Health professionals asking about discipline

[Care]

The original poster was referring to what happened in a pediatrician's office (not a government run clinic).

 

Actually, what she said was:

 

I had a vaccination appointment this morning for my youngest son with a public health nurse at the local hospital.

 

This, therefore, leads to the conclusion that it was a gov't run clinic - the hospital's.

[Care]

Apparently I have my head up my arse. Oops. Well that makes more sense to me then then.

 

Sorry. :blushing:

Pssh, no big deal. I'm actually kinda surprised it's not me - it's been one of *those* days. ;)

[LibraryLover]

Is 300 something psots considered a new poster? Someone to watch? Is this a hit & run? What sort of person would admit to something as ridiculous as this without wanting a big reaction? It's got everything...

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I agree that is odd. I mean it's not like if someone beat their kids they would just say yes I abuse my Kids.

 

 

Actually....they do. In a former life I worked as a child welfare investigator and you would be SHOCKED at how many times parents just very casually told me REALLY, VERY ABUSIVE behaviours they were involved in. With a very straight face, as if it was just no big deal.

 

 

One parent in particular told me in vivid detail that she suffered from paranoid schizophrenia and had been off her medication for many months and exactly what her delusions were and what the voices were telling her to do. The allegation that was called in was completely bogus, a total lie, but......when THAT information came out the kid was removed.

 

 

So, yeah, sometimes you get just the information you are looking for through the path of least resistance.....you ask.

[LibraryLover]

The OP did.

 

Actually....they do. In a former life I worked as a child welfare investigator and you would be SHOCKED at how many times parents just very casually told me REALLY, VERY ABUSIVE behaviours they were involved in. With a very straight face, as if it was just no big deal.

 

 

One parent in particular told me in vivid detail that she suffered from paranoid schizophrenia and had been off her medication for many months and exactly what her delusions were and what the voices were telling her to do. The allegation that was called in was completely bogus, a total lie, but......when THAT information came out the kid was removed.

 

 

So, yeah, sometimes you get just the information you are looking for through the path of least resistance.....you ask.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

This is a safety issue and not about your comfort etc it is the duty of a professional to be certain that those who are vulnerable are protected from abuse. You cannot imagine what I have read and seen in CPS reports that passed for "discipline." A lack of response can also mean that the person is abusing and justifying in the name of discipline or training. Sorry but I definitely think the right of a child to be safe and protected trumps parental rights to privacy every . single. time.Furthermore medical professionals are often the first line of defense for the vulnerable child or adult. Those questions can save lives. I wish desperately someone would have asked those questions of some of the "parents" of our clients before they end up on disability with PTSD from being whipped with lamp cords on their little legs. for taking a cookie that was not permitted or breaking a VCR. These are normal things that really are everyday occurences we mostly deal and move on . Some people cannot do that . They are not that rare. Unfortunately many of them procreate . Too many here really have no idea what monsters some people can be. I attribute this to fundamental decency of the members on the board but am truly surprised at the bristling assertion of parental rights and privacy over the safety of our most vulnerable population. I know some will assert that no parent will admit to beating their children or using archaic methods of discipline that went out in the mid 20th century when children were no longer property like an mule. These medical professionals are trained to spot the falsehoods, excuses, stumbling , stuttering , stammering and deep swallows before answering, the whole gamut of body language that tells them something is not quite right. It is well within the expected area of expertise that these inquiries are made as nothing is more injurious to a child's health and well being than abuse . Jaded ? You bet. This is what I do for a living and I see this every . ****. day.

:iagree:

 

Thank you. It needed to be said.

[TxMama]

I'm not so against it if the concept truly works the way it is supposed to. Does abuse in fact get detected this way (more often than without the questioning)?

 

Yes. absolutely. Simply asking someone "Do you feel safe at home" does detect abuse.

 

 

Do innocent people get wrongly accused as a result? Etc...

 

There are lots of steps before someone is accused of anything. At my workplace it goes something like this....

 

Step 1. Nurse ask question.

 

Step 2. Nurse report to MD if Qs about answer or conduct.

 

Step 3. MD make decision regarding Social worker consult.

 

Step 4. Social Worker interview make decision re: CPS report.

 

Step 5. CPS interview and make decision.

 

I do as a nurse have the LEGAL responsibility to report suspected abuse and also have the responsibility set forth by my workplace to ask certain questions. I get asked the very same questions when I'm a patient.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Um. Thank you, but, no. I do not take my children for vaccinations to be assessed as a family unit by a public nurse or to participate in evaluating the community or region.

 

Inject my kid with your diseased mercury and I'll SELECT professionals if I want evaluation in other areas, thank you.

