Another religion question if we can stand it (((smile)))

[Marylou]

I'll just cut to the chase since it's almost 11 p.m. and I have to get up at 4 a.m. to go on a trip :glare:

 

I have been following most of the Christian/atheist/insert your religion here __________ discussions and find them very interesting.

 

First, I keep thinking about non-Christians who say they admire or appreciate certain things about Jesus. If you are such a person 1) I would like to know where you get your information about Jesus (history books, the Bible, other?), and 2) will you specifically name something that you admire/appreciate? I guess I am assuming that if you admire the teaching of someone you believe that specific "lesson" to be good and true.

 

Second, the reason Jesus was condemned to die on the cross was because he claimed to be God. Is it possible to admire someone for part of their teachings and at the same time believe they are lying about another teaching?

 

Third, I am not trying to convert anyone!

 

Now it's ten past eleven!

[tricia]

Okay, interesting question. Seems perfect for a late night thought. I'm curious to see the replys.:001_smile:

[Rosie_0801]

I fit into none of the major religions, but admire parts of most. (Not sure I've found anything admirable about Rastafarians, but I admit I haven't tried to.) Religion has been an interest of mine since I was capable of comprehending the scope, I suppose.

 

1) My info about Jesus came from years of Sunday school, my ex-evangelical dh and a variety of books I've read. Most of those books were history of the church type things. I read this when I was a teen and was completely fascinated.

 

2) What's not to admire about someone who's willing to stand up for what they believe in? Bravery is a good lesson, even if you think their beliefs are incorrect.

 

:)

Rosie

[Spy Car]

Not sure I've found anything admirable about Rastafarians, but I admit I haven't tried to.

 

Good food. The best "praise music". And some interesting sacraments ;)

 

Bill

[Rosie_0801]

Food huh? Alright, there's something worth investigating!

 

Rosie- the foodie

[Spy Car]

Food huh? Alright, there's something worth investigating!

 

Rosie- the foodie

 

With all that Ganga, there needed to be good eats. Search for "Ital food". Mostly vegetarian. Good stuff!

 

Are we off topic? :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

[Stacia]

I haven't been following a lot of the recent threads on religion, so I'm not sure what views have been expressed in those.

 

On your first point, I think Rosie pretty much summed it up for me too. You can admire certain things about a person, or group, w/ out being a 'follower' of that person or group.

 

My (Christian) knowledge comes from various sources: I grew up in a partly religious enviroment (going to church semi-regularly as I grew up), sometimes attending private religious schools, general reading/literature, knowing & being around many people who consider themselves religious, etc....

 

As to your second point, I have a question. If someone believes something about himself, is he a 'liar' just because you don't agree w/ his self-assessment? I think there's a lot open to interpretation there....

[Peela]

1A) I went to Sunday School and a Christian School, even though my parents were/are atheist. I was simply exposed to the teachings about Jesus through that, and it created a foundation so that over the years one picks up more information through the media, through references in other material, through homeschooling using Christian materials at times :). I also have a fascination with religions and often comparisons are drawn.

 

1B) Who can not be impressed with the character of Jesus? Unconditional love and kindness, compassion, an ability to get tough when needed, and a willingness to stand by what he felt was true in times that literally crucified people for doing that.

 

2. Sure, its possible to admire someone for part of their life or teaching, and not another part. But that's not the case for me here with what you have said. As far as I am concerned, no one knows much of what Jesus actually did because I don't believe the historical records are particularly accurate. There has been a lot of corruption between then and now, and many politics within the church system. So while many Christians take "what Christ said" as depicted in the Bible, literally, I do not. I don't see the Bible as a factual book of the Word of God, I see it as an historical document that has been corrupted and changed over time. So it doesn't bother me that I see beauty and wonderful wisdom in some parts, and disagree or discount other parts. I have no conflict about it because I try and take the essence. Nor doI worry that Jesus was lying. I dont believe we really know what he thought or said.

I also feel there have been and are and always will be many saints and deeply wise people, but I see them as people who have found Oneness, wholeness, enlightenment, and another way of saying that is to say they have found God...and I believe everyone is capable of that. They try and show us what we are capable of, our own true nature, and I don't think we are supposed to worship them the way people do. We are meant to look where they are pointing, which is within ourselves.

[nmoira]

I'm with Rosie, except for the evangelical ex.

