lovinmyboys Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I have been reading online articles about being a good sports parent and a common theme is to not complain about your kids playing time. Should parents really never complain about this? Isn't actually playing a big part of the sport? I actually just sent an email to my ds9's baseball coach and now I am really regretting sending it. I sent it yesterday and he usually responds very quickly but I haven't heard anything. I think I was nice in the email and just said my son was disappointed and asked if his playing wasn't up to par with the others (because from my position he has played as well as the others). This whole thing is really making me question team sports. They may be good for some kids, but for the ones who aren't the best on the team, I think it teaches them some life lessons I don't really want them learning at 9. (And no matter how good a team is, someone will have to be the worst on the team). I have wasted my day checking my email and being nervous about this. It seems like a silly thing to worry about, but my son is really bothered by it so it bothers me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 At 9, I'd expect everyone to play some. If they keep score and teams go to championships, the coach is still looking for the "win". I'm not saying I agree with that at this age, but it is what it is.......... UNLESS the league requires all players to play a certain amount of time. How long are you into the season? Is this a pattern of the coach? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I can think of many times I've sent an email and regretted it! So I know what you're feeling. And they weren't spur-of-the-moment emails. They were thoughtful and hopefully considerate-sounding! Almost always it ended up okay; the recipient was just busy and slow to respond. As far as the team sports question, I really don't have an answer. The only team sport my kids played was hockey, and I guess a little soccer. Other than that, they were individual sport people -- swimming, diving, etc. Those are the sports they were more serious about. I'm sure it was at least partly because of some gut feeling of competition with team members that they didn't want. They loved the individual sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovinmyboys Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 It isn't a pattern with the coach which is why I wish I wouldn't have said anything. My Dh was going to say something and I thought I would say it nicer than him. This is a tournament team and it was a big tournament this weekend. He played one inning and did fine-even made a good play. But then he was taken out. That is what frustrates me-he is a good player but he is losing confidence because even though he does fine he gets taken out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I think it's ok you said something. I guess I'd see it as "it's worth a shot to say something" because if your kid gets so frustrated he quits...that's lousy too. Seems to me a kid that age should get some playing time fairly regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I think the article was probably too general, I don't think this is always wrong. I the point of playing is mainly recreation, and the competition is in order to enable that, everyone needs to be able to play. Or they are not recreating. If the main point is competition, the situation is a little different. There can be cross-over which gets tricky. In some games it takes time to learn the skills, younger and newer players may get lots of time at practice but less in games until their skills build up more. I don't think this is a bad thing for kids to learn. I think a lot of angst happens because the people involved don't keep in mind what the point of playing in that league or game is - they mix up the goals. And there are things that contribute - one is that all the teams bill themselves as "competitive" so there is little for other kids, or only the very worst players are on rec leagues (which is kind of the opposite of what it used to be where most kids were rec and only a few on competitive teams.) And also, I think sometimes to much emphasis on game time and not enough on skill building, where everyone is involved, makes it hard to balance things. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valley Girl Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Our experience was with the YMCA a few years ago. That the coach played favorites was obvious. It completely soured DS on group sports of any kind, and he was a kid who genuinely needed the encouragement as well as the activity. I didn't say anything to the coach, but I did give that as the reason we weren't returning when I sent in the evaluation survey at the end of the season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 It isn't a pattern with the coach which is why I wish I wouldn't have said anything. My Dh was going to say something and I thought I would say it nicer than him. This is a tournament team and it was a big tournament this weekend. He played one inning and did fine-even made a good play. But then he was taken out. That is what frustrates me-he is a good player but he is losing confidence because even though he does fine he gets taken out. I think in that case I would have had my son ask the coach about it himself. It's perfectly reasonable for him to want to know if he is playing well or needs to improve, or even just want to understand how the coach organizes the team during the game. It might have nothing to do with your son's playing but be related to another player somehow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsWeasley Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 (edited) We had an issue with this this spring. I couldn't believe a kindergarten league of any sport would have kids sit most of the game: they're babies! Whatever. It didn't seem to be based on talent, but rather who was the coaches' kids. We're going to do a different league next spring, and I'm trying to cajole my brother (who coaches this sport at a college level) to volunteer to coach my kid's team. Edited May 31, 2016 by MrsWeasley 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiana Daniels Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I've regretted emails also! Keep in mind he may not have been