I finished reading the blog that inspired the submission poll.........

[Lovedtodeath]

I thought of that but if you look at the preceding verses in Matthew 19 this is the answer to the question "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" so that is why "wife" is used in the answer.

Yes, and it shows further that Jesus was talking to these specific people, answering their specific question with the understanding of why they were asking it. I am wondering why we take the meaning legalistically word for word instead of applying the principle (do not divorce for unimportant reasons). It is very hard for me, knowing God's personality of love and justice to accept that when Jesus said this he was telling people that they had to either put up with abuse or remain alone (and be punished) instead of moving on to a happier life.

 

I do understand the principle behind it, and that perhaps is why it is treated legalistically. I was a wife who "cried abuse" and after we both worked on our marriage, we were able to remedy the situation and become happy together. If I had filed for divorce, though, we probably would have had the same outcome because he would have been shocked into making changes.

 

This scripture is something I think about often. A good friend of mine is no longer a Christian and has been bitter for years because of the lack of support that she received when divorcing her abusive husband.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[keptwoman]

Research, anecdotal and real experience proves that pedophiles don't rehabilitate. I do believe that through God all things are possible (being one of those addicts you mentioned earlier). But I believe through God all things to the willing are possible. Pedophiles are not willing.

My real life experience tells me sometimes they are willing and sometimes they do repent.

 

Now I still wouldn't trust them. I think that rehabilitation can happen but it's not CURE it's rehabilitation. There's a big difference. It's like an alcoholic. They may learn to live without alcohol but they should still avoid it. You'd have to be monumentally stupid to ever trust a person like that with your children but that's for the protection of both parties.

 

There is no way in hell I'd ever stay married to a man who did that.... the mere thought of laying beside a man like that in the bed makes me want to hurl. But I do believe that they SOMETIMES do understand the hurt they have caused and repent it.

 

Now I realise that some will vehemently disagree with me because of their own personal experience. But that's personal experience isn't it; everyone's is different.

[smrtmama]

The Pearls sicken me.

[lionfamily1999]

Research, anecdotal and real experience proves that pedophiles don't rehabilitate. I do believe that through God all things are possible (being one of those addicts you mentioned earlier). But I believe through God all things to the willing are possible. Pedophiles are not willing.

I see.

Only God knows for certain whether an individual has truly repented in his/her heart. I do strongly believe that no sin is too horrendous for God to forgive IF the sinner repents. Given the uncertainty, I strongly believe a wife is justified in seeking legal separation from an abusive husband.

I guess you could only really figure it out through God and spiritual discernment. Prayer prayer prayer.

My real life experience tells me sometimes they are willing and sometimes they do repent.

 

Strangely, after I posted the initial question it occured to me that I know someone that molested a young family member, they repented and (obviously) I had forgotten all about it. The person in question was a pre-teen at the time and I think that may have something to do with my having forgotten, but I guess I do know someone that really and truly repented.

 

Wierd... I'd lived my question and didn't even realize it.

[OnTheBrink]

While forgiveness is absolutely biblical, it doesn't mean you have to trust or be around the person. If someone hurt my dd, I'd do all I could to throw their sinful, evil selves in jail. But, I know I'd forgive them because I'd have to for my own sanity. BUT, that sure doesn't mean they'd ever have the chance to be around my dd or me again.

 

Matthew 10:16: Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.

[Scarlett]

Wierd... I'd lived my question and didn't even realize it.

 

This happens to all of us. We live and learn and we gain compassion. Compassion does not equal trust. My best friend's Xhusband was a horrible lying cheater during the last several years of their marriage. He appears to have stopped that behavior....He is remarried, sought counseling...I have compassion for him, I've forgiven him...but will I EVER trust him? No. Never. His salvation is between him and God. Me trusting him or not has no affect on that.

[justamouse]

I have never heard of the Pearls before reading that, and...I have nothing to say I am so disgusted.

[elegantlion]

While forgiveness is absolutely biblical, it doesn't mean you have to trust or be around the person. If someone hurt my dd, I'd do all I could to throw their sinful, evil selves in jail. But, I know I'd forgive them because I'd have to for my own sanity. BUT, that sure doesn't mean they'd ever have the chance to be around my dd or me again.

 

Matthew 10:16: Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.

 

:iagree: There are also consequences to our actions. Sometimes the consequence is that the abuser loses his family. We give our children consequences when they do wrong. Why? Because we love them and want them to learn from their mistakes. Why would *we* allow an abuser to live without learning from their mistakes?

[lionfamily1999]

:iagree: There are also consequences to our actions. Sometimes the consequence is that the abuser loses his family. We give our children consequences when they do wrong. Why? Because we love them and want them to learn from their mistakes. Why would *we* allow an abuser to live without learning from their mistakes?

Okay, I can see consequences.

 

Yes, bingo, there goes the lightbulb.

