When second child is not "acing" school like first child

[albeto.]

The reason it provokes emotion is that some of these posts make it sound like we took the easy way out by getting a dx &/or pursuing treatment &/or meds if that's what our kids needed. Like, if we'd just buckled down & worked harder & not put up with this labelling nonsense, these kids would be just fine....

 

I agree. I think it is worth noting (if not harping on) this idea that learning disorders are a matter to be addressed by focusing on character issues such as working harder, being diligent, or concentrating appropriately. The problem is that these ideas appeal to the old fashioned and erroneous notion that learning disorders are a matter of willful choice, an illustration of poor character. Not only do we know this to be inaccurate, but we know it to be detrimental to children. Rather than helping, it encourages one to look for blame in the individual's character when things aren't progressing as desired, and neglects the very tools that have been shown to work. That many people can and do work harder than their peers to reach the same goal is not reason to support the archaic idea that these learning challenges are character issues. Many people believe this is an unjustifiable position to demand on a child considering what we do know today. It's the same song society sang regarding autism (and many still do have), it's just the verse.

[katilac]

I was told this by the school's special ed coordinator, and she showed me the information in writing from the school district.  I guess she and the school district were misinformed (I think not).

 

<snip>

 

Nevertheless, since medication is evidently the first line of treatment here, and since neither ds nor dh wanted to medicate, we didn't see the point of diagnosis.   

 <snip>

 

  He doesn't have ADD, and never did.  <snip>

 

This post utterly baffles me. If he doesn't have ADD, and never did, then of course there is no point to getting a diagnosis. I suppose it's possible to lie to the doctors enough to get a false diagnosis, if one suffered from Munchausen by proxy, but what a very odd idea. 

 

And yes, your special ed coordinator and school district are quite misinformed. The law is very clear. If that's in writing, I hope they are saving up for a lawsuit. How would this be enforceable, anyway? Many ADD meds are taken once a day, at home. The school has no way of knowing if they are taking meds. 

 

The OP is not in the same situation, in the sense that she is indeed confident that he has a diagnosable condition. I think she said dyslexia at a minimum. She is trying to decide whether a dx would be helpful, not whether or not he has issues. 

[texasmama]

Speaking strongly here so fair warning.

 

I think you do your son a disservice by continuing to allow your bias against evals and "labels" drive your bus regarding this issue.  It is as potentially as damaging as someone going looking for a "label" which does not exist. 

 

If your child had a physical problem and needed an inappropriate amount of help and intervention on your part in order to be somewhat okay, you would go to the doctor and get it checked out.  You would want to know if he had diabetes or asthma or terrible food allergies.  You would want to know because it is helpful and empowering.  It is irrelevant whether or not other kids are "over labeled".  This is your kid, and he appears to be under labeled.  I don't understand the benefit in him launching into adulthood in ignorance of what his issue is.  That sounds more damaging to his self-concept than having a label like dyslexia or ADHD or whatever.

 

I don't think that everyone needs evals.  But this is a kid who clearly does.  He is in high school, and he is close to failing two courses without significant amounts of help.  This is not within the norm.  The years for help and intervention and understanding are drawing to a close for you.  Your son will soon be launched into the world with no information about himself and ill prepared.  IMO, this issue does not sound like a "pull himself up by his bootstraps" issue.  There is something else going on.  What?  I have no idea.  Neither do you.  I would have a hard time justifying to my adult child why I did not pursue every avenue to understand why he struggled and to provide appropriate help.  Without this, you are just guessing at what might help him, and that makes no sense.

 

If you get a private evaluation, you do not have to share every single line item with your ds. You do not have to share anything with the school.  You decide how to use the information.  Information is power.  Ignorance is not.

[Storygirl]

I didn't offer advice, I only offered my experience as a different perspective.  There are other options to medication.  

 

Whether or not it is illegal for my school district to have this policy isn't relevant to my decision.  The policy was presented to me by a school administration, and I took it at face value.  I chose not to follow that course because my son didn't want to go there.  I trusted him, as I have his whole life, to find his way, and he did it.  It wasn't pure instinct or desire for things to work out.  He wanted to do it on his own, and I let him.  And he did it!  Woohoo!  Good for him!  But, why should this bring hostility on me?

 

Man, I can't figure out how this topic produces so much hostility.  It's as bad as the math wars of the early 2000's.  Yes, I know about learning disorders.  My son had several when he was younger, and we worked through them.  That's one of the main reasons we homeschooled.  But that's not the same thing as a bunch of moms automatically diagnosing a kid over the internet, and blasting his mom because she doesn't see medication as a workable solution for her son.   

 

I've got to go to a meeting, so I'll stop here for now.  I'm sure I've said something here that will spark further discussion.  I'll be back later if you want to chat some more.  

 

Suzanne, this post is my sincere attempt to answer your question about why people are responding to your posts as they are. It is not meant to be hostile in any way.

 

I scanned through the entire thread again to be sure of what I'm going to say. It looks like you were the first person (in post 25) to mention medication. We haven't talked about medication or ADHD at all regarding Quill's son. The focus has been mainly on dyslexia and dysgraphia and evaluating for learning disabilities in general. In fact, all of the responses regarding medicating and ADHD have been to your posts, not Quill's, because you are the one who brought it up. I don't think Quill has mentioned ADHD once. Many of the ADHD related posts have been made in response to incorrect information in your posts.

 

It's not hostility to post corrections. It might make you feel badly to have people not agree with what you said, but that doesn't mean that those people are being hostile.

 

If you really want to know what people are responding to in your posts .... You say that your son never had ADHD, but then you tout that he made it through school without medication. Your comments that you could have influenced the teachers and doctors to diagnose him with ADHD seem dismissive to those of us who have had very thorough evaluations of our children by experts and professionals, as if anyone can get a diagnosis through trickery. Your comments about how great it is that your son has achieved so much on his own (and good for him, by the way), suggest that he took a better path than those who have had accommodations. It's your tone that people are responding to.

 

It's find and lovely and helpful to post success stories and encouragements. But your posts seem to promote the idea that your son's success shows that evaluations are unnecessary -- that people can do just fine without them. And you include some very negative comments about medication, even though your family has no direct experience taking them. So you introduced the topic of ADHD and meds to the thread, then got irritated when people responded to you.

 

There is real pain and struggle represented in the lives of many who have posted on this thread. Your posts don't acknowledge that and yet contain some real negative views of getting evaluations and seeking help. Your son is thriving without outside intervention, and the suggestion underlying your words is that that can happen for everyone (you may not be saying that, but it is how it comes across). The reality for many of our children is that they will not overcome their issues without help, because true learning disabilities don't go away over time -- they are life long and can have a significant impact on their chances for success in school and beyond. So your comments sting a bit. Yes, there may be an emotional response to what you've been saying. That's natural. However, reading through the posts, I don't see hostility, just a discussion.

 

ETA: I see when re-reading Quill's OP that she mentioned ADHD there, but it was not discussed otherwise in this thread (and medication was not mentioned at all) until you brought it up.

[Storygirl]

Quill, take a look at some of the things you wrote in your first post:

 

This is a bit of a predicament that hasn't been much of an issue in past years, but I'm not sure how to work this. It has always been clear to me in hsing that my DD is very academically capable. She's bright and good at the things valued by schools - quick learner, good memory, fact collector, strong reader and writer, good at applying logic. She is in her senior year (b&m school) and knocking it out of the park.

DS is having his first go at b&m school, 9th grade. He has never had good academic skills. There is a pretty strong tendency for dyslexia and ADD in the family (esp. boys). He has never been dxed with anything, but I know he has more of a struggle with language and fluid order than average. I did not want him pigeonholed as LD, but that might have been a mistake on my part; I honestly just don't know. With my nephew, I observed that he was able to improve greatly in school when his grade-school diagnoses were expunged and that stigma did not follow him to high school. So, I figured it was possibly better to not have a "disability" label hanging over his head.