 

Second, the reason Jesus was condemned to die on the cross was because he claimed to be God. Is it possible to admire someone for part of their teachings and at the same time believe they are lying about another teaching?

Assuming Jesus actually existed and said this, that doesn't mean he didn't believe it. [Not trying to start a debate or insult anyone's beliefs, just my opinion.] If I have a novel in me, it will be about a small child who asks his/her mother where she came from and receives the answer, "You came from God," and takes it literally. Been toying with it for a few years.

[Citrusheights5]

1) I would like to know where you get your information about Jesus (history books, the Bible, other?), and 2) will you specifically name something that you admire/appreciate? I guess I am assuming that if you admire the teaching of someone you believe that specific "lesson" to be good and true.

 

Second, the reason Jesus was condemned to die on the cross was because he claimed to be God. Is it possible to admire someone for part of their teachings and at the same time believe they are lying about another teaching?

 

 

First I learned about him, from the bible, and from Sunday school( raised catholic). I am fascinated by the man, the following, and all the goodness he did in life, and the sacrifices he made. I believe deeply in god, I believe in Jesus. I absolutely abhor religion. I believe that it is one of the greatest evils of the world. Anytime you take someone's deeply held belief, and pin them against something/one else , you've established a platform for fighting and war. I see no good in participating in organized religion, only pain..

[SherryTX]

1a) The bible, as well as various study aids in my religion at the time, as well as conversations and reading writings by thouse outside my religion - I was a very devout JW for many years, and have studied the bible pretty well. (Say what you want about JWs, but they take bible study EXTREMELY seriously) I still read it on occaision now. I enjoy it - and am teaching my kids about it, because it is the source of Judeo-Christian beliefs, and I think it would be good that my kids have somehwat of an understanding of what is in it. I am doing the same with various mythology and at some point, have them get some ideas of what is in the koran.

 

1b) Jesus was a very interesting speaker, and I find it very interesting how he was able to get people to gather for his sermons. I liked how he treated women.

 

2) Impressed? Yes, by virtue of the fact that although he wasn't alive very long, the effect of his words have lasted two thousand years. Unfortunately, I don't think what we have today is what he had in mind (and I certainly don't think the crusades were what he had in mind either.) I would say I am more impressed with him as a person than I am with what people have done in his name over the last 2000 years or so.

 

By the way - I don't agree that he claimed to be god. I believe he claimed to be the son of god. I am sure (as others had said if he did exist as the way the bible states his story - it doesn't really matter to me at this point either way) that he believed it. I also don't think it was very smart of him to let himself be taken by the mob and be nailed to a cross (or stake - doesn't really matter). Perhaps he could have stuck around a little longer and not let the Apostles and others add to his message. (I am thinking specifically of the Apostle Paul here - I think he added a lot of things that Jesus didn't even hint at, such as man's submission of woman, etc. Seriously, without the women in Jesus' life, I don't think the religion would have gotten anywhere it is today.)

 

Going back to the Bible in general - I have to tell you there is a lot of beautiful writings in there. I love reading the Psalms, and especially the Song of Solomon. Absolutely beautiful!

[SherryTX]

I'm with Rosie, except for the evangelical ex.

 

Assuming Jesus actually existed and said this, that doesn't mean he didn't believe it. [Not trying to start a debate or insult anyone's beliefs, just my opinion.] If I have a novel in me, it will be about a small child who asks his/her mother where she came from and receives the answer, "You came from God," and takes it literally. Been toying with it for a few years.

 

That would be a very good idea for a novel actually!

[asta]

1B) Who can not be impressed with the character of Jesus? Unconditional love and kindness, compassion, an ability to get tough when needed, and a willingness to stand by what he felt was true in times that literally crucified people for doing that.

 

2. Sure, its possible to admire someone for part of their life or teaching, and not another part. But that's not the case for me here with what you have said. As far as I am concerned, no one knows much of what Jesus actually did because I don't believe the historical records are particularly accurate. There has been a lot of corruption between then and now, and many politics within the church system. So while many Christians take "what Christ said" as depicted in the Bible, literally, I do not. I don't see the Bible as a factual book of the Word of God, I see it as an historical document that has been corrupted and changed over time. So it doesn't bother me that I see beauty and wonderful wisdom in some parts, and disagree or discount other parts. I have no conflict about it because I try and take the essence. Nor doI worry that Jesus was lying. I dont believe we really know what he thought or said.