 

Ummm....okay. I assume if you're taking your kid for a vaccination, you *want* the so-called diseased murcury. And you wouldn't bring your kid to me, I'm not a ped's nurse. I only take care of adults on the brink of death (ICCU) and heart patients (ICCU). And yes, I do look for signs of abuse (partner abuse). And yes, I have had patients who did not feel safe with their partners and it is my business, as their nurse to not only care for them in the hospital, but also care if they have a safe home to go home to.

 

Just FYI, since you seem to be unclear on the concept of public health nursing, The American Public Health Association defines Public Health Nursing as the "practice of promoting and protecting the health of populations using knowledge from nursing, social, and public health sciences...."

 

Joanne, usually your posts are well thought out and kind. I'm not really sure why the hostility toward me. Nursing is much more than giving shots.

[Seeker]

Wow, this is going ALL over the place.

 

My thoughts are that if a medical professional suspects abuse, then she should report it as is probably required by law. However, interrogating a parent about the methods of discipline when abuse is not suspected is not appropriate. The problem I see with this line of questioning is that it diminishes the distinction between discipline and abuse, which I find insulting having been one of the abused.

 

I would have simply asked how my methods of discipline were medically relevant and, if she told me she was required by law to ask these questions, I would have asked her to cite the statute specifying she is to ask about discipline methods. Then I would not have answered because even if she is required to ask about discipline methods, it does not make me required to tell her anything.

 

On the other hand, I seriously doubt that a nurse questioning my mother or me in such a way would have revealed anything--we both would have lied and we were both quite good at covering for my father.

 

The object used is not the issue or an indicator of abuse. There is a HUGE difference between being spanked with a plastic spoon for discipline purposes and being beaten with one because an adult is out of control.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Seeker

[moki4]

There may have been some "symptoms" of abuse during the visit.

These can range from obvious bruising, to submissive behavior.

The nurse should be asking these questions. It is their job.

By the way, here in Ca., if you "disipline" a child, and leave any physical markings, that is considered abuse.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

It doesn't sound like it was an interrogation. She asked a question, then a follow-up question or two. No bright lights, no shouting.

 

These questions are there for a reason, they are used as screening tools, similar to: Does your child walk up stairs one foot at a time or alternating feet? They are assessing development with that one. With the spanking/car seat/sleeping issues, assessing home life and doing risk/safety assessment.

 

Some people DO need that push to say something like, "I prefer time-out, but my husband uses the spoon" or some such.

 

 

The evasive manner in which some previous posters stated they would answer would be HUGE red flags.

 

 

I KNOW that these are two unrelated issues, but....imagine if another parent (mom at the park, other parent at soccer practice, etc.) asked, "So, how long have you homeschooled?" then later...."do you use a certain curriculum?"......then later, "what are the homeschooling laws in our state?"

 

I guess some people could get all, "why are you asking? Why do you want to know? What business is it of yours?" I would assume that maybe they want to homeschool or maybe they are curious b/c they have a friend who homeschools and always wanted to ask these questions, but didn't.

 

I guess I just don't feel like I am "on the defense" when I am at the peds office. (And this is coming from a mom who didn't circ her son, who used to write, "intact-don't retract!" on his diaper before well-child visits, so I get the whole "have to protect/momma bear" thing.)

Edited October 29, 2009 by ThatCyndiGirl

[jazzyfizzle]

I don't consider where my kids sleep, school, shower or how my family handles discipline a *medical* question.

 

I come to a Dr's office for medical issues. I don't personally find them or their staff any more equipped to offer *parenting* advice than anyone else.

 

 

 

:iagree: :iagree:

[momtoboys]

I would probably feel uncomfortable with that line of questioning (and we rarely if ever "spank"--only with the hands over clothing 1-3 swats, and like I said, RARELY). . .only cuz I hear horror stories of kids being taken away from their families for nothing.

 

That said, I wish when I was growing up someone had noticed the way i was being disciplined. . . :sad:. . .Sometimes families can be in total isolation, and things are really wrong, and no one notices. I hesitate to support stricter "parental rights" laws for this reason.

[Lovedtodeath]

There may have been some "symptoms" of abuse during the visit.

These can range from obvious bruising, to submissive behavior.

The nurse should be asking these questions. It is their job.

By the way, here in Ca., if you "disipline" a child, and leave any physical markings, that is considered abuse.

I know a mother who will grab a 3 year old by the ankle, hang them upside down and strike them a good 6-7 times for a relatively minor offense. Her DH tweaks his son's ear and she scolds him because that could show damage. She thinks that she is mother of the year and I am horrible for coddling my children. She is proud of her abuse. She doesn't see it as abusive.

[Lovedtodeath]

OP, if you are still around. :grouphug: I am sorry that you are being treated badly by some of the things said in these posts.

[moki4]

But when you go to the Dr.'s office, you are open to a full assessment (which includes safety, diet, guns in the home, etc...)

It is part of the assessment. You can not chose which questions will be asked, but you do have control over your response. A physician, NP, PA, nurse all have the license to assess the home environment as it pertains to the health of the family.

