On "taking a knee"

[Corraleno]

My WW2 veteran grandfathers instilled a different view of the anthem and flag. I can't hear the anthem, or see the flag, without a lump in my throat for the men who died. When I see people kneel to protest, it is the same to me as if they had spit on the grave of those good men.

The people who are truly spitting on the graves of WWII vets are the ones marching with Nazi flags and emblems. The Americans who died in WWII were fighting to defeat fascism and bigotry — the same things the NFL players, and millions of other people of color, are fighting against.

 

No one is more disprectful to the American flag than those who wave the flags of our enemies and who seek to undo the painfully won, and frighteningly fragile, steps towards equality that this country has made so far. When neo-Nazis and KKK are referred to as "very fine people" while black athletes are called "sons of bitches" for exercising their constitutional rights to protest racial inequality, there is no other explanation than racism.

 

I think anyone who fought in WWII and saw fascism close up would indeed be very concerned about what's happening in our country — but I think the peaceful protests of a few black athletes would be pretty low on their list of concerns.

[Bluegoat]

Perhaps. It's hard to do something symbolic  that no one is going to misinterpret. None of us agree on the meaning of art, literature, or Bible verses either.  Symbol is open to interpretation by its very nature. 

 

In this case on the other side of things, some of us have been surprised that what we thought was symbolic respect to country (to stand during the anthem) was construed by others as respect for the military, for instance. 

 

 And if there are some in whose interests it is financially or whatever to gin up  misunderstanding and then see it amplified all over social media, then the person doing the gesture is not wholly responsible. 

 

Deliberate misunderstanding, and wise misinforming others, is a huge problem.

 

It's true symbols can be ambiguous.  In this case though, I can't think of any way I'd know this action was protesting racism unless someone told me.  It seem to have zero intrinsic connection.  If I were guessing, I'd have thought he was upset about the national anthem, or something to do with football, or maybe even that it was some kind of religious thing.

 

It seems like he wanted to do something at the game, which I can understand - that's a large audience - but I can so easily see people jumping to all kinds of crazy ideas.

[EmseB]

Is there some kind of assumption that the kneelers aren't also entitled to feel some kind of way about the country, flag, anthem and various other patriotic symbols? Do you suppose they don't also have family members who fought, died and worked to make the country what it is? Is there only one way to be an American, uphold its values and/or seek redress of grievances toward America? The impression I get is that there is never an appropriate time, place and manner to address the issues these athletes are publicizing. I'm really interested in hearing what alternative ideas folks have. If peaceful assembly and silent gestures and wearing tee shirts is too much for folks to take, what's left but silence?

They are certainly free to do it. Just as people who disagree with them are free to not watch the NFL. If someone chooses not to watch football because of it, that's using the same prerogative as the people taking the knee, right?

[KarenC]

I completely support their right to take a knee.  It's a completely non-violent protest.  That's the kind of protest we need.  I/m surprised at the level of hostility toward the players.  Maybe many of the people who have a problem with it don't really understand why they are protesting to begin with.

[Sneezyone]

I can take it, but I don't care for it.

 

I think that the best way to address these valid and righteous issues is to work on them, proactively, being part of the solution, personally and corporately.  Speaking up.  Sharing.  Volunteering.  Donating.  Serving.  Praying.  Loving.

 

That doesn't mean that I think these are the only ways, just that I think they are likely to be the most productive.

 

Speaking up is what's drawing criticism.

 

Sharing is leading to death threats. An athlete recently had a gun held to his head by LEOs in NV. His sharing was not welcomed.

 

Volunteering is being done too. Kapernick and Sherman, in particular, have volunteered and donated extensively. They've raised millions, more than prominent politicians.

 

Serving, how so?

 

Praying. Are they required to be theists to be advocates?

 

Loving? How does that help them not get shot?

[Sneezyone]

They are certainly free to do it. Just as people who disagree with them are free to not watch the NFL. If someone chooses not to watch football because of it, that's using the same prerogative as the people taking the knee, right?

 

Sure. Turn off the TV. I'm all for it. What I do not understand is the hostility being directed at them and those like them who justifiably feel threatened by race relations in the U.S.

[KarenC]

I am not sure why they play the National anthem before a football game or other sports event anyway. I get it if it's the Olympics or an international game, and the play the anthems of the participants' countries. But what does a sporting event have to do with America? That's inflationary and devalues the anthem. Why not play it at the movies or the ice cream parlour?

I've never understood this either.  What is the point of playing the anthem before a sporting event?

[bibiche]

I guess I am not getting why people are so offended by what I see as a peaceful and respectful way to shine a light on systemic racism.  My thoughts are pretty much in line with those expressed here: 

https://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/09/20/white-america-its-time-to-take-a-knee/

[wonderchica]

I just think they should keep their personal opinions to themselves while they're working - just like any other profession. My friend who is a doctor, my brothers in retail and sales, my DH who is a Police Officer, my friend who's a butcher - none of them are allowed to share personal opinions not related to their jobs with the public they encounter. As part of "the public" I don't want others pushing their views on me on their company's time - wether I agree with it or not. .