Anyway, he is NOT acing high school so far. The first quarter ends next week. I am trying to help him pull two of his classes out of the "D" basement; one is Covenant Theology and the other is History. He has a "B" in Intermediate Algebra and Health/PE. C in the other classes. The main place he is getting "killed" in the D classes is quizzes and Tests. He is *bombing* them. So, I was helping him tonight with Covenant, because he has a test tomorrow, which is probably his last chance to pull that grade over the edge of D to C. (Not that a C makes me real pleased, but...)

I feel like my helping him makes him miserable. :( He knows I am an A student and he's following DD, who is an A student, too. i don't really know how to be helpful without him feeling like he "sucks" because it doesn't come easily to him. I also struggle to find the line where I need to help him stay on top of things vs. being a "hover mother" and following his classes on Edline, KWIM? Because I was looking at his on-line account, *I* saw that he has a test in Covenant tomorrow, and *I* pointed out that this is probably his last chance to swing a C; when I mentioned it, he said he thought the test was Thursday! :banghead.

I don't know what I need; just some BTDT, perhaps.

 

In a later post, you say that you want to work harder with him and figure it out on your own before seeking evaluations, but here you say that when you help him, it makes him miserable, and you don't know how to help him without making him feel bad. So how will your plan to just work harder with him play out any better than it has up to this point?

 

You have also said you have no doubt that some learning issues are at play, dyslexia at minimum. 

 

You wonder if not having him diagnosed was a mistake. Those are your words.

 

The evaluations will show you how to help him. You say you need this kind of help.

 

You say that you will think about doing it later, but time is running out. His grades are going on his transcript NOW. You say he bombs on tests. If he needs accommodations for the SAT, he needs to have a paper trail starting NOW.

 

I can tell that you are conflicted. But we're addressing the questions that you asked in your OP. We're pointing you to a way to get some of the answers that you say you want and need. You've gotten a lot of good advice, and I hope for your son's sake that you take it. There isn't time for a do-over.

 

 

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I'm not sure why a disagreement regarding legal practice is viewed as hostility.

 

Disagreements don't require capital letters, or multiple people repeating the same thing.  (not saying you were the one 'yelling").  I wasn't engaging in a legal discussion.  I was simply relaying what I had been told.  I'm not sure why sharing my experience should elicit such strong reactions.  Perhaps "hostile" was too strong.  But, either I was told this or I wasn't.  If the school told me, then maybe they were mistaken, or maybe the school district is being lazy or is involved in illicit practices.  I have no way of knowing.  If I wasn't told this, then either I imagined it, or misunderstood it, or I'm lying.  I know what I heard, and I know what I read, and I'm not lying.  I'll leave it to you to figure it out.  If you or the others who "disagree" with me would like to take the legality up with my school district, go ahead.   

[Storygirl]

I don't get it. Who was talking in all caps?

[Catwoman]

Disagreements don't require capital letters, or multiple people repeating the same thing. (not saying you were the one 'yelling"). I wasn't engaging in a legal discussion. I was simply relaying what I had been told. I'm not sure why sharing my experience should elicit such strong reactions. Perhaps "hostile" was too strong. But, either I was told this or I wasn't. If the school told me, then maybe they were mistaken, or maybe the school district is being lazy or is involved in illicit practices. I have no way of knowing. If I wasn't told this, then either I imagined it, or misunderstood it, or I'm lying. I know what I heard, and I know what I read, and I'm not lying. I'll leave it to you to figure it out. If you or the others who "disagree" with me would like to take the legality up with my school district, go ahead.

FWIW, I thought you were just trying to be helpful. I was surprised at the hostility as well.

 

I don't know whether or not Quill is even continuing to read this thread. I know everyone meant well and that people have strong feelings on this issue, but some of the posts are downright insulting toward her. I know that at least a few people think she is ignoring the problem, but since she came here and started a thread about it, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and believe that she wants to find the best way to help her son. Based on the tone of some of the responses, I can understand why she might have felt a bit defensive.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

See -  I don't understand what you said there. My dd's dx is that she has a permanent disability. That's what the psychologist had to write on the forms: It's permanent. It's disabling.

 

It's not something she can 'work through'. 

 

I would gently suggest that there is a range of learning challenges & while some children - like perhaps yours -  just need a bit of remediation/tutoring/change in curriculum & a tincture of time, others have real, permanent, differences in their brains. So perhaps you're misunderstanding the challenges other children face.

 

& I also don't understand why the second we say diagnosis, the topic of medication comes into it.  Medication is not the treatment of choice of written output disorder, or executive function, or working memory deficits for example.

 

& just because you take an assessment doesn't mean that they'll find something to label your kid with. They don't. Sometimes they say: "everything here looks fine. Maybe look at motivation or stress or peer groups if academics are an issue, because the rest is fine..... "

 

The reason it provokes emotion is that some of these posts make it sound like we took the easy way out by getting a dx &/or pursuing treatment &/or meds if that's what our kids needed. Like, if we'd just buckled down & worked harder & not put up with this labelling nonsense, these kids would be just fine.... That's how some of the posts are sounding to me....  It's different than saying: my kid had some struggles but it turned out with tutoring & some time he was fine. Honestly, that's a kid that didn't have a learning disability in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

I know nothing of your dd or her diagnosis, and I can't speak to whether it's permanent or not.  Of course there is a wide range of learning challenges.  And, it was not my intention to imply that I believe all diagnoses are false, or that they all require medication.  I know I never said that.  All I said was that *we* considered the possibility that *our* ds was ADD, but didn't see that the diagnosis would be helpful because *we* didn't want to medicate, and that the accommodations *he* needed shouldn't require an official diagnosis of any kind.  We chose not to have our son evaluated for ADD.  I don't know why that is taken to mean that I believe no one should ever have their child evaluated.  

 

Medication is the medical treatment of choice for ADD and ADHD.  There are other courses of treatments that don't involve medications, but they don't get recognition in the medical community.  That's too bad.  Perhaps some of the conditions that are considered "permanent" by the medical community aren't really permanent.  Just a thought.  Not a judgment.  

 

By "working through", I don't mean that ds just buckled down and worked harder.  I mean he did almost an hour of cross-lateral therapy everyday for a year, and that all that hard work paid off.  In sixth grade, among other hurdles, he went from not being able to write more than two sentences without a total meltdown to writing page after page without complaint.  I attribute that success to the therapy exercises he did every day, and the dietary changes he made.  He worked through *his* learning disabilities.  He wasn't able to do certain things (like write, or memorize information) for six years, and then, after a lot of hard work with cross lateral therapy and certain specific dietary supplements to help with his brain chemistry, he was able to write, and to learn.  Hooray for him!  Hooray for us!  Again, I'm not saying it will work for everyone, or even anyone else, but it worked for *us*.  I don't know why my sharing our experience is so threatening to some people.  I never said, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that I believe that you (or anyone who chooses any kind of treatment) "took the easy way out by getting a dx &/or pursuing treatments &/or meds if that's what (your) kids needed."  I was only sharing *our* experience and *our* choices with *our* son.  

 

I'm sure that there are professionals out there who will give an honest assessment, and that they sometimes say that "everything here looks fine," and send you on your way.  There are also many who will just tell you (the parent) whatever they think you want to hear.  Again, I'm speaking only to ADD diagnoses, which are primarily based on the statements of parents and teachers.  To my knowledge, based on my research, (which is not exhaustive) there is not an objective test that is given for ADD/ADHD.  I believe that my son's school (particularly one regular ed. teacher and the special ed. teacher, but possibly others as well) would have written whatever was needed to get my son an ADD diagnosis.  Based on that, if I had chosen to pursue it, he would have been diagnosed with and treated for a condition that he apparently doesn't have.  That is my point.   

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Suzanne, this post is my sincere attempt to answer your question about why people are responding to your posts as they are. It is not meant to be hostile in any way.