checking emails on Memorial Day. People are out hiking and having barbecues, and maybe even if he saw it, he delayed responding because he was busy and wanted to take time to answer nicely. Is this a competitive team or a rec team? If it's a tournament and a competitive team, then he was probably playing the kids he thought best in that particular situation against that particular team. If it's a rec team, then there was no excuse to have your son sit out under any circumstance. The whole "when to talk to a coach thing" is so tricky! I've had some very bad outcomes with coaches whose inflated egos really couldn't handle a few simple questions. I've also talked to coaches who handle questions superbly! I'd say, if it's one or two times, don't say anything, but if there's a pattern over time then it's good to speak up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantmom Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I think it depends on the league and whether this is a competitive league or not. I would hope that at 9 the goal is still player development and not winning, but you'd have to ask. I think that if you approach it in an exploratory way and not complaining about the playing time, it's okay. If you ask things like, what does my player need to work on, where are his strengths and what could he do to improve to get more playing time, then those are the kinds of questions that will be productive. Hugs, I know the feeling of sending an email and then not being sure about it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azucena Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Does your league have written rules? E.g., my sons play in a league where rec soccer players are meant to play at least half the time, but travel soccer playing time is not guaranteed. :grouphug: Dealing with kids' hurt feelings around sports is hard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsymama Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Sports are going to be different depending on if it's rec or competitive. I would also check league rules about play time. I did have an issue last year with my oldest (9 at the time) barely being allowed on the field. I do understand she had some legitimate issues (medical) that prevented her from being as hard core as the other kids but it really hurt her confidence since she'd played for 2 yrs before. Soccer was her world before that but now ... she doesn't even know if she wants to try again this year and that breaks my heart so I know how you feel mom. I would also ask the coach if there was any reason that we could work on. It may have just been what was best at that time but if it is something that can be worked on and your son wants to improve that's good information to have. Perhaps more practice time or some private lessons would be helpful if it's that important to you and your son. I never asked about my daughter b/c we did have medical issues. I'm hoping it won't be an issue this year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 It isn't a pattern with the coach which is why I wish I wouldn't have said anything. My Dh was going to say something and I thought I would say it nicer than him. This is a tournament team and it was a big tournament this weekend. He played one inning and did fine-even made a good play. But then he was taken out. That is what frustrates me-he is a good player but he is losing confidence because even though he does fine he gets taken out. So he was taken out and never got put back into the game? That means the other player stayed in for the rest of the game? I'd question that and not feel guilty at all. Are you or your dh familiar with the substitution rules in your ds's league? It would be good to know these, so that you know what your son can and can't do; in other words, what your coach can have your son do and what he can't. In the fastball league I coached, the substitution rules were very specific and limited. Players could only be substituted in very specific ways. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 So he was taken out and never got put back into the game? That means the other player stayed in for the rest of the game? I'd question that and not feel guilty at all. Are you or your dh familiar with the substitution rules in your ds's league? It would be good to know these, so that you know what your son can and can't do; in other words, what your coach can have your son do and what he can't. In the fastball league I coached, the substitution rules were very specific and limited. Players could only be substituted in very specific ways. I agree with this. Is this travel baseball? If so, the rules on subs and replacing players are really weird, and it may well be that pulling a player for any reason means he can't go back in for the rest of the game. If it was just one game, I would let it go. The coach may not have even realized your kid had been sitting for most of the game; my extensive experience with volunteer baseball coaches leads me to believe that coaches are often clueless about what's going on in the dugout, including who's sitting in it. Should they be? Of course not; but, often, in the heat of play, they just are. If it becomes a pattern, however, there is nothing wrong with asking what your kid can do better to get more playing time and do more for the team. Regardless of whether it was one game or a dozen, the coach shouldn't be offended that you asked politely about playing time, and he should be willing to give you a thoughtful response, even if that response is, "Oh, geez, I screwed up the line-up I gave the other team at the beginning of the game. Sorry." