Those of you who were impacted by the big Circe thread of 2012 check in here

[ScoutTN]

I only discovered that thread a short while ago and am just beginning to figure out how these ideas work out in my homeschool. Here are my thoughts so far:

 

Generally, these ideas help me to keep the big picture in mind. Truth, goodness and beauty are not extras, they are what education is all about. This helps me when I become fear-driven or worried about "getting it all done." I will not let a checklist control the atmosphere in our homeschool.

 

I have been confirmed in our study of Latin and in the central place of classic literature in our homeschool and our family life in general. We read and discuss and and make connections every day. Also confirmed in the importance of time in nature, outside play and imaginative play generally.

 

I have been encouraged in my own identity as a student and challenged with books, lectures and ideas which keep me learning. I do wish I had some irl friends with whom to talk about these things! Wish y'all could come over and have a glass of wine, sit on my deck (or by the fire as this spring has been so far!) and teach me! I know many, many adults who are too busy and tired to really think deeply or carefully about anything weighty and some who just choose not to (They would rather just be entertained.) and I do not want to become like that.

 

I thought of a couple other things, but am too sleepy to remember them now. :)

[ElizaG]

I bought 2 of the Peter volumes, but some parts of it really bug me. And sometimes I find the narrative approach to be disturbing, but I can't quite put my finger on why -- but I felt Ray Raphael's Founding Myths was the closest thing I'd read that articulated my discomfort...the idea that there is a tidy little narrative that wraps things up, which overlooks the fact that by its very nature a narrative is written after the fact, and the act of creating a story about something is in itself usually a misrepresentation of the complexity of most events.

 

I have mixed feelings about narratives myself, but they never come across as "tidy" around here, because the ones we use tend to come from different perspectives -- older/newer, Catholic/secular, US/Canadian/British.   At best, they're a relatively enjoyable way to introduce some of the basic events and characters.  But I have a low tolerance for the ones that come across to me as condescending (such as Gombrich) or sensationalized (such as H. E. Marshall).  It's quite possible that I would have got annoyed with the Peter books, too, if I'd read very far.   (Who, me?  Touchy and opinionated? :laugh: )

 

Something I did find is that learning about history got me more interested in studying genealogy, and then the genealogy got me more interested in studying history.  So maybe that would count as a fourth option for history: starting with our own ancestors as far back as we can trace, and then branching out to look at the events and circumstances of the time.   If nothing else, it's a very interesting and child-appropriate way to introduce primary sources.   And hands-on, if you have photos, letters, mementos, and so on.

 

That reminds me of a fifth option I've been wanting to explore: local history.  Not just in a "who settled here when" way, but looking deeply into topics of interest, using all the resources in our community (people, places, books, maps, material objects).  Sure, it's not "classical" in any traditional way, but for that matter, neither is the four-year history cycle.   There seems to be plenty of scope for finding truth, goodness, and beauty, as they're embodied in our own context.   And I'm all for anything that gets us outside the house.  :001_smile:

[EndOfOrdinary]

So I have apparently been living under a rock, or in a cave, or something and did not know of Circe or Kern. That has been remedied. I am only one hour long lecture in, and like, Whoa! Dude is droppin' some knowledge. Anyway, he reminds me a lot of the speech Claiming an Education by Adrienne Rich. Now, her's is very female centered because that was the time period and the speech was to a female college, but if you generalize the gender it seems many sentiments are similar. Is this going in the right direction or did he totally leave me in the metaphorical dust?

[Mommyfaithe]

I had a bout of school in a box right after the Circe thread. Due to family circumstances, we needed a get it done approach. Biggest waste of time ever!!!! My panic led me to order enough workbooks for several families knowing in the depths if my heart that my kids could never just produce finished pages without the benefit of learning anything. Long story short....lesson learned. We do use historical fiction because we like it, but it is not the backbone of our historical studies, but more like a little ice cream with our cake :-)

 

Our homeschool tends to look like life happening. Kids don't always know what is on th roster, or whether or not what I put in front of them is part of a curriculum or something I just found to share. I like to keep them guessing.

 

One caveat before throwing all caution to the wind....don't neglect skill subjects! Even if they are taught in context....and reading/grammar/vocabulary/ handwriting/ writing etc. are easy to incorporate into a good piece of literature,....math, not so much....you must make sure the tools of learning and thinking are in place. A building without a strong foundation does not stand long. It is all well and fine to study the ants outside, or Alice in Wonderland inside, but neglecting the messy partin order to do the more beautiful part can come back to bite you in the nether regions....just a heads up!

[Joyofsixreboot]

I will have to go back and read everyone's follow up. The Circe thread spoke to me BUT my kids like historical fiction. I swear every "classic" we've tried has flopped. Especially with dd 10. I still read them to the kids but they get more excited about other lit. What has worked is considering all their love of acting, drawing, dancing and piano as " school" and not just fluffy extras. It was not the effect I expected but that in itself is a learning experience.

[blueskies14]

I  was JUST reading and re-reading that thread this week. I think this is where I am aiming, but I get unsure of myself and feel like I ought to be doing what this, that or the other reccommends. (I would do this anyway, but still.)

 

I don't really have anything to add, but I'm grateful to everyone who contributed their thoughts and experiences. Looking forward to pursuing our interests and reading lots of good books this year.

