What if you do not want an accelerated dc to graduate early?

[Chrysalis Academy]

This is my first post on the high school board, so be gentle with me! ;)

 

My dd is only 9, a rising 5th grader, but this question has been on my mind since we started homeschooling (last October): What is the best thing to do if you *don't* want your accelerated student to graduate "early"? Meaning, I would rather have her be 18 when she graduates high school & starts college, rather than starting college at 17.

 

We're in this situation because dd started K at 4 (she has a November birthday). She was id'd as gifted, although I would say she falls on the "very bright" side of the line, rather than the exceptional side. Thing is, she is developmentally accelerated, and always has been - walked early, talked early, lost teeth early, you name it. At 4 1/2 she Gessell tested at developmentally 5 1/2-6. So, she started K early, and has been advanced all along, and we pulled her at the beginning of 4th grade b/c she was really bored with school, and her teacher wasn't able to differentiate and meet her needs.

 

Homeschooling is perfect - she can work on material that she is ready for, and I really couldn't care less about the grade designation. I'd say she continues to work about a grade level ahead in many areas.

 

However, leaving academics aside, I am not interested in having her graduate & start college early. College is intense, and have the extra maturity and life experience will only help her navigate that, IMO. I would much rather have her start at 18 than 17.

 

So, if I want that, we have an "extra" year in here somewhere. I can think of two ways to deal: one is to go ahead and stay on the current track, graduate at 17, then take a gap year.

 

The second is to repeat a "grade" prior to high school, so that she ends up doing an extra year's worth of work, but we still only end up reporting the last 4 years of work on hs transcripts. I gather from what I have read on this board that this is preferable to "stretching out" high school, because colleges want to see the last 4 year's worth of work and be sure that a student can handle a full hs load.

 

What do people think of these options? Pros/cons of either?

 

I know you can't look into a crystal ball to see what a 9 yo will be like at 17, and maybe I'm overthinking something that may become moot later. But I want to plan things so that she has the full range of options open to her. I would like her to be able to apply to and be competitive at Ivy League colleges if that is what she chooses. I am also fine with her choosing a completely different path - but I want to have dotted all the i's and crossed the t's properly so that she *can* if she wants to. Does that make sense?

 

Anyway, thoughts or advice would be welcome. Thanks in advance!

[Mogster]

:bigear:

 

I am wondering the same thing! So glad you asked this!

[Jane in NC]

In all honesty, it is not unusual for high school students to earn college credits in high school through dual enrollment or AP. In fact, many of the top tier colleges expect applicants to be accelerated.

 

That said, I think all bets are off when our kids (particularly boys) are young teens. Their physical growth spurts seem to affect their mental processes. So don't be surprised if your daughter slows a bit.

 

And if she doesn't, hurrah! High school is a great time to explore passions. You can design all sorts of interesting courses or take advantage of travel opportunities.

 

There is no one path to success to high school or homeschool.

[frugalmama]

There is another option - go ahead and graduate her so she is ready for college admission, but work with her to only take online college classes or study for clep exams - i.e. homecollege. This way if she does choose to take online classes she is eligible for federal aid to cover the costs, but she still is at home.

 

Dd is on course to graduate at 16 if she doesn't accelerate any further. We plan to do the above for her two final years of HS and first several years of college.

[Barbara H]

Being beyond "grade level" is not a big deal by the high school years. There are many options: community college, APs, study abroad, intense volunteering, working with mentors, going more indepth in areas of interest, picking up more foreign languages, science fairs, etc. For sure if she's thinking about highly selective colleges the expectation will be that she's done far more than the minimum to finish a grade.

 

We've known homeschool grads to finish at different times - some earlier than typical, some later and it really has been a nonissue. I think you'll find this easily resolves itself when she's in high school.

[regentrude]

Have her work at her pace. Do not pay attention to "grade level", but choose the most appropriate materials. Keep her challenged. This will most likely include having her take college courses while in high school. Plan to go until 12th grade, and be prepared to change plans should things change. You do not have to decide now whether you want to graduate her early and do a gap year, or graduate her at 18 with more challenging coursework - the time to decide is prior to taking the PSAT in Junior year.

 

I have highly accelerated DC. DD took her first college class (physics the year she would have been in 8th grade. In the fall she is taking two four hour courses at a 4 year university, is very mature and wants to go away to college very badly because she needs academic peers, so she skipped a grade and will graduate at 17.

DS, OTOH, who is equally smart, took algebra in 6th grade etc, is not as mature and will be graduating at age 18. By that time he will have taken several college courses.

 

Things may change between now and then. Puberty may change things dramatically. I would not worry now, but just focus on choosing the most appropriate materials for your kids to challenge them at the right level.

[ereks mom]

Have her work at her pace. Do not pay attention to "grade level", but choose the most appropriate materials. Keep her challenged. This will most likely include having her take college courses while in high school. Plan to go until 12th grade, and be prepared to change plans should things change. You do not have to decide now whether you want to graduate her early and do a gap year, or graduate her at 18 with more challenging coursework - the time to decide is prior to taking the PSAT in Junior year.

 

...

 

Things may change between now and then. Puberty may change things dramatically. I would not worry now, but just focus on choosing the most appropriate materials for your kids to challenge them at the right level.

 

:iagree: :iagree:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This is my first post on the high school board, so be gentle with me! ;)

 

My dd is only 9, a rising 5th grader, but this question has been on my mind since we started homeschooling (last October): What is the best thing to do if you *don't* want your accelerated student to graduate "early"? Meaning, I would rather have her be 18 when she graduates high school & starts college, rather than starting college at 17.

 

We're in this situation because dd started K at 4 (she has a November birthday). She was id'd as gifted, although I would say she falls on the "very bright" side of the line, rather than the exceptional side. Thing is, she is developmentally accelerated, and always has been - walked early, talked early, lost teeth early, you name it. At 4 1/2 she Gessell tested at developmentally 5 1/2-6. So, she started K early, and has been advanced all along, and we pulled her at the beginning of 4th grade b/c she was really bored with school, and her teacher wasn't able to differentiate and meet her needs.