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tita Gidge Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 My brothers coached my sons' teams until they went competitive, and now two of my sons coach their little sister's team. I've also spent more than ten years on the boards of both our local soccer and baseball leagues. In that collective experience, we've come up with some unofficial rules for ourselves - including when to reply to a parent's complaint. We advise our coaches to sit on an email for 48 hours; while I'm sure yours was carefully worded and "nice," so many of them are not. Now, as a board we also have parents sign a form at the beginning of each contractual year (for select) or season (for rec) stating they won't confront a coach about playing time until 48 hours following a game ... but when emotions run high, that's often overlooked. This waiting period has helped calmer heads prevail, on both sides. Now as a parent, I get what you're saying. All of my boys play competitive sports, and three of them traveled across the country for a tournament this weekend. One of my boys is in a slump and his confidence is taking a hit. He's always been a great athlete but he's sometimes lacked the discipline to train on his own (he's always relied on his natural talent). Now the stakes are higher, and he has competition within his team for his position - he went from starting and playing an entire game to being subbed out mid-game by a more disciplined player. The blow to his confidence sometimes shows in subtle ways while he's playing, so in critical moments (or even games) he's sits sideline more than he plays. Perhaps your son's confidence issue is also spilling into his attitude or playing in ways the coach notices? And I don't mean attitude as in your son is throwing fits or being mad, I mean more like ... he's making good plays but isn't as aggressive or creative in his playing because he's increasingly unsure of his abilities. (It's a vicious cycle, isn't it?) I was a competitive athlete and I'm a huge fan of team sports. I think they're so important and they've been a life blood for my kids - my sons especially (the youngest is 14). But I forbid them from playing competitively until they were 11-13, depending on the kid. This was very much against the grain for where I live. People here start specializing their kids at age 6 and fork over tons of money for competitive leagues for the under-10 set. I think that's a mistake for many reasons, one being what you're experiencing now -- the life lessons that come from competitive play aren't always appropriate for that age group. They certainly aren't necessary IMO. At 9-10 I let some of my sons guest play in tournaments because they did require a level of competition not being met at the rec level. Only the ones who I knew could handle it emotionally. It gave them a taste of what was to come, and what to work for. I even let two of them train with a tournament team but I didn't let them play games. That made me super popular as a mom and parent LOL. But I didn't care, I had been a child athlete and I based my decisions from that - not peer pressure from armchair athlete moms/dads/coaches. Don't let this experience sour you on team sports; it's not an issue of team sports so much as it is an issue of your son's maturity or team fit. Also, what Bluegoat mentioned about goals of the team - this being a tournament team, winning is going to take priority over development (at a tournament especially). Maybe write this off as a learning lesson, step down a level of play, and try again in a few years if your son wants to and is more ready for it. I hope you hear back from the coach soon. Waiting is the worst, I know. My stomach is in knots just thinking about it, I can only imagine how yours feels. :grouphug: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenaj Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 We're involved in multiple sports here and multiple teams in each sport. I have never contacted a coach regarding playing time. We've taught our kids that whether they are on the field for the whole game, part of a game, or are sitting on the bench, they can still be learning something. They can be learning technique by watching the other players (presumably better players) on the field, they can be learning strategy by listening to and watching coaches and umpires/referees,and they can be learning about sportsmanship by watching the reactions of others and by controlling their own reactions. Those are the important things about being on a team. We've been on teams where our kids have complained about playing time, or about who was playing. I always told them that if they keep working hard at practices and increasing their skills, both athletically and socially (by being a team player and encouraging others), their coaches will recognize that and reward it. We don't tolerate them complaining about playing time. My dh and I have been know to roll our eyes privately when coaches kids are put in key positions but (shrug) we didn't volunteer so let them have a bit of extra playing time for their kids in exchange for their time commitment. After all, I can drop my kids off at practices and games if I have a busy schedule, but they have to be there before, during and usually after the game for cleanup, not to mention all the meetings they are required to attend. Of course, I haven't seen your particular situation on your team, but if I had written that email, I'd be calling the coach to apologize and I hope your son doesn't know that you contacted the coach. I can't imagine how the email would improve things . . .if anything it will probably cause the coach to react negatively to both you and your son. I hope you don't think I'm being harsh. Believe me, we've been on sports teams where similar things have happened. I've been in the situation of having the kid that plays all the time (which can also be awkward) and also the kid that is sitting on the bench the whole season. My current 14yods once went a whole baseball season and never connected the bat with the ball when he was 9. It was a long season and he didn't play much but he stuck it through those not-so-fun years and Sunday hit a ball over the fence for a home run! So glad we stuck with it and taught him to be patient and keep working with each coach (both the good and the not-so-good). 