 

For beginning readers of good quality, I have the first of the CLP nature readers and that has worked well for us. I'm on my second reader with it now, and am reminded of how much I like it. Link to the series here. http://www.shopchristianliberty.com/christian-liberty-nature-reader-complete-set/ I think I purchased ours from rainbow resource. Memoria press year one and two also has good suggestions. (i.e. Little bear)

[SilverMoon]

On 3/28/2014 at 12:57 PM, jaderbee said:

I'm interested in what you all would recommend for readers. My K'er has finished the Flyleaf Press books we own an checks out the easy readers from the library. I wouldn't describe those as beautiful or virtuous. What would be appropriate assigned reading that evokes, beauty, truth, virtue, etc? Beatrix Potter? Anything else?

.

Edited July 10, 2022 by SilverMoon

[SilverMoon]

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Edited July 10, 2022 by SilverMoon

[texasmama]

There was a Classical Academic Press vid that they put up recently with 5th graders (I think?) talking about LoTR like they were high school students-absolutley incredible to watch. Here's the link. it should go right through. It's called The Liturgical Classroom and Virtue Formation. 

 

I loved this so much, and although the talk was directed towards classroom teachers, I picked up some gems about liturgy to incorporate in our school days.  Just beautiful.

[PollyOR]

There was a Classical Academic Press vid that they put up recently with 5th graders (I think?) talking about LoTR like they were high school students-absolutley incredible to watch. Here's the link. it should go right through. It's called The Liturgical Classroom and Virtue Formation. 

 

Thank you for sharing this video. :)

[TracyP]

I have to add another thanks for the video, justamouse. I'm glad so many liked it. I don't usually take the time to watch these kinds of videos, but I'm glad I did this time. That was wonderful!

[Amy Jo]

The Circe thread started a chain reaction on my view of education, culture and life. I floundered a bit, considered MP (but there were too many workbooks), and then ended up using Ambleside Online. We really love it. I don't stress about the free reads though - I prioritize them so we work on the literature, but, especially with my slower reader, we do what we can because I don't want his life to be nothing but reading. My second prefers non-fiction, so I let him skip the 'lessor' free reads. The Circe thread and related podcasts showed me the importance of DOING things. Not just reading. So we get dirty, messy - we cook, work with animals, travel, play games, etc.

 

I've stopped trying to plan the kids' entire 12 years of school, because I don't know what tomorrow holds. So I work on truth, goodness & beauty. I also look for programs that BOTH let the child "play with the puppies" (Kern had a post on this - love it) AND lead to mastery. This is why I am sticking with MEP for math, even though I have a love/hate relationship with it! It's also why I like copywork (Briem's Alice and Wonderland pages are great & free) and dictation (seems to be working for my eldest). We are using Visual Latin (play with puppies) and Henle (slowly for mastery).

 

But the biggest one is trying to teach from a place of rest. Because if I manage that state of mind, everything is better.

 

Justamouse, can you explain (with examples!) your comments on grammar? What does deconstructive grammar look like? What do you like about Serl's grammar? I've been wrestling with questions about grammar lately and would love to hear your thoughts.

[justamouse]

 

Justamouse, can you explain (with examples!) your comments on grammar? What does deconstructive grammar look like? What do you like about Serl's grammar? I've been wrestling with questions about grammar lately and would love to hear your thoughts.

I love Serl's concept of grammar teaching because it is about the whole of the language, not the puppy parts. :D 

 

There's poetry study, dictation, and picture study, all very CM. But then there's subject verb agreement in there, punctuation, there are jumping off points to writing, which are brilliant. ILL, lesson 91. Definition of an autobiography, and write your own autobiography following *this outline*. When they give the outlines from which to write by, it is the practical teaching of how to write. What paragraph follows what paragraph. So the child learns the natural order of writing without the whole concept being deconstructed into an explanation of what the paragraphs are, why you need them, how you build them, then add them all together to make a paper. 

 

When they give a composition prompt, it's given in precise orders so that the child learns naturally how to put the composition together. 

 

It guides conversations as to how to order, say, about a squirrel. Guiding the child from the whole of the squirrel, through its physical traits, then finally to its habits. 

 

It is extremely classical, dealing with old fables, Greek myths, and good poems. 

 

When the kids are done, they will know what the parts of speech are, without having filled out pages and circled the words. Lesson 203 IE is compound subject and predicate, and the student will take the prompts and write whole sentences. 205 is transposed order, and it has the student correct the sentences. 

It's not breaking down -deconstruction--it's building up. 

[SwallowTail]

 

I have such a hard time judging though.  HOW do I ensure that some day, my children say, "Yeah, Harry Potter was a fun read, but it's no NARNIA!"

 

LoL, I love both, but honestly, Narnia is no Harry Potter. :P

[momto2Cs]

Momto2Cs here has a great breakdown of books and influences to Narnia on her blog (http://fromtherootsup.blogspot.com/search/label/Narnia). Your leading up to years have a lot of them!

 

Aw shucks... thanks!  :blush:

 

What I took away from that thread was the notion of letting go. I let go of matching up historical fiction to each time period... in fact, I let go of the idea that we had to stick to the time period we were "studying". I decided to choose books that I felt were truly worthwhile, and that we would enjoy now, even if they didn't "match up". I chose instead to base much of what we read and discuss and do around really good books instead, such as the Narnia study referenced above, or the Hobbit/Lord of the Rings study I am putting together now, and that we are already enjoying (currently reading books that influenced Tolkien's work).