 

Homeschooling is perfect - she can work on material that she is ready for, and I really couldn't care less about the grade designation. I'd say she continues to work about a grade level ahead in many areas.

 

However, leaving academics aside, I am not interested in having her graduate & start college early. College is intense, and have the extra maturity and life experience will only help her navigate that, IMO. I would much rather have her start at 18 than 17.

 

So, if I want that, we have an "extra" year in here somewhere. I can think of two ways to deal: one is to go ahead and stay on the current track, graduate at 17, then take a gap year.

 

The second is to repeat a "grade" prior to high school, so that she ends up doing an extra year's worth of work, but we still only end up reporting the last 4 years of work on hs transcripts. I gather from what I have read on this board that this is preferable to "stretching out" high school, because colleges want to see the last 4 year's worth of work and be sure that a student can handle a full hs load.

 

What do people think of these options? Pros/cons of either?

 

I know you can't look into a crystal ball to see what a 9 yo will be like at 17, and maybe I'm overthinking something that may become moot later. But I want to plan things so that she has the full range of options open to her. I would like her to be able to apply to and be competitive at Ivy League colleges if that is what she chooses. I am also fine with her choosing a completely different path - but I want to have dotted all the i's and crossed the t's properly so that she *can* if she wants to. Does that make sense?

 

Anyway, thoughts or advice would be welcome. Thanks in advance!

 

I would suggest a third way is to just keep on with giving her good solid academics at the level she is on and decide much later down the road. I don't really mean to say that you shouldn't worry about it. But in a way I do. A lot (really a lot) changes between 9 and 13. And as much or more changes between 13 and 17.

 

You might find out that graduating her to enter college at 17 is just perfect, because she needs that level of stretching to be met on her level. You might find that she has loads of maturity. You might find that a gap year or dual enrollment is a better fit.

 

As long as you are meeting her with rigorous, challenging, upper level material, you have the option of deciding mid high school if she is 9th grade or 10th grade.

 

I have two boys who started K at almost 5. One is quite high achieving. Labeling him as a grade lower (as in "repeating" a grade) would end up putting him with kids who were age peers but not peers in maturity, reading or interests. So even though he's right on the edge, I've kept him in the higher grade.

 

I also have reservations about his going to college at not quite 18. But he's starting high school level work at 8th grade and I'm not sure in 5 years that I'm going to want to keep him back another year (I know I'm not teaching two years of calculus or advanced physics).

[SkateLeft]

My daughter will be 16 in July and just finished her junior year. She was a full-time dual-enrolled college student this year at 15. It's been the absolute best thing for her, but I understand that it probably wouldn't be the best thing for most other kids. I can't imagine having her be a sophomore or even a freshman this year. She was grade skipped 30 days after starting kindergarten, so like your daughter, she's been a year young from the beginning.

 

Personally, if I was going to delay graduation (which I'm not), I think it would be best to hold the child back as early as possible. It becomes much more difficult as time goes by. My teens are involved in so many outside things at this point, and have their own lives, and it would be tough to tell them they now have to tell their friends that they're taking an extra year to finish high school, etc.

 

It's possible to do a gap year, or take five years to complete high school and there are plenty of folks who do that, but I think it would be much easier to just call her a 5th grader again next year.

[BakersDozen]

My 13yo was set to graduate at 15yo - something I did not want! She would not been old enough to even take CC classes except for the last spring semester so I slowed her down in 6th grade by stretching our curricula out over a year and a half and I slowed her down by allowing her to do grade 9.5 this last year. She has gone back through her History with a different program, taking her time and enjoying more literature. She is reviewing her math and having a more relaxed year before moving on.

[EKS]

Have her work at her pace. Do not pay attention to "grade level", but choose the most appropriate materials. Keep her challenged. This will most likely include having her take college courses while in high school. Plan to go until 12th grade, and be prepared to change plans should things change. You do not have to decide now whether you want to graduate her early and do a gap year, or graduate her at 18 with more challenging coursework - the time to decide is prior to taking the PSAT in Junior year.

 

I have highly accelerated DC. DD took her first college class (physics the year she would have been in 8th grade. In the fall she is taking two four hour courses at a 4 year university, is very mature and wants to go away to college very badly because she needs academic peers, so she skipped a grade and will graduate at 17.

DS, OTOH, who is equally smart, took algebra in 6th grade etc, is not as mature and will be graduating at age 18. By that time he will have taken several college courses.

 

Things may change between now and then. Puberty may change things dramatically. I would not worry now, but just focus on choosing the most appropriate materials for your kids to challenge them at the right level.

 

This.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Have her work at her pace. Do not pay attention to "grade level", but choose the most appropriate materials. Keep her challenged. This will most likely include having her take college courses while in high school. Plan to go until 12th grade, and be prepared to change plans should things change. You do not have to decide now whether you want to graduate her early and do a gap year, or graduate her at 18 with more challenging coursework - the time to decide is prior to taking the PSAT in Junior year.

 

I have highly accelerated DC. DD took her first college class (physics the year she would have been in 8th grade. In the fall she is taking two four hour courses at a 4 year university, is very mature and wants to go away to college very badly because she needs academic peers, so she skipped a grade and will graduate at 17.

DS, OTOH, who is equally smart, took algebra in 6th grade etc, is not as mature and will be graduating at age 18. By that time he will have taken several college courses.

 

Things may change between now and then. Puberty may change things dramatically. I would not worry now, but just focus on choosing the most appropriate materials for your kids to challenge them at the right level.

 

Ok, this makes a lot of sense to me. Would you elaborate on the bold a little bit, though, please? Does this mean - if we decide she is ready to graduate at 17/end of 12, go ahead and take the PSAT in October of Junior year, but if we decide a delay is in order, wait to take the PSAT for another year?

