What to Expect of a 12 Year Old. It is an excellent way to "re-set" our course when we start feeling too wierd compared to those around us and are tempted to be swayed. He talks of the high expectations we should have for our young adult children, and he gives examples from history of 12-19 yos doing great things.

 

My daughters are 11 and 13, and they can run the house. They have a time or two when I have been sick or someone needed my help elsewhere. My little guy is 7, and he can do all of the outside work and cares for the chickens and pets. (The mommy in me wanted him to not go out in the freezing cold darkness these past few mornings, but I know it is best for him.) We do not have teenagers, adolescents, whatever here... we have young people who are taking advantage of every opportunity possible to train for their adult lives (and loving every minute of it.) They are happy, content children, because they know they are needed and that they are making progress.

 

Education: I also like this talk - Academic Standards - and other talks from CiRCE and ACCS, and also material by Andrew Pudeway (about raising the leaders of the next generation) and Reb Bradley (about raising mature children, linked by a PP,) for building goals that aren't based on just keeping up with the public schools. We don't know many people IRL with high educational goals, so these talks are a lifeline.

 

Not having much media has been a huge part of our dc's success academically, imho. They are avid readers and learners, and I think it has been because of (1.) a lack of other, more stimulating activities, (2.) role models of lifelong learners in dh and me, and (3.) many opportunities to learn - books, field trips, family trips, classes, conversations, etc.

 

Honestly, I think one of the biggest keys is this: less curriculum, more books, more discussion.

Edited December 29, 2009 by angela in ohio

[TracyP]

IMO there is no purpose for young people. My kids are 6 and under but I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I love this thread.

The message to kids seems to be "don't worry about the next stage of life - just be a kid." This message is being repeated until they are 25! Add the media influence on top of that and it is no wonder education seems so far down the list of priorities.

 

Now, what to do about it? I wish I knew.

[Mama Lynx]

::::Nodding::::: My 11 and 13 year old sons can, and do, keep the house picked up, vacuum, do laundry, do dishes, mow the lawn, and can cook.

 

(Actually, all of mine do those things, but the 11 and 13 year old can do it independently, whereas the 7 and 9 year olds still need to be managed.)

 

IN the house, and I think in our academics, we're set; it's beyond the house that is more difficult.

[bethben]

Here is my ultimate goal for my children. By the time they are 20, I want them to be able to know the direction they are going career wise (they know themselves and what their passions are), have the maturity to get married (not that I expect that), and be able to think well. By thinking well, if there is a pastor that's Biblically off, I want them to know he/she is wrong and why. I want them to be able to think for themselves and not just go along with the popular opinion if it's just wrong.

 

The problem is - I am exhausted to train them right now beyond the basics. I know it will get better - I guess I just need to know what to do when it does. I know a family with a bunch of boys that moved out into the country a bit so their boys could learn to be responsible. They take care of chickens and sheep while having their own vegetable garden where they sell the extras. That sounds great, but I just can't do it. Somehow, I have to find a solution that brings them to maturity while taking care of my special needs son and trying to get our adopted daughter all situated medically and emotionally. Maybe I just need to start at training them into more chores. Maybe I can just start there.

 

BEth

[Julie Herbster]

::::Nodding::::: My 11 and 13 year old sons can, and do, keep the house picked up, vacuum, do laundry, do dishes, mow the lawn, and can cook.

 

(Actually, all of mine do those things, but the 11 and 13 year old can do it independently, whereas the 7 and 9 year olds still need to be managed.)

 

IN the house, and I think in our academics, we're set; it's beyond the house that is more difficult.

 

This is great, Mama Lynx. There is great value in letting them gain these real-life skills! Our kids routinely make breakfast and lunch for themselves, and are pretty good about cleaning up afterwards. The three oldest (even the 7yo) can fix eggs any way ya want 'em, make pancakes, etc. Our two 'little girls' team up on cleaning and vacuuming out our Suburban--that's pretty hard work for them. Chores like the ones you've mentioned are just a given, of course; my 9yo ds cleans a mean toilet...I think our kids asked one time for an allowance/reimbursement for chores (must have heard this from their friends)...We told them that their reimbursement is that they get to live in a nice, clean and comfortable house. :) (Or, if you take what Laura Ingalls said about her childhood, she felt that by helping out her parents, she was actually 'paying' them for the home they had made for her.) But what do you all think? Do you ever pay your kids to do nitty-gritty jobs, so that they can save up for something they want to buy, or an event they want to attend?

[Melanie]

IN the house, and I think in our academics, we're set; it's beyond the house that is more difficult.

 

:iagree: Yes, it's the same way here. We have been fortunate to live within driving distance of the family farm for the last few years, but it's time for us to move again. (Just when they're getting old enough to be truly helpful, too!) We'll be living on Oahu. I was thinking about having them learn to sail, but after that I'm out of ideas.

[laughing lioness]

I think a lot of this has to do with intentionality. We believe that we aren't raising kids or adults we are raising eternal beings who were born in a specific time, in a specific place for a specific purpose. Not every believes that of course, but it's a guiding vision for us.