 

I also incorporated a few more Waldorf-style elements into our day--more art, more practical skills (knitting, bread baking), because I appreciate Steiner's thoughts on educating the whole child (although I am not a big proponent of all of Steiner's theories!)

 

Like Amy Jo, I have stopped trying to plan far ahead. I plan for the here and now, one year at a time. Yes, we plan on homeschooling through high school. We are in this for the long haul. But exactly what that will look like as we go is unknown. I also look to simplify now in some areas while deepening others. One solid math program rather than several combined like patchwork. One history spine. But then, more of a Brave Writer approach to writing, with various programs as a toolbox. More than one resource for science, because my children love science. Instead of following any specific curriculum path that is laid out for me, and that requires us to use or do this and that, I find ways to build a curriculum that suits our family, our goals.

[marge]

I am reading the thread for the first time today (thank you so much for linking to it), and I can see that I have a lot of reading/listening to do. Something that whacked me over the head immediately, though, was this quote from urpedonmommy:

 

 

I was discussing this again with my dh (dear man is so patient) and he said, "You know, in business management, something we learned is that removing obstacles to get where you want to go is more productive than making sweeping changes." I had a little light bulb moment. I am overwhelmed at the...hugeness, the impossibility of "packaging" the Good the True and the Beautiful into something I can tackle on Monday. Maybe I should start by looking at what I am doing already and seeing what is NOT the Good, True, Beautiful and eliminating those things first. Making more room for the the best things to enter our lives.

 

Yes. Just yes. We recently rid ourselves of satellite television and have been de-cluttering our home, and it is making a HUGE difference. It is so easy to be overwhelmed by distractions and "stuff" and things that aren't important or good that we don't even have room for the good. Or it gets lost amongst the junk.

 

I can't wait to devour all the resources posted in both this thread and the original!

[KeriJ]

I love Serl's concept of grammar teaching because it is about the whole of the language, not the puppy parts. :D 

 

There's poetry study, dictation, and picture study, all very CM. But then there's subject verb agreement in there, punctuation, there are jumping off points to writing, which are brilliant. ILL, lesson 91. Definition of an autobiography, and write your own autobiography following *this outline*. When they give the outlines from which to write by, it is the practical teaching of how to write. What paragraph follows what paragraph. So the child learns the natural order of writing without the whole concept being deconstructed into an explanation of what the paragraphs are, why you need them, how you build them, then add them all together to make a paper. 

 

When they give a composition prompt, it's given in precise orders so that the child learns naturally how to put the composition together. 

 

It guides conversations as to how to order, say, about a squirrel. Guiding the child from the whole of the squirrel, through its physical traits, then finally to its habits. 

 

It is extremely classical, dealing with old fables, Greek myths, and good poems. 

 

When the kids are done, they will know what the parts of speech are, without having filled out pages and circled the words. Lesson 203 IE is compound subject and predicate, and the student will take the prompts and write whole sentences. 205 is transposed order, and it has the student correct the sentences. 

It's not breaking down -deconstruction--it's building up. 

 

This was such a helpful explanation.  I've always considered ILL, but couldn't get a good feel for it.  Now I might...just might...be tempted to switch. :)

[Chrysalis Academy]

This was such a helpful explanation.  I've always considered ILL, but couldn't get a good feel for it.  Now I might...just might...be tempted to switch. :)

 

Dang, I'm totally tempted too!  I wanna workbook, though.

[KeriJ]

Dang, I'm totally tempted too!  I wanna workbook, though.

 

http://www.intermediatelanguagelessons.com/

 

:)

[Chrysalis Academy]

http://www.intermediatelanguagelessons.com/

 

:)

 

:cheers2:

[EndOfOrdinary]

Simplicity Parenting by Kim John Payne.  I was not a band wagon jumper when everyone around me was just raving about this book.  I scoffed.  Then years later I read it.  Whoa.  Totally worth a read.  Within 2 weeks I saw a difference in my son and our homeschooling.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Simplicity-Parenting-Extraordinary-Calmer-Happier-ebook/dp/B002LLRDS8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396293267&sr=8-1&keywords=simplicity+parenting

 

I am reading the thread for the first time today (thank you so much for linking to it), and I can see that I have a lot of reading/listening to do. Something that whacked me over the head immediately, though, was this quote from urpedonmommy:

 

 

Yes. Just yes. We recently rid ourselves of satellite television and have been de-cluttering our home, and it is making a HUGE difference. It is so easy to be overwhelmed by distractions and "stuff" and things that aren't important or good that we don't even have room for the good. Or it gets lost amongst the junk.

 

I can't wait to devour all the resources posted in both this thread and the original!

 

[momto2Cs]

Simplicity Parenting by Kim John Payne.  I was not a band wagon jumper when everyone around me was just raving about this book.  I scoffed.  Then years later I read it.  Whoa.  Totally worth a read.  Within 2 weeks I saw a difference in my son and our homeschooling.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Simplicity-Parenting-Extraordinary-Calmer-Happier-ebook/dp/B002LLRDS8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396293267&sr=8-1&keywords=simplicity+parenting

 

Thanks for the book recommendation! I've been reading Living Simply With Children, and have been really enjoying the ideas presented. This gives me more to look forward to!

