Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit

[Nestof3]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522637,00.html

 

I just thought I'd pass this along.

[Julieofsardis]

 

 

"First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left

to speak out for me."

 

Winston Churchill

 

 

 

[PineFarmMom]

Wow. Unless we see people calling in to report Superbowl parties or Mary Kay gatherings being disbanded, I'm going to have to start assuming that that is persecution!

[kalanamak]

I wonder if this has to do with parking! Some fed-up neighbor called the cops. Parking can get very heated in certain areas. I lived one place where I couldn't have more than 2 cars over or any parked in front of another house would be vandalized.

[Starr]

Crazy. So many religions have home meetings.

[Anne Rittenhouse]

I would guess that if the pastor had two families over once or twice a month no one would have noticed. I'll bet it was more like 30-40 people several times a week. I'll bet his guests parked the street full and given that it's San Diego, they sometimes would gathered outside. If the pastor lives a small neighborhood cul-de-sac I could see that his actions would impinge on my quality of life.

 

It's not that the party is religious. It's that it is the party probably large and happens on a weekly basis. In his TV interview he readily admits having adequate church facilities not far from his house. I think the good pastor needs to realize that his bible study is a popular event and he needs to accomondate his guests and his neighbors needs by using a building that has proper parking.

[mktkcb]

If you read the linked article it says that it was 10-15 people. From experience I'd guess it is once a week. Bible studies usually are no more often than that. This seems very odd to me.

[WTMCassandra]

I agree with Kalanamak that it might be a parking issue. 10-15 people might be a problem in say, a condo community. I think there's more to this story than meets the eye. I'm all for religious freedom, but that doesn't mean being a menace to the neighborhood.

 

I think the whole situation is odd. I'd like to see more information.

[Spy Car]

"First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left

to speak out for me."

 

Winston Churchill

 

Winston Churchill?

 

I'm fairly certain the quote is from Martin Niemoller :lol:

 

Bill

[Michelle in MO]

Winston Churchill?

 

I'm fairly certain the quote is from Martin Niemoller :lol:

 

Bill

 

 

It is originally from Martin Niemöller, but it may be that Winston Churchill was quoting him.

[Carrie12345]

According to this article http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2259822/posts, the questions asked focused much more on religion than parking.

 

I can absolutely understand parking concerns. If that was the real issue, why cite it as "religious assembly", knowing full well it's going to cause a huge uproar?

[Kate in Arabia]

I thought it was a zoning issue, like it's written in the local ordinances somewhere that you have to be officially "zoned" to have a "religious assembly" in that specific location. In which case you'd need to approach the local government to fix that.

 

This issue comes up sometimes with people who want to have Muslim worship services in a house; or, at one of the masjids we frequented in the States, they had zoning issues because they wanted to have people stay in the masjid overnight for specific prayers (during Ramadan, particularly at the end of the month, people will spend all night in the masjid) but the building wasn't "zoned" to have people sleeping in there. Even though people wouldn't really be sleeping, spending overnight there wasn't officially allowed by the gov't.

[Heather in Neverland]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

 

or the right of the people peaceably to assemble

 

I personally think the constitution would trump whatever city zoning code or parking issues there were.

 

Parking is not guaranteed to us by the constitution. Neither is freedom from neighbors who annoy you. But 10-15 people having a bible study? That is protected and this is persecution.

[Rhonda in TX]

I would guess that if the pastor had two families over once or twice a month no one would have noticed. I'll bet it was more like 30-40 people several times a week. I'll bet his guests parked the street full and given that it's San Diego, they sometimes would gathered outside. If the pastor lives a small neighborhood cul-de-sac I could see that his actions would impinge on my quality of life.

 

It's not that the party is religious. It's that it is the party probably large and happens on a weekly basis. In his TV interview he readily admits having adequate church facilities not far from his house. I think the good pastor needs to realize that his bible study is a popular event and he needs to accomondate his guests and his neighbors needs by using a building that has proper parking.

 

Then the citation (?) should not have mentioned it was about the Bible study. And, as others said, it was 10-15 people, not 30-40. I would also be interested in knowing how many cars it was. 10-15 people does not equal 10-15 cars. That could be as few as 2-3 cars. We have neighbors that regularly have that many extra cars at their homes for various reasons.

