On "taking a knee"

[EmseB]

So, he originally sat. That was disrespectful, so after talking to a veteran he switched to the one knee thing, which is a sign of respect in football. That was also called disrespectful. Other players said fine, we won't sit, or kneel. We will stand, like you want, but hold a fist up. That was also called disrespectful. They can't win, unless they just don't challenge anything at all.

 

But just as people are free to protest, people are free to react to the protest. They are free to say they disagree or say that they wish it wouldn't happen during entertainment they've paid for, or free to not watch the NFL, or, or, or. Free speech and taking a stand means dealing with the blow back (as far as the blow back is also speech, I'm not considering the aforementioned threats of violence or actual violence). Edited September 25, 2017 by EmseB

[Guest]

Correlanlo, I addressed every one of your points in previous posts. - they make millions selling a commodity for entertainment. The audience is walking away with their dollars because they've hit saturation point on what they'll tolerate in sports political commentaries. This isn't just s football issue, as I talked about above.

 

You can level accusations of racism all you want, but it doesn't make it so. This is exactly why so many people are exhausted and just don't care anymore.

 

That sucking sound are the ratings going down the drain. I wonder if that will make Goodell enforce the rules. How low can it go before money talks?

Edited September 25, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[ktgrok]

But just as people are free to protest, people are free to react to the protest. They are free to say they disagree or say that they wish it wouldn't happen during entertainment they've paid for, or free to not watch the NFL, or, or, or. Free speech and taking a stand means dealing with the blow back (as far as the blow back is also speech, I'm not considering the aforementioned threats of violence or actual violence).

 

Yes. It shouldn't include people calling them names. It can, and does, but it shouldn't. And it shouldn't be called "badgering". 

[Joker]

I don't have a problem with taking a knee. Dh served, both of our dads did, my bil is currently serving, all of our grandfathers did, the list goes on.

 

Dh doesn't see it at all as disrespect for him or the military. He actually wondered when the anthem and flag became only about the military instead of the people.

 

Ds quit saying the pledge in school a while ago. He has his reasons, they are valid, and we support his decision. Today, he and a large group of students not only didn't say the pledge but they also took a knee.

 

People are talking and some are becoming more aware. That's a good thing.

[PineFarmMom]

I wonder why Tim Tebow got so much flack for bowing the knee but this is ok? I don't care for football and I think there are way worse problems in our nation than some spoiled, wealthy football player protesting. I also think too much is being made of this but it shows our perverse worship, as a nation, of all things football. It's also weird to me to use an act of submission, kneeling, to protest?

 

Praise God for our real heroes, the soldiers who fight for our rights. 🇱🇷

[Caroline]

The problem is not a lone sinning racist. The problem is systemic racism in police departments across this country.

 

My people protesting abortions were trying to help women find another way. Individuals walking into the clinics. Not random yelling with signs of burned baby carcasses. This, I endorse.

 

What deed is being done in darkness that this particular effort is particularly exposing that we didn't know about and agree with, as a culture? The lone sinning racist in the audience isn't shamed by this because he is more in love with his sin that aware of his need to repent of it.

 

 

This isn't that complicated. And I'm a realist. I hope for the best, of course, but these actions are actually proving counterproductive. The numbers speak for themselves.

[Guest]

Correlanlo, I addressed every one of your points in previous posts. - they make millions selling a commodity for entertainment. The audience is walking away with their dollars because they've hit saturation point on what they'll tolerate in sports political commentaries. This isn't just s football issue, as I talked about above.

 

You can level accusations of racism all you want, but it doesn't make it so. This is exactly why so many people are exhausted and just don't care anymore.

 

That sucking sound are the ratings going down the drain. I wonder if that will make Goodell enforce the rules. How low can it go before money talks?

Not quite sure single-digit ratings decrease in the midst of hurricane season and incomplete streaming numbers constitutes "going down the drain".

 

Thankfully, Goodell seems to have a reasonable head on his shoulders, along with several team owners.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/maddieberg/2017/09/25/as-trump-attacks-nfl-weekend-ratings-are-mixed/#77c1f26ace16 Not linking for political reasons, but for the numbers.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

The argument that "their audience aren't their enemy" is specious. The nice people who don't personally pull a trigger, perpetuate systemic racism on a regular basis in the voting booth. Judicial and penal systems, housing, education, and other institutions are systemically racist, which could not continue through the years without ritualistic reupholstering by the....majority.