We've homeschooled for almost 2 decades now and our understanding of what education is and how to achieve it have changed,developed and grown as we have. The key, I think, is to find a guiding philosophy, get a vision for what it is you're trying to acheive and go for it. You can't do it all right now. We've gone through several "seasons" of homeschooling and the details and goals that we aim for changes with those seasons. But the guiding philosophy has stayed the same and we've been surprised by grace more than once on the journey.

Best homeschooling advice to rasing educated people: Start with the end in mind.

[angela in ohio]

By thinking well, if there is a pastor that's Biblically off, I want them to know he/she is wrong and why. I want them to be able to think for themselves and not just go along with the popular opinion if it's just wrong.

 

I would say:

 

(1.) For the right now, work on solid writing, speaking, reading, and math skills.

 

(2.) Down the road, move into a LOT of logic, rhetoric, and worldview study (which are dependent on the skills from #1.)

 

If you just think of it in steps, it is not so overwhelming. In the next year or so, start picking up logic and worldview (Starting Points, for example) books for yourself and dh to work through.

 

I don't think there is anything magical about farm life. Boys in the city can work just as hard. Any boy can rake leaves and mow lawns for the neighbors, move things, etc., etc. Start letting people know that you loan out your kids, and they will find jobs for them. We don't let dc charge people, we consider it a trade for the experience.

[tatertotschool]

 

Final thought, I don't think that everyone from "back then" had it together. Remember the men who colonized Jamestown in the 1600s? Half of them were lazy to the point of death!

 

I tend to agree, although I do believe that Jefferson, Washington, and particularly Franklin were bright men, they have the benefit of being alive during a time where history was written to make them look like great and wonderful Founding Fathers. Franklin was a horrible husband and father and I would rather my children be moral human beings than well educated.

[lisamarie]

Maturity: Every few months we listen to a CD by Dr. S M Davis called What to Expect of a 12 Year Old. It is an excellent way to "re-set" our course when we start feeling too wierd compared to those around us and are tempted to be swayed. He talks of the high expectations we should have for our young adult children, and he gives examples from history of 12-19 yos doing great things.

 

 

I'm not usually one for listening to random sermons but I decided to check this out. http://www.biblepreaching.com/davistwelve_mp3.html It was very informative and eye-opening to me. I have goals in mind for my kids but never thought of it in quite this way of all the things my kids should know, do, and be by the time they are 12. I have a lot of goals to map out now to help guide my DH and I in raising our kids.

 

Any advice on what you've done to get your kids where they are now?

[Paintedlady]

I tend to agree, although I do believe that Jefferson, Washington, and particularly Franklin were bright men, they have the benefit of being alive during a time where history was written to make them look like great and wonderful Founding Fathers. Franklin was a horrible husband and father and I would rather my children be moral human beings than well educated.

 

Of the three, only Jefferson was well educated. He could read Latin and Greek and had the most extensive library of the day. His father, although not classically trained, made sure his son was.

 

Franklin was particulary bright, I would agree, but he also had something extra--a curiosity and hunger for knowledge and a particular drive to improve not only himself but the society around him. I agree he was not a great husband. His autobiography is wonderful if you haven't read it. He was a very complicated and interesting man.

 

Washington wasn't/isn't considered particularly bright, but had the (correct) notion that his silence couldn't trip him up. He was skillful instead of well educated, and he felt inferior in many ways because of it. He was a wonderful horseman and had a commanding presence. He was tall and a sharp dresser. But I think most important is he knew what he didn't know and found the people to advise him that did know. He adored Hamilton and Madison b/c their advice was often spot on.

[Lovedtodeath]

Hmmm... I asked a similar question and was told that back then priveledged boys were in school from about 7 AM to 5 PM.

[Jill- OK]

Have you read "A Thomas Jefferson Education" by Oliver DeMille? It was not a model that would work with my family, but the whole idea formulated with that book was educating a child in the same manner as the founding fathers.

 

We got an American Girl companion book from the library, some time ago, about the 1700s. In it, there was a list from Thomas Jefferson to his...daughter? I think?...detailing what he felt was a good course of study for her day. (This is a fairly young child.)

 

Dudes...it was full of stuff, lol! Almost the entire day was parent-directed, and pretty seriously focused. (And many folks didn't believe that girls needed to be educated to the extent that boys did, although Thomas Jefferson might have been someone who advocated differently.)

 

I liked many things about ATJE, and I certainly value a child being self-motivated, and I'm probably more apt to let kids direct portions of their education than many who espouse a form of classical education, but I always feel the need to bring this up when someone mentions ATJE, and it's premise that what they're describing was how Thomas Jefferson educated himself, or how Founding Father types were educated.

 

I think it's misleading.

 

My personal take (which is probably not as informed as many who have studied historical figures from that time in depth) is that educations ran the gamut back then, much like they do now; some people could afford to be tutored and sent to the best schools of the time, as children, and others waited until adulthood. (Wasn't there one president that didn't learn to read until he was seventeen?)

 

The difference, I think, comes from a society that didn't have television (although they did find ways to waste time, even then), and was extremely literate, when folks were literate at all. (You read Shakespeare, Euclid, etc. once you learned to read.)