 

[justamouse]

Dang, I'm totally tempted too!  I wanna workbook, though.

 

Nevermind, Keri got them! 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

LoL, I love both, but honestly, Narnia is no Harry Potter. :p

 

Next time just stick a dagger through my heart.  It will cause me less pain.  :nopity:

 

 

 

I just watched the video finally!  Great video!  It makes me wonder how we can offer some of what she talked about in a one-on-one or very small group teaching environment.  If I could send my kids to a school where the fifth graders were digesting LOTR like hers are, I would send them, because I think the educational experience would be superior to what I can give.  But there is no school like that where I am. 

 

Certainly the gather-digest-create method can be applied at home, probably much better than in an "average" classroom.  Harder to duplicate are the experiential learning opportunities that the right group could provide.  Something for me to think on...

[justamouse]

Next time just stick a dagger through my heart.  It will cause me less pain.  :nopity:

 

 

 

I just watched the video finally!  Great video!  It makes me wonder how we can offer some of what she talked about in a one-on-one or very small group teaching environment.  If I could send my kids to a school where the fifth graders were digesting LOTR like hers are, I would send them, because I think the educational experience would be superior to what I can give.  But there is no school like that where I am. 

 

Certainly the gather-digest-create method can be applied at home, probably much better than in an "average" classroom.  Harder to duplicate are the experiential learning opportunities that the right group could provide.  Something for me to think on...

I was thinking the exact same things. If you think of anything, post it! 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

That was my question. How do we encourage honey making at home when there aren't several other kids capable of reading/discussing a book/producing a play... After thinking about it over the weekend, I think the discussion on senses and the breakfast are clues to implementing the lectio divina in the home. Instead of a narration, worksheet, interrogation by mom, etc ;) pick something that stimulates one of the 5 senses related to the book or selection of the book.

ETA- just so I can complete a thought before it gets jumbled in the diaper changing, "Yes! It's nap time," mele that will hit here in a minute: The act of planning a meal, drawing a picture, creating a hobbit hole, listening to an Appalachian ditty will ignite the meditatio phase and perhaps result in the contemplatio (the gal in the video used a different term...).

 

I think the first two stages of honey making are easy enough to implement at home.  When she had her girls reading Confessions in pairs, that could have been done independently with the occasional brainstorming session with mom or dad.  Learning to read something deeply and annotate it is something that doesn't need to happen in group. 

 

What concerns me more is finding a group of youngsters who are willing to take a subject seriously and discuss it like intelligent human beings.  I don't see this happening in my local home school co-op.  It is a problem not only of education style (zero classical ed'rs in group besides us) but also of self-discipline, which the majority of the kids don't seem to have learned as a habit.  You really need both- one for the knowledge depth necessary, and one for the level of seriousness necessary to make these things (play productions, prepared debates, etc.) work.   

 

It makes me really question certain things- is it important that a peer group be of similar age (going through similar things, similar life experience, etc.), or is it important simply that they are intellectually "peers" in the sense that they are pursuing deeper knowledge on the same topic (say, Tolkien) regardless of age? 

 

And so we come back to the nuclear family as being the provider of not only the teaching, but also the "peer group" to pull off some of these experiences. 

 

I can see, when ALL of my kids have reached the age of reason (I hope...), how we could put on a small production, or have a hobbit-style "elevensies" with quotes and toasts, or go find two roads diverging in a yellow wood and pause to read the poem before choosing the one less traveled...  but for smaller families, this would be even harder. 

 

What I need to do is see if DH would like to participate in essentially forming a family-based literary society.  Moving to a family read-aloud time after dinner, rather than our current routine of splitting and reading to each child separately.  But I always hesitate to blur the line between parent and companion, if you know what I mean?  I've never been much for being my child's "friend," so it would be interesting to find a dynamic where such a "club" would work. 

 

But I like very much the idea of "One should make one's own entertainment"- that is, rather than watching TV or listening to music on CD, why not read aloud, play act, or perform a musical piece or sing for other family members?  I am having a mental blank on who gave me this idea... I think it is one of the practical applications of the distributism economic philosophy...  Briefly, another way of being a localist- consume locally produced entertainment, even that which is produced in your own living room!  It also brings to mind the literary society in Little Town on the Prairie. 

 

I feel like I am meandering far and wide from my starting point... sorry! 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Oh!  Another example of a family literary society is The Pickwick Portfolio of Little Women. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

(Gee, am I still talking...sorry)

 

I was brushing my teeth and thought of something else in the video worth discussing:  The difference between the contents of the lesson and the "packaging" of the lesson. 

 

As homeschooling families, we do have a pretty unique advantage in being able to package our lessons in a beautiful, sensual (as in stimulating the senses) package.  I think this is part of why many of the so-called "Bravewriter lifestyle" practices are appealing.  Poetry is all well and good, but it's soooo much better if it is a liturgical event, occurring on a certain day, with a certain ritual of tea and scones or whatever a family chooses.  The idea of ritual and rhythm in the home is very important.  We know children respond better to predictability, being able to "look forward to" certain things at a certain time each week, etc.  I feel like this is a really key element to education, and we have the advantage over classrooms for it, though it requires a lot of self-discipline on mom's part! 