[Guest]

I had to read (for the first time!) MLK's Letter from a Birmingham Jail last week and I think it could have been written about present day.

 

"You deplore the demonstrations that are presently taking place in Birmingham. But I am sorry that your statement did not express a similar concern for the conditions that brought the demonstrations into being....Its ugly record of police brutality is known in every section of this country. Its unjust treatment of Negroes in the courts is a notorious reality....

I MUST make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time; and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

Edited September 25, 2017 by WendyAndMilo

[maize]

 

Praise God for our real heroes, the soldiers who fight for our rights. 🇱🇷

This is also a way of fighting for the right to life and dignity.

 

I'm a military veteran. I perceive this particular protest as honorable.

[Corraleno]

Correlanlo, I addressed every one of your points in previous posts. - they make millions selling a commodity for entertainment. The audience is walking away with their dollars because they've hit saturation point on what they'll tolerate in sports political commentaries. This isn't just s football issue, as I talked about above.

 

You can level accusations of racism all you want, but it doesn't make it so. This is exactly why so many people are exhausted and just don't care anymore.

 

That sucking sound are the ratings going down the drain. I wonder if that will make Goodell enforce the rules. How low can it go before money talks?

 

You do realize that many of the people boycotting the NFL right now are doing so in support of the protests, right? Do you think that firing all 150+ players who took a knee yesterday, including some of the best players in the league, is going to totally fix the ratings problem? In fact, it would just drive away millions more viewers on the other side of the issue.

 

Goodell himself came out on the side of the players' right to protest, as did almost all of the owners. Trump's profane rant against the protesters is getting far more blowback than Kaepernick's original protest did.

 

A third factor in the ratings issue is the research on CTE, which is making many people pull away from football and switch to other sports. How that will play out, and whether it's even fixable, remains to be seen. But you are naive if you think the NFL ratings problem is entirely the result of white people being offended by players taking a knee.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I wonder why Tim Tebow got so much flack for bowing the knee but this is ok? I don't care for football and I think there are way worse problems in our nation than some spoiled, wealthy football player protesting. I also think too much is being made of this but it shows our perverse worship, as a nation, of all things football. It's also weird to me to use an act of submission, kneeling, to protest?

Praise God for our real heroes, the soldiers who fight for our rights. 🇱🇷

Where to begin! What an inside out, yet uninformed perspective!

 

Have you not followed any of the links in this thread about the reason for kneeling as a sign of protest? It's been explained, all over every discussion everywhere. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

 

Concerning the soldiers, the real heroes, you must have also missed the many (including nonagenarian WW2 vets) explaining that they fought and died for freedom of speech, freedom to protest, and the rest of our constitutional rights. Also, there are veterans among the protestors.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[8circles]

This thread is eye-opening.

 

As a Xian, I cannot fathom continuously lamenting sports ratings declining and bewailing the reminder of injustice in my own country because I'm just tired of hearing about it and I just want to be entertained.

 

Lord, have mercy.

 

Some people might want to re-evaluate what it means to be not racist.

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by 8circles

[Ali in OR]

I have a problem with the idea that love of country can only be expressed by standing with hand over heart during the national anthem. I see the protest as a love of country deep enough to not ignore its problems but to try to raise awareness in an effort to make it a better place to live. Truly making America great would be making it a fair, respectful, loving, and supportive place to live. For everyone.

[Pawz4me]

 

That sucking sound are the ratings going down the drain. I wonder if that will make Goodell enforce the rules. How low can it go before money talks?

 

The NFL (and professional sports in general) are in nowhere near the sad shape you're trying to say they are.  Not even close.

 

There are some issues. They are multi-factorial and most are long standing and have little to nothing to do with the protests.

[PineFarmMom]

Never mind. I don't have time to argue so I'm not.

Edited September 26, 2017 by PineFarmMom

[MercyA]

I wonder why Tim Tebow got so much flack for bowing the knee but this is ok? I don't care for football and I think there are way worse problems in our nation than some spoiled, wealthy football player protesting. I also think too much is being made of this but it shows our perverse worship, as a nation, of all things football. It's also weird to me to use an act of submission, kneeling, to protest?