 

Many, many churches (and other groups) meet in homes. It fosters a sense of community that meeting in a building does not.

 

I'm reserving complete judgment until I know more facts, but I will be very concerned if they did in fact deed mention that it is a religious gathering in the citation. If it's a matter of parking, that is all that it should be concerned about - a weekly meeting that violates parking ordinances.

[Kate in Arabia]

I think one should look at the zoning laws. What does it say exactly, and why was it enacted in the first place? I assume the group had to have been reported by someone, again why? There's a lot of unknown here.

[Hedgehogs4]

if it's an issue of zoning, based on the questions they were asked, then anytime they have friends over and pray before a meal could become a "religious gathering." this is patently ridiculous. tell your attendees to park where they're sure it's legal and stay off the neighbors' lawns, but to have to get a permit for this is most definitely violation of the first amendment.

 

my neighbors across the street get really annoying during ramadan. they stay up very late, the kids run around yelling outside, waking my kids up and there are usually large gatherings of people at their house every night. does this make it a religious assembly? should i call the cops? no way! they're peaceful, even if they are noisy. i just count down the days until ramadan is over and suck it up...even if they do use up all the parking on the street.

[bettyandbob]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

 

or the right of the people peaceably to assemble

 

I personally think the constitution would trump whatever city zoning code or parking issues there were.

 

Parking is not guaranteed to us by the constitution. Neither is freedom from neighbors who annoy you. But 10-15 people having a bible study? That is protected and this is persecution.

 

Sorry, you obviously don't live in a community where parking is limited. Every space in my court is assigned. If my dh couldn't park when he got home from work once a week that would be very upsetting. The purchase of our house came with a guarantee of 2 parking spaces. I move my car out of the court when I have a contractor or other visitor at my house. If I'm having a larger gathering I give detailed instructions on where to park and walk to my house. One of my neighbors told her nanny to park in our spaces after a big snow, because we'd shoveled our own spaces and they were clear. She was upset when we (another neighbor and I) told her she had to find other parking for her nanny.

 

If this is a parking issue, I completely sympathize.

 

And truly freedom of assembly is for people not cars. So, if there are parking restrictions, feel free to assemble, just leave your car elsewhere.

[Danestress]

a little more information.

 

http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html

[Kate in Arabia]

if it's an issue of zoning, based on the questions they were asked, then anytime they have friends over and pray before a meal could become a "religious gathering." this is patently ridiculous. tell your attendees to park where they're sure it's legal and stay off the neighbors' lawns, but to have to get a permit for this is most definitely violation of the first amendment.

Then the zoning law needs to be changed/removed. Why does it say "religious assembly" and not just "assembly"? And what constitutes an assembly? Number of people? Regularity of meeting?

 

Still lots of questions.

[Carrie12345]

a little more information.

 

http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html

 

"...it sounds like the county is backing away from their original warning."

 

"In April, Jones received a written warning for "unlawful use of land" and was ordered to stop hosting his "religious assemblies."

 

Does this mean he's no longer ordered to stop hosting, or is this a bunch of hemming and hawing?

[mazakaal]

 

Sorry, you obviously don't live in a community where parking is limited. Every space in my court is assigned. If my dh couldn't park when he got home from work once a week that would be very upsetting. The purchase of our house came with a guarantee of 2 parking spaces. I move my car out of the court when I have a contractor or other visitor at my house. If I'm having a larger gathering I give detailed instructions on where to park and walk to my house. One of my neighbors told her nanny to park in our spaces after a big snow, because we'd shoveled our own spaces and they were clear. She was upset when we (another neighbor and I) told her she had to find other parking for her nanny.

 

If this is a parking issue, I completely sympathize.

 

And truly freedom of assembly is for people not cars. So, if there are parking restrictions, feel free to assemble, just leave your car elsewhere.

 

 

If it's a parking issue, then they should make it a parking issue. They need to enforce the parking regulations - ticket the cars if they want to - but not restrict the free exercise of religion.

