School shooting at Apalachee High School in Georgia

[Heartstrings]

34 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I will say that schools with spread out campuses and lots of buildings (I remember Florida schools being like this) would have to completely revamp their campuses in some way.

We revamped a lot after 9/11.  Set up security where it had never been before, in places not necessarily designed for it.  It could be done if there was a desire.  
 

I don’t like the idea of kids going to school in prisons like environments.  But I’m at the point where I’m not sure the trauma of being sitting ducks is better. I’m sure going to school in a more prison like environment is better than experiencing a shooting though. 
 

 

[KSera]

 

9 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Even if every new gun had biometrics there would still be 100s of millions of guns in circulation.  I’m not really sure biometrics solves as much of the problem as people think.  

I don’t think we can at all go about this by deciding not to put new measures in place because there are already so d@mn many guns out there already. We start where we are and make it better. A lot of shootings are perpetrated by people who bought the weapon to commit the crime. Those would be deterred my new measures enacted now. I would love to see big buybacks like Australia did. Over time, we could get more and more guns out of circulation. If there was the will to do so. 

2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Apparently some people in Chicago know how to do it!

I think city schools are more likely to have compact campuses with fewer entrances. I don’t know how it would work with the schools with lots of separate buildings. We have lots of those. 

39 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

We revamped a lot after 9/11.  Set up security where it had never been before, in places not necessarily designed for it.  It could be done if there was a desire.  

True, but by the same token, if there were desire, we could get common sense gun laws in every state. I realize gun owners want to talk about hardening schools and armed security guards and all that rather than trying to keep guns out of kids’ hands, but it seems ridiculous to me that we would rebuild schools to reduce shootings while doing nothing about the gun problem that impacts not just schools, but all of society.

 

[Heartstrings]

6 hours ago, KSera said:

I don’t think we can at all go about this by deciding not to put new measures in place because there are already so d@mn many guns out there already

I didn’t say we shouldn’t bother, I said it wasn’t the slam dunk fix all it seems some people think it is.  

6 hours ago, KSera said:

think city schools are more likely to have compact campuses with fewer entrances. I don’t know how it would work with the schools with lots of separate buildings. We have lots of those

Have you ever been to a fair ground or water park?  Fencing around the perimeter, controlled entrance through one or two points.  No one has a problem when it’s to make sure people pay before entering, usually after having a bag hand checked for weapons and outside food.  It’s not “like jail” when it’s capitalism.  

Edited September 7 by Heartstrings

[Heartstrings]

6 hours ago, KSera said:

True, but by the same token, if there were desire, we could get common sense gun laws in every state. I realize gun owners want to talk about hardening schools and armed security guards and all that rather than trying to keep guns out of kids’ hands, but it seems ridiculous to me that we would rebuild schools to reduce shootings while doing nothing about the gun problem that impacts not just schools, but all of society.

I think you misunderstand, or maybe it’s just frustration.  I’m not saying I think fixing schools is better than dealing with guns.  I just think it’s an easier lift.  The Supreme Court won’t over rule my decision to fix the school. I can’t wave a wand and have sensible gun rules.   Even if I magic sensible gun rules in my state, the guns come from other states.  Comparatively, it’s pretty darn easy to build a fence and buy mental detectors.  

Realistically the Overton window on guns is wasaay over here on the right at “not even gonna fix background checks”.   It’s going to be decades to swing it to Australia level buy backs.  Meanwhile we have a school shouting every few days while we work on it.  

Right now we have “not my guns” on one side with “only solutions involving the guns” on the other with dead kids in the middle because no one wants to budge. No one is saying build a fence and go home.  Keep trying for gun changes but let’s protect some kids in the meantime. 

Edited September 7 by Heartstrings

[73349]

I would encourage folks not to overestimate a SRO's ability to monitor the halls. I went to a PS with only a thousand students, and it was two buildings with a total of seven floors, six of which had lockers (and the other gym lockers), four of them with multiple hallways. High schools now are built for 2000-2500 students. Having two SROs in the building is not going to keep someone from retrieving a weapon; better that the weapon is excluded from the campus in the first place.

[Terabith]

9 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

We revamped a lot after 9/11.  Set up security where it had never been before, in places not necessarily designed for it.  It could be done if there was a desire.  
 

I don’t like the idea of kids going to school in prisons like environments.  But I’m at the point where I’m not sure the trauma of being sitting ducks is better. I’m sure going to school in a more prison like environment is better than experiencing a shooting though. 
 

 

We did revamp a lot after 9/11. But importantly, nothing we did made us SAFER.  We made things more inconvenient for everyone while playing at security theater.  And that is precisely what would happen in schools, too.  
 

The only thing that would make schools and everywhere else much safer would be reducing access to guns.  