 

Anyway, let's also talk more about the packaging of lessons and how to bring beauty into school time!

[justamouse]

I was thinking today though, that the highest order of Bloom's Taxonomy is creating, and, instead of honey making, if we looked at that as creating, what could they create form the experience. It does't have to be discussion. And how that creation plays out in each family is so very individual. 

Today I had a kid writing poetry, and another writing songs. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I was thinking today though, that the highest order of Bloom's Taxonomy is creating, and, instead of honey making, if we looked at that as creating, what could they create form the experience. It does't have to be discussion. And how that creation plays out in each family is so very individual. 

 

Today I had a kid writing poetry, and another writing songs. 

 

Yes, and her journaling idea of:

 

- reflect on something important that was experienced/learned

-relate it to another experience in the past

- Create something that synthesizes the two- drawing, poetry, prose, a question to ponder

 

This is all directly applicable in the homeschool. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Ok, I have to go to bed.  Stupid time difference!  I can't wait to see the discussion tomorrow morning. 

[scrapbabe]

Simplicity Parenting by Kim John Payne.  I was not a band wagon jumper when everyone around me was just raving about this book.  I scoffed.  Then years later I read it.  Whoa.  Totally worth a read.  Within 2 weeks I saw a difference in my son and our homeschooling.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Simplicity-Parenting-Extraordinary-Calmer-Happier-ebook/dp/B002LLRDS8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396293267&sr=8-1&keywords=simplicity+parenting

I didn't read it for the same reason.  I guess I'll have to look at it again. ;)

[scrapbabe]

Ok, I have to go to bed.  Stupid time difference!  I can't wait to see the discussion tomorrow morning. 

NOOOO!  Don't go to sleep!  You're on a roll!!!  I'm totally loving your train of thought.  :drool5:

[marge]

Simplicity Parenting by Kim John Payne.  I was not a band wagon jumper when everyone around me was just raving about this book.  I scoffed.  Then years later I read it.  Whoa.  Totally worth a read.  Within 2 weeks I saw a difference in my son and our homeschooling.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Simplicity-Parenting-Extraordinary-Calmer-Happier-ebook/dp/B002LLRDS8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396293267&sr=8-1&keywords=simplicity+parenting

 

This has been on my Amazon Wishlist for a while...downloaded it to my Kindle this afternoon and will dive in. Thank you!

[ariasmommy]

Just wanted to say that I too liked Jenny Rallen's video, but felt discouraged thinking that my kids couldn't do the discussions and plays like those kids. But you all are helping me see what can be done. Thank you!

[SarahW]

Watched the video today – twice. Just now I watched it with DH as our evening TV special (we often make up our own when nothing's on). DH was likewise impressed with the 5^th graders discussing LOTR. He regularly teaches adult Bible Study and tries to impart a basic understanding of lectio divina (the old “teach a man to fish†reason), but so many of the adults can't or won't make the application. I explained that the 5^th graders have two things going for them – 1) they have already completed four years of reading literature in a classical school and 2) they are in 5^th grade and are not yet wedded to their own apathy.  :tongue_smilie:

 

But seriously, he wants to know, how does one get to the point the 5^th graders are at?

 

Similarly, have you all seen this response to the video?

 

 

This was certainly a worthy topic for presentation; however, I am concerned that viewers will step away from this lecture with a simplified understanding of a classical methodology that could be almost as dangerous to the students as the traditional “worksheet†drill which was shown to be inadequate. 1, The lecture used primarily traditional teaching techniques to “teach†a methodology with which most viewers are only nominally familiar. 2. The lecture emphasized the final steps in the students education process in which they were able to synthesize and evaluate the material (Lord of the Rings/ confessions). 3. The presentation omitted the steps (modeling) which the instructor must have taken to ensure that the students took the time to read the material (in class?), learned the types of questions which were most appropriate for analysis, learned the proper manner in which to respond to other students questions and comments and learned how to back up analysis of the material with quotations and/or events from the source material.

I am confident based on the sampling of classroom results shared during the presentation that Ms. Rallens did in fact model/demonstrate and teach these important skills to her students. I suspect that they were taught over the course of time by the manner in which she facilitated the student discussions. Unfortunately, I do not feel that this presentation/lecture made the entire methodology available for the educators who might be watching this video.

Unfortunately, I have witnessed to many “classical†educators encouraging students to discuss material that has not been read or “act out†material which is not understood. I have also witnessed teachers either allowing students to make unfounded comments about literature or history without challenging the basis of the discussion points, or stopping student discussion to pontificate upon a point about which the teacher feels strongly.

The follow on to this lecture, should be a demonstration of how students can be best taught/encouraged to read the material, guided in their analysis of the material, trained in their ability to discuss the material logically, politely and using sound evidence from the original source, and finally led to the final product in which students can synthesize their own experiences, the shared experiences of others, and the source material into a dramatic production or special event. Too often, well intentioned educators “jump†to the “fun†product without guiding the students through the steps which will prepare them for this final project/presentation. When challenged as to how to prepare the students, many teachers are lost if they cannot use the worksheet method by which they themselves were taught.

I know it is difficult in a short period of time to “use the method†in order to “teach the method,†but this is the only way any educator can really understand what he or she needs to do.