 

I scanned through the entire thread again to be sure of what I'm going to say. It looks like you were the first person (in post 25) to mention medication. We haven't talked about medication or ADHD at all regarding Quill's son. The focus has been mainly on dyslexia and dysgraphia and evaluating for learning disabilities in general. In fact, all of the responses regarding medicating and ADHD have been to your posts, not Quill's, because you are the one who brought it up. I don't think Quill has mentioned ADHD once. Many of the ADHD related posts have been made in response to incorrect information in your posts.

 

It's not hostility to post corrections. It might make you feel badly to have people not agree with what you said, but that doesn't mean that those people are being hostile.

 

If you really want to know what people are responding to in your posts .... You say that your son never had ADHD, but then you tout that he made it through school without medication. Your comments that you could have influenced the teachers and doctors to diagnose him with ADHD seem dismissive to those of us who have had very thorough evaluations of our children by experts and professionals, as if anyone can get a diagnosis through trickery. Your comments about how great it is that your son has achieved so much on his own (and good for him, by the way), suggest that he took a better path than those who have had accommodations. It's your tone that people are responding to.

 

It's find and lovely and helpful to post success stories and encouragements. But your posts seem to promote the idea that your son's success shows that evaluations are unnecessary -- that people can do just fine without them. And you include some very negative comments about medication, even though your family has no direct experience taking them. So you introduced the topic of ADHD and meds to the thread, then got irritated when people responded to you.

 

There is real pain and struggle represented in the lives of many who have posted on this thread. Your posts don't acknowledge that and yet contain some real negative views of getting evaluations and seeking help. Your son is thriving without outside intervention, and the suggestion underlying your words is that that can happen for everyone (you may not be saying that, but it is how it comes across). The reality for many of our children is that they will not overcome their issues without help, because true learning disabilities don't go away over time -- they are life long and can have a significant impact on their chances for success in school and beyond. So your comments sting a bit. Yes, there may be an emotional response to what you've been saying. That's natural. However, reading through the posts, I don't see hostility, just a discussion.

 

ETA: I see when re-reading Quill's OP that she mentioned ADHD there, but it was not discussed otherwise in this thread (and medication was not mentioned at all) until you brought it up.

 

Thank you for taking the time to address my thoughts.  I will attempt to clarify myself by addressing each of your statements in turn.

 

Yes, as you edited, Quill did mention ADHD.  My response to her was only sharing our experience, and the information that was given to me by my son's school (that medication comes before accommodation in our school district).  I'm not sure why so many people felt the need to correct me so strongly.  "Hostility" was probably the wrong word.  Perhaps "strong disagreement" would have been more accurate, but the disagreement is with my school official.  Why "yell" at me?  A "correction" doesn't require all caps and exclamation points.  I don't remember who "corrected" me with caps, so I'm not accusing you.  Please don't take it personally.  If I can find the information from my school district that the special ed. teacher shared with me, I will post it.  

 

I said we considered that our son might have ADD, and that (if I had wanted) I could have had him diagnosed.  I'm not talking about dyslexia or dysgraphia or any other learning disability.  I'm speaking to ADD.  It is my impression, based on my research, that diagnosis for ADD/ADHD is primarily based on the report of teachers and parents and other caregivers.  There is no objective test for either condition.  It is purely subjective.  I am not dismissing anyone or their experience with their children, or their diagnosis.  All I was saying was that false diagnoses happen all the time.  It is easy to find a doctor to diagnose ADD/ADHD and write out a prescription, if that is what you want, whether or not your child truly has the disorder.  That is not the same thing as saying that *all* diagnoses are false, and that all doctors are frauds, and that all parents whose children have been diagnosed are lazy or stupid or anything else.  

 

Some of the reactions I'm receiving are to things I never said, or even implied.  As you said, you are reacting to things my posts "seem to promote".  You react strongly to 'suggestions underlying my words', *correcting* things I didn't say, and then you tell me there is a problem with my tone?  You are not acknowledging my unspoken pain and struggle, yet you expect me to acknowledge yours?  Is it possible that your pain and struggle has made you hyper-sensitive to me and my experience, which, though different, is just as valid and includes much pain and struggle as well?

 

I'm sorry if my son's success causes you pain.  I honestly was only trying to commiserate with Quill, let her know that she's not alone and that my kids seem to be a lot like her kids, and that things can get better.  Aren't we here to share experiences?  Seriously, I'm one voice out of 100.  Am I really that threatening?  

[MistyMountain]

Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes extra exercise and caffeine does the trick.

About 10% of the time caffeine is enough. It is worth a try but for many people it isn't enough.

[LucyStoner]

Pre-diagnosis my husband used to mainline coffee. I wish I were kidding. On a workday, he'd polish off the huge thermos that he brought to work, plus a pot or so from the breakroom and usually another 2-3 cups. There were days he drank 4 or more straight shots of espresso besides drinking drip and lattes. This did help him tho it is a wonder he didn't spend the whole day peeing like a pregnant lady. But that much caffeine, not to mention the acidity, isn't really good for you. He's a bike commuter and fit as a fiddle. For every person with ADD helped by exercise and caffeine, there are many more helped by the right medication.

 

There are plenty of reasons to choose not to medicate mild ADD or to delay starting medication until kids are older. But there are lots of things you can do besides medication or in conjunction with medication.

 

My 5 year old son seems to have some ADD traits at times. That said, he's 5 and I tend to agree with his pediatrician and think most 5 year olds can seem to have ADD at times. Besides resorting to giving him 1/2 cans of Barqs root beer at times, it's not an issue for him at this time that I think needs evaluation. So I really do understand not rushing in when they are young. When he is older and I feel an evaluation would be more meaningful, he will have one. He certainly won't just see a regular doctor for that though. My older son's autism evaluation and my husband's testing for ADD were not just quickie things. I don't see hacks when it comes to health matters! Parents are right to be skeptical of teacher driven quick regular doc office visit diagnostics but from everything I can see with my own family and my friends who have kids of various ages with ADD, that is not the norm around here at all. It's not 1998.

[unsinkable]

Thank you for taking the time to address my thoughts. I will attempt to clarify myself by addressing each of your statements in turn.

 

Yes, as you edited, Quill did mention ADHD. My response to her was only sharing our experience, and the information that was given to me by my son's school (that medication comes before accommodation in our school district). I'm not sure why so many people felt the need to correct me so strongly. "Hostility" was probably the wrong word. Perhaps "strong disagreement" would have been more accurate, but the disagreement is with my school official. Why "yell" at me? A "correction" doesn't require all caps and exclamation points. I don't remember who "corrected" me with caps, so I'm not accusing you. Please don't take it personally. If I can find the information from my school district that the special ed. teacher shared with me, I will post it.

 

I said we considered that our son might have ADD, and that (if I had wanted) I could have had him diagnosed. I'm not talking about dyslexia or dysgraphia or any other learning disability. I'm speaking to ADD. It is my impression, based on my research, that diagnosis for ADD/ADHD is primarily based on the report of teachers and parents and other caregivers. There is no objective test for either condition. It is purely subjective. I am not dismissing anyone or their experience with their children, or their diagnosis. All I was saying was that false diagnoses happen all the time. It is easy to find a doctor to diagnose ADD/ADHD and write out a prescription, if that is what you want, whether or not your child truly has the disorder. That is not the same thing as saying that *all* diagnoses are false, and that all doctors are frauds, and that all parents whose children have been diagnosed are lazy or stupid or anything else.

 

Some of the reactions I'm receiving are to things I never said, or even implied. As you said, you are reacting to things my posts "seem to promote". You react strongly to 'suggestions underlying my words', *correcting* things I didn't say, and then you tell me there is a problem with my tone? You are not acknowledging my unspoken pain and struggle, yet you expect me to acknowledge yours? Is it possible that your pain and struggle has made you hyper-sensitive to me and my experience, which, though different, is just as valid and includes much pain and struggle as well?