 

Consequences, from love, can be harsh and long term. I suppose that a person COULD balance the love for Christ (thus the love for the sinner, even one of such gross proportions) with a loving desire to help them maintain their repentenance by removing any obstacles that could lead them back to that temptation, ie children. I suppose the basis I was missing was the love that needs to be involved.

 

Thanks, all of you, for working on my wiring and getting my brain straight :) :grouphug:

[Sputterduck]

My personal opinion on child molesters is that once an adult has given himself over to satan so thoroughly that he would sexually abuse a child, he is completely outside the realm of God and God just leaves him to his filth. I do think there is a scripture about God leaving people to their debaseness and just letting them go basically, due to their own choices.

 

People come back from everything bad to God, but it seems that child molesters who are adults when they commit these acts never do recover. Why is that? I think it is just so low that they are gone. There is nothing in them to save.

[Sputterduck]

My real life experience tells me sometimes they are willing and sometimes they do repent.

 

Now I still wouldn't trust them. I think that rehabilitation can happen but it's not CURE it's rehabilitation. There's a big difference. It's like an alcoholic. They may learn to live without alcohol but they should still avoid it. You'd have to be monumentally stupid to ever trust a person like that with your children but that's for the protection of both parties.

 

There is no way in hell I'd ever stay married to a man who did that.... the mere thought of laying beside a man like that in the bed makes me want to hurl. But I do believe that they SOMETIMES do understand the hurt they have caused and repent it.

 

Now I realise that some will vehemently disagree with me because of their own personal experience. But that's personal experience isn't it; everyone's is different.

 

Having sex with children is not a disease.

[keptwoman]

Having sex with children is not a disease.

 

I realise that comparing it to alcoholism may seem a stretch for some because alcohol is neither morally repugnant nor illegal. But in many ways the affect of "rehabilitation" is comparable. An alcoholic or a pediphile will never be cured but they can be rehabilitated to avoid it. Of course the consequences of relapse are just not even in the same stratosphere so please don't think I'm putting them on a level. I'm just trying to come up with a metaphore for rehabilitation that makes some degree of logical sense.

 

As I said in my post. Many people will disagree with me but that has been my PERSONAL experience as far as my involvement with someone I know going through a rehabilitation program for this matter. Trust me... doesn't mean I trust him with my children!!!! or even like him very much; he makes me rather ill actually. But I do know that he continues to do what is needed to avoid offending again. Part of that is not putting himself in a situation where offending could occur. Hence my lack of trust... for the protection of both parties.

Edited November 22, 2009 by keptwoman

[Erica in PA]

You can, actually. Sorting through information to take what appeals and discard what doesn't is quite normal. We do that sort of thing every day. Good advice is good advice even if it comes from a less than reputable source. It isn't about trusting what the guy says, it's about reading what he says and comparing it to your own thoughts. I don't think the horoscopes in the paper are reputable sources, but if I happen to be reading mine and it says something about family arguments, I take that as a reminder to focus my attention on family dynamics. Not because the stars are aligned against us and thank goodness those horoscope writing people are here to interpret them and save us, but because family harmony is important and deserves attention. Likewise, if this Pearl guy writes an essay on the importance of table manners, I'm going to agree with him, even if I think he's a nutter. I don't have to follow all his methods of teaching table manners, if I think they are crazy, but crazy people are capable of good ideas.

 

People should be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

Rosie

 

As a Christian, though, we are commanded to steer clear of false teachers. The Bible doesn't teach us to listen to them and sift through it all to get the good stuff. Imo, people like the Pearls are false teachers, spreading false teachings and interpretations of God's Word.

 

There are lots of honest Christians out there who I may disagree with on particular issues, but whom I would not label a "false teacher." In those cases, I would sort the wheat from the chaff in their writings. But what the Pearls write is so perverted and vile, and imo, wicked, I believe they should be completely avoided.

[Erica in PA]

There are plenty of parenting, theological, and educational authors I don't completely agree with; some I even disagree with often. I can still separate the wheat/chaff and glean something useful. I understand the concept and do read beyond my comfort zone.

 

But to glean something useful from abuse perpetrating, abuse supporting cultish authors? Um. No.

 

Ha, I should have just read your post before posting above! I just said that same thing, in a slightly different way.

[Erica in PA]

Michael Pearl: "But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn’t repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception."

 

Shocking, horrible, sickening. I'm sure those grown children who were molested will just LOVE seeing Mommy love up to their rapist when he gets out of jail. Any woman who can willingly accept physical intimacy from a man, knowing that he forced those same acts upon her own child.... I just have no words for that, nor for a man like Michael Pearl who would advocate it. There is something very wrong with him if he thinks that glorifies God, while divorcing a pervert who raped your child is evil.