 

I may be confused on timing of PSAT/SAT, so let me check in: my understanding is that PSATs are offered once a year in October, and it is better to take it later (i.e. junior year) than earlier? Then SATs are taken either spring of junior or fall of senior, prior to apps in fall/winter of senior?

 

I think back when I did the PSAT I took it in 10th grade, but I was not well guided through this process . . . don't want to make the same mistake with my kids.

[regentrude]

I may be confused on timing of PSAT/SAT, so let me check in: my understanding is that PSATs are offered once a year in October, and it is better to take it later (i.e. junior year) than earlier? .

 

The PSAT is given each year in October, yes.

You can take it in 10th and 11th grade, but only the 11th grade score counts for National Merit scholar. That's why you need to know which is her Jr year.

 

Then SATs are taken either spring of junior or fall of senior, prior to apps in fall/winter of senior?

 

You can take SAT whenever - just need to be early enough to have the scores back before you apply for college, i.e. Fall of Senior year. Some kids take it much earlier than Jr year.

Edited June 6, 2012 by regentrude

[Candid]

 

I may be confused on timing of PSAT/SAT, so let me check in: my understanding is that PSATs are offered once a year in October, and it is better to take it later (i.e. junior year) than earlier? Then SATs are taken either spring of junior or fall of senior, prior to apps in fall/winter of senior?

 

 

 

The PSAT taken in the junior year enters the student in the National Merit Scholarship contest. Obviously, they must score well enough to make various cuts, but it only counts for National Merit in the junior year: not sophomore, not senior, etc. So you must call that correctly.

[Chrysalis Academy]

The PSAT is given each year in October, yes.

You can take it in 10th and 11th grade, but only the 11th grade score counts for National Merit scholar. That's why you need to know which is her Jr year.

 

Gotcha, thanks. So we can remain undefined until the point at which we want the PSAT score to be considered for National Merit. That will be good for me :D. I don't do undefined very well! ;)

 

But I absolutely get what people are saying: do what you are doing, meeting her needs with challenging work at or just beyond her level, and don't worry about defining grade levels until the last moment - and you helped me figure out when that is. Thank you.

[mom31257]

I've homeschooled dd since she was in 3rd grade, but there were a lot of people who thought dd should start Kindergarten a year early. My dh and I were very opposed to it because we didn't want her to graduate a year early. Dd could read almost anything she wanted at 5 years old, without even having to sound things out. She scored at the top 1% on standardized testing as young as K age. We decided to keep her at grade level and just tried to teach her to enjoy school and have fun with it, even if it was stuff she already knew.

 

I kept her doing grade level work all through elementary and middle school, but I tried to challenge her in her strength, reading. I let her read books of her choosing, which were usually well above grade level. She was involved in a one day a week fine arts program, so grade level grammar and math made being involved outside of the home much easier. She's written a lot of fan fiction and is one her 3rd novel about Johannah Mason from The Hunger Games trilogy. Now I find that I'm glad she's not ahead. I'm glad she'll be home longer than if we had listened to everyone around us.

 

I heard Susan Wise Bauer speak at a conference, and she seemed to discourage the idea of kids starting college early. She said that very, very few kids are ready for college at 16. Only a few more are at 17, and really, only about 50% of 18 year olds are truly ready.

 

Why push them ahead and out the door? You can do grade level work in the basics and have time for them to pursue their interests at a challenging level as you and the child desire.

Edited June 6, 2012 by mom31257

[regentrude]

Why push them ahead and out the door? You can do grade level work in the basics and have time for them to pursue their interests at a challenging level as you and the child desires.

 

Yes, they can pursue interests - but one reason a kid might need to go to college early is the social aspect. Some students crave interaction with intellectual peers. They are withering intellectually unless you can get them into a university.

My 15 y/o DD's friends are all in college, or have already graduated, or are in grad school. She takes a few college classes, and that is where she thrives. Interactions with same age peers do not satisfy this need, a few dual enrollment classes are not sufficient. That is why she will graduate early and go to college.

[Alice]

You got good advice, so not much to add. My son is almost identical to your daughter: November birthday, started K at 4, just missed the state cutoff. I was biased to start him early because I skipped a grade myself and was always young and had no problem with it. Personally, I started college at 17 and was fine, my birthday is in Feb so I didn't turn 18 until mid-freshman year.

 

My plan for my kids is to have them all do a gap year, not so much because of the age but because I think it's a really great thing to do. I want them to have a year to explore some passions/take a break from schooling/gain some real life experience. I don't have a problem with them being young in college, but I also think that being a little older will be an added benefit of the gap year.

 

I see this kind of question a lot here and my experience is that most people's advice is not to do what we have done (not to advance the kids). I think it's very child dependent though and you really have to know your own child and what will work for them.

[Barbara H]

 

Why push them ahead and out the door? You can do grade level work in the basics and have time for them to pursue their interests at a challenging level as you and the child desire.

 

I really see this as a very individual thing with great variations from one child to the next. If it is "pushing" then absolutely it shouldn't be done. But, when child is really ready to enter college early it has nothing to do with pushing. These are not kids who could be kept at grade level through parents opting to provide less instruction. Often instead these are kids who are five or six years "ahead" before they even started school.

 

I'm wary of rules and percentages for what percent of kids are ready to do what by what age. Homeschooling allows for more flexibility than that. Also, college isn't just one thing - it can mean everything from living at home while attending a local school part time to moving cross country to live on campus.

[Jenny in Florida]

Yes, they can pursue interests - but one reason a kid might need to go to college early is the social aspect. Some students crave interaction with intellectual peers. They are withering intellectually unless you can get them into a university.

 

Exactly.

 

For what it's worth, more kids than you might imagine need to graduate and move on earlier than the typical age. And the parents of those kids aren't pushing. Instead, we're just trying to hang onto their coattails.

[Jenny in Florida]

These are not kids who could be kept at grade level through parents opting to provide less instruction.

 

And then there are kids like me. The kids who get so bored out of their minds being kept "at grade level" (even with specialization in areas of talent AND a gifted pull-out program) that they crash and burn.