Again, they are doing their jobs (well, I must add)

[LauraGB]

Wow, this is trickier than I originally thought.

 

On the one hand you have a parent taking her kids in to get vaccinated (responsible) and getting quizzed on family values :confused:. I guess I don't see how the two would immediately be related unless the child was exhibiting bruises or seriously questionable behavior. The nurse wasn't asking a pointed question like, "Hey, do you beat your kids" or "Do you lock your kids in cages in the basement". She asked how they "discipline" thier children. Very touchy, if you ask me. I would be absolutely offended and certainly remind the healthcare provider why I was there in the first place and get on with that business.

 

On the other hand, you have the health care practioners who are trained to do this sort of questioning. How many times can this be a mistake when you only see a family only occasionally or just for vaccinations, for crying out loud? Sometimes good people make big problems out of absolutely nothing.

 

OP, I'm not okay with spanking. It is a personal choice for me, having been on the recieving end of that growing up. However, your post was about whether a healthcare practioner has the right to ask invasive questions such as that, and I don't think so, UNLESS a child exhibits a reason to ask, in which case, I, as a person on the street, might also do the same.

[Lovedtodeath]

I am okay with spanking. I just wish it worked.:tongue_smilie:

[IsabelC]

I can see that some health professionals might be asking questions from an attitude of caring and concern for the people involved. However it still seems intrusive to me. If a child is showing bruises or some other sign of possible abuse, why not come straight out and ask how it happened? If there is no particular reason to be concerned, I would probably feel a bit resentful about being asked. Although perhaps some of us - me included - tend to get oversensitive about matters pertaining to our dc. I also found it a little rude and intrusive to be asked when pregnant whether the pregnancy was planned/wanted, even though I understand that the stats show more risk for women with unwanted pregnancies. FTR I do not spank and I am against spanking. I just don't think it is necessarily a doctor or nurse's job to police this.

[Guest 4boys]

I have nearly had a heart attack when I got back to this board after being away half the day and seeing where this thread has gone and the pm's in my inbox. I am truly appalled. I asked a simple question: Does a medical professional have any right to ask questions about discipline and have you been asked? I did NOT ask for an evaulation of my parenting methods. I realize that no one here knows me from a hole in the wall but I can assure you that my children are happy, well-behaved and wonderful people. In fact, they are regarded more highly for their behaviour than any other kids I know. Unfortunately, my saying so does not in any way prove to any of you that this is the truth, since you have to take my word for it.

 

I live my life by the Bible and the standards God has given us in his Word, including those on parenting. This is what God himself has called our family to and my obedience to him is far far more important than pleasing anyone else or being "acceptable" in the world's eyes. And guess what? I have happy, creative, joyful kids whom I wish all of you could meet in real life.

 

Thank you so much for scaring me away completely from this forum and all the wonderful advice that has benefited my home school.

 

A sincere thank you to the few members who understood what I was asking, where I was coming from, and saying some kind words to me.

[kalanamak]

Seriously? You weren't just kidding? Why would you hit your child with a plastic spoon?

 

Not that I have tried it on my son, but, never having thought of a spoon, I went upstairs and whacked my leg with a foot long plastic spoon I serve stew with. (Remember, I'm the person who tasted the new Clorox Green cleaner...the one that said it was non-toxic.).

 

My "review" is that it gives a high sting-to-trauma ratio, so that you don't have to smack very hard to get a sting, certainly not enough to cause bruising, and you would not be able, no matter how you tried, to swat the child suddenly forward (and a strong, angry swinging hand might) and throw their head back in the process. Moreover, if I hit my leg harder, it didn't sting more, really.

 

Of course my son had to jump up from his biscuits and try it, too. Let it not be said I never did anything for this forum. :D Poor hubby just shook his head (he is still recovering from the watered down apple juice we pretended was urine we were dipping with the analysis sticks, and my son and I both "suddenly decided" to taste it in front of him).

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I asked a simple question: Does a medical professional have any right to ask questions about discipline and have you been asked?

QUOTE]

 

 

You asked if they (medical professionals) have the right. Yes, they do. In some areas, they are DUTY BOUND to do so.

 

Some of us have been asked those questions, too.

[Lovedtodeath]

That is exactly what I thought. I thought a plastic spoon, how clever! It takes away the possibility of hitting too hard.

 

My "review" is that it gives a high sting-to-trauma ratio, so that you don't have to smack very hard to get a sting, certainly not enough to cause bruising, and you would not be able, no matter how you tried, to swat the child suddenly forward (and a strong, angry swinging hand might) and throw their head back in the process. Moreover, if I hit my leg harder, it didn't sting more, really.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I live my life by the Bible and the standards God has given us in his Word, including those on parenting. This is what God himself has called our family to and my obedience to him is far far more important than pleasing anyone else or being "acceptable" in the world's eyes. And guess what? I have happy, creative, joyful kids whom I wish all of you could meet in real life.