[Scarlett]

Shocking, horrible, sickening. I'm sure those grown children who were molested will just LOVE seeing Mommy love up to their rapist when he gets out of jail. Any woman who can willingly accept physical intimacy from a man, knowing that he forced those same acts upon her own child.... I just have no words for that, nor for a man like Michael Pearl who would advocate it. There is something very wrong with him if he thinks that glorifies God, while divorcing a pervert who raped your child is evil.

 

I agree. Sickening.

[amy g.]

I'm with Erica on that one.

[lakotajm]

Wait ..... whoa .... sputter. .... some people actually read this and still support/follows this guy??? I just ..... no' date=' it can't be possible. It CAN"T!! What is the matter with people!?!?!?

 

Sigh ... perhaps I will be able to formulate a well thought out response to this inane quote later, but right now I am having a very visceral reaction to the idea that people read this stuff and "love it"!![/quote']

 

OK, now, I have read some of the Pearl's stuff and like 2/3 of it. I am only 1/3 of the way through Created to be His Helpmeet. I haven't yet read this supposed quote, but here are my thoughts on it. (This is coming from someone whose stepfather used to paddle harshly, leaving marks that sometimes lasted more than 2 hours-not a fond remembrance.)

 

They are presupposing two primary truths about family and forgiveness:

 

Wives are to put their relationship with their husband above the relationship with their children because it is designed to be permanent and she is merely the guidance and support for the formative years of her children, at which point, they are then individuals, responsible for themselves; separate. We tend to be child worshipers in our culture.

 

What was the conversation Jesus had with Peter (I think it was he?) about forgiveness? How many times do we forgive? Did Jesus then qualify his answer with-"except if he has molested a child?" Or "except if he has hit his wife?" Or we might as well inject our favorite cause for hate and stubborn refusal to forgive. Ever stop to think about what life must be like for the human being (and yes they are still a human being, loved by God) who commits such horrible crimes and who is then truly repentant and turns towards God, but has no one willing to help guide him, believe him, shelter him, employ him, etc. because we are Sunday Christians who like to claim we follow the Bible but when it gets difficult, forget it!

 

Notice Mr. Pearl did say that he first expects the wife to insure her children's safety-maybe by sending them to live with grandparents? (This one is a little iffy-I think the man is the one who should move out-go to the Rescue Mission to live.) Notice too, that if he serves time, (he figures 10-20 years, though that is unlikely) Mr. Pearl presumes the children would be grown and out of the home when the wife then welcomes her husband back. Would the children feel betrayed? Yes. Is it really their call? No. Again, her primary job requirements have been fulfilled as far as they are concerned. If she is trying to fulfill the commandments of the Bible regarding forgiveness, then I would at least respect that. At least she is trying to do the right thing according to her beliefs. Now, I would not let any grandkids visit, but that's another story. You can be forgiving, but there's no requirement to tempt the man to sin again and put your kids in harms way.

 

Now I don't agree with some of the hitting notions that the Pearl's seem to advocate-the marks that fade..it's still a mark. What is a Christian doing leaving marks? I know?! But forgiveness? Yes. Have I ever left a mark on my child (a handprint, perhaps, on a butt cheek-faded within 2 hours)? Yes. Was I sorry? Yes. Did I receive God's forgiveness? Yes.

Should I not have? You all have left me thinking that you get to be the judges of who gets forgiven and who doesn't.

 

Now, if my husband molested my kids, his a** would be gone. But I would definitely make it a goal to try to find it within my heart, at some time before I left this earth, to forgive him.

 

My very long two cents.

 

Lakota

[Erica in PA]

OK, now, I have read some of the Pearl's stuff and like 2/3 of it. I am only 1/3 of the way through Created to be His Helpmeet. I haven't yet read this supposed quote, but here are my thoughts on it. (This is coming from someone whose stepfather used to paddle harshly, leaving marks that sometimes lasted more than 2 hours-not a fond remembrance.)

 

They are presupposing two primary truths about family and forgiveness:

 

Wives are to put their relationship with their husband above the relationship with their children because it is designed to be permanent and she is merely the guidance and support for the formative years of her children, at which point, they are then individuals, responsible for themselves; separate. We tend to be child worshipers in our culture.

 

What was the conversation Jesus had with Peter (I think it was he?) about forgiveness? How many times do we forgive? Did Jesus then qualify his answer with-"except if he has molested a child?" Or "except if he has hit his wife?" Or we might as well inject our favorite cause for hate and stubborn refusal to forgive. Ever stop to think about what life must be like for the human being (and yes they are still a human being, loved by God) who commits such horrible crimes and who is then truly repentant and turns towards God, but has no one willing to help guide him, believe him, shelter him, employ him, etc. because we are Sunday Christians who like to claim we follow the Bible but when it gets difficult, forget it!