Gosh, I've probably heard thousands, if not millions, of personal opinions from people who are working. From those I work with and those who I was a client (customer, patient, etc.). I don't think this a standard that is being applied to the vast majority of Americans.

[Guinevere]

The people who are truly spitting on the graves of WWII vets are the ones marching with Nazi flags and emblems. The Americans who died in WWII were fighting to defeat fascism and bigotry — the same things the NFL players, and millions of other people of color, are fighting against.

 

No one is more disprectful to the American flag than those who wave the flags of our enemies and who seek to undo the painfully won, and frighteningly fragile, steps towards equality that this country has made so far. When neo-Nazis and KKK are referred to as "very fine people" while black athletes are called "sons of bitches" for exercising their constitutional rights to protest racial inequality, there is no other explanation than racism.

 

I think anyone who fought in WWII and saw fascism close up would indeed be very concerned about what's happening in our country — but I think the peaceful protests of a few black athletes would be pretty low on their list of concerns.

 

It doesn't have to be one or the other.  I don't think either grandfather would say they shouldn't kneel either, but they would be troubled, as I am, by the choice.  I'd love to ask them, but they are both gone.  

 

It does come down to the meaning of the symbol, though.  The flag, to me, is so intricately tied to sacrifice that I can't separate it, and find myself horrified when I see it used otherwise.  It is like spitting on the graves because to me it symbolizes the dead, all the way from the Revolution until now.  Each person who died for freedom is symbolized in those red stripes.  I know the white and blue have meaning, too, but it is the red that stands out.  It's war, it's caskets, it's the dead.  It's the most honorable and undefiled symbol we have as Americans.  It is honorable and undefiled because it is what represents all the things we wish we were, and all the things we have tried to be.  And the red runs by those who have sacrificed themselves for something bigger than themselves.   We stand and honor the flag because it symbolizes all the very best things.  The flag isn't about claiming we are the best, it's about understanding that each individual, in each generation, has to commit ourselves to this "unfinished work,"  and our flag is the symbol of that goodness.   We should be united under that.  So when a person chooses to ignore the traditional way of respecting that flag and chooses instead to kneel, it cuts pretty deep.    

 

I feel like I just rambled, but I don't know that I can do better.  

 

I still respect their right to do it.  

[Guest]

I thought it was a fine gesture until Kaepernick came out wearing socks with pigs dressed as cops on them. Then all of it seemed rather disrespectful and attention seeking.

 

I don't even watch football, though, I just saw that bit in the news.

Yeah. That was a while ago but it was way over the top and I lost a lot of my chill over letting him do it without responding negatively. That cheapened it and made it a full out dig.

[bibiche]

On the socks, for context: http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-colin-kaepernick-socks-20160901-snap-htmlstory.html

[Sneezyone]

It doesn't have to be one or the other.  I don't think either grandfather would say they shouldn't kneel either, but they would be troubled, as I am, by the choice.  I'd love to ask them, but they are both gone.  

 

It does come down to the meaning of the symbol, though.  The flag, to me, is so intricately tied to sacrifice that I can't separate it, and find myself horrified when I see it used otherwise.  It is like spitting on the graves because to me it symbolizes the dead, all the way from the Revolution until now.  Each person who died for freedom is symbolized in those red stripes.  I know the white and blue have meaning, too, but it is the red that stands out.  It's war, it's caskets, it's the dead.  It's the most honorable and undefiled symbol we have as Americans.  It is honorable and undefiled because it is what represents all the things we wish we were, and all the things we have tried to be.  And the red runs by those who have sacrificed themselves for something bigger than themselves.   We stand and honor the flag because it symbolizes all the very best things.  The flag isn't about claiming we are the best, it's about understanding that each individual, in each generation, has to commit ourselves to this "unfinished work,"  and our flag is the symbol of that goodness.   We should be united under that.  So when a person chooses to ignore the traditional way of respecting that flag and chooses instead to kneel, it cuts pretty deep.    

 

I feel like I just rambled, but I don't know that I can do better.  

 

I still respect their right to do it.  

 

Thank you for taking the time to articulate that. It's about the most heartfelt response I've seen from someone opposed. I would just remind you that there are people, like myself, who feel equally strong that the flag is also one of the few ways (like hanging it upside down) that one can truly show the depth of the pain, anger, and fear that many of us are living with right now. Both of my children have articulated to DH and I that they do not want to return to the U.S. Both of my children are afraid of being verbally or physically attacked.