 

Would you like to know how many of the kids with whom I was in that gifted program managed to graduate from high school?

 

Zero.

 

Yep, the "best and brightest" all, ALL quit going, got kicked out, sent to the "alternative" school, got pregnant, dropped out, got addicted (because getting stoned was more interesting than school), etc.

 

I don't know, but it seems to me like letting us accelerate and graduate a year or two early might have been a better plan.

 

(Who, me? Bitter?)

[Ellie]

I'd let her graduate when she finishes her high school course of study, no matter how old she is. She will have earned it.

 

Graduating doesn't mean she has to rush off to college. She can work and save her money for a year before college.

[Jenny in Florida]

Here's what I can tell you based on my experiences with my two kids.

 

Both of mine, from everything we can tell, are equally bright. However, my daughter was always more focused when it came to academics. She's very driven and goal oriented. She always wants to know where she's going, how she's going to get there and how to get there more quickly.

 

We never intended to let her accelerate the way she did. It just happened when we were trying not to bore her. (She's always been miserable -- and miserable to have in the house -- when she's bored.)

 

By the time we came up for air, she was ahead of her age peers by a good four or five grades.

 

She loves theatre, but was frustrated with the quality of performances and training we were able to get her access to here. She had no more than one close friend at a time, because she was always on an entirely different page -- in terms of academics, interests and emotional maturity -- than most of the kids she met. She was lonely and bored and wilting before our eyes.

 

When she was 12, we agreed to let her apply to an early entrance college program. She was accepted and went off to Virginia the next fall. She graduated with her B.A. at 16.

 

My son, on the other hand, is a social guy. He has a close-knit group of three other friends, with whom he's been buddies for several years. He has fingers in many, many pies around town. He dances and does theatre and techs and volunteers for museums and theatres. He never goes anywhere without running into someone he knows just waiting to give him a high five.

 

School isn't his reason for getting up in the morning. He's ahead by a year or two, but he isn't in a hurry to leave town. There are too many people and activities he cares about and enjoys for him to be in a rush.

 

He'll still graduate probably two years early, but it won't be six, like his sister.

 

So, if I have any advice at all -- and it may not help if you have on your hands a kid like my daughter who is determined to do things her own way and on her own schedule -- I'd say I'd try to get that kid as plugged into the community as I could. I'd make sure he or she had every opportunity I could manage to find people (preferably intellectual peers) and make friends. I'd nurture interests and hobbies that got him or her outside and involved in groups, preferably activities and hobbies that are not academic.

 

In short, I'd do every single thing I could to tie him or her as closely to "home" as possible.

 

And it still might not work.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Jenny in Florida

[mom31257]

I really see this as a very individual thing with great variations from one child to the next. If it is "pushing" then absolutely it shouldn't be done. But, when child is really ready to enter college early it has nothing to do with pushing. These are not kids who could be kept at grade level through parents opting to provide less instruction. Often instead these are kids who are five or six years "ahead" before they even started school.

 

I'm wary of rules and percentages for what percent of kids are ready to do what by what age. Homeschooling allows for more flexibility than that. Also, college isn't just one thing - it can mean everything from living at home while attending a local school part time to moving cross country to live on campus.

 

Yes, it is an individual thing, and a child who is that far ahead is going to lead a very different life than the normal child who is gifted in one or two areas. My dh was an administrator in private education for several years, and he dealt with many parents who insisted on putting their gifted children ahead a grade level or two. He saw many social problems with it later in those children's school years. I've seen problems in church as well. Homeschooling would be a different case than a child attending regular school.

 

Percentages are just that, a glimpse into the possibilities. With Susan Wise Bauer being a college professor, I do respect her opinion because she is basing it on personal experience as well.

[Jenny in Florida]

Yes, it is an individual thing, and a child who is that far ahead is going to lead a very different life than the normal child who is gifted in one or two areas. My dh was an administrator in private education for several years, and he dealt with many parents who insisted on putting their gifted children ahead a grade level or two. He saw many social problems with it later in those children's school years. I've seen problems in church as well. Homeschooling would be a different case than a child attending regular school.

 

Percentages are just that, a glimpse into the possibilities. With Susan Wise Bauer being a college professor, I do respect her opinion because she is basing it on personal experience as well.

 

As much as I respect SWB, I do differ with her on some points. This is one of them.

 

My "personal experience" comes from having been a gifted child who wasn't allowed to progress appropriately and from raising two gifted kids who have been allowed to do so.

 

Actually, there's been some research into these questions, and the consensus everywhere except within public schools is that radical acceleration is not only appropriate for some kids but necessary to their emotional well being. I'm not aware of any reputable studies showing anything different, but I'd be happy to read anything anyone wants to link or suggest?

 

In fact, there's a new book coming out in, I think, a couple of weeks about very young college students. It's called College at 13 and is getting wonderful reviews. It's based on studies of kids who are allowed to radically accelerate and follows up with a group of women in their 30s who all went to college early. Obviously, I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but my impression is that the women studied are all doing quite well.

 

Edited to add: Anyone interested in the whole acceleration question, and maybe especially parents struggling with it for their own kids, might be interested in the Nation Deceived report from a few years ago.

 

The whole report is available to read online for free here: http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceived/Get_Report.aspx

 

But I thought the following summary of important points might be helpful to this conversation:

 

1. Acceleration is the most effective curriculum intervention for gifted children.

2. For bright students, acceleration has long-term beneficial effects, both academically and socially.

3. Acceleration is a virtually cost-free intervention.

4. Gifted children tend to be socially and emotionally more mature than their age-mates. For many bright students,

acceleration provides a better personal maturity match with classmates.

5. When bright students are presented with curriculum developed for age-peers, they can become bored and unhappy

and get turned off from learning.

6. Testing, especially above-level testing (using tests developed for older students), is highly effective in identifying students

who would benefit from acceleration.