 

Notice Mr. Pearl did say that he first expects the wife to insure her children's safety-maybe by sending them to live with grandparents? (This one is a little iffy-I think the man is the one who should move out-go to the Rescue Mission to live.) Notice too, that if he serves time, (he figures 10-20 years, though that is unlikely) Mr. Pearl presumes the children would be grown and out of the home when the wife then welcomes her husband back. Would the children feel betrayed? Yes. Is it really their call? No. Again, her primary job requirements have been fulfilled as far as they are concerned. If she is trying to fulfill the commandments of the Bible regarding forgiveness, then I would at least respect that. At least she is trying to do the right thing according to her beliefs. Now, I would not let any grandkids visit, but that's another story. You can be forgiving, but there's no requirement to tempt the man to sin again and put your kids in harms way.

 

Now I don't agree with some of the hitting notions that the Pearl's seem to advocate-the marks that fade..it's still a mark. What is a Christian doing leaving marks? I know?! But forgiveness? Yes. Have I ever left a mark on my child (a handprint, perhaps, on a butt cheek-faded within 2 hours)? Yes. Was I sorry? Yes. Did I receive God's forgiveness? Yes.

Should I not have? You all have left me thinking that you get to be the judges of who gets forgiven and who doesn't.

 

Now, if my husband molested my kids, his a** would be gone. But I would definitely make it a goal to try to find it within my heart, at some time before I left this earth, to forgive him.

 

My very long two cents.

 

Lakota

 

As you noted in your last paragraph, forgiving and going back to the same relationship are two different things. The Pearls advocate the latter, and that is just one reason why so many people have problems with them.

 

I also think that there's only a certain degree to which you can forgive heinous acts that were committed against someone else. I could forgive someone who attacked me, much more easily than I could forgive someone who attacked my child. It's up to that child to forgive. And so, for me to run and throw my arms around their attacker, sharing my love and forgiveness, seems very unkind and unloving to the person that was most sinned against, the child. Part of a parent's job is to protect her child, and that means emotionally as well as physically. While a woman may protect her child physically by sending her husband to jail until her child is grown (though how often does that even happen?), she harms her child emotionally by going back to a romantic relationship with his/ her abuser.

 

Imo, it's perfectly acceptable to say, "I have forgiven my husband for the ways in which he sinned against *me,* and let go of all my hard feelings toward him for being unfaithful to me, but his actions toward my child are such that it would deeply harm him/her for me to ever be romantically involved with him again, so reconciliation is not possible." The Pearls don't suggest that though, instead he points out how much God loves reconcilation, and hates divorce.

[mominbc]

OK, now, I have read some of the Pearl's stuff and like 2/3 of it. I am only 1/3 of the way through Created to be His Helpmeet. I haven't yet read this supposed quote, but here are my thoughts on it. (This is coming from someone whose stepfather used to paddle harshly, leaving marks that sometimes lasted more than 2 hours-not a fond remembrance.)

 

They are presupposing two primary truths about family and forgiveness:

 

Wives are to put their relationship with their husband above the relationship with their children because it is designed to be permanent and she is merely the guidance and support for the formative years of her children, at which point, they are then individuals, responsible for themselves; separate. We tend to be child worshipers in our culture.

 

What was the conversation Jesus had with Peter (I think it was he?) about forgiveness? How many times do we forgive? Did Jesus then qualify his answer with-"except if he has molested a child?" Or "except if he has hit his wife?" Or we might as well inject our favorite cause for hate and stubborn refusal to forgive. Ever stop to think about what life must be like for the human being (and yes they are still a human being, loved by God) who commits such horrible crimes and who is then truly repentant and turns towards God, but has no one willing to help guide him, believe him, shelter him, employ him, etc. because we are Sunday Christians who like to claim we follow the Bible but when it gets difficult, forget it!

 

Notice Mr. Pearl did say that he first expects the wife to insure her children's safety-maybe by sending them to live with grandparents? (This one is a little iffy-I think the man is the one who should move out-go to the Rescue Mission to live.) Notice too, that if he serves time, (he figures 10-20 years, though that is unlikely) Mr. Pearl presumes the children would be grown and out of the home when the wife then welcomes her husband back. Would the children feel betrayed? Yes. Is it really their call? No. Again, her primary job requirements have been fulfilled as far as they are concerned. If she is trying to fulfill the commandments of the Bible regarding forgiveness, then I would at least respect that. At least she is trying to do the right thing according to her beliefs. Now, I would not let any grandkids visit, but that's another story. You can be forgiving, but there's no requirement to tempt the man to sin again and put your kids in harms way.

 

Now I don't agree with some of the hitting notions that the Pearl's seem to advocate-the marks that fade..it's still a mark. What is a Christian doing leaving marks? I know?! But forgiveness? Yes. Have I ever left a mark on my child (a handprint, perhaps, on a butt cheek-faded within 2 hours)? Yes. Was I sorry? Yes. Did I receive God's forgiveness? Yes.