 

I'm sorry if my son's success causes you pain. I honestly was only trying to commiserate with Quill, let her know that she's not alone and that my kids seem to be a lot like her kids, and that things can get better. Aren't we here to share experiences? Seriously, I'm one voice out of 100. Am I really that threatening?

Suzanne,

 

I took your posts in the spirit of which you intended...another family's story, and journey with a learner who needed assistance above and beyond what is "typical."

 

I am so happy for you and your son, and I think it takes a lot of courage to you to share so much. I appreciate it, and I'll bet there are other people who also do. And I say that as someone who made different choices than you for my own family. :-)

 

:grouphug:

[OneStepAtATime]

FWIW, Suzanne, I don't think anyone was suggesting you were lying or hallucinating or anything of that nature.  I think they were trying to clarify that what you were told is actually illegal.  Some are just very strong at speaking their mind.  I am sorry you feel jumped on.

 

Having worked in the school system I can attest to the fact that there are, sadly, administrators and teacher out there that are NOT informed of the laws regarding learning challenges (or even homeschooling for that matter, as many are aware).  I think people were just trying to make certain anyone reading this thread knows that the statements given to you by your son's school are actually advocating a policy that is illegal in this country.  The school probably isn't even aware that it is illegal.  I would hope they wrote the policy out of ignorance or misinterpretation of the law, not willful disobedience of it.  But it is illegal and parents need to be informed of that.  In fact, I would strongly urge all parents to do independent research when dealing with a school system.  They are often ignorant.  

 

Many members of my family are teachers, from elementary all the way to University level.  I have an uncle who taught for several decades and his specialty was learning challenged kids.  My mother is a reading specialist and taught both advanced and remedial reading classes.  They will both admit now that they had no clue how to help my kids and had a tremendous about of ignorance and bias that colored their thinking.  These are people with advanced degrees in education and learning challenges.  Their degrees were not helpful.  My own constant independent research and then finally getting evaluations through the private sector was what eventually netted us better answers.  If you have a child that struggles, do the research, please.  Don't trust your school system to genuinely know what they are talking about.  Maybe they do.  That's great.  But do your own research.  There is a LOT of false information out there.

 

I would like to clarify my own responses in general, at this point.  Getting evaluations through our local schools has netted much pain and confusion and false information for many of my friends and family.  In fact, one principal of one school is so disbelieving that there even is such thing as a learning challenge (instead of lazy children) that she has started refusing state funding so she doesn't have to provide any remediation or accommodations for children with diagnosed learning challenges.  She has caused tremendous pain, suffering and needless guilt for many in our community.  And her attitude is pervasive.  Getting an evaluation through our ps would NOT be something I would encourage for anyone living in this area.  A label here can be a death knell.

 

But I do feel that evaluations can be a HUGE help in genuinely finding answers for how to effectively help a child.  In fact, I strongly believe that.  I am talking about genuine help that puts them in a better position to learn and succeed for a lifetime.  But that entirely depends on who is doing the evaluation.  Some schools have a clue and some decent training and a healthy viewpoint.  Others are a total nightmare and should be avoided.  There have been stories here regarding both outcomes.  There are many resources for evaluations, though.  If evals through the school seem to cause nothing but heartache and pain, definitely do not go that route.  Honestly, private evals seem to me a better option in many instances since you can control who ever has that information afterwards and what will be done with it.

 

The thing that genuinely concerns me in general about learning challenges in an undiagnosed child is what has been mentioned upthread.  Many times, consciously and subconsciously, it is assumed that the child struggles because they just aren't working hard enough (when in fact they are probably working harder than anyone else in their classroom or home setting) or that getting an evaluation is a way to find crutches and excuses to not work hard at all.  Both are false and hurtful and can cause lifetime harm.  The other part of that is the child is almost certainly working needlessly hard.  There may very well be better ways for them to learn or therapies that will actually help them to do better.  All that effort can be put into something truly useful.

 

If I had not avoided evaluations for so many years my DD would not have suffered and struggled and begun to permanently internalize a sense of failure and lack of ability.  Evaluations gave me answers not crutches.  Now when she puts in all of that tremendous effort, she is working smarter not harder.  She is learning.  She is reading/spelling/writing/understanding math in a way she never could before.  Is she succeeding now because we gave her crutches and easy outs after getting an evaluation?  No.  It is because we got scientifically based answers that gave us the specific information we needed to put her on a better path, not just through school but for a lifetime.

 

Not every child needs to get an evaluation.  But any child who struggles significantly deserves answers and a better path.  Old school biases against evaluations/labels and really poorly done evaluations and remediation/accommodations through the school systems can and have caused lasting harm.  It makes me sad.

[LucyStoner]

FWIW, Suzanne, I don't think anyone was suggesting you were lying or hallucinating or anything of that nature. I think they were trying to clarify that what you were told is actually illegal. Some are just very strong at speaking their mind. I am sorry you feel jumped on.

 

Having worked in the school system I can attest to the fact that there are, sadly, administrators and teacher out there that are NOT informed of the laws regarding learning challenges (or even homeschooling for that matter, as many are aware). I think people were just trying to make certain anyone reading this thread knows that the statements given to you by your son's school are actually advocating a policy that is illegal in this country. The school probably isn't even aware that it is illegal. I would hope they wrote the policy out of ignorance or misinterpretation of the law, not willful disobedience of it. But it is illegal and parents need to be informed of that. In fact, I would strongly urge all parents to do independent research when dealing with a school system. They are often ignorant.

 

Many members of my family are teachers, from elementary all the way to University level. I have an uncle who taught for several decades and his specialty was learning challenged kids. My mother is a reading specialist and taught both advanced and remedial reading classes. They will both admit now that they had no clue how to help my kids and had a tremendous about of ignorance and bias that colored their thinking. These are people with advanced degrees in education and learning challenges. Their degrees were not helpful. My own constant independent research and then finally getting evaluations through the private sector was what eventually netted us better answers. If you have a child that struggles, do the research, please. Don't trust your school system to genuinely know what they are talking about. Maybe they do. That's great. But do your own research. There is a LOT of false information out there.

 

I would like to clarify my own responses in general, at this point. Getting evaluations through our local schools has netted much pain and confusion and false information for many of my friends and family. In fact, one principal of one school is so disbelieving that there even is such thing as a learning challenge (instead of lazy children) that she has started refusing state funding so she doesn't have to provide any remediation or accommodations for children with diagnosed learning challenges. She has caused tremendous pain, suffering and needless guilt for many in our community. And her attitude is pervasive. Getting an evaluation through our ps would NOT be something I would encourage for anyone living in this area. A label here can be a death knell.

 

But I do feel that evaluations can be a HUGE help in genuinely finding answers for how to effectively help a child. In fact, I strongly believe that. I am talking about genuine help that puts them in a better position to learn and succeed for a lifetime. But that entirely depends on who is doing the evaluation. Some schools have a clue and some decent training and a healthy viewpoint. Others are a total nightmare and should be avoided. There have been stories here regarding both outcomes. There are many resources for evaluations, though. If evals through the school seem to cause nothing but heartache and pain, definitely do not go that route. Honestly, private evals seem to me a better option in many instances since you can control who ever has that information afterwards and what will be done with it.

 

The thing that genuinely concerns me in general about learning challenges in an undiagnosed child is what has been mentioned upthread. Many times, consciously and subconsciously, it is assumed that the child struggles because they just aren't working hard enough (when in fact they are probably working harder than anyone else in their classroom or home setting) or that getting an evaluation is a way to find crutches and excuses to not work hard at all. Both are false and hurtful and can cause lifetime harm. The other part of that is the child is almost certainly working needlessly hard. There may very well be better ways for them to learn or therapies that will actually help them to do better. All that effort can be put into something truly useful.