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teachermom2834 Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 We're involved in multiple sports here and multiple teams in each sport. I have never contacted a coach regarding playing time. We've taught our kids that whether they are on the field for the whole game, part of a game, or are sitting on the bench, they can still be learning something. They can be learning technique by watching the other players (presumably better players) on the field, they can be learning strategy by listening to and watching coaches and umpires/referees,and they can be learning about sportsmanship by watching the reactions of others and by controlling their own reactions. Those are the important things about being on a team. We've been on teams where our kids have complained about playing time, or about who was playing. I always told them that if they keep working hard at practices and increasing their skills, both athletically and socially (by being a team player and encouraging others), their coaches will recognize that and reward it. We don't tolerate them complaining about playing time. My dh and I have been know to roll our eyes privately when coaches kids are put in key positions but (shrug) we didn't volunteer so let them have a bit of extra playing time for their kids in exchange for their time commitment. After all, I can drop my kids off at practices and games if I have a busy schedule, but they have to be there before, during and usually after the game for cleanup, not to mention all the meetings they are required to attend. Of course, I haven't seen your particular situation on your team, but if I had written that email, I'd be calling the coach to apologize and I hope your son doesn't know that you contacted the coach. I can't imagine how the email would improve things . . .if anything it will probably cause the coach to react negatively to both you and your son. I hope you don't think I'm being harsh. Believe me, we've been on sports teams where similar things have happened. I've been in the situation of having the kid that plays all the time (which can also be awkward) and also the kid that is sitting on the bench the whole season. My current 14yods once went a whole baseball season and never connected the bat with the ball when he was 9. It was a long season and he didn't play much but he stuck it through those not-so-fun years and Sunday hit a ball over the fence for a home run! So glad we stuck with it and taught him to be patient and keep working with each coach (both the good and the not-so-good). This is where I come down on this too. I've spent a lot of time with travel ball (but I am done! Ds is graduating and I am pretty sure I won't talk to the college coach about playing time 🙂). My years around baseball coaches lead me to believe that talking to the coach about playing time is generally a bad idea. I can't think of one time it didn't make a situation worse. If the situation is so bad you are ready to quit and part ways then I guess there is nothing to lose. But I have never seen talking to the coach about playing time go well. Sorry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess in the Burbs Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I love equal time sports. But even with that in play, when I coached basketball, parents still questioned it. I always ask. I rarely saw positive response from asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovinmyboys Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 Well, my intent with the email was to ask a question not complain. I don't know if it came across that way. i will see him tonight and talk to him, but I don't think I have anything to apologize for. The email was just asking if ds had made a mistake or if there was something we were missing as to why he was taken out. In hindsight I should have probably let it go, but I also do think it should be ok to ask questions of the coach (now it may not be ok-but my opinion is asking questions shouldn't be a problem). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meena Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I think it's good to know if there's something your child could improve or work on to help the team. But I think most coaches would see any questions about playing time as complaints or a move to equalize playing time. Hopefully your coach will read your email as you intended it. When my DS was 10 he was on a team with a coach and assistant coach who had kids on the team, as well as several professional players who had kids on the team. Even though my DS was as good or better than those kids, they got 2-3 times as much playing time. It got to the point where it was so obvious that the coach was playing his favorites preferentially. DH and I never said anything, though, because we knew it wouldn't give DS more playing time and would make us look like overreactors. Even though this was supposed to be the best team in the area, we left after that season. DS knew he was being skipped over for no good reason and it hurt his confidence. He plays at elite levels, so we understand the nature of competition and don't look for equal playing time, but now we do look for coaches who utilize players according to game need and ability. If your coach skips over players routinely or uses certain kids as "fill-ins" only to give his preferred players a rest, I'd look into other teams. To me, for youth sports that's a sign of a weak coach who doesn't know how to properly fill or utilize a roster. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Good coaches are willing to talk to you about the issue. If your child is playing recreational sports, he should be getting equal playing time. If your son is playing on a competitive team, parents can expect that the playing time will not be equal, but it should not be ridiculously lopsided when kids are 9 years old. My son plays on an elite-level hockey team, and the boys are 14. They know that if they don't practice hard/play well, or if they have attitude problems, they will see reduced playing time. I'm fine with that, because they are teenagers on an elite team. One time I agreed with a coach's decision to reduce playing time for a young player (8 years old) on a rec team. The child had been intentionally doing things that could cause injury to other players when he got frustrated or angry (I'm talking swinging his stick at kids like it was a baseball bat, blatantly tripping kids who didn't even have the puck, two-handed shoving kids down, that kind of stuff). The coach had talked to the kid and his parents multiple times and the issue had not gotten better. The parents blamed it on the child having ADD and expected the coach to "be patient." Ok, fine, the kid has ADD, but what about the other kids out there playing who are in danger of injury because your kid can't or won't control himself? Either he controls himself or you realize that he's not capable of playing hockey right now. The coach finally benched the player for a period (ten minutes at that age), and the child stormed off the bench and refused