Should I not have? You all have left me thinking that you get to be the judges of who gets forgiven and who doesn't.

 

Now, if my husband molested my kids, his a** would be gone. But I would definitely make it a goal to try to find it within my heart, at some time before I left this earth, to forgive him.

 

My very long two cents.

 

Lakota

 

Again, this has nothing to do with forgiveness. This is about consequences.

[Sputterduck]

Again, this has nothing to do with forgiveness. This is about consequences.

 

 

Thank you for saying this. I was a little stunned at lakotajm's post and didn't know what to say.

[Impish]

OK, now, I have read some of the Pearl's stuff and like 2/3 of it. I am only 1/3 of the way through Created to be His Helpmeet. I haven't yet read this supposed quote, but here are my thoughts on it. (This is coming from someone whose stepfather used to paddle harshly, leaving marks that sometimes lasted more than 2 hours-not a fond remembrance.)

 

They are presupposing two primary truths about family and forgiveness:

 

Wives are to put their relationship with their husband above the relationship with their children because it is designed to be permanent and she is merely the guidance and support for the formative years of her children, at which point, they are then individuals, responsible for themselves; separate. We tend to be child worshipers in our culture.

 

What was the conversation Jesus had with Peter (I think it was he?) about forgiveness? How many times do we forgive? Did Jesus then qualify his answer with-"except if he has molested a child?" Or "except if he has hit his wife?" Or we might as well inject our favorite cause for hate and stubborn refusal to forgive. Ever stop to think about what life must be like for the human being (and yes they are still a human being, loved by God) who commits such horrible crimes and who is then truly repentant and turns towards God, but has no one willing to help guide him, believe him, shelter him, employ him, etc. because we are Sunday Christians who like to claim we follow the Bible but when it gets difficult, forget it!

 

Notice Mr. Pearl did say that he first expects the wife to insure her children's safety-maybe by sending them to live with grandparents? (This one is a little iffy-I think the man is the one who should move out-go to the Rescue Mission to live.) Notice too, that if he serves time, (he figures 10-20 years, though that is unlikely) Mr. Pearl presumes the children would be grown and out of the home when the wife then welcomes her husband back. Would the children feel betrayed? Yes. Is it really their call? No. Again, her primary job requirements have been fulfilled as far as they are concerned. If she is trying to fulfill the commandments of the Bible regarding forgiveness, then I would at least respect that. At least she is trying to do the right thing according to her beliefs. Now, I would not let any grandkids visit, but that's another story. You can be forgiving, but there's no requirement to tempt the man to sin again and put your kids in harms way.

 

Now I don't agree with some of the hitting notions that the Pearl's seem to advocate-the marks that fade..it's still a mark. What is a Christian doing leaving marks? I know?! But forgiveness? Yes. Have I ever left a mark on my child (a handprint, perhaps, on a butt cheek-faded within 2 hours)? Yes. Was I sorry? Yes. Did I receive God's forgiveness? Yes.

Should I not have? You all have left me thinking that you get to be the judges of who gets forgiven and who doesn't.

 

Now, if my husband molested my kids, his a** would be gone. But I would definitely make it a goal to try to find it within my heart, at some time before I left this earth, to forgive him.

 

My very long two cents.

 

Lakota

As I shared earlier in the thread, Wolf's uncle molested his daughters, and his wife stood by him when it came out. He served less than a year in prison, as per plea deal. Their daughters will have nothing to do with either one of them, and will not allow their mother to visit their children under any circumstances. Her choosing their abuser over them killed their relationship.

 

My MIL then foisted him on their senile sister, despite the fact that before the sister became senile, she loathed her brother, and doesn't understand why we wouldn't welcome him to visit our family, or why Wolf was angry that she gave copies of our children's pics to him.

 

Frankly, the Pearl's take on child molestation and wife beating makes me wonder about their family. :001_huh:

[mominbc]

Frankly, the Pearl's take on child molestation and wife beating makes me wonder about their family. :001_huh:

 

 

That's exactly what my husband said!

[Nestof3]

ahh -- just forget it

Edited November 22, 2009 by nestof3

[katemary63]

There are plenty of parenting, theological, and educational authors I don't completely agree with; some I even disagree with often. I can still separate the wheat/chaff and glean something useful. I understand the concept and do read beyond my comfort zone.

 

But to glean something useful from abuse perpetrating, abuse supporting cultish authors? Um. No.

 

:iagree:

[coffeefreak]

 

Yes, it's an very human and common behavioral experience to go to another extreme (cultish faith to no claimed faith). I suspect many of these persons will eventually, after processing, find some spirituality that fits them.

 

:iagree:

We did and we are at perfect peace with our Lord. Like I said, she spoke to me. I lived a lot of her stories. The only reason we don't have more children is, we couldn't. That was a death sentence in those circles. I was at fault, my husband was at fault (like I had control over my dysfunctional uterus), we must have sinned etc. Hearing someone else's story has literally saved our marriage. We have been more open about the hurts and the misguided beliefs then ever. It's very freeing and I was so glad she had her blog.