 

We used to have weekly meetings here in my home with up to 60 people, but usually 20-40 people. During the summer months parking is very difficult to find and some people would drive up and down our road trying to find a legal parking space. Some would have to walk quite a distance and others would actually give up and go home. If someone chose to park illegally, they could have gotten a parking ticket for it - fair enough. But if we were told that we couldn't meet because there is limited parking, that would be outrageous. We don't live in the US, so the constitution doesn't apply to us, but the principle is still there. But as of today, San Diego County is still part of the US and so, yes, the constitution does apply. They should be permitted to meet and parking regulations should be enforced accordingly.

[Harriet Vane]

If it's a parking issue, then they should make it a parking issue. They need to enforce the parking regulations - ticket the cars if they want to - but not restrict the free exercise of religion.

 

We used to have weekly meetings here in my home with up to 60 people, but usually 20-40 people. During the summer months parking is very difficult to find and some people would drive up and down our road trying to find a legal parking space. Some would have to walk quite a distance and others would actually give up and go home. If someone chose to park illegally, they could have gotten a parking ticket for it - fair enough. But if we were told that we couldn't meet because there is limited parking, that would be outrageous. We don't live in the US, so the constitution doesn't apply to us, but the principle is still there. But as of today, San Diego County is still part of the US and so, yes, the constitution does apply. They should be permitted to meet and parking regulations should be enforced accordingly.

 

Well said.

 

I am appalled by this. The two linked articles do not define this as a parking issue, nor did the officials involved. They cite this as a religious assembly issue, and where a person is allowed to do that. I would be appalled if any place in this country prohibited Bible study and prayer in a private home--people apparently have the right to large drunken parties but not Bible and prayer?!?!

[Nicole M]

What is this pastor's denomination?

 

Maybe I'm cynical, but like all news stories, this makes me suspicious that there is something here we don't know. What if he's a whack-job cult leader, and this is the only way law enforcement can deter his activities? What if he's a ring leader in some child s*x scandal? If his activities are harmless, then I think that will come out and law enforcement should back off and apologize. But if some type of activity is going on that is illegal, and this is a (poorly planned) step in shutting it down, then fine.

 

I am not ready to claim persecution here. I think we're already doing a fine job persecuting certain people in this country, but this is not a case that I think is going to go very far.

 

ETA: I have a wingnut neighbor who is constantly calling in the humane society and the police for various perceived violations of whatever. If I were to hold a weekly meeting of 10 people at my house, that would totally clog all the street parking on this block and you bet your booties she would complain and do anything in her power to shut it down. There are fruitcakes everywhere, and somehow, I suspect that if we did enough digging, we'd find one involved with this case, somewhere....

Edited May 29, 2009 by Nicole M

[Heather in Neverland]

 

Sorry, you obviously don't live in a community where parking is limited. Every space in my court is assigned. If my dh couldn't park when he got home from work once a week that would be very upsetting. The purchase of our house came with a guarantee of 2 parking spaces. I move my car out of the court when I have a contractor or other visitor at my house. If I'm having a larger gathering I give detailed instructions on where to park and walk to my house. One of my neighbors told her nanny to park in our spaces after a big snow, because we'd shoveled our own spaces and they were clear. She was upset when we (another neighbor and I) told her she had to find other parking for her nanny.

 

If this is a parking issue, I completely sympathize.

 

And truly freedom of assembly is for people not cars. So, if there are parking restrictions, feel free to assemble, just leave your car elsewhere.

 

 

If they are violating parking regulations then ticket the cars or tow them. But to ask the family to STOP the bible study gathering is to violate their constitutional rights.

[Nestof3]

It seems odd that if the issue had been about parking, why wasn't that mentioned in the article? It seems to be about zoning for religious meetings.

 

Edited: second article mentions it, but I see crowded parking all over our neighborhood. Perhaps I should start calling them all in. I guess people will have to stop having Memorial Day parties and such as well.

 

But, the order cited "unlawful use of land." I am living in the wrong country if studying and praying in a home is unlawful. Have these people ever read the constitution, or does that matter anymore?

Edited May 29, 2009 by nestof3

[Spy Car]

It seems odd that if the issue had been about parking, why wasn't that mentioned in the article? It seems to be about zoning for religious meetings.