 

Praise God for our real heroes, the soldiers who fight for our rights. 🇱🇷

 

I look at the reaction to these protests, though, and see more than the worship of football. I see idolatry in the form of nationalism.

Edited September 25, 2017 by MercyA

[brehon]

Sure theyvcan feel how they want, I bet they wouldnt be acting like that if they had served their country.

 

edited by moderator

inflammatory

I come from a very long line of military veterans on both sides of my family. In fact, I am the first generation not to serve in some capacity in nigh on two centuries. My grandfather also fought in WWII and Korea and Vietnam. Were he still alive he would absolutely defend those players' right to take a knee during the national anthem, especially if he disagreed with their stance.

 

The right to peaceful protest is one of the shining beacons of our country. It is also, I think, one of the hardest to uphold.

[Laurie4b]

A private employer has the right to impose restrictions on their employees' expressions during work hours. The first amendment does not limit the employer's right to do so.

But the government (and its representatives) does NOT have the right to impose, or call for, restrictions on a person's expression. The first amendment speaks very clearly to that.

 

However I am not sure that a private employer has a right to require an employee to engage in political speech not intrinsically related to the job (eg someone working for a political party for instance.) The players were forced by their employer into a particular symbolic political speech: standing and hand over heart for the national anthem. Some peacefully declined. I think there is a difference between saying they can require employees not to initiate political speech vs. require them to engage in political speech. I could be wrong on the legality however. It would be an interesting SCOTUS case. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Such a humble response. I'm not uninformed. I don't like people disrespecting this country, especially while they are being paid more in one year than I will see in a lifetime. JJ Watt knows how to speak with his position and do good using his name.

I wasn't trying to be humble. Peaceful protestors are humble.

 

What is the dollar figure that one must earn before one can afford to stop caring about his countrymen?

[Guest]

Such a humble response. I'm not uninformed. I don't like people disrespecting this country, especially while they are being paid more in one year than I will see in a lifetime. JJ Watt knows how to speak with his position and do good using his name.

You do realize that JJ Watt has been quoted as supporting his brothers who kneel, right?  And instead of saying the pledge with hand over heart, he locked arms in solidarity...

[catz]

Such a humble response. I'm not uninformed. I don't like people disrespecting this country, especially while they are being paid more in one year than I will see in a lifetime. JJ Watt knows how to speak with his position and do good using his name.

 

I don't see what difference it makes what they earn?  They are using their visibility to bring awareness to an important issue.

 

Colin Kapernick is also reaching out to communities to affect positive change in ways other than taking the knee.  http://kaepernick7.com/

[EmseB]

Yes. It shouldn't include people calling them names. It can, and does, but it shouldn't. And it shouldn't be called "badgering".

But that's just the point. People who perceive it as badgering can call it badgering. You can disagree. Should or shouldn't is a matter of opinion.

 

You saying that it shouldn't be called badgering is the same as someone saying people shouldn't be protesting by taking a knee.

[ktgrok]

But that's just the point. People who perceive it as badgering can call it badgering. You can disagree. Should or shouldn't is a matter of opinion.

 

You saying that it shouldn't be called badgering is the same as someone saying people shouldn't be protesting by taking a knee.

Oh, I know. He has the right to protest. They have the right to say he is badgering them. I have the right to call BS on that. 

[EmseB]

Surely the military can find better use for the $12 million they have spent so far bribing NFL owners to promote the falsehood that the American flag represents the US military instead of the 300 million people, in all their diversity, who live in this country.

Do you have a source for this? The dollar figure paid to NFL owners, I mean.

[Laurie4b]

My people protesting abortions were trying to help women find another way. Individuals walking into the clinics. Not random yelling with signs of burned baby carcasses. This, I endorse.

 

What deed is being done in darkness that this particular effort is particularly exposing that we didn't know about and agree with, as a culture? The lone sinning racist in the audience isn't shamed by this because he is more in love with his sin that aware of his need to repent of it.