 

 

This comment seems to be more about “how to teach†while the video seemed to have “what is teaching virtue?†as its topic instead. So I am not sure this is a completely valid critique. However, it does ask something that I want to know. In college “Discussion†classes were very vogue, but they usually seemed worthless to me. When there wasn't just complete silence, the discussion was usually completely superficial. So I agree with this comment that there need to be a there there first. So first, how do you get to the there, and then do the there?

 

Now, obviously, my kid is in 1^st (and the other one is still drooling) so tonight I just explained to my DH that there is a reason why I'm getting so naggy about how much screen time he allows CP. Even so, I'm not sure he sees the connection. He needs everything explicitly clear from the mouth of an authority (because I apparently make thing up in my arse?? :001_rolleyes: ).

 

Can anyone think of another good video that shows the ante-pedagogy for this one?

 

PS – I finally figured out what these people mean by “virtueâ€! Maybe I'm just slow, but when I saw that term being discussed before my response was “Um, yeah, I parent?†Likewise, I'm just finishing up Who Killed Homer? and I was also confused when they complained that Classics professors don't live the life they teach. Um, do they really expect them to go live the “philosophic lifeâ€? Clearly, I take these things too literally.  :laugh:

[justamouse]

While I'm not totally apathetic to that comment, I kind of  am. Why? Because I've been modeling this to my children since they were born. I don't know how NOT to teach that way. And, if they don't know how to teach them that way, I don't know how to show them except by telling them to READREADREAD. 

You can't TEACH connections you haven't made yourself. You can't illuminate anything that hasn't been illuminated for you. You can't teach what you don't have. 

Otherwise you might as well read cliff notes together and fill out a form. 

It's not about your comment, Sarah, just so you understand. 

Jenny has lived this education herself, she has become it, which is why she can teach that way. 


 

[8filltheheart]

While I'm not totally apathetic to that comment, I kind of am. Why? Because I've been modeling this to my children since they were born. I don't know how NOT to teach that way. And, if they don't know how to teach them that way, I don't know how to show them except by telling them to READREADREAD.

 

You can't TEACH connections you haven't made yourself. You can't illuminate anything that hasn't been illuminated for you. You can't teach what you don't have.

 

Otherwise you might as well read cliff notes together and fill out a form.

 

Which must prove I am a good teacher bc now my older kids make more and better connections than I can! It really is embarrassing a lot of times bc they correct me! Obviously *I* was NOT educated this way. Those who can do and those who can't teach and all of that! They'll be do-ers. :)

[Alte Veste Academy]

I would just like to say that I am already feeling the impact of this thread more than I felt any impact from the Circe thread. Maybe it is just hitting me at the right time two years later. I am all ears if anyone has any books recommendations for learning more about how to teach for "honey making," and I have a birthday coming up! :D

[8filltheheart]

I would just like to say that I am already feeling the impact of this thread more than I felt any impact from the Circe thread. Maybe it is just hitting me at the right time two years later. I am all ears if anyone has any books recommendations for learning more about how to teach for "honey making," and I have a birthday coming up! :D

Maybe Poetic Knowledge? I don't know anything about this link, I just google POetic knowledge and it was one that come up with summaries. I am intrigued by it now, though, so I think I will be doing some reading. Anyway, the link will definitely shed light on whether or not it is at what you are interested in.

 

http://www.simplyconvivial.com/2012/poetic-knowledge-book-club-series

[ElizaG]

I haven't watched the video, so these might not be relevant, but I'm posting them anyway as they have some worthwhile things to say about teaching in general.  :001_smile:

 

The Art of Teaching by Gilbert Highet

 

"The Eminence of Teaching" by Etienne Gilson (a transcript of a lecture that was given at a Catholic college, so it has some religious references)

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Similarly, have you all seen this response to the video?

 

 

I think it is important to realize that the featured LOTR debate did not spring up out of the ground from nothing, but I don't believe the critique is justified, as I don't think the "How to teach children to do a prepared debate" was in the scope of her speech.  We know she was talking to an audience of other educators, and I assume they were all classical educators, though I have not googled the Alcum group. 

 

In the same way, we can't say, "but wait, she didn't talk at all about how to cast 5th graders for the play, or how to organize a practice schedule!"- not part of the scope of her talk! 

 

I was struck by the following things during the debate scene:

 

- The children all knew what the two arguments were, and had either been assigned a "side" or been allowed to choose one.  So here I see at least one teacher-led classroom discussion over the question (which, by the way, I did not understand- Was Sam responsible for Gollum's not being redeemed?  What?  So clearly I needed that background talk in class!) and at least one assignment on finding direct quotes to support one's position.  (We can trace that skill all the way back to copywork, memoization, narration!  In addition to learning to read with a pencil in the hand for margin marking!)

 

- The children all knew how to segue, referring back to previous statements in the debate in order to refute them directly.  This is a learned skill.  Most of us just want to blurt out our opinion.  It takes practice to keep a conversation relevant to what is being said in the moment, rather than immediately changing subject to what we'd like to talk about.  It also shows the children have gained an understanding of mutual respect, and also the incredibly important ability to separate one's self from one's words/opinion.  No one burst into tears at being contradicted and therefore being made to feel "dumb".  The refutations were all made with direct quotes and notes from the book.  Even when the little girl misspoke and said "Adam and Eve were tempted by the ring" and everyone laughed, she showed incredible grace at being able to laugh at herself and the class showed excellent self-discipline at getting back to task immediately. 