 

I think that the people who advocate learning Latin and Greek are definitely following a part of what was considered important, "back then", but the thing that I tend to focus on is the reading of classics. Books of value and meaning that have stood the test of time, and have informed minds for centuries.

 

Big ideas. That's what I think makes for a "classical" education, which is what I think we're talking about, to an extent.

 

(Please don't take this as an argument against the suggestion to read ATJE; I think it's got some good points, and there are things I do that look similar to some of their suggestions. I just think that with regards to the OP's question about how education was directed back then, ATJE is somewhat misleading.)

[Mama Lynx]

I think you're right, Jill. I think ATJE takes one small part of Jefferson's education, and attempts to make it the whole.

 

That small part is good, and important; but what ATJE overlooks is important, too.

[LibraryLover]

At that time, many children of the wealthy were sent to England to be educated. George Washington lost his father as a child, so there was no money to send him, but his older brothers were educated in Britain. Interestingly, Washington started his schooling as an older child, and finished school at age 16. He never even learned a language other than English. Nope, that means he did not speak Latin. He probably learned some Latin as a Mason. :D George was pretty much an unschooler.

 

Now Jefferson, different story. He did study Latin and Greek as a very small boy, and in the US.

[Jill- OK]

I think we need to be careful to build what we want in our families within the culture we are placed in now, teaching kids to handle the temptations and difficulties they will truly wrestle with in their futures. I'm not sure it will help them to idealize about the past, using comparisons that may not be factual or helpful.

 

:iagree:

 

...but I think there's a balance to be struck, between thriving in this culture/time period, and looking back to things that have stood the test of time, and hanging on to those.

 

I agree that we live in the 21st century, and we need to equip our children to be the best citizens of this time and place.

 

But I think that much of that comes from looking to the past.

 

"Classics" are books/ideas/practices that have proven valuable, throughout centuries, and part of my leaning towards classical education comes from a belief that perpetuating good ideas is...well, a good idea. :001_smile:

 

At the same time, I don't feel totally right about forbidding my kids from watching TV, playing video games, etc. I don't care for a lifestyle focused too heavily on that sort of stuff, but some of it is actually useful.

 

Homeschoolers do seem more prone to idealize the past, and while I don't think that's productive, I do think it's important to try and preserve things/ideas/practices that are worthwhile, especially if they've fallen out of favor, and are in danger of becoming extinct.

 

In other words, I don't want to build tiny Thomas Jeffersons, or live like Ma Ingalls, lol, but I do want to hold on to a tiny bit of what they did. The part that will make life now "better".

[LibraryLover]

Washington also had the good sense to fall and love with, and marry, the wealthiest widow in Virgina.

 

 

Of the three, only Jefferson was well educated. He could read Latin and Greek and had the most extensive library of the day. His father, although not classically trained, made sure his son was.

 

Franklin was particulary bright, I would agree, but he also had something extra--a curiosity and hunger for knowledge and a particular drive to improve not only himself but the society around him. I agree he was not a great husband. His autobiography is wonderful if you haven't read it. He was a very complicated and interesting man.

 

Washington wasn't/isn't considered particularly bright, but had the (correct) notion that his silence couldn't trip him up. He was skillful instead of well educated, and he felt inferior in many ways because of it. He was a wonderful horseman and had a commanding presence. He was tall and a sharp dresser. But I think most important is he knew what he didn't know and found the people to advise him that did know. He adored Hamilton and Madison b/c their advice was often spot on.

[Julie in MN]

...but I think there's a balance to be struck, between thriving in this culture/time period, and looking back to things that have stood the test of time, and hanging on to those.

 

I agree that we live in the 21st century, and we need to equip our children to be the best citizens of this time and place.

 

But I think that much of that comes from looking to the past.

 

"Classics" are books/ideas/practices that have proven valuable, throughout centuries, and part of my leaning towards classical education comes from a belief that perpetuating good ideas is...well, a good idea. :001_smile:

 

At the same time, I don't feel totally right about forbidding my kids from watching TV, playing video games, etc. I don't care for a lifestyle focused too heavily on that sort of stuff, but some of it is actually useful.

 

Homeschoolers do seem more prone to idealize the past, and while I don't think that's productive, I do think it's important to try and preserve things/ideas/practices that are worthwhile, especially if they've fallen out of favor, and are in danger of becoming extinct.

 

In other words, I don't want to build tiny Thomas Jeffersons, or live like Ma Ingalls, lol, but I do want to hold on to a tiny bit of what they did. The part that will make life now "better".

 

I wrote the original quote, but your point is well taken, too. What a balancing act we are undertaking!

Julie

[Paintedlady]

Washington also had the good sense to fall and love with, and marry, the wealthiest widow in Virgina.

 

:iagree: And Jefferson did as well.

[Makita]

We got an American Girl companion book from the library, some time ago, about the 1700s. In it, there was a list from Thomas Jefferson to his...daughter? I think?...detailing what he felt was a good course of study for her day.

 

What is the title? Do you have a link to this so I can potentially find it at our library?

 

Thanks!