 

 

This isn't that complicated. And I'm a realist. I hope for the best, of course, but these actions are actually proving counterproductive. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

 

Laurie. We can't do anything. We control our own thoughts and how we raise our families. We do what we already are in teaching human dignity, respect, and the values of America in allowing diversity of opinion as an expression of freedom. When we are able we vote against individuals furthering nepotism and abuses of power in their offices, especially on a local level. And we keep raising the next generation to think and act better.

 

But we were already doing that. Before Baltimore. Before Kaepernick. I am not shooting black men. My kids aren't shooting anyone either. And we cannot stop every unnecessary bullet from a gun we wouldn't fire, ourselves, in the same circumstance. There is very little else to do that isn't just moneymaking off victims and attention grabbing for, what, public shaming? Annoying people who are sympathetic and agree with you? Calling people racists who know their own motivations better than you ever will?

 

All this does is bounce off the real racists, feed the machine of violence and anger that repays wrongs with more wrong, and inoculates and inures those who are sympathetic until they hit emotional exhaustion and tune out.

 

 

 

 

For the record, bibiche and others, I'm in the lattermost group.

 

 

Have you ever communicated with a state legislator about the issue of police and overuse of force? Called your local law enforcement office to find out what kind of training they get?  Listened to friends of color describe their experiences when they go into a store? Gone into the store where they've had those experiences and asked to speak to the manager about it? Engaged with not only your children but your church, family,, and friends to help further their understanding a little more? Could you give a good explanation of implicit racism to a friend who thought all incidents were rogue cops or just terribly unfortunate misunderstandings?  Have you written to Bible publishers whose illustrations are various iterations of white coloring (blond, redhead, brunette) rather than either people who look like Middle Eastern Jews or people who like all the kingdom of God? 

 

I applaud what you are doing with your own kids, but to address the insidious forms of racism that exist, one has to address a different level to make a difference. 

 

Maybe it would help if you thought about it from your prolife experience. You said your people were protesting. Why? Why not just not have an abortion themselves and teach their kids not to? Why do more?  You said they were trying to help women find a better way. Why can't we try to help the good and dedicated people in our law enforcement find a better way? Why can't we call legislators to urge them to find a better way by passing laws that would make a difference by requiring training directly addressing implicit racism & de-escalation and making it more possible for rogue officers to be prosecuted?  

 

All meaningful societal change from changes in how we treat the mentally ill to women's suffrage to labor laws to civil rights movement, to MADD etc. have required direct attempts to influence the larger systems as well as individual change. 

Have you ever communicated with a state legislator about the issue of police and overuse of force? Called your local law enforcement office to find out what kind of training they get?  Listened to friends of color describe their experiences when they go into a store? Gone into the store where they've had those experiences and asked to speak to the manager about it? Engaged with not only your children but your church, family,, and friends to help further their understanding a little more? Could you give a good explanation of implicit racism to a friend who thought all incidents were rogue cops or just terribly unfortunate misunderstandings?  Have you written to Bible publishers whose illustrations are various iterations of white coloring (blond, redhead, brunette) rather than either people who look like Middle Eastern Jews or people who like all the kingdom of God? 

 

I applaud what you are doing with your own kids, but to address the insidious forms of racism that exist, one has to address a different level to make a difference. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Laurie4b

[Joker]

For those who say it's in the NFL rules that they have to be on the field and stand with hand over heart, I've read in many places that it is completely false. The rule book supposedly never even mentions the anthem or the flag and it was a fake post going around.

 

Not sure if true but I've read it in several reliable sources where the fake post just seems to be sent around by various people.

[Guest]

The NFL (and professional sports in general) are in nowhere near the sad shape you're trying to say they are. Not even close.

 

There are some issues. They are multi-factorial and most are long standing and have little to nothing to do with the protests.

Eh, from a decade ago? They're bad. Two decades ago it's even worse. And I mentioned multiple factors previously. I agree on that point. But for whatever reason this seems to be the saturation point and is tipping a lot of people who were hanging in there.

 

It's not just football. But football is the big bad, the moneymaker. And espn is hurting terribly for their politicization of pretty much everything. Great WSJ article on that today, actually...