 

I worry constantly about my spouse driving to and from work without us in the car, and now, even with us in the car. The visceral reaction that you have is really a pittance compared to the sheer terror we live with all the time. It doesn't matter what my husband does for a living. It doesn't matter how much these athletes make. They are still black men in America and for many people that is *all* they are and will ever be and all anyone will ever see.

 

We are not united in understanding that, in feeling that angst. A scrap of fabric cannot paper over those divisions.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Sneezyone

[6packofun]

I guess I am not getting why people are so offended by what I see as a peaceful and respectful way to shine a light on systemic racism.  My thoughts are pretty much in line with those expressed here: 

https://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/09/20/white-america-its-time-to-take-a-knee/

 

Yeah, we definitely need another "White people, do this" article.  *sigh*

 

I think that America is great because some citizens are willing to fight and even die for the freedom of others to ineffectively protest for a really good cause that ends up focusing on one's action (kneeling during the anthem) rather than the actual cause.  Everyone has the right to poorly choose a way to protest something.

 

I think most people are missing that the method isn't effective but it keeps getting rammed down people's throats and no one is responding to it, at least not concerning the actual cause.  Maybe change it up because the POINT of doing it is being lost and it's important!  It's not these players' fault that some people misunderstand or purposely conflate their actions to mean something that they don't mean.  BUT, instead of staying blind to the fact that this isn't moving the RIGHT conversation forward, maybe try something else?

 

And before anyone else says that they've been trying *everything* else and no one is listening...I bet Martin Luther King, Jr. (who took a knee in PRAYER, something generally positive rather than against something as well as his peaceful protests) got sick and tired of having to say the same thing over and over.  But HE DID.  Eventually some of the people who should be hearing the message will take it in.  All of them?  Probably never, but we have to keep going!  I feel very sad that it has to be this exhausting for some members of this country.  Many of us will try to help or lighten that burden but sometimes, because of our own life experiences, we just won't get it quite right all the time.  But let's believe the best in each other as much as possible.

[Laurie4b]

I don't (and won't) say they can't/shouldn't do it, for the record.

 

I need to think to put words to why I feel so strongly. I'll try to answer later.

 

 

Thank you. I really appreciate it. I know it's hard to find words for something that is deep and visceral. 

[Sneezyone]

Yeah, we definitely need another "White people, do this" article.  *sigh*

 

I think that America is great because some citizens are willing to fight and even die for the freedom of others to ineffectively protest for a really good cause that ends up focusing on one's action (kneeling during the anthem) rather than the actual cause.  Everyone has the right to poorly choose a way to protest something.

 

I think most people are missing that the method isn't effective but it keeps getting rammed down people's throats and no one is responding to it, at least not concerning the actual cause.  Maybe change it up because the POINT of doing it is being lost and it's important!  It's not these players' fault that some people misunderstand or purposely conflate their actions to mean something that they don't mean.  BUT, instead of staying blind to the fact that this isn't moving the RIGHT conversation forward, maybe try something else?

 

And before anyone else says that they've been trying *everything* else and no one is listening...I bet Martin Luther King, Jr. (who took a knee in PRAYER, something generally positive rather than against something as well as his peaceful protests) got sick and tired of having to say the same thing over and over.  But HE DID.  Eventually some of the people who should be hearing the message will take it in.  All of them?  Probably never, but we have to keep going!  I feel very sad that it has to be this exhausting for some members of this country.  Many of us will try to help or lighten that burden but sometimes, because of our own life experiences, we just won't get it quite right all the time.  But let's believe the best in each other as much as possible.

 

What methods are acceptable and appropriate to you? MLK was REVILED at the time of his death. He was an agitator, a degenerate, and a criminal. He blocked streets. He facilitated business interruptions. He was seen exactly how these athletes are today.

 

I really need some concrete examples of protests that are acceptable because kneeling, speaking, marching, and even absence (hello Golden State!) are all too controversial.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Sneezyone

[Lisa R.]

First, did you read the article? Kneeling is a posture of respect, not disrespect. They kneel when a fellow player is injured, to show solidarity. They kneel when a coach or other authority figure is speaking. They kneel like that to pray in the locker room or on the field. It is NOT a statement of disrespect. 

 

 

I think standing with a hand over a heart is respectful. Kneeling seems quite respectful, too, in any context I've heard. While I'm not sure it's a choice I'd make, it seems to be a type of quiet, calm but respectful protest.

 

I think sitting down and holding a fist up are disrespectful choices. If people want to show that disrespect, they are free to do so. The NFL and its fans also have a right to issue a consequence for that behavior whether it is to fire the player, not renew a contract and the fans can stop viewing or attending the games. So, there's freedom on all sides here.

 

Also, the term slactivism comes to mind. See further explanation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slacktivism    I'd think highly of those respectfully protesting if they're doing something to further race relations or make specific measures furthering the discussion on race relations or police misconduct. However, simply kneeling or sitting or fist raising with a group of people who are doing likewise, isn't taking much of a stand.