I also feel there have been and are and always will be many saints and deeply wise people, but I see them as people who have found Oneness, wholeness, enlightenment, and another way of saying that is to say they have found God...and I believe everyone is capable of that. They try and show us what we are capable of, our own true nature, and I don't think we are supposed to worship them the way people do. We are meant to look where they are pointing, which is within ourselves.

 

I agree.

 

And whenever someone starts quoting biblical passages at me (and I've never had that happen from a Catholic) I simply think to myself "does this person know that the Roman Catholic Church wrote the bible?"

 

 

asta

[stripe]

I would like to know where you get your information about Jesus (history books, the Bible, other?),

 

Translation of the Qur'an, Surah Maryam (19:16-35, tr. Yusuf Ali):

 

Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

 

She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

 

She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."

 

He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

 

She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

 

He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

 

So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

 

And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"

 

But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;

 

"And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.

 

"So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"

 

At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

 

"O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

 

But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

 

He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

 

"And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

 

"(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

 

"So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

 

Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

 

It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Second, the reason Jesus was condemned to die on the cross was because he claimed to be God. Is it possible to admire someone for part of their teachings and at the same time believe they are lying about another teaching?

 

You might want to re-read that account carefully. There were actually several hearings. In none of them, did he claim to be God. NEVER did he claim to be God! Throughout his life, Jesus was adamant several times that he was NOT God, that he should not be worshipped as God, etc. He gave ALL the glory to God EVERY time. The scriptures also are clear that though he was perfect and in union with God completely (he had been taught by the Almighty of the Universe from the time he was CREATED!), that he never tried to take credit that wasn't his or elevate his status any further. He was happy with his position beside his Father. No one asked him if he WAS God anyway. No doubt he would have AGAIN set them straight if they had. He didn't deny being Christ, the Son of God, King. He also said he would be at God's right hand. In the end though, no fault was found in him.

Edited April 11, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Jenny in Florida]

1) I would like to know where you get your information about Jesus (history books, the Bible, other?)

 

I've learned about Jesus from a variety of sources. I doubt that it's possible to grow up in this country and not learn about Jesus and Christianity. In my case, I've had a number of friends over the years who belonged to various Christian denominations, and I went to church with some of them and had discussions with many of them. I've done some of my own reading in the Bible and history/theology books. And, of course, I know the musical Jesus Christ Superstar by heart. (In fact, I've always found that one of the most moving and appealing versions of the Jesus story. I find him very sympathetic in that version.)

 

I've also taught religious education at various Unitarian-Universalist churches over the years and have done research in order to present information to my students. In fact, I'm assisting in my son's classroom this academic year, and we're studying the Bible. So, a lot of this is pretty fresh in my mind.

 

2) will you specifically name something that you admire/appreciate? I guess I am assuming that if you admire the teaching of someone you believe that specific "lesson" to be good and true.

 

I think the things I love most about Jesus are the "turn the other cheek" and "love everyone" ideals. I think he was kind of a radical in breaking down barriers between people and classes. The parable of the Good Samaritan is one of my favorites, because I read it as approving of love and care for everyone with whom one shares the world, regardless of the differences one might see on the surface.

 

Second, the reason Jesus was condemned to die on the cross was because he claimed to be God. Is it possible to admire someone for part of their teachings and at the same time believe they are lying about another teaching?

 

I have never thought that Jesus was lying. He may have been wrong. He may have been speaking metaphorically. He may have been misunderstood. I don't know. Honestly, I don't carry all of the text in my head, but I kind of thought that Jesus didn't actually say he was God? Most of the historical stuff I've read suggests he was executed because he was causing trouble politically, not because of his religious views?

 

However, since I don't worry about living my life by a literal interpretation of the Bible, I don't go around worrying about it.

 

And, yes, I believe it is possible to admire the good things about a person while understanding that he or she doesn't get everything right.

 

Third, I am not trying to convert anyone!

 

And I'm sure we all appreciate that!

Edited April 11, 2009 by Jenny in Florida

[Jenny in Florida]

Unfortunately, I don't think what we have today is what he had in mind (and I certainly don't think the crusades were what he had in mind either.) I would say I am more impressed with him as a person than I am with what people have done in his name over the last 2000 years or so.

 

I tend to agree.

[Jenny in Florida]

If I have a novel in me, it will be about a small child who asks his/her mother where she came from and receives the answer, "You came from God," and takes it literally. Been toying with it for a few years.