I am positive that also includes being loving and gentle and exercising justice in your dealings with your children. :grouphug: I am sorry that some people on this thread are scaring you away from the forum. I think that more people supported you than what you are recalling at the moment.

[amydavis]

I have nearly had a heart attack when I got back to this board after being away half the day and seeing where this thread has gone and the pm's in my inbox. I am truly appalled. I asked a simple question: Does a medical professional have any right to ask questions about discipline and have you been asked? I did NOT ask for an evaulation of my parenting methods. I realize that no one here knows me from a hole in the wall but I can assure you that my children are happy, well-behaved and wonderful people. In fact, they are regarded more highly for their behaviour than any other kids I know. Unfortunately, my saying so does not in any way prove to any of you that this is the truth, since you have to take my word for it.

 

I live my life by the Bible and the standards God has given us in his Word, including those on parenting. This is what God himself has called our family to and my obedience to him is far far more important than pleasing anyone else or being "acceptable" in the world's eyes. And guess what? I have happy, creative, joyful kids whom I wish all of you could meet in real life.

 

Thank you so much for scaring me away completely from this forum and all the wonderful advice that has benefited my home school.

 

A sincere thank you to the few members who understood what I was asking, where I was coming from, and saying some kind words to me.

 

:confused: I'm so sorry that this thread turned into something that would result in you feeling the need to leave. I cannot imagine what all the pm's must say, although they must be unkind since you are upset.

 

I don't like questions that I perceive to be loaded or excessively nosy, so I understood your feelings. I also can see the side presented by some people who feel there is a need for those kinds of questions. I am still figuring out my final opinion on it all.

 

Regardless, this should not have turned into a bashing of how you choose to parent, and I'm sorry if that has happened.

:grouphug:

[SonshineLearner]

But when you go to the Dr.'s office, you are open to a full assessment (which includes safety, diet, guns in the home, etc...)

It is part of the assessment. You can not chose which questions will be asked, but you do have control over your response. A physician, NP, PA, nurse all have the license to assess the home environment as it pertains to the health of the family.

Again, they are doing their jobs (well, I must add)

 

I have to say, as someone who spanks my child about once every 4-8 weeks, this makes me not want to every go to a Drs Office. I don't think it's their responsibility to tell me about most of the things in this post. I wasn't offended by the Dr telling me about keeping them back facing in a car seat, but really... I read parenting books for info. I don't want their opinion unless I ask for it. I made informed decisions on everything from letting my children stay in me for 2 weeks 5 days late... to not vacc'ing to not circ'ing, nursed till my child was almost 5, co-sleep, and if I think it's best to give him a couple swats for whatever... it's really my business. (oh yes, I wore him till he was almost 4)

 

I won't tell everyone that I think circ'ing is abusive... or call it amputation around people who have, or ask why people have their children sleep in cribs... etc. Those things can have a negative impact on some children, and yet I'm not anyone else's parent... other than my own children.

 

I love my children and have read probably 10+ books about parenting, including Love & Logic. I may find some methods of the non-spankers not good.... That's their business... really.

 

Talking about children is such an emotionally charged subject, and it seems like no one can just admit... that barring physical damage.... (or bruises that are worse than a minor bump).... Parents love their own children more than life and each parent probably makes some mistake that they wish they could undo at some point, but I don't consider anyone's job... to tell me what that mistake (at least in their opinion) is....

 

PS... TX is still crazy safe to spank in... maybe you should claim that you were staying somewhere else at the time.... Is it too late to lie??

Carrie

[KrissiK]

I am fortunate that my ped office has asked me nothing more intrusive than do we smoke and if we have lead based paint in our house. However, to me, this smacks of parental rights issues. So they don't like the way I discipline my kids. What happens when they don't like what church I go to, and that... oh horrors, we make our kids come with us? What happens when they don't like the fact that I homeschool. What happens when....? I see these questions as highly intrusive. And yes, I get that kids are abused... I adopted a couple of them. But it is not the government's job to decide how I live my life. They tried that in Russia and it didn't work.

[Paz]

A little off topic but when my kids were little a new, young (my age at the time) pediatrician join the practice. She asked about discipline and then told me that it is o.k. to bite your child back if they bite you. :confused: I was dumbfounded that she actually thought this was a proper parenting technique.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

A little off topic but when my kids were little a new, young (my age at the time) pediatrician join the practice. She asked about discipline and then told me that it is o.k. to bite your child back if they bite you. :confused: I was dumbfounded that she actually thought this was a proper parenting technique.

 

 

:001_huh: I'm trying to imagine the class in med school where they had THAT particular lecture! (The Use of Biting Force in Behaviour Modification 101)

[msjones]

I haven't read all the replies.

 

But, at the Children's Hospital ER near here, each and every parent is asked a list of screening questions when their child is brought in -- for anything. The questions relate to seat belts, medicine/poison storage, seat belts, discipline, and whether the parent feels stress related to parenting.