 

As for the Pearls, I found my old copy of "Helpmeet" and threw it out when we moved last year. We had long since stopped getting their magazine and updates. Up until a week ago, I was just walking around feeling stupid. now, I feel empowered and healed.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[katemary63]

The person in question was a pre-teen at the time

 

This doesn't really "count". A pre-tean molesting another child would not be considered a pedophile.

[coffeefreak]

Joanne, I'm pretty sure I know where you'll stand on this, but I'm curious and sometimes find your answers spur my thinking to a different direction.

 

Please note, I don't even know where I stand on this right now, just in a vague unsure confused sort of place...

 

As Christians we have a responsibility to forgive. I've known Christians, and been one myself, who have jumped for joy knowing that someone who had done truly terrible things found redemption and salvation. A gang leader, guilty of the murders of many people and the ****ation of many more, moves to Christ and my thought is, praise God! A theif, a drug addict, a prostitute, they accept Christ, they change and it's pretty easy, ime, to celebrate their change.

 

Now, we get to those that victimized children and I find a general abhorence, an idea of 'it doesn't matter, YOU can go to h***.' This is what stumps me. I could not imagine forgiving someone of that, not even if they did it to someone I didn't even know, not even if I only knew they'd done it, because they were on the sex offender list. I could not imagine opening my arms (shudder) to them, not to mention my church, my home!

 

How is this Christian behavior though? I can't imagine Christ accepting them!

 

Basically, what I want is scripture that says, those people should just be left to rot. Please.

 

I don't know if there's a scripture that says that, but I do know that just because we're called to forgive does NOT mean we're called to go back into the situation, or be around that person. And, I also know that forgiveness is not a feeling. I think it's more about how we're to treat the offender (meaning we're not to retaliate). I personally think they spend the rest of their lives in jail.

 

Going to look for NT scripture now! OT law said they were to be stoned, right?

Dorinda

[katemary63]

Thank you for saying this. I was a little stunned at lakotajm's post and didn't know what to say.

 

:iagree::iagree: Yes, stunned. I'm sorry lakotahm, but you are just not seeing things clearly IMO. A mother, returning to a romantic relationship with that child's sexual abuser would be nothing short of aditional emotional abuse to the child - EVEN IF THAT CHILD IS GROWN. A MOTHER could never do such a thing....NEVER. If she can, she is something else entirely. If you don't understand this.....ah....I'm sorry, hopefully, some day you will.

[keptwoman]

:iagree::iagree: Yes, stunned. I'm sorry lakotahm, but you are just not seeing things clearly IMO. A mother, returning to a romantic relationship with that child's sexual abuser would be nothing short of aditional emotional abuse to the child - EVEN IF THAT CHILD IS GROWN. A MOTHER could never do such a thing....NEVER. If she can, she is something else entirely. If you don't understand this.....ah....I'm sorry, hopefully, some day you will.

:iagree:

[mominbc]

:iagree::iagree: Yes, stunned. I'm sorry lakotahm, but you are just not seeing things clearly IMO. A mother, returning to a romantic relationship with that child's sexual abuser would be nothing short of aditional emotional abuse to the child - EVEN IF THAT CHILD IS GROWN. A MOTHER could never do such a thing....NEVER. If she can, she is something else entirely. If you don't understand this.....ah....I'm sorry, hopefully, some day you will.

 

 

Well said!!:hurray:

[coffeefreak]

As a Christian, though, we are commanded to steer clear of false teachers. The Bible doesn't teach us to listen to them and sift through it all to get the good stuff. Imo, people like the Pearls are false teachers, spreading false teachings and interpretations of God's Word.

 

There are lots of honest Christians out there who I may disagree with on particular issues, but whom I would not label a "false teacher." In those cases, I would sort the wheat from the chaff in their writings. But what the Pearls write is so perverted and vile, and imo, wicked, I believe they should be completely avoided.

 

:iagree:

Once you start letting false teachings in, you make yourself vulnerable to more. Satan was and still is the liar and deceiver. He has been twisting God's word since Eden and he never stops.

 

II Peter 2:22

But there were also false prophets among the people, Just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who brought them - bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

 

II Timothy 3:12-13

In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[Impish]

This doesn't really "count". A pre-tean molesting another child would not be considered a pedophile.

I'm going to disagree with you. I know a family where their teen son molested his younger two sisters, his half sister, his half brother, and several neighbourhood children. All children were threatened with violence and death.

 

Its not the age that makes a pedophile.

 

The only issue is, once this young man reaches adulthood, he won't have a record. THAT, to me, is terrifying.

[Lovedtodeath]

I am not saying that this applies to a wife and a child molester, but someone was looking for scriptures so I found some.