7. The evidence and mechanisms are available to help schools make good decisions about acceleration so that it is a

low-risk/high-success intervention for qualifi ed students. The Iowa Acceleration Scale is a proven, effective instrument for

helping schools make decisions about whole-grade acceleration.

8. The 18 types of acceleration available to bright students fall into two broad categories: grade-based acceleration, which

shortens the number of years a student spends in the K–12 system and subject-based acceleration, which allows for

advanced content earlier than customary.

9. Entering school early is an excellent option for some gifted students both academically and socially. High ability young

children who enroll early generally settle in smoothly with their older classmates.

10. Gifted students entering college early experience both short-term and long-term academic success, leading to longterm

occupational success and personal satisfaction.

11. Many alternatives to full-time early college entrance are available for bright high school students who prefer to stay with

age-peers. These include dual enrollment in high school and college, distance education, and summer programs. Advanced

Placement (AP) is the best large-scale option for bright students who want to take college-level courses in high school.

12. Very few early college entrants experience social or emotional diffi culties. When these do occur they are usually shortterm

and part of the adjustment process.

13. Radical acceleration (acceleration by two or more years) is effective academically and socially for highly gifted students.

14. Many educators have been largely negative about the practice of acceleration, despite abundant research evidence for

its success and viability.

15. To encourage a major change in America’s perceptions of educational acceleration, we will need to use all the engines

of change: legislation, the courts, administrative rules, and professional initiatives.

16. Effective implementation of accelerative options for gifted students with disabilities is time- and resource-intensive.

17. It is important for parents to be fully involved in the decision-making process about their child’s acceleration.

18. The few problems that have been experienced with acceleration have stemmed primarily from incomplete or poor planning.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Jenny in Florida

[Chrysalis Academy]

I'd let her graduate when she finishes her high school course of study, no matter how old she is. She will have earned it.

 

Graduating doesn't mean she has to rush off to college. She can work and save her money for a year before college.

 

 

See, this is part of my problem: how do you know when you are "finished" if you aren't either counting years, counting subjects, or making a comparison to some external list (i.e. A-G subject requirements)?

 

I mean, ideally learning is a lifelong process, right? You never, ever have read all the books or know all there is to know on a topic. One of the best parts of hsing for me is getting to study things I either missed or skipped in my own formal education, or reviewing things I wished I'd studied more of. I have zero concerns about "running out" of material for her to study. AoPs has zillions of cool advanced math classes. In science you can cover an almost infinite number of advanced/specialized topics if you "finish" basic bio, chem, physics, etc. And in history and literature, it is absolutely impossible to cover even a fraction of all the "must reads" out there in 4 years of study!

 

Granted, you can be finished with high school level material at a very finite point in time - when you finish it. So are you suggesting that when the student finishes high school level material they are done with high school? That is one option, but there are also lots and lots of students who cover college-level material while still in high school, via AP classes, dual enrollment, etc.

 

These are two very different paths, I see that. I guess my inclination is to accelerate/advance the material while still within the envelope of "high school" rather than to call a kid "done" at a young age. I don't know if I can articulate why completely, I will have to keep thinking about this, but I guess it has partly to do with the idea of "done." I don't ever want my kids to think they are "done" learning. I know I wll never be done. Of course, I am able to continue learning without the formal structure of school, and maybe that is what this path offers: a chance to continue lifelong learning in a freer, less structured way. I can see that working well for some, or maybe for everyone when they are mature/old enough . . . so again, I guess this is a decision you make on a case-by-case basis, depending on whether your student can continue learning in an unstructured environment.

 

Now I guess I'm getting into the whole unschooling/formal schooling thing, and the whole question of when/how/why people learn best. So I will stop talking now. :D

[regentrude]

See, this is part of my problem: how do you know when you are "finished" if you aren't either counting years, counting subjects, or making a comparison to some external list (i.e. A-G subject requirements)?

 

 

There is a pretty good consensus what constitutes the required credits for a high school education. You are never "finished" learning - but a student can be finished covering the material required for high school. If youw ant to apply a rigorous standards, you can look bat the admissions requirements for the most selective universities. If the student has accomplished all this, his high school education can be considered finished, and he will continue his education by other means.

 

Granted, you can be finished with high school level material at a very finite point in time - when you finish it. So are you suggesting that when the student finishes high school level material they are done with high school? That is one option, but there are also lots and lots of students who cover college-level material while still in high school, via AP classes, dual enrollment, etc.

 

 

You can, for a gifted student, cover the entire high school material at college level.

You always have to balance the academic progress of your student with her social and emotional maturity. It is quite possible for a gifted student to have finished a standard high school education at age 12 - but your student may be far from ready to move on to college. So, you do more work, at college level, at home and with dual enrollment, until both you and the student come to the conclusion that she is now ready to go away to university.

 

These are two very different paths, I see that. I guess my inclination is to accelerate/advance the material while still within the envelope of "high school" rather than to call a kid "done" at a young age. I don't know if I can articulate why completely, I will have to keep thinking about this, but I guess it has partly to do with the idea of "done." I don't ever want my kids to think they are "done" learning. I

 

They are not "done" at that point. the way I look at it: they are graduating high school when they are ready to continue their education in a different setting; when they are both able to handle, and need, the intellectual stimulation of a university environment where experts help them further their education in a way I can not achieve at home.

 

I would not agonize about it with your kids still this young. You will recognize the right point in time and the right course when it is in front of you.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

I would not agonize about it with your kids still this young. You will recognize the right point in time and the right course when it is in front of you.

 

Also, situations with kids, families and opportunities can change a lot in 5-10 years.

 

Many of the curriculum that were available 10 years ago when we started homeschooling have been surpassed by better options. The decade has seen extreme growth in AP options, online courses, dual enrollment and digtally enhanced texts. Many of the hot homeschool cirriculum were hardly of the drawing board a decade ago.

 

Kids have a tendency not to follow linear development. You may want the ability to slow down and ride out puberty. You may also find they are ready to fly far earlier than their age peers.