 

I have a friend whose child was a cancer patient for 2 years. They asked her those questions every time she brought him in -- probably over 75 visits to the ER.

 

I don't think they are concerned about the parents' feelings -- just screening for problems that may be harmful to the kids.

 

Presumably, your doctor's office has a similar approach.

 

I'd talk with them about it -- you probably won't be the first parent to do so.

[Barb_]

We want medicine to be holilstic, but only certian parts. Treat me, know me, care about me, but don't ask anything about me.

 

If my child comes in with excessive sleepiness, ask relevant questions leading to possible nutrition deficits, sleep disorders, nervous tendencies, or illnesses. Don't ask whether he uses a bike helmet. "Holistic" is nothing but a buzzword when applied to a tick-off list.

 

Barb

[Ritsumei]

I also encourage you never to answer those questions again unless there is a cps person and an attorney present.

 

I don't think I'd answer even then, unless the attorney was MY attorney and the CPS folks had a warrant. We're supposed to be free from unreasonable searches in the US, which includes our children!! The more you talk the more likely they are to find "probable cause" or whatever.

 

They're not all awful: my aunt works with CPS, and I'm confident that she's reasonable. But then you look at some of the things CPS does, and how little they care about due process and Constitutional rights some of the time, and how hard it is to get them back out once they've got that toe in the door... call me paranoid, but I especially wouldn't talk to CPS without a warrant.

[Barb_]

These questions are there for a reason, they are used as screening tools, similar to: Does your child walk up stairs one foot at a time or alternating feet? They are assessing development with that one. With the spanking/car seat/sleeping issues, assessing home life and doing risk/safety assessment.

 

Which is precisely why I take my kids to a family practice rather than a Pediatrician. If they were upfront, saying something like, "Okay, now I'd like to ask a few questions to establish we're on the same page regarding childhood risks and safety...would that be all right?" or "I'm going to ask some questions regarding your child's development" I would respect that. But they don't. They are usually presumptive, putting parents on the defensive; making them feel the need to prove they are worthy of raising their kids. Paternalistic rather than partnership.

 

I KNOW that these are two unrelated issues, but....imagine if another parent (mom at the park, other parent at soccer practice, etc.) asked, "So, how long have you homeschooled?" then later...."do you use a certain curriculum?"......then later, "what are the homeschooling laws in our state?"

 

ComPLETely unrelated. The homeschooling mom at the park is in no position of authority over you (presumed or actual). The doctor/nurse is not asking questions out of simple curiosity. They are primed to look for the worst, sometimes reading into an innocent situation.

 

My oldest broke her arm while she was *sleeping*. She is a rough sleeper, walking and talking (and shouting and flailing) in her sleep. Incidentally, this is also the one who fell asleep while driving and wrecked my van last month. Anyway, she is sleep disordered. She hyperextended her elbow and cracked it when she was about 10. We took her to an orthopedist we were familiar with and he said we were lucky because if we'd taken her to a stranger we'd have been reported for abuse because of the location and circumstances of the break. He'd have reported us himself if he didn't know us well. That made me all :001_huh: It seems medical personel are trained to report whe there is the slightest bit of doubt and then just let the chips fall.

 

Barb

[Joanne]

I love my children and have read probably 10+ books about parenting, including Love & Logic. I may find some methods of the non-spankers not good.... That's their business... really.

 

That's.........um.........it doesn't make sense.

 

How can you find "methods non spankers use" not good? Non spankers is about as descriptive as spankers in terms of quality of parenting and what the parents do in terms of effective discipline.

 

To say you spank is really meaningless in and of itself.

 

And to say you don't spank is equally as meaningless in isolation.

 

There are great and lousy parents on both sides of the spanking debate. To reduce parents to spankers and non elevates spanking to a ridiculous status and removes emphasis on the REAL issue of discipline and relationship and family tone.

[smrtmama]

If my child comes in with excessive sleepiness, ask relevant questions leading to possible nutrition deficits, sleep disorders, nervous tendencies, or illnesses. Don't ask whether he uses a bike helmet. "Holistic" is nothing but a buzzword when applied to a tick-off list.

 

Barb

 

Considering head trauma can cause excessive sleepiness, I'd think whether or not your child wears a helmet each time he rides a bike would be pretty relevant.

[Barb_]

Considering head trauma can cause excessive sleepiness, I'd think whether or not your child wears a helmet each time he rides a bike would be pretty relevant.

 

:::Snort::: I'd have to be pretty stupid not to notice whether my child got a bonk to the head.

 

I have sleep apnea on the brain lately because I've just had two kids diagnosed with it, and you are deliberately choosing to misunderstand my point.