 

Oh, dear. At the risk of making everyone REALLY angry: Life of Brian, anyone?

[Haiku]

Good food. The best "praise music". And some interesting sacraments ;)

 

 

Don't forget the rockin' hair.

 

I'll bite. I admire Jesus. He has a place in my religion. I get my information on him from the Bible, from my time spent in a church youth group as a teen (when I dated a PK), from historical records/secondary source history material, from conversations with Christian religious leaders/friends, and from my husband, who was Catholic from birth to age 20 (and went through Catholic school all the way through his BFA).

 

I'm not convinced that Jesus was one person. I'm not convinced that he wasn't one person, but I find it entirely plausible that the stories about Jesus are a conglomeration of stories about various wandering mystics of the Biblical age. I take that tack with stories about the saints of my religious tradition, too. It doesn't make the lessons less meaningful or inspiring. The message is the same.

 

What, specifically, do I admire about Jesus? Well, an emphasis on service to others, a willingness to reach out to the underdogs/society's outcasts, the message of love, and his desire to do what he believed to be right even in the face of opposition.

 

Do I believe he was the son of any god? No. But I still feel that I can accept his emphasis on love and compassion without believing that he was supernatural in any way.

 

Tara

[KidsHappen]

Ducking tomoatoes, boos, hissing and maybe even tarring and feathering here. I am not one of the people that says I admire Jesus and the main reason for that is that I do not believe that Jesus was an actual historical person. And that is only the beginning of my problems with Christianity.

 

I was raised in the Babtist church which is about as evangical as you can get. And I have done tons of research and reading about Jesus and CHristianity from just about every point of view that you can imagine, including: the belief that he was an actual historical person but not really the son of God, that his message was misunderstood and or garbled by others, that he is a conglomeration of all previous son of God stories, etc. I could actually write a book on all the different theories and ideas that I have read over time but it would very difficult to distill and post them here. I can provide a list of many the different titles and a short synopsis of their thesis but it will have to wait until morning soccer.

 

And yes, I can like, admire and respect Christians even though I don;t agree with their interpretation of Jesus. I do not think that they are lying. I believe that are sincere in their beliefs so even if Jesus was a historical person I can easily see how he could believe something that I do not neccesarily believe and still be an admirable person.

Edited April 11, 2009 by KidsHappen

[nmoira]

Oh, dear. At the risk of making everyone REALLY angry: Life of Brian, anyone?

:D

[kaylk in tx]

Oh, dear. At the risk of making everyone REALLY angry: Life of Brian, anyone?

 

Always look on the briiiiight side of life...ta dum ta dum ta dum ta dum

 

:lol:

[Greta]

First, I keep thinking about non-Christians who say they admire or appreciate certain things about Jesus. If you are such a person

 

I am. I think most if not all of the world's religions have something worth admiring in them. I have found Buddhism and Christianity to be the most important ones in my life, though I wouldn't label myself "Christian" or even "Buddhist" any more for that matter. I'm kind of in a state of flux right now. :)

 

1) I would like to know where you get your information about Jesus (history books, the Bible, other?)

 

Primarily the Canonical Gospels. I've read the Gnostic Gospels too but can't really claim to understand them. ;)

 

2) will you specifically name something that you admire/appreciate? I guess I am assuming that if you admire the teaching of someone you believe that specific "lesson" to be good and true.

 

The Sermon on the Mount. (all of it)

 

Matthew 6:25-34 has been particularly meaningful to me lately.

 

And any man who can forgive those nailing him to a cross is clearly on a different plane of existence than most of us.

 

Second, the reason Jesus was condemned to die on the cross was because he claimed to be God. Is it possible to admire someone for part of their teachings and at the same time believe they are lying about another teaching?

 

Saying this as respectfully as possible, I do not believe that Jesus made any such claim. I believe this teaching was invented after his death. When I read the Gospels, what I see is a man who claimed to be of one mind and purpose with God, but not to be God in a literal sense. He prayed frequently. Who does God pray to? Also, memory is failing me as to the specifics at the moment, but I recall one scripture when his followers asked him a question and he said that the Father had not yet revealed the answer to him. So I have a hard time accepting the notion that Jesus believed himself to be God.

 

Third, I am not trying to convert anyone!