 

It's somewhat similar to someone "liking" or "sharing" their social outrage on Facebook or other social media. That don't make you a force for social change. 

[bettyandbob]

To me the protest is partly about how we have not done well for all Americans and we need to work harder on this. There is no reason not point this out. This is a way to make the point loudly.

 

If you don't like it don't watch sports. If enough people don't watch the NFL will take action.

 

I can't post articles here now, but I've seen many veterans of color posting their support.

 

As others have said I think the ultimate disrespect is carrying flags we fought against ( Nazi and Confederate).

[bibiche]

Thanks for posting that, Sneezy.

 

The thing I find particularly frustrating is that there seems to be no acceptable way to confront this issue of systemic racism. If people think there is no acceptable way to raise awareness, are they really just saying that they prefer the status quo?  You can protest but only in unobtrusive ways so that the majority doesn't have to be inconvenienced or even take notice? Are people really okay with what is going on?

[Sneezyone]

I think standing with a hand over a heart is respectful. Kneeling seems quite respectful, too, in any context I've heard. While I'm not sure it's a choice I'd make, it seems to be a type of quiet, calm but respectful protest.

 

I think sitting down and holding a fist up are disrespectful choices. If people want to show that disrespect, they are free to do so. The NFL and its fans also have a right to issue a consequence for that behavior whether it is to fire the player, not renew a contract and the fans can stop viewing or attending the games. So, there's freedom on all sides here.

 

Also, the term slactivism comes to mind. See further explanation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slacktivism    I'd think highly of those respectfully protesting if they're doing something to further race relations or make specific measures furthering the discussion on race relations or police misconduct. However, simply kneeling or sitting or fist raising with a group of people who are doing likewise, isn't taking much of a stand.

 

It's somewhat similar to someone "liking" or "sharing" their social outrage on Facebook or other social media. That don't make you a force for social change. 

 

I see a lot more slactivism from people who don't want to turn off the TV than from the people on the field, many of whom have individual charities that do a lot for their communities. See LeBron James, Stephen Curry, etc. Have you looked into what these athletes do in their off time? Also note, they're not all millionaires, particularly in the NFL where careers are short and the league minimum is $450K.

[Corraleno]

It does come down to the meaning of the symbol, though.  The flag, to me, is so intricately tied to sacrifice that I can't separate it, and find myself horrified when I see it used otherwise.  It is like spitting on the graves because to me it symbolizes the dead, all the way from the Revolution until now.  Each person who died for freedom is symbolized in those red stripes.  I know the white and blue have meaning, too, but it is the red that stands out.  It's war, it's caskets, it's the dead.  It's the most honorable and undefiled symbol we have as Americans.  It is honorable and undefiled because it is what represents all the things we wish we were, and all the things we have tried to be.  And the red runs by those who have sacrificed themselves for something bigger than themselves.   We stand and honor the flag because it symbolizes all the very best things.  The flag isn't about claiming we are the best, it's about understanding that each individual, in each generation, has to commit ourselves to this "unfinished work,"  and our flag is the symbol of that goodness.   We should be united under that.  So when a person chooses to ignore the traditional way of respecting that flag and chooses instead to kneel, it cuts pretty deep.    

 

 

What about the millions of slaves whose entire lives were sacrificed to increase the wealth of a country that considered them little more than livestock? What about the sacrifice of African-American soldiers who fought and died for American "freedom" only to return to a country where they were treated as 2nd class citizens? Were their deaths less sacrificial than those of white soldiers? Should they not also be honored by working towards a country where all men really do have equal rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? We owe it to ALL the people whose lives were sacrificed in building this country to ensure that all citizens have equal access to all the rights our ancestors fought and died for.

[MEmama]

I've never understood this either. What is the point of playing the anthem before a sporting event?

It's done the world over. It's not an American quirk.

 

I suppose anthems are used to instill a feeling of solidarity, like chanting your home team's rally cry or whatever. It can be both positive and negative, depending.

[Sneezyone]

Thanks for posting that, Sneezy.

 

The thing I find particularly frustrating is that there seems to be no acceptable way to confront this issue of systemic racism. If people think there is no acceptable way to raise awareness, are they really just saying that they prefer the status quo?  You can protest but only in unobtrusive ways so that the majority doesn't have to be inconvenienced or even take notice? Are people really okay with what is going on?

 

This is the conclusion I've drawn. Most folks, it seems, want athletes to be silent so they don't have to avert their eyes. They are angry that they cannot avert their eyes without giving up an entertainment activity that they enjoy. How sad is that? They care more about watching a sport than the men and women playing it.