 

Barb

Edited October 29, 2009 by Barb F. PA in AZ

[swellmomma]

Our ped never asks questions about discipline unless I am asking for ideas of what to use and he wants to know what we have tried already. He does ask questions about helmets, diet, car seat/booster seats, how they are being educated, whether or not we want to vax, if they have seen an eye dr etc.

 

I am very glad he ignores any bruises they have and doesn't ask. 98% of the time I have no clue how they got them. For example, baby girl came to me tonight to nurse and had a bruise on her cheek near her mouth that wasn't there at dinner time. She never cried to indicate she had been hurt during that time frame but apparently did. I assume she fell while playing with ds, as they had blocks and cars out in his room.

 

All 4 tend to be covered in bumps and bruises and not always in the typical places, mainly because they are crazy rough housers. Jumping off the stairs onto the landing(even baby girl does this), climbing and jumping off of nearly everything inside and out, wrestling together etc. The only time I ever worried about needing to go to the dr was when baby girl fell on a toy in the bath tub and got a bruise near her vulva. That is a location for a bruise that gets you reported, even if nothing abusive actually happened.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Which is precisely why I take my kids to a family practice rather than a Pediatrician. If they were upfront, saying something like, "Okay, now I'd like to ask a few questions to establish we're on the same page regarding childhood risks and safety...would that be all right?" or "I'm going to ask some questions regarding your child's development" I would respect that. But they don't. They are usually presumptive, putting parents on the defensive; making them feel the need to prove they are worthy of raising their kids. Paternalistic rather than partnership.

 

 

 

ComPLETely unrelated. The homeschooling mom at the park is in no position of authority over you (presumed or actual). The doctor/nurse is not asking questions out of simple curiosity. They are primed to look for the worst, sometimes reading into an innocent situation.

 

My oldest broke her arm while she was *sleeping*. She is a rough sleeper, walking and talking (and shouting and flailing) in her sleep. Incidentally, this is also the one who fell asleep while driving and wrecked my van last month. Anyway, she is sleep disordered. She hyperextended her elbow and cracked it when she was about 10. We took her to an orthopedist we were familiar with and he said we were lucky because if we'd taken her to a stranger we'd have been reported for abuse because of the location and circumstances of the break. He'd have reported us himself if he didn't know us well. That made me all :001_huh: It seems medical personel are trained to report whe there is the slightest bit of doubt and then just let the chips fall.

 

Barb

 

 

Barb, I DO see your point. (and yes, I do realize that the homeschooling analogy was somewhat unrelated. I will explain below why I chose that one.)

 

When I started working at child welfare we were already homeschooling our oldest, second child was only 1 year old and I was pregnant with my third. I did not disclose that I homeschooled, partially because it was irrelevant to the job I was doing, but also I wanted to find out if there was any anti-homeschooling bias in child welfare, as a large legal homeschooling organization attests.

 

So, one day I asked the supervisor, "So, what do you say when a parent says that they homeschool?" (because we had just been talking about interviewing teachers, school nurses, etc.) She said,"I ask them simple questions like "what curriculum do you use? Are you involved in any groups?" I said, "Hmm, well, we homeschool and group involvement isn't MANDATORY". She said, "Oh, I know, but I have found that when people ACTUALLY homeschool (as opposed to parents of truant children) they have answers to questions like curriculum, etc." She went on to point out that if she were to walk into my home she would have already SEEN school books laying about. That was (and still is) true. (They/I were not out to "get homeschoolers"; we were out to get kids back into school b/c their parents were CLAIMING to homeschool them, but were actually doing NOTHING.)

 

Her point was/is that people who are ACTUALLY doing it can answer the questions and, if it were not a CPS person/medical person asking the questions we are probably more eager to answer.

 

My third child was born while I worked there. We planned a UC homebirth. We KNEW how it was going to play out, but I allowed my co-workers to think that I was having her in a hospital because I knew that some think of UC as 'neglect'. While I didn't think that she needed medical attention so soon, she was seen by the ped within 24 hours of her birth. Why? CYA. She had Vitamin k shot and the metabolic screen that I didn't think she needed because I knew we had chosen something with some risk.

 

Physical disclipline carries risk. I am NOT saying that if you spank your kid, your kid should be removed!!! I am NOT saying that! What I am saying is that telling someone that you hit your child, particularly with an object is risky.

 

I am NOT saying that anyone who does this is a bad parent. There are plenty of people who will think I am a bad parent for not circing or for having a UC. We all assume the risk that we have chosen based on the research we have done and our parenting instinct.

[Lovedtodeath]

you are deliberately choosing to misunderstand my point.

on TWTM boards? Say it isn't so!!!:D

 

 

What is a UC?:001_huh:

[Barb_]

 

Physical disclipline carries risk. I am NOT saying that if you spank your kid, your kid should be removed!!! I am NOT saying that! What I am saying is that telling someone that you hit your child, particularly with an object is risky.