 

 

Let's see?

 

Fox News. World Net Daily.

 

They wouldn't skew the news for their own purposes. Would they?

 

Bill

[Nestof3]

Let's see?

 

Fox News. World Net Daily.

 

They wouldn't skew the news for their own purposes. Would they?

 

Bill

 

Honestly, I've never seen a news source who doesn't have an agenda.

[PiCO]

a little more information.

 

http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html

 

That makes more sense. The complaint was about parking, the police officer sent to investigate was trying to figure out what was going on, so they could figure out how to stop it.

 

Obviously the police officer and the department made an error in judgement. It's a parking issue and they should pursue it as such. Leave religion out.

[Greta]

That makes more sense. The complaint was about parking, the police officer sent to investigate was trying to figure out what was going on, so they could figure out how to stop it.

 

Obviously the police officer and the department made an error in judgement. It's a parking issue and they should pursue it as such. Leave religion out.

 

I think it's pretty natural that an officer is going to ask *why* so many people are parked there. That's just part of the job, isn't it? The error in judgment occurred when Fox News tried to turn a story about parking problems into one about religious oppression, if you ask me.

[OHGrandma]

This site is linked from Fox, but at the bottom of the page it says 'CNN':

http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html

 

 

clips from the article:

"Obviously, I wasn't there, so I can't tell you exactly what was said. However, what our officer was trying to do is establish what the use is so that we know what regulations to actually utilize," explained Chandra Wallar of the county's land use and environment group.

 

Wallar said it's the officer’s job to determine what kind of event is hosted at Jones’ house to decide what part of county code the event falls under.

 

"The Bible studies are one that's probably in a very gray area," Waller said.

.

.

.

In April, Jones received a written warning for "unlawful use of land" and was ordered to stop hosting his "religious assemblies."

[Elaine]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

 

or the right of the people peaceably to assemble

 

I personally think the constitution would trump whatever city zoning code or parking issues there were.

 

Parking is not guaranteed to us by the constitution. Neither is freedom from neighbors who annoy you. But 10-15 people having a bible study? That is protected and this is persecution.

 

You're assuming that people actually know what the constitution says, and uphold it - something we see precious little of today. :glare:

[Elaine]

Let's see?

 

Fox News. World Net Daily.

 

They wouldn't skew the news for their own purposes. Would they?

 

Bill

 

And neither would CNN or MSNBC or CBS or ABC or any other liberal news media source?? :001_rolleyes: Just because you don't agree with it does not make it untrue.

[Impish]

If its a parking issue, then issue parking tickets. Period. No need to be asking what the meetings are about, if 'Amen' is uttered. Nonya.

 

A parking issue, a zoning issue has to do with industry. Asking about praising the Lord, Nonya.

 

If I hosted a weekly Mary Kay, they could ticket parked cars, or complain that I wasn't zoned for business. Fine. There is no business being conducted, no zone violation here. If this was a gathering of Marines and former Marines for Memorial Day, or in celebration or mourning of fellow Marines returning from the war, I sincerely doubt there would be a 'zoning' or 'improper use of land' issue.

 

What exactly IS improper use of land in this situation, anyways? They aren't dumping toxic waste, using industrial machinery in a residential zone, violating noise bylaws, molesting shubbery, groping topsoil...Did a patch of grass complain that someone went barefoot before the frost was fully gone?

[OHGrandma]

Fascinating...http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html appears to be a CNN affiliate so I thought I'd see if CNN picked up the story on their main site. In the top 10 US news articles I found 2 about the Catholic priest who had an affair with a woman, the spelling bee champ, a wind farm getting stimulus money and adding 100 jobs, a cop apologizing for saying he wanted to beat the mayor with a ball bat, airline passengers that landed in river getting their luggage back, ... nothing about a story that's been discussed and blogged about by millions of people. Wonder why? Would people who read CNN care about constitutional rights?

[Greta]

This site is linked from Fox, but at the bottom of the page it says 'CNN':

http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html

 

Okay, so originally both Fox and CNN failed to mention the parking issues that were the crux of the entire situation, and made it sound like a case of religious oppression. I am not the least bit surprised. The news media knows that they get the best ratings when they stir up fear and anger. A story about parking violations isn't likely to provoke either, but one about religious oppression sure will.