 

I love these kinds of discussions! Having to explain one's pov really forces a re-examination. And that's a good thing. :001_smile:

[KarenNC]

1) I would like to know where you get your information about Jesus (history books, the Bible, other?),

 

Thirty years of intense study attempting to convince myself that I could be a Christian (didn't work). Raised in very Calvinist home, in church every time the doors opened plus an hour of family devotionals/Bible study every night. Family switched to Assembly of God church when I was in my late teens, similar level of involvement. College religion courses. After my break with AoG over theological and social issues in early 20s, close to a decade of intense involvement in the Episcopal Church including a few years of studying in a small group with a priest for lay ministry using materials from an Episcopal seminary. Continued independent reading over the past decade or so since I broke connections with the Christian Church as I realized I simply could not force myself to truly believe the core teachings and had not been able to since I was at most 10 years old.

 

2) will you specifically name something that you admire/appreciate? I guess I am assuming that if you admire the teaching of someone you believe that specific "lesson" to be good and true.

 

More about Christianity than about Jesus per se as I don't think we can really know much about the actual details of his life. I admire the teachings of caring for others who are less fortunate. I love the liturgy, particularly high church Episcopal (in part because I love the pageantry of the European Middle Ages :)). Gregorian chant rocks :D!

 

Is it possible to admire someone for part of their teachings and at the same time believe they are lying about another teaching?

 

I can certainly admire some things that a person says/does and not others. I greatly admire much about Thomas Jefferson, but I don't admire that he kept slaves or his relationship to those slaves, for instance. I admire the teachings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr on the subject of civil rights and racial equality, but I don't admire his sexual infidelity.

 

As to claims for divinity, there are many schools of thought on that which have already been addressed. Even if Jesus were indeed a God, as a polytheist, I have no quarrel with that--he is simply not one of my Gods, despite my best efforts. Again, as a polytheist, my spiritual experiences do not lead me to believe that there *is* only one God. As to claims that he was the Jewish Messiah, no, from what I have seen, he would fall into the category of "failed messiah" as many others have done over the centuries because he quite clearly failed to meet the requirements of a messiah as laid out in Jewish law and teachings.

[SherryTX]

I agree.

 

And whenever someone starts quoting biblical passages at me (and I've never had that happen from a Catholic) I simply think to myself "does this person know that the Roman Catholic Church wrote the bible?"

 

 

asta

 

Ahh..if you want to say the put the canon together sure. (Unfortunately, they left out the fun books) But they didn't write it. And, really, shouldn't more Catholics be able to quote the bible? I really think anyone that studies it - especially if they believe it should be able to quote it now and then when brining up points.

[SherryTX]

Oh, dear. At the risk of making everyone REALLY angry: Life of Brian, anyone?

 

THAT is a great movie hahah!

[Peek a Boo]

(I am thinking specifically of the Apostle Paul here - I think he added a lot of things that Jesus didn't even hint at, such as man's submission of woman, etc. Seriously, without the women in Jesus' life, I don't think the religion would have gotten anywhere it is today.)

 

men AND women are told to submit to each other. It is just as important for men to submit to their wives as it is for wives to submit to their husbands. The extra part about wives submitting to their husbands was a protection for them: to keep other "good christian men" from asserting that all women needed to submit to ALL men. It looks like Paul was trying to clarify a gross interpretation ;)

-----------------------------------------

I tend to agree w/ Pamela H, and will add that even if I didn't, I can see how you can reasonably pick and choose what to admire, like KarenC mentioned.

 

other than that, this thread doesn't really apply to me :D

It is neat to read the responses tho.

[Marylou]

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond . I appreciate all of your answers and read them all.

 

My favorite quote is from Greta . . .

 

 

 

 

And any man who can forgive those nailing him to a cross is clearly on a different plane of existence than most of us.

 

 

Hmmm. . . :iagree:

 

Have a great day tomorrow whatever your religion :001_smile: !

[JennifersLost]

I get my info about Jesus from the Bible, from literature, from osmosis....

 

I admire Jesus because he hung out and accepted all kinds of people - especially those shunned by everyone else - and saw what was good in them and that they were worthy of divine attention.

 

I admire him because he stood up to the powers that be and wasn't afraid to be a radical.

 

I don't think Jesus ever claimed to be God. I believe that part was added in later. I believe Jesus' message was that we are ALL the children of God - every last one of us, even the lepers, the prostitutes, the poor, the lame, etc.

 

I believe this message was too radical for people to really grasp at the time, so it all got twisted.