[Sneezyone]

16 hours ago, TechWife said:

There are a host of other instances when they cannot give informed consent. When kids give testimony under oath, it is customary for them to have a guardian ad litem that looks out for their interests (at least here it is). When they themselves are parents, its another thing entirely. In some states they become emancipated minors (with the privileges & responsibilities of an adult), in some states they don't.

It is your prerogative to talk. It is your prerogative to allow your kids to talk to the press. I would hope you wouldn't do so in a state of shock, nor allow your kid to do it in a state of shock. If you do, I hope there's someone there to look out for your interests when you cannot.

ETA: I don't think people should never talk, I think that making what are essentially deathbed declarations public the day of the shooting is exploitative and unethical. I cannot imagine any scenario (though I'm not a doctor) where the kids who sent those texts were not in shock and remained in shock for a period of time longer than the few hours it took those text messages to hit the news. The thing about shock is that people who are in shock often don't realize it and try to carry on as usual.

There is also an established precedent of lifting the curtain on horrific abuses to expose what many would rather not acknowledge about what’s really happening, see Mamie Till Mobley.  Shocking people out of complacency is also a valid way to move and operate in this space and I pray no one ever ‘protects’ me from the desire to be the change I seek.

Edited September 7 by Sneezyone

[TechWife]

9 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

There is also an established precedent of lifting the curtain on horrific abuses to expose what many would rather not acknowledge about what’s really happening, see Mamie Till Mobley.  Shocking people out of complacency is also a valid way to move and operate in this space and I pray no one ever ‘protects’ me from the desire to be the change I seek.

The right time, the right place is all I’m saying. 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

The right time, the right place is all I’m saying. 

There isn’t one tho. It’s no different from prior calls not to ‘politicize’ these tragedies. Those are delay and diversion tactics. There’s no time/distance from these crimes because they happen with regularity, so much so that those involved are never trauma free and regularly triggered.

Edited September 7 by Sneezyone

[Dmmetler]

46 minutes ago, Terabith said:

We did revamp a lot after 9/11. But importantly, nothing we did made us SAFER.  We made things more inconvenient for everyone while playing at security theater.  And that is precisely what would happen in schools, too.  
 

The only thing that would make schools and everywhere else much safer would be reducing access to guns.  

I'm not sure that I agree because the metal detectors, secured perimeter came into urban districts for secondary schools before 9/11, and it DID reduce weapons on campus. The reason was different (not to protect against intruders, but against gang violence), but it worked to make the school grounds much more neutral ground, "a if ya'll are gonna do that, don't do it here" space. 

 

I want a lot fewer guns in the world. Australia's rules seem pretty reasonable to me. But until then, I also would appreciate knowing that the parent sitting opposite of me at an IEP isn't packing heat, which, in a state with permitless carry, can never be assumed UNLESS you're in a place with metal detectors and bag X-rays. And I DEFINITELY don't like my state's solution, which is to let teachers carry (but not provide secure storage) with the idea that if there's a shooter, Ms James the kindergarten teacher can take him out and then go right back to reading "It's not easy being a bunny". 

[Dmmetler]

And here's why we need this in ALL schools, not just high schools. This could have ended SO badly....

 

https://www.wbbjtv.com/2024/09/06/police-say-they-arrested-a-woman-after-her-6-year-old-son-brought-a-gun-to-school-in-memphis/

[KSera]

22 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I'm not sure that I agree because the metal detectors, secured perimeter came into urban districts for secondary schools before 9/11, and it DID reduce weapons on campus.

 

3 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Have you ever been to a fair ground or water park?  Fencing around the perimeter, controlled entrance through one or two points.

I’m curious to learn more about how they implement this in schools. I’ve been looking for information on how it works at secured perimeter schools, but so far haven’t found any details. I have read many interesting articles in the process. NPR has done several in the last couple years. 
With gun control far from sight, schools redesign for student safety

What research says about preventing school shootings

Gun violence is remaking America’s classrooms

This one addresses another aspect of this conversation:

If a Threat Is Not a Crime, Can the Police Prevent a School Shooting?

I’m still interested in the logistics of perimeters for schools particularly, so I’ll keep looking,  but if anyone has any links, I’d read them. 
 

I do think frustration is part of my response. I think I feel like it’s pandering to the gun lobby and those who have been brainwashed by them to decide to take up their talking points rather than putting more focus on the real problem. I mean yes, make schools safer however we can, but our shooting problem isn’t caused by lack of fences. We’re not going to solve it that way either. 
 

[TechWife]

16 hours ago, Hilltopmom said:

It is Not unusual. We have so many children in DIRE need of mental health services.