 

Some scriptures regarding the treatment of one who has committed grevious sin...

"Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person [or guilty of another gross sin], . . . not even eating with such a man."

—1 Corinthians 5:11.

 

God who requires that an unrepentant wrongdoer be expelled from the congregation also lovingly shows that a sinner can be reinstated in the congregation if he repents and turns around. (A disassociated person can similarly request to become part of the congregation again.) Thereafter he can be comforted by Christians who will confirm their love for him. (2 Corinthians 2:5-11; 7:8-13)

 

The practice I referenced was not regarding a pedophile. The man in the scriptures had an incestuous relationship with a woman... I believe it was his sister-in-law. He stopped the wrong doing and repented. I do not know of any pedophiles who have been excommunicated and welcomed back.

 

An article about such procedure (excommunication) within the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses. (includes many more scriptural references)

 

 

I posted the above quote and link for those who might want to find more scriptural references that have to do with repentance/forgiveness, it didn't necessarily apply to the situation.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[katemary63]

I'm going to disagree with you. I know a family where their teen son molested his younger two sisters, his half sister, his half brother, and several neighbourhood children. All children were threatened with violence and death.

 

Its not the age that makes a pedophile.

 

The only issue is, once this young man reaches adulthood, he won't have a record. THAT, to me, is terrifying.

 

 

The term pedophilia (or paedophilia) has a range of definitions as found in psychiatry, psychology, law enforcement, and the vernacular. As a medical diagnosis, it is defined as a psychological disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a sexual preference for prepubescent children.[1][2][3] According to the World Health Organization, 16 and 17-year-old adolescents qualify if they have a persistent or predominant sexual preference for prepubescent children at least five years younger than them.[

 

The previous poster mentioned a pre-teen. That would be age 12 or less. That wouldn't qualify is all I'm saying. You have to be abusing someone significantly younger then you and that's almost impossible if you're under 12.

[Impish]

Gotcha.

 

The teen in the situation I mentioned was under 16, but his actions were very much those of an adult pedophile. That's what I meant by saying 'not the age that makes a pedophile'.

[jazzyfizzle]

:iagree::iagree: Yes, stunned. I'm sorry lakotahm, but you are just not seeing things clearly IMO. A mother, returning to a romantic relationship with that child's sexual abuser would be nothing short of aditional emotional abuse to the child - EVEN IF THAT CHILD IS GROWN. A MOTHER could never do such a thing....NEVER. If she can, she is something else entirely. If you don't understand this.....ah....I'm sorry, hopefully, some day you will.

 

 

This was my grandmother. She stayed with our grandfather after his abuse of his daughters. It was hushed up (typical of that day) and he went on to abuse many of his grandchildren. It has had far-reaching effects on our family and my sister will likely never forgive our mother for not protecting her children and nieces/nephews. She does not seem to have as much inner turmoil about our grandmother.

[QueenCat]

I am not saying that this applies to a wife and a child molester, but someone was looking for scriptures so I found some.

 

Some scriptures regarding the treatment of one who has committed grevious sin...

The person that was being excommunicated and then received back into the congregation was involved in an incestuous relationship. He stopped the wrong doing and repented. An article about such procedure within the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses. (includes many more scriptural references)

 

It's one thing to forgive. It's another to force your children to be around someone who has abused them, even if they've promised to not do it again. It's unfair to the children to take the risk that the abuser might relapse.

[katemary63]

This was my grandmother. She stayed with our grandfather after his abuse of his daughters. It was hushed up (typical of that day) and he went on to abuse many of his grandchildren. It has had far-reaching effects on our family and my sister will likely never forgive our mother for not protecting her children and nieces/nephews. She does not seem to have as much inner turmoil about our grandmother.

 

I'm so very sorry. Such devastation all caused from such a selfish, evil act, is hard to process. God bless your entire family.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

It's one thing to forgive. It's another to force your children to be around someone who has abused them, even if they've promised to not do it again. It's unfair to the children to take the risk that the abuser might relapse.

I did not say anything that implied otherwise.

[QueenCat]

I did not say anything that implied otherwise.

 

Sorry.... it wasn't meant to say you did. I'm just saying that allowing someone back in to the fold needs to consider those offended, even if the person is repentant. I was referring to the practice you referenced, not your opinion on the subject. I'm having a hard time explaining myself at this hour though. Just called the younger ds by the dog's name so I guess it's bed time. Clearer thoughts tomorrow.

[jazzyfizzle]

I'm so very sorry. Such devastation all caused from such a selfish, evil act, is hard to process. God bless your entire family.

 

Thank you so much :grouphug: The holidays have big family get-togethers back in forefront and as always, I feel sucked into the middle, and stress runs rampant. :(

[Lovedtodeath]

Sorry.... it wasn't meant to say you did.

Thank you.