 

If I had not avoided evaluations for so many years my DD would not have suffered and struggled and begun to permanently internalize a sense of failure and lack of ability. Evaluations gave me answers not crutches. Now when she puts in all of that tremendous effort, she is working smarter not harder. She is learning. She is reading/spelling/writing/understanding math in a way she never could before. Is she succeeding now because we gave her crutches and easy outs after getting an evaluation? No. It is because we got scientifically based answers that gave us the specific information we needed to put her on a better path, not just through school but for a lifetime.

 

 

Exactly to all of this. I realize I capped CAN NOT about the legal reqs for IEPs. It was for emphasis, not anger at Suzanne. I have been misinformed by school administrators about special ed law more times than I can count. I don't doubt someone told Suzanne this. Unfortunately, there are a lot of school administrators that are really off base when it comes to IEPs. To preserve my son's right to testing and college accommodations if they are needed, and to allow us access to various things we want now, my homeschooled son in fact has an IEP that we update with the district each year through the homeschool center he attends very PT (one academic class and 1 elective). They are required by law to give me about 4 million reams of paper notices each time. Unlike the vast majority of parents, I read the stuff. Holy wowzama, verbal misinformation literally abounds. It's so bad that most cities have lawyers and just ordinary parent advocates to help parents negotiate for their children effectively.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Quill, you obviously are comparing your son to an older child. Do you do this in front of him? You say he is miserable when you help him. You say his struggles are evident in your husband and relatives, yet they are very successful and found ways to deal with their LD's. Does your son know how similar he is to your dh? The most important thing-- there comes a time when it's not all about what you or dh want. What does your son want? If he knew you truly would do anything to help him, would he want to try something different? Evaluations, therapy, etc?

From your posts, I'm seeing a stubborn mom who chooses to let her son struggle because of her own biases. I also suspect you are fearful of asserting yourself to your dh, because he may see outside help as some sort of failure.

I feel sorry for a child who obviously needs an alternative way of learning, who probably wonders why he can't "ace" school like his sibling, who has parents who have the means but not the will to at the very least get an outside evaluation.

Even your offhand comment to someone who recommends a book-" I may read it" seems like an offhand dismissal.

Best wishes to your son, and the younger one as well.

 

You said what I was thinking but in a much nicer way.  I just can't understand how a mother can watch her child struggle (while knowing a possible cause of the struggles) and then refuse to do anything to help him.

[LucyStoner]

For people who think Quill's been treated harshly, imagine how everyone would be reacting if she thought her son had cerebral palsy but she didn't want to stigmatize him by getting leg braces or communication devices or, if warranted, a wheelchair. No one would think that was a fully rational or healthy parental response. People would be like "good grief! Let the child have help so he can be mobile and talk to people!"

 

There is a huge amount of bigotry and bias against "hidden" challenges. This is unwarranted and extremely harmful to many children everywhere. This is why a lot of parents are so passionate about destigmatizing it and in encouraging parents to get past the same doubt/reluctance that others have had to move past. I wasn't wild about realizing my son needed an autism evaluation. But I realized it wasn't about what I wanted to admit, it was about what he needed.

[Laura Corin]

Coming late to this discussion: Calvin was diagnosed with a learning disability.  He did not need medication but he did need specific help, particularly a keyboard for exams.  Without that, he would not have got the grades to enter the university he currently attends, which - so far - seems to be the perfect fit.  

 

I cannot fathom the idea that he should have been denied the accommodations that he needed, which just allow him to produce the work that he is intellectually capable of, through some idea that acknowledgement of the deficit was damaging in itself; that because his coordination was many years behind average functioning, he should have been denied the opportunity to succeed.

 

Get a diagnosis.  Get the help.  Allow the child to achieve.

 

ETA: I apologise for my tone.  This subject makes me cross.

 

L

[texasmama]

For people who think Quill's been treated harshly, imagine how everyone would be reacting if she thought her son had cerebral palsy but she didn't want to stigmatize him by getting leg braces or communication devices or, if warranted, a wheelchair. No one would think that was a fully rational or healthy parental response. People would be like "good grief! Let the child have help so he can be mobile and talk to people!"

 

There is a huge amount of bigotry and bias against "hidden" challenges. This is unwarranted and extremely harmful to many children everywhere. This is why a lot of parents are so passionate about destigmatizing it and in encouraging parents to get past the same doubt/reluctance that others have had to move past. I wasn't wild about realizing my son needed an autism evaluation. But I realized it wasn't about what I wanted to admit, it was about what he needed.

100 times yes.

 

I try always to post with kindness.  I hope I have posted with kindness in this thread.  What I said needed to be said.  I believe strongly that Quill is a loving mother and a great lady, but her thinking about this is in error.   This happens to the very best parents who are "too close to the forest to see the trees". She is also grappling with a situation in which the other parent is against getting evaluations. Not regarding my SN kids and evaluations, but I have BTDT with other issues in my life, and I have had some people speaking kind but firm truth into my life.  Thankful for that.  At the time, I was not too pleased, but I know it was done from concern and love.  I'm sure Quill is in a very hard position, and maybe this thread will provide her with some clarity. 

[unsinkable]

100 times yes.

 

I try always to post with kindness. I hope I have posted with kindness in this thread. What I said needed to be said. I believe strongly that Quill is a loving mother and a great lady, but her thinking about this is in error. This happens to the very best parents who are "too close to the forest to see the trees". She is also grappling with a situation in which the other parent is against getting evaluations. Not regarding my SN kids and evaluations, but I have BTDT with other issues in my life, and I have had some people speaking kind but firm truth into my life. Thankful for that. At the time, I was not too pleased, but I know it was done from concern and love. I'm sure Quill is in a very hard position, and maybe this thread will provide her with some clarity.

There is also wisdom in letting things sit for a bit, once said, and not repeating the same thing again and again, in stronger and stronger terms.

 

If someone can't see the forest for the trees, it might take a bit of time to be able to open one's eyes.

 

It is painful to come to grips with idea that our children might need help beyond what we are capable of giving.

[albeto.]

Thank you for taking the time to address my thoughts.  I will attempt to clarify myself by addressing each of your statements in turn.

 

Yes, as you edited, Quill did mention ADHD.  My response to her was only sharing our experience, and the information that was given to me by my son's school (that medication comes before accommodation in our school district).  I'm not sure why so many people felt the need to correct me so strongly.  "Hostility" was probably the wrong word.  Perhaps "strong disagreement" would have been more accurate, but the disagreement is with my school official.  Why "yell" at me?  A "correction" doesn't require all caps and exclamation points.  I don't remember who "corrected" me with caps, so I'm not accusing you.  Please don't take it personally.  If I can find the information from my school district that the special ed. teacher shared with me, I will post it.

Hi Suzanne, I know you're not addressing this to me, but if I recall, you responded right after my post and mentioned feeling hostility. I assumed you interpreted my post as being one of the hostile ones. I don't actually feel any hostility, anger, frustration, or any negative emotion in this thread in general, and certainly not towards you. I didn't interpret your posts as anything but inspired by a since desire to be kind and helpful. Just wanted to get that out there because I think there's an important issue (a couple, actually) that are being glossed over because the emotions are taking center stage. That's too bad. The issues are important to so many people, not only now, but those who will read this thread in the future. Let's try and think about this only from the point of view of helping the children.

 

This particular issue, that the school district personnel told you medication is necessary before beginning the IEP process is important. It's important because any parent should be aware of their legal rights when it comes to caring for their children with special needs. Repeating false information should be called out every time. This isn't an attack against you, it's a matter of exposing falsehoods. It's also a matter of addressing a culture of mistrust and even paranoia about medication. These things should be called out and this very thread is a perfect example of why - the OP is afraid to respond to her child's needs because of this culture of mistrust. When people are responding to your posts, they are responding to the content in your posts, and that content was not only erroneous, but a harmful propagation of a detrimental belief. The content of your post was to promote pseudo-science over actual information collected objectively, systematically, and consistently. Pseudo-science should always be called out, even if the person who believes it is a nice person. The stakes are too high to politely ignore something that is detrimental, not only to the OP's child, but to any child whose parent is already scared of pursuing the resources proven to be helpful in this regard. It's not personal, well, it is, but in the direction of the children, not against you.