[Guest]

On the socks, for context: http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-colin-kaepernick-socks-20160901-snap-htmlstory.html

Pfft. Yes, that is what he said. That's not what the gesture actually communicated to the public, by and large. And the timing couldn't have been worse. Again, these gestures aren't actually speaking with the clarity they seem to think, and bluegoat covered that quite well. It's just repetitive at this point.

 

Sigh. Channel flip. That's the response from the more measured NFL fans I know.

 

 

I don't disagree with the premise - innocent people, or suspects not resisting arrest, need to not be shot. Full stop. The disproportionate amount of this happening to black men is ghastly awful, and there is no way to defensible suggest it is warranted use of force in even most of these cases. The details don't support that. It is something I'd expect to see in a segregated third world country and not, say, Lafayette or Pittsburgh. But taking a knee during the anthem until... some magical day when no one ever dies?... is not only against the rules of the NFL, but it's losing efficacy except to drive away at least some fans. And no, the fans don't want black men dying either and aren't racist. That's a silly assumption. What they do want is to watch a game, not a political protest, every flipping time a team hits the turf.

[EmseB]

On the socks, for context: http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-colin-kaepernick-socks-20160901-snap-htmlstory.html

Context for pig police socks. Okay. He seems to be saying that if they are good cops they shouldn't worry about it because he's only calling the bad cops pigs. Hmm, that's an interesting argument.

[Lisa R.]

I see a lot more slactivism from people who don't want to turn off the TV than from the people on the field, many of whom have individual charities that do a lot for their communities. See LeBron James, Stephen Curry, etc. Have you looked into what these athletes do in their off time? Also note, they're not all millionaires, particularly in the NFL where careers are short and the league minimum is $450K.

I agree that many of these athletes are active in their community and generous with their time and resources.

 

My point is if the only protest or action is the sitting on the bench or holding a fair, it's not much action.

 

Again, I don't find those that take a knee disrespectful.

[Sneezyone]

Context for pig police socks. Okay. He seems to be saying that if they are good cops they shouldn't worry about it because he's only calling the bad cops pigs. Hmm, that's an interesting argument.

 

I'm sorry but you do realize Michael Bennett had a gun held to his head, right? How would you feel if this were happening to your friends and relatives?

Edited September 25, 2017 by Sneezyone

[Guest]

This is the conclusion I've drawn. Most folks, it seems, want athletes to be silent so they don't have to avert their eyes. They are angry that they cannot avert their eyes without giving up an entertainment activity that they enjoy. How sad is that? They care more about watching a sport than the men and women playing it.

Of course they do. IT'S A SPORT. It's about the game, not the views of the people playing it. They also care more about gourmet coffee than saving seals for the owner of Starbucks. And they care more about rock music and punk than an impromptu rant against fascism. Football is a product in the public sphere, being sold and marketed. The players make absolute bank off that.

 

Once you annoy your consumer, your days of prosperity from their pocketbooks are numbered. This is nothing new to any advertiser or production team and it shouldn't shock Goodell, either.

 

His issues with the league are more complicated than that, but this is an area he is choosing to shoot himself in the foot by not enforcing his own rules (when he has done so in over the top fashion in other areas, as has been noted up thread).

 

The politicization of sports (and everything) is becoming a huge problem. ESPN is hemmorhaging viewers, and the NFL is only part of the issue. There is a broader sports culture and commentary issue at play and the fans are fed up.

[Sneezyone]

I agree that many of these athletes are active in their community and generous with their time and resources.

 

My point is if the only protest or action is the sitting on the bench or holding a fair, it's not much action.

 

Again, I don't find those that take a knee disrespectful.

 

What's happening on the field is not the only form of protest. It never has been. So mentioning the off the field actions as if they arent' also occurring is a bit of a distraction.

[EmseB]

I'm sorry but you do realize Michael Bennett had a gun held to his head, right? How would you feel if this were happening to your friends and relatives?

That has nothing to do with wearing cartoon pigs dressed as police on one's socks.

[Sneezyone]

Of course they do. IT'S A SPORT. It's about the game, not the views of the people playing it. They also care more about gourmet coffee than saving seals for the owner of Starbucks. And they care more about rock music and punk than an impromptu rant against fascism. Football is a product in the public sphere, being sold and marketed. The players make absolute bank off that.

 

Once you annoy your consumer, your days of prosperity from their pocketbooks are numbered. This is nothing new to any advertiser or production team and it shouldn't shock Goodell, either.

 

His issues with the league are more complicated than that, but this is an area he is choosing to shoot himself in the foot by not enforcing his own rules (when he has done so in over the top fashion in other areas, as has been noted up thread).

 

The politicization of sports (and everything) is becoming a huge problem. ESPN is hemmorhaging viewers, and the NFL is only part of the issue. There is a broader sports culture and commentary issue at play and the fans are fed up.