I'm just saying that allowing someone back in to the fold needs to consider those offended, even if the person is repentant. I was referring to the practice you referenced, not your opinion on the subject.

The practice I referenced was not regarding a pedophile. The man in the scriptures had an incestuous relationship with a woman... I believe it was his sister-in-law. I do not know of any pedophiles who have been excommunicated and welcomed back. I am sorry for any confusion.

 

I posted that quote and link for those who might want to find more scriptural references that have to do with repentance/forgiveness, it didn't necessarily apply to the situation.

[katemary63]

Thank you so much :grouphug: The holidays have big family get-togethers back in forefront and as always, I feel sucked into the middle, and stress runs rampant. :(

 

Please tell me this grandfather is not at these get-togethers? Please....

[Sputterduck]

Thank you.

The practice I referenced was not regarding a pedophile. The man in the scriptures had an incestuous relationship with a woman... I believe it was his sister-in-law. I do not know of any pedophiles who have been excommunicated and welcomed back. I am sorry for any confusion.

 

I posted that quote and link for those who might want to find more scriptural references that have to do with repentance/forgiveness, it didn't necessarily apply to the situation.

 

Well, I know pedophiles who weren't excommunicated and are very welcome in their JW congregation. When brought to the attention of the elders they did exactly nothing.

[Mama Bear]

:iagree:

We did and we are at perfect peace with our Lord. Like I said, she spoke to me. I lived a lot of her stories. The only reason we don't have more children is, we couldn't. That was a death sentence in those circles. I was at fault, my husband was at fault (like I had control over my dysfunctional uterus), we must have sinned etc. Hearing someone else's story has literally saved our marriage. We have been more open about the hurts and the misguided beliefs then ever. It's very freeing and I was so glad she had her blog.

 

As for the Pearls, I found my old copy of "Helpmeet" and threw it out when we moved last year. We had long since stopped getting their magazine and updates. Up until a week ago, I was just walking around feeling stupid. now, I feel empowered and healed.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

 

May God bless you, Dorinda, and your husband and children, as you continue to heal.

[asta]

Having sex with children is not a disease.

 

Paedophilia is a psychiatric diagnosis based on a set of behaviors.

 

Alcoholism is a psychiatric diagnosis based on a set of behaviors.

 

Neither is a "disease" in the same manner as is, say "cancer", but both are serious conditions. Alcoholism, after much research, has been found to have some genetic inheritance. Paedophilia has no such research to back it up, as most paedophiles are comorbid for multiple other conditions, and getting "clean" research has been all but impossible.

 

 

a

[Sputterduck]

Paedophilia is a psychiatric diagnosis based on a set of behaviors.

 

Alcoholism is a psychiatric diagnosis based on a set of behaviors.

 

Neither is a "disease" in the same manner as is, say "cancer", but both are serious conditions. Alcoholism, after much research, has been found to have some genetic inheritance. Paedophilia has no such research to back it up, as most paedophiles are comorbid for multiple other conditions, and getting "clean" research has been all but impossible.

 

 

a

 

I am aware of that.

 

I think pedophilia is a product of evilness. Psychologists wanting to classify it doesn't change my mind about it.

[Joanne]

I realise that comparing it to alcoholism may seem a stretch for some because alcohol is neither morally repugnant nor illegal. But in many ways the affect of "rehabilitation" is comparable. An alcoholic or a pediphile will never be cured but they can be rehabilitated to avoid it. Of course the consequences of relapse are just not even in the same stratosphere so please don't think I'm putting them on a level. I'm just trying to come up with a metaphore for rehabilitation that makes some degree of logical sense.

 

As I said in my post. Many people will disagree with me but that has been my PERSONAL experience as far as my involvement with someone I know going through a rehabilitation program for this matter. Trust me... doesn't mean I trust him with my children!!!! or even like him very much; he makes me rather ill actually. But I do know that he continues to do what is needed to avoid offending again. Part of that is not putting himself in a situation where offending could occur. Hence my lack of trust... for the protection of both parties.

__________________

 

There is no accurate comparison to be made between alcholism and pedophelia.

 

Your experience of rehab and recovery from pedophelia and sexual predatorary behavior is contrary to everything I have experienced, read and studied.

 

They.do.not.rehabilititate. But they do lie.

[Lovedtodeath]

Well, I know pedophiles who weren't excommunicated and are very welcome in their JW congregation. When brought to the attention of the elders they did exactly nothing.

I am sorry that you have suffered the knowledge of injustice. God knows what goes on and his justice will prevail in the end, when imperfect men don't have to carry it out. I have known of a situation of wrongdoing (not necessarily related to the topic) in which nothing is done because they do not have the 2 witnesses needed for a judicial hearing.

 

I used the JW website because it was an easy way for me to find and share scriptures regarding repentance and forgiveness when serious wrongdoing is involved. I am sorry I did.