[TravelingChris]

:iagree:with Elaine. The questions were made by someone who was ignorant of the Constitution. That was why the County backed down. The county has rules, I presume, about where institutions such as schools, community clubs, churches, synanagogues, mosques, temples, etc, can be zoned. I agree with that aspect of zoning since if my cul-de-sac suddenly had one of those when all we are supposed to have is residential one family houses, I would be upset too. The area isn't set up for large groups meeting on a regualr basis. However, a Bible Study of 10-15 people is no different than the gardening club meeting, the birthday party, the backyard BBQ, etc, etc. Religious groups have special rights, not less rights. However, whenever you see the polls on what rights and responsibilities Americans have under the Constition with all of its amendments, the ignorance of a large amount of people is staggering.

[Michelle T]

What is this pastor's denomination?

 

Maybe I'm cynical, but like all news stories, this makes me suspicious that there is something here we don't know. What if he's a whack-job cult leader, and this is the only way law enforcement can deter his activities? What if he's a ring leader in some child s*x scandal? If his activities are harmless, then I think that will come out and law enforcement should back off and apologize. But if some type of activity is going on that is illegal, and this is a (poorly planned) step in shutting it down, then fine.

 

I am not ready to claim persecution here. I think we're already doing a fine job persecuting certain people in this country, but this is not a case that I think is going to go very far.

 

ETA: I have a wingnut neighbor who is constantly calling in the humane society and the police for various perceived violations of whatever. If I were to hold a weekly meeting of 10 people at my house, that would totally clog all the street parking on this block and you bet your booties she would complain and do anything in her power to shut it down. There are fruitcakes everywhere, and somehow, I suspect that if we did enough digging, we'd find one involved with this case, somewhere....

 

 

The leap to assuming persecution here makes me wonder how much might be made up, exaggerated, or otherwise manipulated to make it LOOK like more than it is. Yeah, we also have a neighbor who would call the police if we had a bunch of cars parking on the street routinely.

Michelle T

[OHGrandma]

Okay, so originally both Fox and CNN failed to mention the parking issues that were the crux of the entire situation, and made it sound like a case of religious oppression. I am not the least bit surprised. The news media knows that they get the best ratings when they stir up fear and anger. A story about parking violations isn't likely to provoke either, but one about religious oppression sure will.

 

They weren't issued parking citations, they were issued a written warning for "unlawful use of land" and was ordered to stop hosting his "religious assemblies." The story is not about parking violations because no parking violations were issued.

[katemary63]

I think it's pretty natural that an officer is going to ask *why* so many people are parked there. That's just part of the job, isn't it? The error in judgment occurred when Fox News tried to turn a story about parking problems into one about religious oppression, if you ask me.

 

How is it "trying to turn" if the letter the guy recieved specifically told him to stop his religious assembly???? A issue of parking would mention no such thing.

[Cricket]

I think it's pretty natural that an officer is going to ask *why* so many people are parked there. That's just part of the job, isn't it? The error in judgment occurred when Fox News tried to turn a story about parking problems into one about religious oppression, if you ask me.

 

An officer can ask why so many people were parked there but the question didn't stop with "why are all these cars here?" "Do you say amen?" and "Do you praise the Lord?" seems way beyond what is necessary to be asking if it is a parking issue. I, for one, think it is great that stories like this come to light. If the media doesn't report stories like this, then how do citizens hold government officials accountable for their actions? If it turns out to be nothing, then okay. But now they know someone is watching and paying attention.

[katemary63]

What is this pastor's denomination?

 

Maybe I'm cynical, but like all news stories, this makes me suspicious that there is something here we don't know. What if he's a whack-job cult leader, and this is the only way law enforcement can deter his activities? What if he's a ring leader in some child s*x scandal? If his activities are harmless, then I think that will come out and law enforcement should back off and apologize. But if some type of activity is going on that is illegal, and this is a (poorly planned) step in shutting it down, then fine.[/quote]

 

Are you kidding me??? Really? Shouldn't law enforcement authorities just investigate crime and charge someone for what they've done? It sounds like you are saying it would be okay with you if they were doing this to deter some other crime or annoyance ( cult leaders aren't neccesarily criminals).