 

- The debaters did no interrupt.  Again, a learned skill and a sign of showing respect. 

 

So I think the purpose of this clip in the lecture was not to show how virtue was taught through prepared debate (though certainly it is an excellent practice and testing ground), but rather that this clip shows the culmination of virtue having been taught previously, and now put into action. 

 

It was, not to get all CMish on you, a "living example" used to illustrate what no amount of verbiage could have done on what "virtue in education" *looks like*. 

[ladydusk]

Aw shucks... thanks! :blush:

 

.

No no! Thank You!!! We're currently reading Prince Caspian and loving all the things we've read to this point. It's a great list. (We all ... Including my dh who worked from home a lot this winter ... enjoyed When the Sirens Wailed)

 

You did all the hard work and I'm very thankful!

[Soror]

I would just like to say that I am already feeling the impact of this thread more than I felt any impact from the Circe thread. Maybe it is just hitting me at the right time two years later. I am all ears if anyone has any books recommendations for learning more about how to teach for "honey making," and I have a birthday coming up! :D

Well, I would say I was affected by the Circe thread but I feel I'm at a better place now to be able to put more change into effect. My oldest is also getting to an age where he is able to delve deeper and understand more and I'm so excited to see what we can learn together. I'm hoping that I can give him a better education than I've received and like 8 I can see that he will likely surpass me.

[justamouse]

I haven't watched the video, so these might not be relevant, but I'm posting them anyway as they have some worthwhile things to say about teaching in general.  :001_smile:

 

The Art of Teaching by Gilbert Highet

 

"The Eminence of Teaching" by Etienne Gilson (a transcript of a lecture that was given at a Catholic college, so it has some religious references)

 

The Art of Teaching is *amazing*. 

 

 

I would just like to say that I am already feeling the impact of this thread more than I felt any impact from the Circe thread. Maybe it is just hitting me at the right time two years later. I am all ears if anyone has any books recommendations for learning more about how to teach for "honey making," and I have a birthday coming up! :D

I most recently read Beauty in the Word by Stratford Caldecott and I *really* liked it. I thought it was much more practical yet theory was still there. It's not crazy expensive, either. 

 

 

It was, not to get all CMish on you, a "living example" used to illustrate what no amount of verbiage could have done on what "virtue in education" *looks like*. 

:iagree:  :iagree: 

 

 

 

I thought I quoted you, too, 8. :D You might not have had that education but you were a fearless reader, and that's what's made the difference. 

 

A lot of times overwhelmed moms want this for their kids but they want to hand the kids a book, and workbook pages and call it done. What you share about your children's education would never happen with a book and workbook pages. You may not think you led the way, but you did. It might have been a small portion, but it was a foundation that your children built upon. Any parent who is willing to read and forge a path forward can do that for their child. 

[texasmama]

My take-away from the video Justamouse posted was that if you give children good literature and a few questions/guidelines and allow them to form their own opinion and "defend" it in a safe environment in which their viewpoint is accepted as valid (and just as valid as a teacher's viewpoint or as a literary guide's viewpoint), they will feel empowered to make connections and stretch that muscle of literary analysis.

 

My personal bias is that there is not one correct interpretation of any literary work.  I believe that one measure of a truly great work of literature is that it speaks to different people in different ways and resists formulaic categorization.  (I'm sure that this is not a revolutionary idea, but it does go against much of the mainstream lit analysis done in your typical classroom, I think.)

 

I'm finding that the kids in my literary analysis class in co op come up with amazing and interesting viewpoints given free reign to do so.  I am even more loosely structured than the video of the 5th graders discussion LoTR appears to be.  Young children are capable of great insight, I have found in my years of doing therapy with them.  They just are not often given an audience to express them.

 

(I am at the very beginning of doing all of the above so I hesitated even to post, but everyone has to start somewhere, right?)

[LostintheCosmos]

This comment seems to be more about “how to teach†while the video seemed to have “what is teaching virtue?†as its topic instead. So I am not sure this is a completely valid critique. However, it does ask something that I want to know. In college “Discussion†classes were very vogue, but they usually seemed worthless to me. When there wasn't just complete silence, the discussion was usually completely superficial. So I agree with this comment that there need to be a there there first. So first, how do you get to the there, and then do the there?

 

I think this is a legitimate question, and I think the response that the good teacher embodies and models these things is true and necessary, but maybe not entirely sufficient. I feel like I've referred to Pieper's Guide to Thomas Aquinas in most of my posts here  :laugh: (in my defense, St. Thomas did actually have something to say about everything, and he was usually right  ;) ) but he had a, for me, really illuminating chapter on St. Thomas and teaching. 

 

"Teaching, says Thomas, is one of the highest manifestations of the life of the mind, for the reason that in teaching the vita contemplativa and the vita activa are joined--not just patched together superficially, not merely connected 'factually,' but united in a natural and necessary union. The true teacher has grasped a truth for itself, by purely receptive contemplation; he passes it on to others who likewise desire to partake of this truth. The teacher, then, looks to the truth of things; that is contemplative aspect of teaching. It is also the aspect of silence, without which the words of the teacher would be unoriginal in the primary meaning of that word, would be empty talk, gesture, chatter, if not fraud. But the teacher simultaneously looks into the faces of living human beings--and he subjects himself to the rigorously disciplined, wearisome labor of clarifying, of presenting, of communicating. Where communication does not take place, teaching does not take place."