[Guest]

For those who say it's in the NFL rules that they have to be on the field and stand with hand over heart, I've read in many places that it is completely false. The rule book supposedly never even mentions the anthem or the flag and it was a fake post going around.

 

Not sure if true but I've read it in several reliable sources where the fake post just seems to be sent around by various people.

Prove it false. I gave a line citation, so it should be easy enough to hunt down.

[Guest]

Do you have a source for this? The dollar figure paid to NFL owners, I mean.

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/nation/2015/11/06/Department-of-Defense-paid-53-million-to-pro-sports-for-military-tributes-report-says/stories/201511060140

 

http://www.snopes.com/nfl-sideline-anthem/

[bibiche]

What Laurie4b said (post #186). There *are* things that can be done.

Edited September 27, 2017 by bibiche
Removed unnecessary name calling.

[Guest]

Have you ever communicated with a state legislator about the issue of police and overuse of force? Called your local law enforcement office to find out what kind of training they get? Listened to friends of color describe their experiences when they go into a store? Gone into the store where they've had those experiences and asked to speak to the manager about it? Engaged with not only your children but your church, family,, and friends to help further their understanding a little more? Could you give a good explanation of implicit racism to a friend who thought all incidents were rogue cops or just terribly unfortunate misunderstandings? Have you written to Bible publishers whose illustrations are various iterations of white coloring (blond, redhead, brunette) rather than either people who look like Middle Eastern Jews or people who like all the kingdom of God?

 

I applaud what you are doing with your own kids, but to address the insidious forms of racism that exist, one has to address a different level to make a difference.

 

Maybe it would help if you thought about it from your prolife experience. You said your people were protesting. Why? Why not just not have an abortion themselves and teach their kids not to? Why do more? You said they were trying to help women find a better way. Why can't we try to help the good and dedicated people in our law enforcement find a better way? Why can't we call legislators to urge them to find a better way by passing laws that would make a difference by requiring training directly addressing implicit racism & de-escalation and making it more possible for rogue officers to be prosecuted?

 

All meaningful societal change from changes in how we treat the mentally ill to women's suffrage to labor laws to civil rights movement, to MADD etc. have required direct attempts to influence the larger systems as well as individual change.

Have you ever communicated with a state legislator about the issue of police and overuse of force? Called your local law enforcement office to find out what kind of training they get? Listened to friends of color describe their experiences when they go into a store? Gone into the store where they've had those experiences and asked to speak to the manager about it? Engaged with not only your children but your church, family,, and friends to help further their understanding a little more? Could you give a good explanation of implicit racism to a friend who thought all incidents were rogue cops or just terribly unfortunate misunderstandings? Have you written to Bible publishers whose illustrations are various iterations of white coloring (blond, redhead, brunette) rather than either people who look like Middle Eastern Jews or people who like all the kingdom of God?

 

I applaud what you are doing with your own kids, but to address the insidious forms of racism that exist, one has to address a different level to make a difference.

Actually yes, to many of those points. Or was this just a rhetorical potshot as to what you think I have or haven't done?

 

I mean I'll admit I haven't replicated the effort since I got to Ohio soooo...?

 

I'm still shaking my head ten minutes later or the Bible illustration thing. The ones my kids see have mostly middle eastern people with some variety, especially in the earlier stories before the flood. I'm not an endorser of surfer Jesus?

Edited September 26, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[EmseB]

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/nation/2015/11/06/Department-of-Defense-paid-53-million-to-pro-sports-for-military-tributes-report-says/stories/201511060140

 

http://www.snopes.com/nfl-sideline-anthem/

The snopes link says: Players always had the option of standing on the sidelines during the national anthem, and there is no evidence that "paid patriotism" initiatives begun in 2009 required them to do so.

 

 

 

That can't be a cite in support? I'm confused.

 

ETA: I know DoD spends money on military displays at games, nascar sponsorships, flyovers, etc. That's not new. Airshows also cost a ton of money and are primarily recruiting events. The Marines at 8th&I put on a ton of free shows, primarily to recruit people. Yes, the military spends $$$ on showing off their stuff. I'm wondering about the specific claim made about the anthem.