[dragons in the flower bed]

First, I keep thinking about non-Christians who say they admire or appreciate certain things about Jesus. If you are such a person 1) I would like to know where you get your information about Jesus (history books, the Bible, other?),

 

One of the things that serves to keep me out of these debates is that I don't remember where I got all of my information from. I was part of five Bible or related study groups: an Orthodox Jewish one, a Messianic Jewish, a Southern Baptist, one Brethren, and one that was just a bunch of Biblically-minded homeschool moms with an interest in Hebrew, Greek & archaeology. In that last, we followed the news and brought stuff in to the weekly meetings to share while our kids built with K'nex in the next room. (Yes. Bible study was my whole life.) There's no way I could track down those sources. For a year, I never went anywhere without my Vine's, Strong's, and interlinears. My husband had a PDA w/ the Talmud on it and a feature that lets you compare translations of the Bible. So, pretty much my information comes from the primary source documents, at least, as much as was possible in AD 2000-03.

 

and 2) will you specifically name something that you admire/appreciate? I guess I am assuming that if you admire the teaching of someone you believe that specific "lesson" to be good and true.

 

Well, I would use the word wise, not true. But probably my favorite sayings attributed to Jesus are:

 

Matthew 5:40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also."

Mathew 5:46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?"

John 8:76 "But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

 

Those three sayings best reflect the ideal I hold for the ethics of my interpersonal relationships. But, you know, everyone says brilliant things, especially those amongst us who have been quoted over and over. We tend to get more brilliant over the centuries. :tongue_smilie: And Jesus wasn't speaking from a historical vacuum. He was living in a dreamy time and place for anyone who wanted to talk wisely, with religious and ethical scholars converging and debating like they never had before.

 

Second, the reason Jesus was condemned to die on the cross was because he claimed to be God. Is it possible to admire someone for part of their teachings and at the same time believe they are lying about another teaching?

 

Of course it is! Think of your husband. :D I think this is especially possible when that person may not have really existed. In other words, it may not be him who was lying in another teaching.

 

But even if we do have sufficient reason to believe that yes, what the Gospels say happened, happened, I would have no problem agreeing with parts of what Jesus or Yod Hey Vav Hey says and still thinking the rest of what He says is not worth obeying. I can't think of any reason why it is impossible for someone to be a liar and a truthteller, a lunatic and a miracle worker all at the same time. I mean, look around you. People are pretty darn inconsistent. So are gods. Why would I believe One who comes along and says, "Oh, no, really, I am infallible, trust me, and if you don't you're doomed for eternity"?

Edited April 12, 2009 by dragons in the flower bed

[Scarlett]

I get my info about Jesus from the Bible, from literature, from osmosis....

 

I admire Jesus because he hung out and accepted all kinds of people - especially those shunned by everyone else - and saw what was good in them and that they were worthy of divine attention.

 

 

I'm wondering what you mean by 'accepted' all kinds of people. He certainly preached to all kind. He forgave all kinds. But he didn't accept sin. He offered forgiveness and said, 'sin no more.' It seems to me, these days, the PC position is to say there is no right or wrong. Jesus was very much about 'right and wrong.'

[LadyAberlin]

Well here is a question to answer the question about how one can admire Jesus and not agree with all he said.

 

Do you admire Martin Luther? Most Protestants do. Do you realize that he wrote something called On Jews and their Lies? It was one of the influential documents that Hitler used to create the Holocaust. He followed what Luther wrote. So he is admired for some things. So i think if Luther can be admired for the good things he did and forgiven for some pretty horrendous writings, I think Jesus could be admired for things he taught and be forgiven for thinking he is God, especially since he was never advocating hurting anyone like Luther was.

[Melinda in VT]

I'm wondering what you mean by 'accepted' all kinds of people. He certainly preached to all kind. He forgave all kinds. But he didn't accept sin. He offered forgiveness and said, 'sin no more.' It seems to me, these days, the PC position is to say there is no right or wrong. Jesus was very much about 'right and wrong.'

 

Jesus associated with people who were considered unclean by the devout people of his time. His denouncing of sin didn't extend to shunning the people who were sinning.

[Scarlett]

Jesus associated with people who were considered unclean by the devout people of his time. His denouncing of sin didn't extend to shunning the people who were sinning.

 

Ah. I see. That word acceptance makes me bristle at times...but your above description is how I would see it as well. Thank you for straightening me out.