[Jenny in Florida]

There is a pretty good consensus what constitutes the required credits for a high school education. You are never "finished" learning - but a student can be finished covering the material required for high school. If youw ant to apply a rigorous standards, you can look bat the admissions requirements for the most selective universities. If the student has accomplished all this, his high school education can be considered finished, and he will continue his education by other means.

 

Right. We determined our daughter was "done" with "high school" when she had met the college-prep requirements for graduating from high schools in our district and it was also the right time for her to head out into the world.

 

My son is aiming at finishing the same set of requirments, after which he will likely spend a year locally doing a certificate program in a field that interests him at the community college. He feels like after that will be right time for him to move on to the next step.

 

 

I would not agonize about it with your kids still this young. You will recognize the right point in time and the right course when it is in front of you.

 

Yes, this is also true. My daughter changed her mind several times in her last couple of years at home before settling on the early entrance program. When it clicked, though, it was clear.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thanks, guys. I promise I am not agonizing over it ;) but it is very, very useful to think it through at this point. So these discussions are very helpful.

[quark]

Thanks, guys. I promise I am not agonizing over it ;) but it is very, very useful to think it through at this point. So these discussions are very helpful.

 

I'm right there with you. My son has started auditing courses with Coursera.org

 

I'm grateful for the free, online, intro college level courses. The one he took in March stretched him intellectually and introduced him to computer security and college style note-taking. He can work through the material for 2 -3 hours at a stretch now when needed.

 

There's a fantasy and science fiction course we might do together. Fun offerings in history, computer science etc. too. I intend to use Coursera to avoid boredom and crankiness until he is emotionally ready for 4-year college. We don't have very good community colleges within 30 minutes driving distance.

 

You can also sign up with edX to find out about upcoming Harvard-MIT online courses.

 

Just some options for you to consider when other resources are too easy for your DD.

Edited June 6, 2012 by quark

[Ellie]

See, this is part of my problem: how do you know when you are "finished" if you aren't either counting years, counting subjects, or making a comparison to some external list (i.e. A-G subject requirements)?

 

I mean, ideally learning is a lifelong process, right? You never, ever have read all the books or know all there is to know on a topic. One of the best parts of hsing for me is getting to study things I either missed or skipped in my own formal education, or reviewing things I wished I'd studied more of. I have zero concerns about "running out" of material for her to study. AoPs has zillions of cool advanced math classes. In science you can cover an almost infinite number of advanced/specialized topics if you "finish" basic bio, chem, physics, etc. And in history and literature, it is absolutely impossible to cover even a fraction of all the "must reads" out there in 4 years of study!

 

Granted, you can be finished with high school level material at a very finite point in time - when you finish it. So are you suggesting that when the student finishes high school level material they are done with high school? That is one option, but there are also lots and lots of students who cover college-level material while still in high school, via AP classes, dual enrollment, etc.

 

These are two very different paths, I see that. I guess my inclination is to accelerate/advance the material while still within the envelope of "high school" rather than to call a kid "done" at a young age. I don't know if I can articulate why completely, I will have to keep thinking about this, but I guess it has partly to do with the idea of "done." I don't ever want my kids to think they are "done" learning. I know I wll never be done. Of course, I am able to continue learning without the formal structure of school, and maybe that is what this path offers: a chance to continue lifelong learning in a freer, less structured way. I can see that working well for some, or maybe for everyone when they are mature/old enough . . . so again, I guess this is a decision you make on a case-by-case basis, depending on whether your student can continue learning in an unstructured environment.

 

Now I guess I'm getting into the whole unschooling/formal schooling thing, and the whole question of when/how/why people learn best. So I will stop talking now. :D

Personally, I don't think "maturity" should be part of the graduation grid.

 

We graduated our dc on their 16th birthdays, because both at that time were almost full-time students at the community college, and I figured they had learned as much at home as they were gonna. :D

 

Some people in California graduate their dc when they can pass the CHSPE (students must be 16 or be in second semester of 10th grade).

 

Some people decide on a course of study: completion of certain subjects---not credits, you understand, but *subjects*. From that point on the young adults are responsible for their own continued learning.

 

Some people required a specific course of study that follows the local public school--X number of credits in English, history, math, science, electives--or on their children's choice of colleges' requirements.

 

When you get closer to that point, you and your dd can figure out what she needs to do at home so she can do the next thing as an adult, and when she completes that, she graduates.

[garddwr]

My 13yo was set to graduate at 15yo - something I did not want! She would not been old enough to even take CC classes except for the last spring semester so I slowed her down in 6th grade by stretching our curricula out over a year and a half and I slowed her down by allowing her to do grade 9.5 this last year. She has gone back through her History with a different program, taking her time and enjoying more literature. She is reviewing her math and having a more relaxed year before moving on.

 

I like the idea of doing grade x.5--I wouldn't have thought of that! I think it would seem less like re-doing a grade, because as we all know labels do matter to kids! I've thought about this issue many times because I have two children with birthdays late in the year and while just working at their level works great for now I don't know whether it will be better for them to go of to college a little young or have an extra year at home. At some point (high school) they will need to have grade-level designations that line them up for one or the other of those scenarios, and it's so hard to know whether they will be ready and chomping at the bit to move on or needing a little more time at home.

[wapiti]

A long time ago, I asked a related question here. My current opinion generally (not considering field of study and planned grad school considerations), is that I'd graduate them at the regular age, taking advantage of the extra time for advanced coursework with an eye toward scholarships and application to highly selective schools. If the student were so advanced that he or she could gain admission and/or scholarships to highly selective schools even at an earlier age, only then would I be open to the idea of graduating early.

[Chrysalis Academy]

A long time ago, I asked a related question here. My current opinion generally (not considering field of study and planned grad school considerations), is that I'd graduate them at the regular age, taking advantage of the extra time for advanced coursework with an eye toward scholarships and application to highly selective schools. If the student were so advanced that he or she could gain admission and/or scholarships to highly selective schools even at an earlier age, only then would I be open to the idea of graduating early.