Edited September 26, 2017 by EmseB

[Peaceseeker]

The race issues in this country run so very deep and it breaks my heart. People are dying. Systemic racism has to be broken. The civil rights movement is not finished. And I am glad these players are taking an opportunity millions of minorities don't have, and risking their paychecks, for something so much more important than a sports game. They have a public platform. They are paid to play a game and they do risk losing personal benefits by raising awareness. And men like that make me proud to be an American. Because it reminds me we can be about more than capitalism and greed. I think they are doing it in a very respectful way and I am glad it is at least generating a conversation about race relations today.

 

I wish I had an answer for how to solve this problem in our country. I don't. Years of ignoring it and pretending civil rights was wrapped up in the 60's didn't work. At least they are trying to do something. The least I can do is take a moment to listen. How hard is that in my comfortable world?

 

For all those in the minority my heart aches for your pain and fear and anger. I pray our nation heals and all our children will grow up in peace. I do believe it is possible someday to heal from our past. But not if we can't even admit we still have a problem.

Edited September 26, 2017 by CaliforniaDreaming

[AngieC]

For those who say it's in the NFL rules that they have to be on the field and stand with hand over heart, I've read in many places that it is completely false. The rule book supposedly never even mentions the anthem or the flag and it was a fake post going around.

 

Not sure if true but I've read it in several reliable sources where the fake post just seems to be sent around by various people.

Yes, it is false.

 

http://www.11alive.com/mobile/article/news/local/verify/verify-are-nfl-football-players-required-to-stand-for-the-national-anthem/478347794?scroll=246

[Guest]

The snopes link says: Players always had the option of standing on the sidelines during the national anthem, and there is no evidence that "paid patriotism" initiatives begun in 2009 required them to do so.

 

 

 

That can't be a cite in support? I'm confused.

You were asking for a dollar figure citation (see where I quoted you).

[blondeviolin]

I support NFL players and their right to kneel during the national anthem. I also support those who boo them when they do.

 

HOWEVER, I would be very put off if I came across someone who was not standing during the anthem. Or talked through it. Honestly, I'm more offended by the people who blabber on and move about through the anthem rather than those who are kneeling during it.

 

And, living on a military base, we hear it everyday at 5pm. And you better bet your behind my kids stand still and pay their respects. They respect the country that it represents. They respect those who gave the ultimate sacrifice. And they respect those who are still fighting. Their dad is currently deployed in support of freedom. It's a hard thing, and he's in a very safe place. It doesn't mean that sacrifice isn't given.

[Guest]

Yes, it is false.

 

http://www.11alive.com/mobile/article/news/local/verify/verify-are-nfl-football-players-required-to-stand-for-the-national-anthem/478347794?scroll=246

I haven't downloaded the most recent copy to look it over but there was some debate about this in 2015. I'll go ahead and rescind it from my mental list of reasons this makes me roll my eyes and change the channel.

 

The remaining reasons stand. That was a really bad pun ;)

[Joker]

Prove it false. I gave a line citation, so it should be easy enough to hunt down.

 I have no idea where your citation is and am not going to look back through the whole thread to find it. 

 

Here's snopes. It states there is no mention of it in the rule book. They haven't actually seen the manual (don't even know if it exists) and have no idea if it's mentioned. If there is another manual it does not mention anything other than being on the sidelines. 

 

http://www.snopes.com/must-nfl-players-stand/

 

 

I also read it in several other places online, including CNN. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Joker

[Murphy101]

But just as people are free to protest, people are free to react to the protest. They are free to say they disagree or say that they wish it wouldn't happen during entertainment they've paid for, or free to not watch the NFL, or, or, or. Free speech and taking a stand means dealing with the blow back (as far as the blow back is also speech, I'm not considering the aforementioned threats of violence or actual violence).

The general public are free to peacefully counter protest.

 

The government is not free to incite to violence by name-calling and demanding there be retribution against citizens for refusing to participate in a ritual, patriotic or religious.

 

I don't care if people decide to not watch football bc some player annoyed them for any reason.

I don't care if people decide to peacefully protest outside an arena.

 

political comment deleted by moderator.

Edited September 26, 2017 by emzhengjiu

[EmseB]

You were asking for a dollar figure citation (see where I quoted you).

Sorry, I cut myself short because phone posting, but I meant the cite for what the poster I quoted was claiming. Snopes seems to say it's not true, but when I Google I can't find what she's talking about.