to play at all. The coach told him that after he served the bench, he could play, but not until then. The kid sat out two more games before he was willing to serve the bench. Unfortunately, his behavior issues did not resolve after that, and the board finally removed him from the team. So, that's a huge digression, but yeah, at age 9, on a rec team, kids should get equal playing time. If the coach will not discuss it with you or is defensive, he is not a good coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I think sometimes to much emphasis on game time and not enough on skill building, Yes. This. My oldest played soccer on a county team when he was around 8. My fear going into it was that he would end up with a coach, or parent of another player, screaming at them and making things high stress and miserable. Instead, he ended up with a coach that didn't spend any time at all on skill building or teaching, and so the game was just frustrating and no fun. There were a few kids who clearly "knew what they were doing" and they ran the ball (not effectively, his team scored 1 goal the whole season) and all the other kids just sorta stood around. The coach didn't pressure anyone to try or win or anything. That's not fun, either. It pretty much ruined him on team sports. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Well, my intent with the email was to ask a question not complain. I don't know if it came across that way. i will see him tonight and talk to him, but I don't think I have anything to apologize for. The email was just asking if ds had made a mistake or if there was something we were missing as to why he was taken out. In hindsight I should have probably let it go, but I also do think it should be ok to ask questions of the coach (now it may not be ok-but my opinion is asking questions shouldn't be a problem). Of course you don't have to apologize, though you should probably find out what the exact substitution rules for this league so you know them for the future. Sometimes when a player comes off the field he can't go back on, or can only go back on in a specific position. It's good to know what they are, as a parent, so you can let your child know that it has often very little to do with their playing ability or errors or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie G Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Parents are learning, too. You are learning when it's ok to step in and when you have to let the coach be the coach. I hope the coach won't be offended by your email. You weren't attacking him. It's a good chance for him to tell you that it was a one time thing, that he didn't realize your boy only played one inning, or maybe he can explain that your boy would do better being on a rec team instead of a tournament team. But no matter what, the coach can choose to be offended or he can choose to help you be a better sports parent. Disclaimer: Our kids were theater kids and when the cast list came out, they knew how much 'playing time' they'd be getting. Made it a lot easier. g Chorus? You're going to be in group numbers and barely noticed. Lead? Better clear your calendar because you're going to be busy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 (edited) When my dh managed a tournament team, I was surprised to learn how different the substitution rules are between little league/recreational play and tournament play. You have your starters, and they each hold a position in the batting order (1-9). Your when a substitute comes in, they "marry" to the player who holds that spot in the line-up. From that point on, those players cannot occupy the field at the same time. However, and this is where it gets tricky, they don't have to occupy the same field position. So begins a very complicated puzzle of subbing kids in, while making sure your line up stays legal AND you have all of your positions covered. Generally, your top 5 bats are going to play the whole game, but if you have a few strong position players, they might also take priority (example: your pitchers and catchers can make or break the game). So if you have a kid playing who isn't as strong of a batter and also doesn't play a priority position, he's probably not going to get a lot of play. That in no way means he's not a good ball player! If he's on a tourney team, he is a great player! It's just that there is so much more to keep in balance with tourney play. Edited June 3, 2016 by Sassenach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiana Daniels Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Well, my intent with the email was to ask a question not complain. I don't know if it came across that way. i will see him tonight and talk to him, but I don't think I have anything to apologize for. The email was just asking if ds had made a mistake or if there was something we were missing as to why he was taken out. In hindsight I should have probably let it go, but I also do think it should be ok to ask questions of the coach (now it may not be ok-but my opinion is asking questions shouldn't be a problem). What finally happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mysticmomma Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Also curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovinmyboys Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 He emailed me back and was very nice. He said that my ds is a great player and hopes he isn't discouraged. He doesn't have as strong of an arm and he was playing kids with stronger arms. It makes sense. My ds is a better player than some of the kids that played, but his arm is his weakest part of his game. (Of course my dad thinks that is a crazy reason to not play him-but he is the grandparent). I probably wouldn't have emailed the coach but ds has played for him since he was five, so I feel like we should have the kind of relationship where I can ask a question and he can answer without it going badly. In hindsight, I still wouldn't have emailed him but I think everything is fine. They had a game yesterday and ds played the whole game-catcher, second, and pitcher-so it doesn't appear he is retaliating for the email. Thanks for all the advice. This is the first year they are playing travel baseball and I am still on the fence about it. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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