 

Oh, thank you for these links! More great reading.

 

Yes. While not agonizing over this (as promised) ;) I do think that there is plenty of opportunity to provide advanced coursework within the homeschool framework and that there is no hurry to grow up and move on . . . and that Miss P will let me know what she needs when the time comes . . . and that whatever I figure out with her, Mo will throw me a huge loop and we'll do something completely different with her! :D

 

I'm also thinking that there is a huge potential that college itself will change fairly dramatically over the next 8-12 years. With MIT/Harvard's new online education platform, coursera, open university, Khan academy, etc. it will be really interesting to see what kind of conversations we are having here in 6 or 8 years about college and college prep. While what it takes to be a successful lifelong learner probably won't change too much at all.

[Seveninthesand]

I have a ds with a Nov. birthday as well and although I have him enrolled officially with the school board according to his age, he is working at home at his own pace. I expect that he will spend the last few years of high school doing AP and dual enrollment classes. It is pretty standard for students applying to selective admissions colleges to have a whole bunch of college-level courses under their belt. My 9th grader plans to start taking AP courses starting in 10th grade. IMO, having a late birthday puts kids at an advantage: they have more time to work through advanced courses before going to college.

[angela in ohio]

You can, for a gifted student, cover the entire high school material at college level.

You always have to balance the academic progress of your student with her social and emotional maturity. It is quite possible for a gifted student to have finished a standard high school education at age 12 - but your student may be far from ready to move on to college. So, you do more work, at college level, at home and with dual enrollment, until both you and the student come to the conclusion that she is now ready to go away to university.

 

This is what we have chosen for second dd. She has the test scores as an 8th grader to enter a great college NOW, and she will have exhausted typical high school material by the end of the summer, but she's 14 yo. She will do high school at a college level, some with me and some at the CC or online. We DID go broader and add in a lot of other things, but we still have come to this point. You can't slow down kiddos like this.

 

I think for many of use who came from poor to decent schools, we don't understand that there can be *more* to high school. Look at the sites for a few great schools, look at the stats for kiddos getting into great universities. There is plenty more out there than the typical public school high school experience.

[regentrude]

I think for many of use who came from poor to decent schools, we don't understand that there can be *more* to high school. Look at the sites for a few great schools, look at the stats for kiddos getting into great universities. There is plenty more out there than the typical public school high school experience.

 

:iagree:

I grew up elsewhere and never went through the US school system. I try to model our education standards on the college prep education in my home country - and the difference in standards is mind blowing. (For example, back home every student intending to attend a 4 year university has a mandatory two years of calculus in high school, even if they want to major in humanities. Every student studies at least two foreign languages for 10 and 7 years, respectively, even if they want to go into STEM)

 

There is a LOT kids can learn in high school.

[Teachin'Mine]

:iagree:

I grew up elsewhere and never went through the US school system. I try to model our education standards on the college prep education in my home country - and the difference in standards is mind blowing. (For example, back home every student intending to attend a 4 year university has a mandatory two years of calculus in high school, even if they want to major in humanities. Every student studies at least two foreign languages for 10 and 7 years, respectively, even if they want to go into STEM)

 

There is a LOT kids can learn in high school.

 

I absolutely that there is a lot that kids can learn in high school - according to their particular abilities.

 

But in all fairness, the percent of students who are in the highest level of high school education and preparing for university is very small - or at least according to Wiki. :tongue_smilie: I have no first hand knowledge of German education, but it seems that the students are put into different academic tracks prior to beginning high school. Interestingly, in this link, at the very bottom, it shows that in the work force in Germany, only 11 pct of them had passed the exam to enter into a university. Or am I reading this wrong. I had to google what the Arbitur meant.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany

 

It would be interesting to know what percent of the high school students are in each of the four high school tracks.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Teachin'Mine

[Laura Corin]

We have done a few things. When we home educated we went broad as well as deep and fast. Calvin was learning three languages at home, for example.

 

When he entered school he skipped one grade. Intellectually he could probably have skipped another grade or two, but there was a little space there for working on the social side of things and lots of extracurriculars.

 

He will not be eighteen when he leaves school. He will probably take a gap year before going to university.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[regentrude]

But in all fairness' date=' the percent of students who are in the highest level of high school education and preparing for university is very small - or at least according to Wiki.

I have no first hand knowledge of German education, but it seems that the students are put into different academic tracks prior to beginning high school. Interestingly, in this link, at the very bottom, it shows that in the [b']work force in Germany, only 11 pct of them had passed the exam to enter into a university[/b]. Or am I reading this wrong. I had to google what the Arbitur meant.

It would be interesting to know what percent of the high school students are in each of the four high school tracks.

 

That information you cite may talk about the whole work force and include the older generation.

These days, roughly fifty percent of the students attend a college preparatory high school track (gymnasium), and about 48.4% of 18-20 year olds have passed the Abitur (2010d ata), the exam that allows students to attend a four year university.

 

Btw, there are only three tracks, in many states only 2. Halt attend the college prep track, the other half the remaining 1 or 2 tracks. With the lower tracks, students graduate after 10th grade with a recognized diploma (they are NOT dropouts!) and then continue their education in vocational training or apprenticeships or vocational schools that would be comparable to a US college.

 

I still think the comparison is relevant because I see many university bound students in this country whose public school did not even offer calculus or physics (even though they are interested in STEM majors and would have loved to take those classes). In the US, gifted students especially in rural areas are seriously shortchaged by the meager offerings and low standards of their public schools and often without choice.

Edited June 7, 2012 by regentrude

[Barb_]

Here is what we did.

 

When they were ready for high school level courses, they did them, even though that meant age 9 or 10 in some subject areas. When they were ready for college courses (14 for one, 15 for another, 16 for another), they did them. We just kept track of everything that was high school level or above, and the year they turned 18 I grouped everything into subject areas, taking the highest classes in each area. So that means that my oldest daughter, who took Algebra, Geometry and Algebra II before she was 14 only listed Pre-calculus, Calc I, Calc II, and Calc III on her transcript. The preparatory classes would be understood. The second one started high school level English at 12, but we called the class she took at age 14 "Literature and Composition I" even though the class was upper high school level. I grouped the courses by subject heading rather than by year. This allowed me to create a nicely rounded, solid transcript without looking as if I were padding it.