 

 

I said we considered that our son might have ADD, and that (if I had wanted) I could have had him diagnosed.  I'm not talking about dyslexia or dysgraphia or any other learning disability.  I'm speaking to ADD.  It is my impression, based on my research, that diagnosis for ADD/ADHD is primarily based on the report of teachers and parents and other caregivers.  There is no objective test for either condition.  It is purely subjective.  I am not dismissing anyone or their experience with their children, or their diagnosis.  All I was saying was that false diagnoses happen all the time.  It is easy to find a doctor to diagnose ADD/ADHD and write out a prescription, if that is what you want, whether or not your child truly has the disorder.  That is not the same thing as saying that *all* diagnoses are false, and that all doctors are frauds, and that all parents whose children have been diagnosed are lazy or stupid or anything else.

 

While there is no one objective test to screen for ADD, like there is for Down Syndrome, there is still a systematic approach recognized and respected by most professionals. It's not a matter of simply walking into a psychologist's office and explaining how wound up your child can be. There's some genuine merit to the idea that children today may be over-medicated, but that doesn't mean Quill's son shouldn't be considered for medication if the specialists determine that would help him. It's not logical to assume he would be over-medicated, or even that medication would be recommended. Nor is it helpful to share anecdotal stories that reinforce that fear, which is what I responded to. Again, this in no way reflects my opinion about you as a person, or any emotional reaction I feel (quite neutral, actually), it reflects my desire to expose erroneous and dangerous ideas and contribute to the chorus offering productive, supportive advice. 

 

 

Some of the reactions I'm receiving are to things I never said, or even implied.  As you said, you are reacting to things my posts "seem to promote".  You react strongly to 'suggestions underlying my words', *correcting* things I didn't say, and then you tell me there is a problem with my tone?  You are not acknowledging my unspoken pain and struggle, yet you expect me to acknowledge yours?  Is it possible that your pain and struggle has made you hyper-sensitive to me and my experience, which, though different, is just as valid and includes much pain and struggle as well?

 

I'm sorry if my son's success causes you pain.  I honestly was only trying to commiserate with Quill, let her know that she's not alone and that my kids seem to be a lot like her kids, and that things can get better.  Aren't we here to share experiences?  Seriously, I'm one voice out of 100.  Am I really that threatening?

 

Fwiw, I don't feel any threat from your tone. I do, however, recognize the threat inherent in your belief, the one you're promoting. The threat is one that affects many kids unnecessarily, and Quill's child is one of them. She doesn't need more stories to reinforce her fear of pursuing a specialized approach. She needs cold, hard facts so she can make a logical, reasoned decision. Responses to your posts are responses to the false information and erroneous conclusions. This isn't about you, it's about helping kids (not just Quill's, anyone who is reading or will come along and read this). It's about exposing a false belief that certain skills, whether they are educational like in this discussion or social like children on the autistic spectrum, are a result of willful laziness, naughtiness, lack of trying diligently enough, or any kind of "character flaw." Parents of autistic children worked like the dickens to remove the social impression everyone "knew" to be true about autism - that mothers were the culprits for not showing enough love to their young children. Well, parents of children with more hidden challenges are working like the dickens now to remove the social impression everyone "knows" to be true about learning challenges - that mothers simply need to make their children put in the time and effort to get 'er done. Frankly, that's not only offensive to parents who are blamed even though they "do everything right," but it's ultimately dangerous to the children who face punishment (formal and informal) for being "too stupid," or "too lazy." A child who has learned to identify himself as stupid, as Quill's son apparently has, has already bought into the idea. He's already blaming himself for things he cannot possibly be culpable for. My contribution to this thread to help home educators realize that special needs are not a matter of stupidity or laziness. No child should be his own enemy. That's a terrible burden on a person. Quill has the opportunity to stop it. So do others. 

[Suzanne in ABQ]

When I spoke of hostility, I was speaking more of the general tone of the overall thread, and the way folks were jumping in to emphasize to Quill (again and again and again, over 100 times) what had already been said quite well.  

 

I do now understand that the strong feelings toward my school district's policy were motivated by a desire to stop wrong information, not directed at me, personally.  

 

I am really not promoting anything at all.  A few folks here have taken the few words I shared and filled in all the blanks for themselves, assuming they knew my thoughts and beliefs, and have reacted strongly to things they *think* I believe.  I have tried to clarify the things I apparently didn't state clearly enough.  I can't do anything to clarify the things folks imagine I am thinking.  I am not promoting *anything*.  I am not trying to prove anything or even give advice.  I am only sharing one experience, and it is factual, but that doesn't mean I believe it applies to everyone.  Of course, it doesn't.  

 

There are *many* reasons why a high school freshman, in a b&m school for the first time in his life, might have trouble getting it together the first semester.  There are social pressures, deadline pressures, authority pressures, sibling pressures (not measuring up to an older sibling's track record, middle child issues, etc), separation from home, even just realizing for the first time that, in a few short years, he will need to make his own way in the world.  Maybe, on top of all of these struggles, he has a learning disability, and maybe not.  Having him evaluated is a valid option.  Waiting for him sort things out is also a perfectly valid option.  

 

Isn't it grand that we live in a country where (for the most part) parents still have the right to decide how to raise their own children?  Would you want that right to be taken away, and given to "experts" and "authorities", as it is in other countries?  It seems that, as homeschoolers reaping the benefit of those who paved the way before us, we as a group should understand the importance of that right, even when we don't agree with the choices other parents make.  

 

 

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

When I spoke of hostility, I was speaking more of the general tone of the overall thread, and the way folks were jumping in to emphasize to Quill (again and again and again, over 100 times) what had already been said quite well.  

 

I do now understand that the strong feelings toward my school district's policy were motivated by a desire to stop wrong information, not directed at me, personally.  

 

I am really not promoting anything at all.  A few folks here have taken the few words I shared and filled in all the blanks for themselves, assuming they knew my thoughts and beliefs, and have reacted strongly to things they *think* I believe.  I have tried to clarify the things I apparently didn't state clearly enough.  I can't do anything to clarify the things folks imagine I am thinking.  I am not promoting *anything*.  I am not trying to prove anything or even give advice.  I am only sharing one experience, and it is factual, but that doesn't mean I believe it applies to everyone.  Of course, it doesn't.  

 

There are *many* reasons why a high school freshman, in a b&m school for the first time in his life, might have trouble getting it together the first semester.  There are social pressures, deadline pressures, authority pressures, sibling pressures (not measuring up to an older sibling's track record, middle child issues, etc), separation from home, even just realizing for the first time that, in a few short years, he will need to make his own way in the world.  Maybe, on top of all of these struggles, he has a learning disability, and maybe not.  Having him evaluated is a valid option.  Waiting for him sort things out is also a perfectly valid option.  

 

Isn't it grand that we live in a country where (for the most part) parents still have the right to decide how to raise their own children?  Would you want that right to be taken away, and given to "experts" and "authorities", as it is in other countries?  It seems that, as homeschoolers reaping the benefit of those who paved the way before us, we as a group should understand the importance of that right, even when we don't agree with the choices other parents make.  

 

When there is a family history of learning disabilities, then no, waiting isn't really a valid option.

 

Parents have the right to raise their children, which also means they should be accepting the responsibility to do so in a rational manner.  Refusing to seek help due to "mommy instinct" or  lack of understanding of learning disabilities and how they can be managed is not acting in the best interest of the child.