 

Sport has never been non-political. EVER. It wasn't non-political for Jessie Owens or Althea Gibson, or Serena Williams, or Jackie Robinson, or Jack Johnson, or Muhammed Ali, or John Carlos, or Kareem Abdul Jabar, or or or. It's  always been one of the few, public forums where minorities could gain access to masses of eyeballs and use it to raise awareness and advocate various causes. And yet somehow, someway, the people watch. And they come back for more.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

That has nothing to do with wearing cartoon pigs dressed as police on one's socks.

 

Says you or says the person wearing them? You would be perfectly content to say nothing in word, deed, clothing choices or anything else in the face of that kind of interaction?

[bibiche]

 And no, the fans don't want black men dying either and aren't racist. That's a silly assumption. What they do want is to watch a game, not a political protest, every flipping time a team hits the turf.

 

Listening to reactions from a great number of NFL fans leads me to a very, very different assumption.  

 

Seeing someone kneel rather than stand for the national anthem is a huge inconvenience for them? Let's contrast that to the real-life experience of minorities in America being afraid for their lives every time they are pulled over.  I think the fans can deal with a little inconvenience.

Edited September 25, 2017 by bibiche

[Guest]

Well sneezy, do you think people watched for their politics or in spite of it?

 

Yeah.

 

Add to that the changing tastes of the public, and the desire for the sport in spite of the political claptrap is lessening by the week. And no, it isn't just football.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[AppleGreen]

Read the piece. And while I respect his right to do it, generally, I also have the option of tuning out. its obnoxious and changes nothing but the bottom line of their own paychecks. It won't save lives. It won't change minds.

 

Go protest somewhere other than the sport or concert or album I'm paying for, or I'm not paying for it anymore. There are more the a handful of artists I won't buy anymore who couldn't manage to keep political opinions to a simmer instead of a roar in their products. I'm no big fan of football, but between that and the ridiculousness with the NFL's advertising, rules, and more than a handful of players, themselves, I won't watch even the Super Bowl anymore.

 

It's getting beyond ridiculous and is making more fans mad than sympathetic, from what I can see. It was a good piece and I think meant genuinely. But the protesting is just getting over the top I don't think the president's comments helped that either, but this isn't a new annoyance.

 

But just because you don't think it will change anything, doesn't mean it doesn't have value. These are national figures who are trying to use their platform to educate and respond to an issue that has deep, deep roots. We are *still* having this conversation 50+ years after the Civil Rights Movement. You can certainly choose not to spend your money or time supporting the NFL or artists or whomever, but they can certainly exercise their right to protest, even if it "doesn't change minds."

 

I don't get the judgement people are putting out: "Why do this? It won't change things. There are more effective ways to get the message across." I think when the fight seems so utterly hopeless, just doing something, anything to get the conversation started (or keeping it going) feels like movement. Kaepernick started this protest over a year ago. One man, quietly making a statement. Here we are 13 months later and a big chunk of the nation is talking about it. Change takes time and patience. Sometimes it isn't until we have the ability to look back that we can see where the sparks of change were lit. Maybe this will be a spark. I think only history and time will tell.

 

Don't most protests look over the top depending on your vantage point? I am sure an entire community refusing to ride segregated buses looked pretty damn over the top to a whole bunch of people.

[Sneezyone]

Well sneezy, do you think people watched for their politics or in spite of it?

 

Yeah.

 

Add to that the changing tastes of the public, and the desire for the sport in spite of the political claptrap is lessening by the week. And no, it isn't just football.

 

I would encourage those individuals to exercise their freedom and right to turn off the TV rather than hurling epithets and death threats at the athletes.

[historically accurate]

I think standing with a hand over a heart is respectful. Kneeling seems quite respectful, too, in any context I've heard. While I'm not sure it's a choice I'd make, it seems to be a type of quiet, calm but respectful protest.

 

I think sitting down and holding a fist up are disrespectful choices. If people want to show that disrespect, they are free to do so. The NFL and its fans also have a right to issue a consequence for that behavior whether it is to fire the player, not renew a contract and the fans can stop viewing or attending the games. So, there's freedom on all sides here.

 

Also, the term slactivism comes to mind. See further explanation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slacktivism    I'd think highly of those respectfully protesting if they're doing something to further race relations or make specific measures furthering the discussion on race relations or police misconduct. However, simply kneeling or sitting or fist raising with a group of people who are doing likewise, isn't taking much of a stand.

 

It's somewhat similar to someone "liking" or "sharing" their social outrage on Facebook or other social media. That don't make you a force for social change. 

Kaepernick is not a slacker in the activism arena; he's shooting for $1M donated to minority/oppressed. If he was only taking a knee, yeah, you could talk about slacktivism. Until it blew up this weekend, this wasn't a widespread movement. I don't think the term applies to the original person. 