 

They took community college classes (we are lucky to have a terrific one nearby) as high school students and graduated with 55-60 credits each. Best of both worlds.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Barb F. PA in AZ

[Teachin'Mine]

That information you cite may talk about the whole work force and include the older generation.

These days, roughly fifty percent of the students attend a college preparatory high school track (gymnasium), and about 48.4% of 18-20 year olds have passed the Abitur (2010d ata), the exam that allows students to attend a four year university.

 

 

Yes, it was for the whole work force. So today it's about 25% of the total high school students who are eligible to go to university?

 

 

Btw, there are only three tracks, in many states only 2. Halt attend the college prep track, the other half the remaining 1 or 2 tracks. With the lower tracks, students graduate after 10th grade with a recognized diploma (they are NOT dropouts!) and then continue their education in vocational training or apprenticeships or vocational schools that would be comparable to a US college.

 

 

Their vocational schools are comparable to our colleges???

 

 

I still think the comparison is relevant because I see many university bound students in this country whose public school did not even offer calculus or physics (even though they are interested in STEM majors and would have loved to take those classes). In the US, gifted students especially in rural areas are seriously shortchaged by the meager offerings and low standards of their public schools and often without choice.

 

 

I thoroughly agree that many schools do not offer enough options for the top students. Many families have chosen homeschooling for that very reason.

[Teachin'Mine]

Rose, in answer to your question, you and your student can decide when to graduate as you get closer to beginning high school. In the meantime, I wouldn't worry at all about grade level and just let her work at her own pace in each subject, making sure that the work is challenging enough to be fun. As school work may be done in a lot less time than others at her "grade level", you can allow her to have the time to pursue her own interests whether they be academic or otherwise. IOW have fun before the rigour of high school. :tongue_smilie:

Edited June 7, 2012 by Teachin'Mine

[regentrude]

 

Yes' date=' it was for the whole work force. So today it's about 25% of the total high school students who are eligible to go to university?

[/quote']

 

 

No, the 48.4% is out of ALL 18-20 year olds, not out of the ones who go to gymnasium. All the 48.4% are eligible to attend a four year university (there are some finer points; one slightly reduced version of the abitur allows only attendance at some 4 year schools, not general universities)

 

Their vocational schools are comparable to our colleges???

Part of it is semantics. Let me see if I can explain how it works:

Many professions for which students attend a college in the US are taught at a school that is not considered a "college" in Germany and that does not require the student to have graduated from the highest track 12 year high school (which would be required for university)

In order to be a nurse, for instance, students finish the lower track with the 10th grade diploma and then enter a 3 year nursing school.

In order to become a certain kind of IT support technician (Informatikkaufmann - don't know the translation) in a company, students also only finish the 10 year school and go to a 3 year vocational school.

The police academy only requires the 10 year school diploma.

 

OTOH, almost everybody receives special training. In order to work in a daycare, students finish the 10 year diploma and must attend a three year school where they get an early childhood education degree that allows them to teach daycare and preschool. To become an auto mechanic requires 3.5 years of specialized education.

 

So, it is very hard to compare the system, and caution is needed when comparing numbers of people with "college degrees" in the US with people who attended "university" in Germany - this is not the same thing.

[Teachin'Mine]

No, the 48.4% is out of ALL 18-20 year olds, not out of the ones who go to gymnasium. All the 48.4% are eligible to attend a four year university (there are some finer points; one slightly reduced version of the abitur allows only attendance at some 4 year schools, not general universities)

 

Part of it is semantics. Let me see if I can explain how it works:

Many professions for which students attend a college in the US are taught at a school that is not considered a "college" in Germany and that does not require the student to have graduated from the highest track 12 year high school (which would be required for university)

In order to be a nurse, for instance, students finish the lower track with the 10th grade diploma and then enter a 3 year nursing school.

In order to become a certain kind of IT support technician (Informatikkaufmann - don't know the translation) in a company, students also only finish the 10 year school and go to a 3 year vocational school.

The police academy only requires the 10 year school diploma.

 

OTOH, almost everybody receives special training. In order to work in a daycare, students finish the 10 year diploma and must attend a three year school where they get an early childhood education degree that allows them to teach daycare and preschool. To become an auto mechanic requires 3.5 years of specialized education.

 

So, it is very hard to compare the system, and caution is needed when comparing numbers of people with "college degrees" in the US with people who attended "university" in Germany - this is not the same thing.

 

Thank you for explaining. Very interesting!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

It's also worth noting that many of the non-Gymnasium graduates will leave school with professional certificates for their chosen profession. These go well beyond what the US would consider trades. There are also a lot of jobs that require a college degree in the US that don't have such a requirement in Germany.

[Mommyfaithe]

In all honesty, it is not unusual for high school students to earn college credits in high school through dual enrollment or AP. In fact, many of the top tier colleges expect applicants to be accelerated.

 

That said, I think all bets are off when our kids (particularly boys) are young teens. Their physical growth spurts seem to affect their mental processes. So don't be surprised if your daughter slows a bit.

 

And if she doesn't, hurrah! High school is a great time to explore passions. You can design all sorts of interesting courses or take advantage of travel opportunities.

 

There is no one path to success to high school or homeschool.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

I didn't graduate my kids early. I just called their grade whatever their age was....and used books and other materials or outside classes to meet their needs. It is perfectly reasonable to use a college text as a spine and go more in-depth with your studies during high school eve without college credit looming. We used those years to study deeply. Most college courses are 12 weeks of intense GET IT DONE. We had the advantage of a more gentle pace....yet very rigorous content.

 

Kids can be accelerated or advanced and still be kids. My kids academics usually outpaced their maturity level.

Faithe