 

I am NOT saying that anyone who does this is a bad parent. There are plenty of people who will think I am a bad parent for not circing or for having a UC. We all assume the risk that we have chosen based on the research we have done and our parenting instinct.

 

I think I completely misread the intent of your first post, and I'm glad you clarified. Your story was fascinating...not many people homeschool, UC AND work for child services, LOL. Maybe that's the problem :D

 

Anyway, it seems to me now that your post was more like a warning where mine was more like a lament, but we were saying similar things.

 

Peace.

 

Barb

[Barb_]

on TWTM boards? Say it isn't so!!!:D

 

 

What is a UC?:001_huh:

 

Unassisted Childbirth.

 

Of which I've had two.

 

Completely By Accident.

 

Barb

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Unassisted Childbirth.

 

Of which I've had two.

 

Completely By Accident.

 

Barb

 

 

Yeah, I've heard the "not so fun" stories of the by accident UC. (not saying YOURS was....just sayin that THEIRS was!) and they were not happy about it!

 

Claire's was very much planned, delivered by dh in a pool on our patio. A great day, but.....not something I could share with everybody at work, kwim? :lol:

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

 

My son has mild hemophilia.

 

At his hemophilia appointment when we were in Little Rock, he saw a team that included a social worker and a psychologist. Interestingly, they asked about discipline--but wanted to make sure that we were disciplining him. They said that often, people feel bad for their children with diseases like hemophilia and react by not disciplining them at all.

 

They also asked a little about homeschooling and wanted to know if we were doing anything for homeschool preschool. I said "a bit, but not much" but that was in comparison to some people here, I didn't think before I answered, it was too early! He was 3 at the time and had learned his colors, could count to 10, and knew all his letter names and sounds and how to spell Mom, Dad, and a few other words. About 2 hours later after I had some more coffee, I realized his "not much" was more rigorous than most 3 year old preschools, I just had high WTM standards so said "not much."

Edited October 29, 2009 by ElizabethB

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I think I completely misread the intent of your first post, and I'm glad you clarified. Your story was fascinating...not many people homeschool, UC AND work for child services, LOL. Maybe that's the problem :D Yeah, I was an enigma. lol

 

Anyway, it seems to me now that your post was more like a warning where mine was more like a lament, but we were saying similar things.

 

Peace.

 

Barb

 

 

Yes. And, I wanted to point out, for the record, that I never removed a child simply because the parents spanked. NEVER EVER. (unless they were spanking with extension cords that they heated on the stove, for example, but not for what most of us are talking about on this thread, your run-of-the-mill spanking.)

 

 

ETA: never removed for spanking as the only reason for removal.

Edited October 29, 2009 by ThatCyndiGirl

[hornblower]

Yeah but that bit isn't the actual Criminal Code itself....I don't really know what that other page actually *is* ... it looks like it's talking about a case of some sort in 2004, but if there's still nothing in the actual Criminal Code... ? (Obviously I've never really studied law) ...if you click on the disclaimer thing at the top of that page, it says: "These studies are not official Parliamentary or Canadian government documents" ....

 

There was a charter attempt to overturn the section that allows corporal punishment but it failed. The judge who wrote the majority decision in that case has delineated some examples of what is reasonable or not. She specifically said no objects. The wiki entry includes parts of her reason. The text of that decision is part of how we now interpret that law nation wide.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Foundation_for_Children,_Youth_and_the_Law_v._Canada_(Attorney_General)

 

To the OP - yes, public health is supposed to screen for all sorts of things - nutrition, physical, sexual, substance abuse, psychological problems, parenting problems etc etc. It is a critical point of contact and an opportunity to offer assistance and help to vulnerable populations.

[Barb_]

Yeah, I've heard the "not so fun" stories of the by accident UC. (not saying YOURS was....just sayin that THEIRS was!) and they were not happy about it!

 

Claire's was very much planned, delivered by dh in a pool on our patio. A great day, but.....not something I could share with everybody at work, kwim? :lol:

 

No ours were semi-planned. We had a midwife, but I really don't need or want the support of a midwife during labor. For our earlier homebirths, my husband caught, and the midwife instructed. Still, because of my age and history of hemorrhage I wasn't comfortable going completely unassisted. So we just waited until transition to call. With my son, we actually did have him completely on our own. The midwife arrived about 10 minutes later. My last one came as our midwife walked in the door.

 

Barb

[Miss Sherry]

Not that I have tried it on my son, but, never having thought of a spoon, I went upstairs and whacked my leg with a foot long plastic spoon I serve stew with. (Remember, I'm the person who tasted the new Clorox Green cleaner...the one that said it was non-toxic.).

 

My "review" is that it gives a high sting-to-trauma ratio, so that you don't have to smack very hard to get a sting, certainly not enough to cause bruising, and you would not be able, no matter how you tried, to swat the child suddenly forward (and a strong, angry swinging hand might) and throw their head back in the process. Moreover, if I hit my leg harder, it didn't sting more, really.