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/8/23/16189462/colin-kaepernicks-foundation-donates-another-100000-to-j-cole-and-others

 

Note: I only watch sports because DH watches sports, and we only have 1 TV. I find it weird we play the national anthem before sporting events. Honestly, I have a hard time seeing kneeling as disrespectful to anyone. 

[EmseB]

Says you or says the person wearing them? You would be perfectly content to say nothing in word, deed, clothing choices or anything else in the face of that kind of interaction?

The options are not cartoon pig police (immature name calling and unintelligent attention seeking) or nothing at all.

[Laurie4b]

On the socks, for context: http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-colin-kaepernick-socks-20160901-snap-htmlstory.html

 

 

I had not heard of the socks, but I don't agree with calling cops pigs either symbolically or as a word. It was an unfortunate choice whatever he "meant" it to mean. And whether it should be or not, it does become problematic when one is advocating a cause. I used to work as a guardian ad litem for children in foster care. My supervisor had been a whistle blower in the military a few decades ago and had survived with her career intact. She told me something that has always stuck with me: "When you are advocating for a cause, for change, against established power, you must keep your nose 100% clean. If you have 95% of your facts correct and just 5% wrong, it will be used to discredit everything you are saying."  

 

While I don't agree at all with the pig socks, I also think that Kapernick has grown. He went from sitting to kneeling, for instance,  in response to a discussion with someone else---I believe someone with military background. That is something to be honored. We should all strive to be the kind of people who can take in feedback and change.  

 

I am deeply, deeply concerned about police brutality and overuse of force in this country, however, and so while I don't like pig socks they are hardly the issue. I am especially concerned about the greater use of force against poc and also  the mentally ill.  I am frustrated with writing and calling representatives. I have had state representatives (poc themselves as it happens) tell me our state's standards for police training are just fine thank you very much. They are not. 

 

Police brutality is sheer bullying whether from racial or merely the " I am the biggest alpha dog around here" kind of person. LEO with those traits cannot be reliably rehabilitated and shouldn't be anywhere near law enforcement. 

 

But there is a different issue in the use of unnecessary force that doesn't necessarily reflect a character flaw but rather a deficit in training.  Implicit racism,  for instance,  affects all the colors of people and can be the difference between life and death in that split second when a decision must be made as to whether to fire or not. People can have implicit racism and be very much against racism . It's a subconscious thing. Good training can reduce implicit racism and its effects. It should be required by all states. It protects poc but it also protects good and decent officers from shooting an innocent person and having to live with that.  It's a win-win. 

 

Another area in which training can make a major difference is in use of de-escalation tactics. In many, many instances in which an officer has eventually drawn and fired killing a suspect,, it was the officer who escalated the situation or didn't attempt to de-escalate.  After training, that should be grounds for firing whether it results in a death or not. And regular updated training in de-escalation should be required with the same regularity that updated training in marksmanship is required. LEO who can de-escalate a situation are safer themselves. Again, it is a win-win. 

 

I have not worked as LEO, but I have worked in mental health with the most violent teens in our state who also had either developmental disabilities or some form of mental illness. We were trained to de-escalate situations. We were allowed to use a measure of force to protect ourselves, but never to hurt a client. Our physical well being depended on our skill at de-escalation and we would have been fired and likely prosecuted for any unnecessary use of force. There is no reason why LEO can't have the same type of training. Our mlitary gets similar training for use in civilian areas even in war zones. We really can do much better. 

[Guest]

I would encourage those individuals to exercise their freedom and right to turn off the TV rather than hurling epithets and death threats at the athletes.

I agree completely. I'm seeing people walk with their remotes and shoes and dollars to other forms of entertainment and that is what I'm speaking to. Threatening individuals, explicit or implicit, is never an acceptable response to speech.

 

That's my opposition to the anti fascist junk as well. When you start throwing things and hitting people, no matter how vile what you think they believe is, its indefensible in my eyes.

 

Advertising dollars and walking. Tickets aren't selling. People won't buy the sports channel packages on cable and satellite anymore. We shall see how the league and the networks respond to the consumer pressure.

[Sneezyone]

The options are not cartoon pig police (immature name calling and unintelligent attention seeking) or nothing at all.

 

Again, WHAT OPTIONS ARE ACCEPTABLE TO YOU?

 

Wait, let's add satire to the list of unacceptable ones first.

 

No kneeling, tee-shirt wearing, speechifying, tweeting, fist-raising, sitting...

 

anything else?

[Carol in Cal.]

Speaking up is what's drawing criticism.

 

Sharing is leading to death threats. An athlete recently had a gun held to his head by LEOs in NV. His sharing was not welcomed.

 

Volunteering is being done too. Kapernick and Sherman, in particular, have volunteered and donated extensively. They've raised millions, more than prominent politicians.

 

Serving, how so?

 

Praying. Are they required to be theists to be advocates?