 

[Laura Corin]

 

There are *many* reasons why a high school freshman, in a b&m school for the first time in his life, might have trouble getting it together the first semester.  There are social pressures, deadline pressures, authority pressures, sibling pressures (not measuring up to an older sibling's track record, middle child issues, etc), separation from home, even just realizing for the first time that, in a few short years, he will need to make his own way in the world.  Maybe, on top of all of these struggles, he has a learning disability, and maybe not.  Having him evaluated is a valid option.  Waiting for him sort things out is also a perfectly valid option.  

 

 

I would put it the other way round.  

 

Calvin certainly had many of the issues you mention when he went to 'high school' at 13.  Thank goodness he didn't have to struggle with an undiagnosed LD at the same time!  He had had therapy, and accommodations were in place.  Phew!  One thing ticked off - time to concentrate on the others.

 

L

[texasmama]

There is also wisdom in letting things sit for a bit, once said, and not repeating the same thing again and again, in stronger and stronger terms.

 

If someone can't see the forest for the trees, it might take a bit of time to be able to open one's eyes.

 

It is painful to come to grips with idea that our children might need help beyond what we are capable of giving.

Of course.

 

I meant no harm, only advocacy for the child. 

[Guest]

I really regret every word I have said here. I would delete them all, except I always find it chicken when people do that, so I let it stand. There are incredible leaps in here made by posters who are scrutinizing things I have said to leap to a hundred different judgements about what I am, what I care about, and what I do. I never even got to talk much about what I actually meant to speak to - the title of this thread. Accommodations or no accommodations, evals or none, meds or nothing, ds will be very unlikely to perform academically on par with his older sister.

 

But nevermind.

[LucyStoner]

Different kids are different. Bluntly, I outpaced both of my siblings academically. Not by a little either and not just in some subjects. Not because there was anything better about me or worse about them but because my talents are ones that are well rewarded in an academic setting. I wouldn't even say I am smarter than them- I was just a better student. I was a better student because I was a more efficient reader and a much stronger writer.

 

My older son is very gifted and far ahead of his peers in certain academic areas like science and reading. When he was my younger son's age he was reading and understanding/discussing issues of National Geographic. My younger son is sounding out picture readers and I will be estatic if he starts reading very easy chapter books before he is 7. My younger son OTOH intuits stuff that is beyond his much older brother. For instance, when we are driving my younger son knows the routes to any place he's been more than twice, even long out of state trips. My older son has literally gotten lost walking between our apartment and the library 3 straight blocks away.

 

I think most parents with more than one kid probably observe big differences between their kids. I think it is important to value the strengths of each and to be careful to avoid direct comparisons or thinking that because one child is strong in something that the others should be too.

 

One thing to remember is that presently most schools, public and private, when it comes to grades anyway, tend to reward only some skill sets. Girls are often stronger in these skill sets. One reason we homeschool is to avoid that bias in approach. This is an interesting book on the gender gap in grades and school:

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0307381293?pc_redir=1412658276&robot_redir=1

[Guest]

I think most parents with more than one kid probably observe big differences between their kids. I think it is important to value the strengths of each and to be careful to avoid direct comparisons or thinking that because one child is strong in something that the others should be too.

Yes, I agree.

[Storygirl]

My older brother (two years older) was a terrible student. I think I mentioned this upthread. He came very close to flunking out of high school and did flunk out of college. On the other hand, I was an excellent student at the top of my high school and college classes (not valedictorian but close). My brother's issues were apathy and rebellion against his parents; he had a poor relationship with them. Honestly, my parents didn't congratulate or encourage me when I did well academically, either -- it was just expected that since I could get grades, that I should (that came with its own issues, which I won't bother to go into here).

 

In hindsight, this is what I think would have helped my brother, and would have helped my relationship with him, and improved his relationship with my parents -- My parents should have found non-academic areas of his life in which to encourage and support him. Things that he could find success in and feel proud about. They should have made him feel secure in their love regardless of his academic abilities and successes. They also should have gotten him some tutoring and given him more oversight of his work. Honestly, they made a lot of mistakes, though not deliberately. They believed in the value of education, but they did not take the time to invest themselves in the lives of their children. They made mistakes in not developing relationships with us that went beyond the letters on our grade cards.

 

Quill, you obviously invest a lot in your son's life, so he already has that as a huge advantage over many other children. I think my best advice about this is to help him find something that can love and be successful at that is not academic, and also to spend time with him doing things that are not school related, so that your one-on-one relationship will continue to thrive even if school remains challenging for him. I'm guessing that these are things that you are already doing that will reap some rewards for him in the end. 

[myfunnybunch]

I really regret every word I have said here. I would delete them all, except I always find it chicken when people do that, so I let it stand. There are incredible leaps in here made by posters who are scrutinizing things I have said to leap to a hundred different judgements about what I am, what I care about, and what I do. I never even got to talk much about what I actually meant to speak to - the title of this thread. Accommodations or no accommodations, evals or none, meds or nothing, ds will be very unlikely to perform academically on par with his older sister.

 

But nevermind.

 

Very, very kindly, hon, it simply doesn't matter whether he performs on par with any other person. His sister, the next door neighbor, you at that age, the class valedictorian, the kids in the class down the hall.....those comparisons have some use, I suppose, in that they inform us to some extent about the amount that a young person is struggling (or not struggling).

 

BUT.

 

The issue at hand, the crucial comparison, is this: How does his current performance compare to the performance he is capable of?

 

I don't have the answer to that. And I can see that the academic comparison is important to you in some way, but it might help to reframe your thinking to let the comparison part go and focus on the rest. I'm sorry this thread has been so difficult for you. This is your precious beloved son, and in your shoes, I'd be feeling very very vulnerable. I believe there's a great deal of value to be found in many of the posts in this thread. Chaff and wheat, all of that. Thank you for being willing to allow the discussion to stand.

 

Cat

 

 

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't know what I need; just some BTDT, perhaps.

I have an adult friend with ADHD who didn't go on meds until she was 30. When she started ritalin, she said it was similar in nature to putting on a pair of glasses. It cleared her thoughts and allowed her to focus in ways that she *couldn't* before. It's not some kind of made up problem. Seek help for your child. Working harder doesn't fix physical problems.

[Slartibartfast]

I really regret every word I have said here. I would delete them all, except I always find it chicken when people do that, so I let it stand. There are incredible leaps in here made by posters who are scrutinizing things I have said to leap to a hundred different judgements about what I am, what I care about, and what I do. I never even got to talk much about what I actually meant to speak to - the title of this thread. Accommodations or no accommodations, evals or none, meds or nothing, ds will be very unlikely to perform academically on par with his older sister.

 

But nevermind.

 

 

I am sorry you feel like you have been ostracized on the thread.

 

A lot of people have really strong emotions about this issue because they have struggled with it so long and only recently has more been done for kids with these issues. When I was younger people just said people were lazy or dumb. It drove my parents crazy because they had piles of tests saying I wasn't remotely dumb and so they would get mad at me.

 

I had never heard of dysgraphia until my son was diagnosed with a genetic condition and that was listed as a symptom. I just said I had weird finger joints that get stuck sometimes.

 

Some people have spent their whole lives being in someone's shadow. My older sister and I  did pursue different activities. She has always been much stronger than me in language areas but that isn't to say I don't have my own strengths.

 

Some of the things you are saying did make me mad because I could see them as something that my parents might have said and how badly that would have impacted me, or they did say similar things to me and I now know how bad their attitude was for me.

 

Do I ever think, "hey maybe if you had been more proactive about this I would have been better off?" Yep, I do think that. I hope you understand that some of the reaction you might be getting may be due to people's own experiences of dealing with this in a generation where little was known and there weren't options. I think it might help if you look at the thread if you were looking at it from his eyes or even look at it from his eyes from further down the road. Some people responding to you have been down that road and it is rough, dark,  and rocky and we only want to help you help him avoid that.

 

I don't think it is fair to say he will never be on par with his sister. I don't believe that but I do believe there is a lot more knowledge and techniques now than when I was a kid. He has a lot more opportunities than many people did from our generation who might have had the same issues.