[Greta]

They weren't issued parking citations, they were issued a written warning for "unlawful use of land" and was ordered to stop hosting his "religious assemblies." The story is not about parking violations because no parking violations were issued.

 

I don't know what citations were issued because the articles are pretty vague on that, plus I'm not familiar with San Diego ordinances. I don't know what "unlawful use of land" means or even which land it was referring to. I'm not saying that the police handled this situation perfectly, because I don't have enough information to make that judgment. They may very well have screwed up. But I don't see how anyone can believe that this story is not about parking, when the parking issues were why the police got called in the first place.

 

From the article Danestress linked:

 

Wallar said the county only cares about how any event impacts the surrounding neighborhood.

 

"We want to make sure -- whether they're on a public road or a private road -- that they're parking safely; that we can get fire trucks in; that we can get police vehicles in," Waller said.

 

...

 

"We honestly don't care what people do inside their homes. That's their business. That's their private right," Wallar said.

[Greta]

"Do you say amen?" and "Do you praise the Lord?" seems way beyond what is necessary to be asking if it is a parking issue.

 

I can definitely agree with you on that.

 

I, for one, think it is great that stories like this come to light. If the media doesn't report stories like this, then how do citizens hold government officials accountable for their actions? If it turns out to be nothing, then okay. But now they know someone is watching and paying attention.

 

In principle I agree with you. In reality I am just tired of media frenzies over nothing.

[Julieofsardis]

Winston Churchill?

 

I'm fairly certain the quote is from Martin Niemoller :lol:

 

Bill

 

Okay, I thought the quote was from Churchill. So, I googled the first line and his name together. The poem came up with his name attached, so I assumed I was right. Yes, I should be more sure of my facts before posting. However, as I am obviously not nearly as intelligent as you, I'd have to spend an inordinate amount of time making sure of my facts before posting. Thus, why I rarely post. You probably won't be hearing from me again for a while. Until my stupidity drives me to weigh in on something I obviously have no business talking about.

 

Julie

[WishboneDawn]

x

Edited May 29, 2009 by WishboneDawn

[Cricket]

In reality I am just tired of media frenzies over nothing.

 

And I'd have to agree with you on that! :D

[elizabeth]

 

http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html It is about parking someone finally complained about parking.Sheesh - the level of paranoia that certain media try to whip up is astonishing.

[WishboneDawn]

Okay, I thought the quote was from Churchill. So, I googled the first line and his name together. The poem came up with his name attached, so I assumed I was right. Yes, I should be more sure of my facts before posting. However, as I am obviously not nearly as intelligent as you, I'd have to spend an inordinate amount of time making sure of my facts before posting. Thus, why I rarely post. You probably won't be hearing from me again for a while. Until my stupidity drives me to weigh in on something I obviously have no business talking about.

 

Julie

 

:blink:

 

:chillpill:

 

We all make mistakes (heck, me more than most!:001_smile:) and all get corrected at some point or another and it's almost always done and received in good humour. I can't see any way Bill's post can be read as stepping outside those bounds.

[OHGrandma]

http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html It is about parking someone finally complained about parking.Sheesh - the level of paranoia that certain media try to whip up is astonishing.

 

Then why not issue parking tickets and be done with it?

[Julieofsardis]

:blink:

 

:chillpill:

 

We all make mistakes (heck, me more than most!:001_smile:) and all get corrected at some point or another and it's almost always done and received in good humour. I can't see any way Bill's post can be read as stepping outside those bounds.

 

What started out as a light hearted rebuttal, quickly went south. I really didn't mean to sound so harsh, I guess I just let my true feelings slip out. I am just always afraid to post here, because I always seem to get slapped. When I posted that quote, I thought to myself, "How can anybody argue with a quote?" Well, I guess I was wrong.

 

I shouldn't have posted to begin with. I should know better by now. I'll just glean from you guys through lurking. I'm just a wanna be WTM'er.

 

Oh, and I'm truly not trying to seek pity -- just stating the facts m'am.