 

My hunch is that many teachers are teachers precisely because the second part of this comes naturally to them; they "possess the art of approaching [their] subject from the point of view of the beginner; [they] are able to enter into the psychological situation of one encountering a subject for the first time." And because that comes naturally to them, they don't talk about it much! I'm always skeptical of teachers' own accounts of what makes their classrooms work - at the very least, they usually aren't that helpful to someone like me who could see herself doing almost anything else rather than teaching if it weren't for these ignorant children I seem to be responsible for.  :001_smile:

 

I feel like the first thing comes more naturally to me, except that I'm always trying to get the kids to be quiet and leave me alone, so mommy can contemplate something!  :laugh: So I have a knack for missing the point. I found Monica's post breaking out some of the skills and habits needed for a discussion like this quite helpful. And I actually thought the worksheets Rallens derided seemed like a reasonable preparatory step when meeting a text, though obviously you wouldn't want to stop there and there are probably more efficient means of accomplishing the same thing in the homeschool setting (narration?). At any rate, my advisor in college used similar text-based questions, some "merely" factual, some more interpretive, at the end of class to help us focus our attention on the right things in reading the assignment for the next class. 

 

Here's a practical question for the experienced moms that hopefully isn't too much of a highjack: how quickly do you move through texts in your homeschool? How does that vary by age? I inhaled books when I was young, and, with the exception of some college classes, the effect of my schooling was also to encourage reading more, faster. What, if anything, do you do to slow your kids down and read carefully and deeply? 

[LostintheCosmos]

"The Eminence of Teaching" by Etienne Gilson (a transcript of a lecture that was given at a Catholic college, so it has some religious references)

 

Popping back in to say I read this while getting the baby down for his nap and found it very helpful in clarifying some points of confusion for me - thank you for the link!

[Clear Creek]

 

"Teaching, says Thomas, is one of the highest manifestations of the life of the mind, for the reason that in teaching the vita contemplativa and the vita activa are joined--not just patched together superficially, not merely connected 'factually,' but united in a natural and necessary union. The true teacher has grasped a truth for itself, by purely receptive contemplation; he passes it on to others who likewise desire to partake of this truth. The teacher, then, looks to the truth of things; that is contemplative aspect of teaching. It is also the aspect of silence, without which the words of the teacher would be unoriginal in the primary meaning of that word, would be empty talk, gesture, chatter, if not fraud. But the teacher simultaneously looks into the faces of living human beings--and he subjects himself to the rigorously disciplined, wearisome labor of clarifying, of presenting, of communicating. Where communication does not take place, teaching does not take place."

 

 

LOVE the bolded!  That describes how learning happens in my house (down to the part about wearisome labor :tongue_smilie: ), and why almost every single subject I teach has an oral component to it...handwriting is probably the only exception.  I wondered for the longest time why my kids couldn't learn with self-teaching curriculum like CLE, if my kids were just strange or had some sort of impairment, before gave up and changed the way I taught to include a discussion for every single subject for each child.  For everything my kids learn, whether it is science, history, grammar, Latin...we compare it to what else we know, we try to come up with new ideas/thoughts/examples/uses for it, we practice identifying it in different situations...we discuss each subject to death.  Every. Single. Day.  Unless I don't want them to learn. :tongue_smilie:  I think the last sentence in the bolded is going to be my teaching motto.  I may have to embroider it on a throw pillow or stencil it on the wall.

 

 

 

Here's a practical question for the experienced moms that hopefully isn't too much of a highjack: how quickly do you move through texts in your homeschool? How does that vary by age? I inhaled books when I was young, and, with the exception of some college classes, the effect of my schooling was also to encourage reading more, faster. What, if anything, do you do to slow your kids down and read carefully and deeply? 

 

I assign a set amount to read, followed by a scheduled time for discussion.  I don't assign more reading than we can discuss at that time.  So while my oldest and her friend could read an entire book each day for literature, we only have 30 minutes a week to discuss what we read.  We can only discuss about four to six chapters (depending on the book) in 30 minutes, so I only assign that much reading each week.

 

[8filltheheart]

 

 

Here's a practical question for the experienced moms that hopefully isn't too much of a highjack: how quickly do you move through texts in your homeschool? How does that vary by age? I inhaled books when I was young, and, with the exception of some college classes, the effect of my schooling was also to encourage reading more, faster. What, if anything, do you do to slow your kids down and read carefully and deeply? 

 

I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for or not, but I read aloud even with my high schoolers.   This morning we read Markheim by Stevenson.    We are really "bad" about stopping and making commentary as we go along.   Today they jumped in and talked about how something reminded them of Telltale Heart or Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.   Not today particularly, but if someone likes a particular way something is phrased or throw out "did you catch that allusion to_____?"  

 

Reading is not just reading around here.   It is an experience.  :) 

 

FWIW, we don't use "texts" except for math in through middle school.   In high school we add in science texts and the occasional history text (dd is reading The Land of the Firebird right now and loves it.)  But a lot of the time history is a compilation of different books.   Other than pacing for science and math, our other subjects are not driven by pace but whatever we want to study.