 

I do think it is important for people to him him play his strengths and techniques for him to study. He is nearly done with school. It would be difficult for you to help him through college. He is going to need to swim on his own at some point.

 

I take medication for adhd and I am nearly 40. It doesn't make me feel stoned or out of it. 

[wapiti]

Accommodations or no accommodations, evals or none, meds or nothing, ds will be very unlikely to perform academically on par with his older sister.

 

FWIW, a few more random thoughts:

 

1.  IMO it is not possible to know this at this juncture.

 

2.  Statistically, siblings are likely to have similar IQ levels, weaknesses aside (the 10-point window may be controversial, I'm not sure).  Personally, I think it's a handy rule of thumb for spotting people with possible learning issues:  people with high-performing siblings who are struggling.  IMO, *this* point is where your comparison between siblings can come in handy.

 

3.  Accommodations and meds are not the only options for help.  Some learning issues have possible therapies for treatments.  It doesn't make sense to get too far afield in speculating on possible options for help when there is no information on the specific weaknesses.  Evals provide that information.

 

4.  Many people have learning issues with no particular label attached.

 

Evals or no evals, feel free to lurk and/or post on the LC board.  There is a friendly bunch of posters over there if you'd like to talk about ways you might help or explore what the issues might be.  Somewhere, both there and on the high school board, there are threads about whether to get evals.  I'll see if I can find some of the ones I remember and add them to this post...

 

Ah, here is one from the high school board:  Knowing When to Test  You might also do a search on the high school board for dyslexia and adhd/executive function and any other issues (there was just a thread on handwriting; sorry I can't recall your ds's specific issues).

 

eta, in case it might be relevant, here is the Hoagies 2e page of article links for dyslexia and dysgraphia

[Joker]

I've hesitated to post here but I decided to go ahead and do it. My parents, especially my mother, had the same belief in regards to me not ever performing as well as my siblings. I ended up dropping out of high school because, even though they never stated those opinions to me, I knew how they felt. I overheard things and noticed differences. Mom now admits it and has apologized. Funny thing is I am actually more intelligent than they are, but no one ever took the time to discover that because of my average grades. They didn't believe in me, but instead assumed my grades and difficulty meant I just wasn't that bright. The one thing I promised myself as a parent is that I would never do the same because it left me with scars. I don't think about them often anymore and am basically over it, but when I read threads like these, and some of the comments, it all comes back. I hope you can find the right way to help your ds.

[Guest]

I've hesitated to post here but I decided to go ahead and do it. My parents, especially my mother, had the same belief in regards to me not ever performing as well as my siblings. I ended up dropping out of high school because, even though they never stated those opinions to me, I knew how they felt. I overheard things and noticed differences. Mom now admits it and has apologized. Funny thing is I am actually more intelligent than they are, but no one ever took the time to discover that because of my average grades. They didn't believe in me, but instead assumed my grades and difficulty meant I just wasn't that bright. The one thing I promised myself as a parent is that I would never do the same because it left me with scars. I don't think about them often anymore and am basically over it, but when I read threads like these, and some of the comments, it all comes back. I hope you can find the right way to help your ds.

In no way do I think my son is not bright. I do not care if he never has a 99% GPA in any class. I do not care if his SAT scores or ACT scores are unimpressive or even downright crappy. I am confident that he will have a successful and fulfilling life, in part because one thing he is, is amazingly proactive. Within a few weeks of starting school, he had already spoken to several classmates about how he wishes there was an Ultimate Frisbee club, petitioned the Assistant Headmaster in person, and sought and filed the necessary paperwork to form a club. I think this is worth more than a perfect GPA; this is how the "doers" of the world make things happen.

 

I tell my son, and all of my children, that the words they use and the things they predict for themselves matter. So, any child who says, "I just stink at X," I emphasize to them not to speak those words, that we all have strengths and weaknesses and that all they can do is their personal best.

 

What I think is difficult is that I don't want to down-play dds success to spare ds from feeling second-best. At dinner a few days ago, dd was telling me about her AP Lit test, how it was amazingly long, covering two class periods, with a fully-developed essay. She got a 97% on it. She also casually said, "Oh, and my quarter average GPA for Trig is a 99.1%." That is quite exceptional. Math is her least-favorite, weakest subject. She debated over taking a math for senior year, but the teacher urged her to take Trig; also, she knew that her favorite colleges want to see four maths. So I'm very pleased with the effort she has put in and very happy with her resulting grades. But I don't want to temper my joy for her because ds it sitting there, too. This is what I find hard to navigate.

[Guest]

My older brother (two years older) was a terrible student. I think I mentioned this upthread. He came very close to flunking out of high school and did flunk out of college. On the other hand, I was an excellent student at the top of my high school and college classes (not valedictorian but close). My brother's issues were apathy and rebellion against his parents; he had a poor relationship with them. Honestly, my parents didn't congratulate or encourage me when I did well academically, either -- it was just expected that since I could get grades, that I should (that came with its own issues, which I won't bother to go into here).

 

In hindsight, this is what I think would have helped my brother, and would have helped my relationship with him, and improved his relationship with my parents -- My parents should have found non-academic areas of his life in which to encourage and support him. Things that he could find success in and feel proud about. They should have made him feel secure in their love regardless of his academic abilities and successes. They also should have gotten him some tutoring and given him more oversight of his work. Honestly, they made a lot of mistakes, though not deliberately. They believed in the value of education, but they did not take the time to invest themselves in the lives of their children. They made mistakes in not developing relationships with us that went beyond the letters on our grade cards.

 

Quill, you obviously invest a lot in your son's life, so he already has that as a huge advantage over many other children. I think my best advice about this is to help him find something that can love and be successful at that is not academic, and also to spend time with him doing things that are not school related, so that your one-on-one relationship will continue to thrive even if school remains challenging for him. I'm guessing that these are things that you are already doing that will reap some rewards for him in the end.

This. Everything you say here, this is an important post. the bolded is exactly what I don't want my dd to think, like, "oh, well, you got a 99%. Obviously."

[Storygirl]

Quill, I'm guessing you may be doing better at handling this difference in your kids than you think, merely because you are aware of the issues and you desire to do the right thing. I understand the things in my parents' lives that made them the kind of parents that they were (kind of -- I can see it, but it still hurts that they didn't do better). Considering your children's feelings and the impact that your words and actions can have on them will help you. My parents didn't try to connect with us. They have never once told me that they are proud of me or congratulated me on success. I could share some painful stories, but I won't. And the truth is that they are completely unaware of the impact that this has had on my life. They just don't consider how I feel about things. They are not terrible people. They just did not make building a relationship with their children important. Giving us guidelines, correcting misbehavior, letting us know their expectations -- yes. Offering love and compassion and understanding and praise -- not so much.

 

Because I grew up in that household, I find that I naturally tend toward giving more guidance than affection, and more criticism than praise to my own children. I have to work at doing better. Your story is probably completely different than mine. I don't want to suggest that you have the same struggles that I do. But I do think that building a relationship with my kids has to be a primary focus of my parenting. I want to be deliberate about that.

 

 

[Storygirl]

Quill, what about making a habit of playing Roses and Thorns with your family? In case you don't know how it goes -- each person takes a turn and names one rose (something good about their day) and one thorn (something not great about their day).

 

I'm thinking this might make a difference in your family dynamics, because it evens things out. No one ends up with all the positive news, and no one ends up with all the negative. And the roses and thorns can be anything, so your family gets to cheer successes whether they are about school or not, and commiserate with each others' difficulties, not matter what they may be. It allows everyone to feel grateful about something, and it encourages everyone to develop empathy for the struggles of others. And everyone gets to choose what they share about themselves, whether it is something lighthearted or serious.

 

My kids love playing this game, but they are younger. If you have not been in the habit of doing something like this, teens might be a bit resistant or roll their eyes at first, but maybe sticking with it could be beneficial over time. And it only takes a couple of minutes to play.