[Laurie4b]

Actually yes, to many of those points. Or was this just a rhetorical potshot as to what you think I have or haven't done?

 

I mean I'll admit I haven't replicated the effort since I got to Ohio soooo...?

 

No, it wasn't a rhetorical potshot at all. It was an attempt to communicate. 

 

You said that racism truly bothers you personally. You also said you couldn't do anything but control your own life and teach your own kids.  (paraphrasing)  So I thought, gee, maybe if she had some examples, it would bridge the gap and so I gave a lot of examples  things that an individual person can do that affect the system as a whole.  I was genuinely trying to communicate with you about other alternatives, not to take potshots. 

 

I am confused though as to why if you did do some of those things you would make the statement that we can't do anything. I don't know what that statement means at this point. 

[Guest]

Sorry, I cut myself short because phone posting, but I meant the cite for what the poster I quoted was claiming. Snopes seems to say it's not true, but when I Google I can't find what she's talking about.

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by WendyAndMilo

[Guest]

I have no idea where your citation is and am not going to look back through the whole thread to find it.

 

Here's snopes. It states there is no mention of it in the rule book. They haven't actually seen the manual (don't even know if it exists) and have no idea if it's mentioned. If there is another manual it does not mention anything other than being on the sidelines.

 

http://www.snopes.com/must-nfl-players-stand/

 

 

I also read it in several other places online, including CNN.

Okay well if CNN said it then it must be true. BWAHAHAHA!

 

I've got to exit the conversation, it's making me cracky at this point and I spend three pages giving respectful and thoughtful answers that were ignored or 'not enough'.

 

Have fun ladies, find someone else who actually likes football to castigate. I reiterate I'd abolish all professional sports, don't even own a tv, think shooting black people is wrong and needs to be fixed at the level at which I can actually exercise control, support their right to protest and deride any calls to violence against them, and think their fans are paying with their feet - elsewhere.

 

And all this will be ignored again. Same old same old, as with so many of these discussions. To those who engaged politely and didn't put words in my mouth, my love to you.

 

Tootles.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[Joker]

Okay well if CNN said it then it must be true. BWAHAHAHA!

 

I've got to exit the conversation, it's making me cracky at this point and I spend three pages giving respectful and thoughtful answers that were ignored or 'not enough'.

 

Have fun ladies, find someone else who actually likes football to castigate. I reiterate I'd abolish all professional sports, don't even own a tv, think shooting black people is wrong and needs to be fixed at the level at which I can actually exercise control, support their right to protest and deride any calls to violence against them, and think their fans are paying with their feet - elsewhere.

 

And all this will be ignored again. Same old same old, as with so many of these discussions. To those who engaged politely and didn't put words in my mouth, my love to you.

 

Tootles.

 

Um, I linked snopes which broke it all down. I only mentioned CNN to reiterate that I have been reading it in many places and those places seem to be able to back it up with facts. 

[EMS83]

OP, Beautiful.

[ktgrok]

Wow... https://twitter.com/dallascowboys/status/912474278410326016

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

 You also said you couldn't do anything but control your own life and teach your own kids.  (paraphrasing)  So I thought, gee, maybe if she had some examples, it would bridge the gap and so I gave a lot of examples  things that an individual person can do that affect the system as a whole.

 

Those types of examples are what I meant when I said 'acting corporately'.  It's good to act in our own families, and necessary, but I think it needs to go to the next levels as well.  I've always taken that old quote to heart:  "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

 

And in addition, that's part of the effectiveness issue.  What is effective?  Working in a family but not speaking out is only slightly effective.  So is taking a public action that people mostly don't understand.  To be effective, I think it's important to be:

Calm

Factual

Ready to speak out

Informed

Proactive

 

Most of your examples in the earlier post can fall into all of those categories.

 

[melmichigan]

Wow... https://twitter.com/dallascowboys/status/912474278410326016

I thought that was a great show of solidarity, since it was prior to the anthem.

[Joker]

I thought that was a great show of solidarity, since it was prior to the anthem.

They also kept their arms locked together during the anthem as did Arizona. The whole team for both did that and I was happy to see it.