 

Of course my son had to jump up from his biscuits and try it, too. Let it not be said I never did anything for this forum. :D Poor hubby just shook his head (he is still recovering from the watered down apple juice we pretended was urine we were dipping with the analysis sticks, and my son and I both "suddenly decided" to taste it in front of him).

 

Regarding using a spoon for a spanking. I remember hearing -( but it's been so long ago now I don't remember who said it , maybe Dr. James Dobson but don't quote me )- that it is better to use a spoon or something else not too heavy to spank with instead of your hand because your hand should not be the object the child associates with the spanking for emotional reasons. Also , the spoon can give a good sting without spanking them hard at all and without any injury. You do not "hit" the child with force, but more of a quick swat just for the sting. My children are too old for spankings so I'm glad to say I won't be needing to spank anyone.

 

I had a cat once that if he was naughty I would swat him with a rolled up newspaper.

I didn't want the cat to be afraid everytime it saw my hand move so I thought using the paper was better than using my hand for a swat. I think it worked well. The cat was not afraid when he saw my hand but he did get real alert if he saw me pick up a newspaper. :001_huh: After writing about my cat now I feel sad because when we moved across the country many years ago we had to give him away. He was a very nervous, high strung kitty and we thought traveling across the country would be too much on his nerves - and ours. :-(

Edited October 29, 2009 by Miss Sherry

[Miss Sherry]

Unassisted Childbirth.

 

Of which I've had two.

 

Completely By Accident.

 

Barb

 

I came close to having an unassisted childbirth by accident too. It was my third child and the labor and delivery was very fast. I woke up in labor at 3:30 a.m. , we left a few minutes later to go to the hospital, arrived at 4:00 a.m and she was born at 4:30. Knowing that my labors were short we didn't wait for the labor pains to be close together before leaving for the hospital. We just left because I was in labor. She was delivered by a nurse and then an ER doctor came over. My own doctor made it just a little while later. The nurses didn't take me seriously when I first arrived there and said the baby would be coming in a few minutes. They figured since I wasn't all the way dilated when examined and my labor didn't seem to be really heavy there was plenty off time left. NOT. She was born just about 15 minutes after I was told I wasn't completely dilated. It was a little shocking but such an easy delivery. I felt very blessed to have a third child. She is 14 now and we have 3 children. She's the youngest.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

perspective. As good parents, maybe better than average, it takes some mental pushups to put yourself in the place of a public health nurse (or any nurse) who sees not-so good parents all the time. Sometimes, the vaccination is the only contact with a medical professional that a family will see, or a family will deliberately go from clinic to clinic to avoid detection of abuse. Of course WE on this board would not do that, but we all are a different brand of parents.

 

We, for the most part, are homeschoolers or afterschoolers who take an active role in our children's education, which I believes indicates a higher level of involvement and awareness for the children as a whole (emotionally, spiritually, behavioraly, etc.). This is our perspective when we think of "intrusive" questions. We must, however, acknowledge that all parents are not like us. Some parents DO neglect their children. Some children are abused. Some abusive situations look "fine" from the outside. Medical professionals are trying to catch these unfortunate cases that may otherwise fall through the cracks. They are not out to get YOU. They are not (for the most part) on a witch hunt (no offense intended in this turn of phrase to any witches:001_smile:). A nurse does not start her day thinking "Oh, I wonder who I can turn into CPS today!"

 

By asking all parents some "intrusive" questions, they may gain insight into a situation that is not the ideal. They may find out that someone in the family could benefit from anger management. They may find out that a family is living without heat. They may find out that a mother occassionally spanks her child with a plastic spoon, but in their opinion, the children are well-adjusted, the mother in control of herself, and the family, overall, functional and in no need of further referrals.

[Elizabeth Conley]

When my husband was stationed on Okinawa the Navy doctors were obsessed with child rearing issues that were frankly sociological, rather than medical.

 

I told them that I wasn't interested in adopting their familial social norms, I just needed them to provide good medical care. A few of them got their diapers in a wad over my stance, but not all. In the end they learned to respect my point of view.

 

"None of your business!" is my response to everything from co-sleeping to discipline practices.

 

These discipline obsessed medical personnel are often not entirely right in the head. They have little or no respect for or trust in parents. They see abuse, neglect and incompetence in everyone who doesn't espouse their party lines. Many of them are closet abusers themselves, and project their own issues out on their patients parents. While we were on Okinawa, several of the medical personnel who were the most antagonistic and intrusive abused their children to the point of death or maiming. This confirmed my suspicion that their bizarre way of relating with their patients' parents had more to do with their own dysfunctionalism than anything else.

 

In general, regardless of who the nosy busy-body is, police your boundaries. These people are a source of poor parenting advice and unwarented entanglements with social service agencies. The less involvement you have with them, the safer and happier your family will be.