 

Loving? How does that help them not get shot?

Edited by moderator - personal attack

 

What, to you, would be an acceptable answer to your question?  I took it seriously and answered it gently,  So what should I have said?  What should I do?  Should I elbow my way into a sports arena and take a knee? 

 

I

[Janeway]

A piece by Eric Reid on why he and Colin Kaepernick decided to take a knee:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0

 

I hope people take the time to read it and think about this issue.

I don't buy his story. I think he is changing things after the fact because it got so much attention. But you don't sit during the anthem to protest anything except your own freedom and the people who died and sacrificed to get it for you. I have no respect for these people. I think they should be deployed for a couple years and make them fight for their freedom and the lives of everyone and then see how much they want to boycott the anthem. Edited September 25, 2017 by Janeway

[Guest]

Quote deleted by moderator

 

 

100%. There aren't enough likes for this.

[EmseB]

Again, WHAT OPTIONS ARE ACCEPTABLE TO YOU?

 

Wait, let's add satire to the list of unacceptable ones first.

 

No kneeling, tee-shirt wearing, speechifying, tweeting, fist-raising, sitting...

 

anything else?

I think you're confusing me with someone else. Or at the least putting words in my mouth I did not say. I actually said I thought kneeling was a fine gesture.

 

edited by moderator

response to personal comment

Edited September 25, 2017 by emzhengjiu

[Sneezyone]

quoted material deleted by moderator

 

How was that a potshot? It's a legitimate question, Carol, and I am not furious.

 

If you think I care a hill of beans about grandstanding on this issue you are sorely mistaken. I CARE ABOUT THE LIVES OF MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS. Full stop. No exceptions. None of this foolishness is anything in the face of those innocent lives.

 

I am asking you how prayer alone is going to save my son.

 

I am asking you how 'serving' is going to save my husband.

 

I am asking you what my family is supposed to do to protect ourselves from people who fear us because we are black and those who would prefer we just not talk about it, as if that will make it go away.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Sneezyone

[Laurie4b]

Pfft. Yes, that is what he said. That's not what the gesture actually communicated to the public, by and large. And the timing couldn't have been worse. Again, these gestures aren't actually speaking with the clarity they seem to think, and bluegoat covered that quite well. It's just repetitive at this point.

 

Sigh. Channel flip. That's the response from the more measured NFL fans I know.

 

 

I don't disagree with the premise - innocent people, or suspects not resisting arrest, need to not be shot. Full stop. The disproportionate amount of this happening to black men is ghastly awful, and there is no way to defensible suggest it is warranted use of force in even most of these cases. The details don't support that. It is something I'd expect to see in a segregated third world country and not, say, Lafayette or Pittsburgh. But taking a knee during the anthem until... some magical day when no one ever dies?... is not only against the rules of the NFL, but it's losing efficacy except to drive away at least some fans. And no, the fans don't want black men dying either and aren't racist. That's a silly assumption. What they do want is to watch a game, not a political protest, every flipping time a team hits the turf.

 

Ok. So what is the relative weight of the bolded vs. the issue of taking a knee during a sports activity? 

 

Kapernick has given significant amounts of income to charity, for instance, well before "taking a knee." He appears to be keenly interested in the good of his fellow men all round. He appears to be a man of deeply held convictions and well... goodness. 

 

But let's leave Kapernick out of it for the time being. Since we agree on the boldedL  What should everyday Americans like you, me, our family and friends DO about the fact that it keeps happening? 

[Sneezyone]

I think you're confusing me with someone else. Or at the least putting words in my mouth I did not say. I actually said I thought kneeling was a fine gesture.

 

edited my moderator

 

My apologies. Kneeling is OK for you, just not satire. Got it.

[bibiche]

quoted material deleted by moderator

 

I didn't get that at all from Sneezy's post. 

[Guest]

Laurie. We can't do anything. We control our own thoughts and how we raise our families. We do what we already are in teaching human dignity, respect, and the values of America in allowing diversity of opinion as an expression of freedom. When we are able we vote against individuals furthering nepotism and abuses of power in their offices, especially on a local level. And we keep raising the next generation to think and act better.

 

But we were already doing that. Before Baltimore. Before Kaepernick. I am not shooting black men. My kids aren't shooting anyone either. And we cannot stop every unnecessary bullet from a gun we wouldn't fire, ourselves, in the same circumstance. There is very little else to do that isn't just moneymaking off victims and attention grabbing for, what, public shaming? Annoying people who are sympathetic and agree with you? Calling people racists who know their own motivations better than you ever will?

 

All this does is bounce off the real racists, feed the machine of violence and anger that repays wrongs with more wrong, and inoculates and inures those who are sympathetic until they hit emotional exhaustion and tune out.

 

 

 

 

For the record, bibiche and others, I'm in the lattermost group.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Arctic Mama