…

Using this as a jumping off point. 
I agree that there is a critical shortage of mental health services of all types. 
I do wonder, though, whether or not some of this is normal development given a child’s particular environment. In other words, could the child be making logical conclusions based upon what they have been taught, observed, and heard? Can they actually believe they are doing the right thing given what they know? If they have been raised hearing violent discussions and justifications for violence, that becomes their “normal” frame of reference. I guess this is partly the age-old nature v. nurture conversation. I do think it’s worth considering and yes, it opens an entirely new can of worms re: free speech, parental rights, child welfare (where welfare = the original meaning of well being) and probably much more.

It also brings up another thread we’ve had in an attempt to discuss cultural norms and cultural preservation. We didn’t get very far, but instead were derailed by a discussion on preserving sub cultures. So, gun culture is a sub culture that some want to preserve and others don’t. The one sub culture is greatly impacting the larger culture that is a blend of thousands of other sub cultures. Cultures and subcultures need to have guardrails that prevent harm, including to others within their subculture, like children who grow up with views that are harmful, which again brings us back to parental rights, freedom of speech and child welfare.

At some point, multiple subcultures have to get together for the “common good” that they share. This may lead to some changes within the subcultures, but in many ways cultures are fluent by nature. A subculture adopting a way of “being” in order to benefit people in another subculture is part of coming together. Does this mean we can force changes on subcultures? To what extent? Is a subculture “entitled” to exist, for lack of a better term?

I really think that unless we get better at having a common understanding of what is “good” for people to flourish and are willing to prioritize that flourishing for everyone, then we are going to continue, and even accelerate, cultural fragmentation. 

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

There isn’t one tho. It’s no different from prior calls not to ‘politicize’ these tragedies. Those are delay and diversion tactics. There’s no time/distance from these crimes because they happen with regularity, so much so that those involved are never trauma free and regularly triggered.

A state of shock doesn’t last forever. That’s all I’m saying. Don’t take advantage of these highly personal public disclosures made in a state of shock. Try not to make those disclosures , if you’re around a friend, try to be a level voice of guidance. I’m talking about the death bed declaration, not awareness and advocacy. There are multiple avenues for those, both immediately and long term. No doubt we need to look at creating additional avenues, but those avenues should not include exploitation of highly personal information obtained under a state of shock, when the capacity to process information & have full situational awareness is extremely limited. Text messages can be released when people can make more self-aware and informed decisions. 

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

I do think frustration is part of my response. I think I feel like it’s pandering to the gun lobby and those who have been brainwashed by them to decide to take up their talking points rather than putting more focus on the real problem. I mean yes, make schools safer however we can, but our shooting problem isn’t caused by lack of fences. We’re not going to solve it that way either.

I’m not giving into the gun lobby nor have I been brainwashed.  I’m just aware enough to know that it might be a decades long fight.  It took republicans 50 years to over turn Roe.  It might take us 50 years to get gun laws changed to something more reasonable. It’s a worthy fight.  A fight we are not guaranteed to win.  I would just like to have as few dead kids as possible while we fight this out.  

It’s not pandering to acknowledge that your opponent has thus far won ALL of the battles.  It’s not giving up to say we should build up reinforcements while we prepare to continue the war.  

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

A state of shock doesn’t last forever. That’s all I’m saying. Don’t take advantage of these highly personal public disclosures made in a state of shock. Try not to make those disclosures , if you’re around a friend, try to be a level voice of guidance. I’m talking about the death bed declaration, not awareness and advocacy. There are multiple avenues for those, both immediately and long term. No doubt we need to look at creating additional avenues, but those avenues should not include exploitation of highly personal information obtained under a state of shock, when the capacity to process information & have full situational awareness is extremely limited. Text messages can be released when people can make more self-aware and informed decisions. 

I hear you. I just don’t think it’s safe to assume all of these posts-interviews are made by people in shock and, assuming they all are, that they haven’t had prior conversations as families about how they would like each other to respond/react/advocate.  There have been far too many of these for us not to have discussed what ifs with our older kids especially.

[Murphy101]

20 hours ago, Annie G said:

Channel 11 is reporting threats have also been made in Clarke, Bartow, and Franklin counties, with several students identified and arrested. One student admitted to posting a threat on social media and said he thought it was funny.  Gwinnett schools/police are sifting through nearly 300 social media threats. 300.  

This is why I commented about the borg expectations.

I am not surprised by those numbers. I genuinely wish I was.  But I’m not.  But the staff to handle that threat just has not grown as quickly as need of social expectation to handle it immediately.   It just hasn’t.  I don’t think this is a problem in that area either. I think it’s a nation-wide problem and the numbers are never shared bc it would at least temporarily terrify everyone until they just accepted it as the new normal our nation has collectively decided to live with.

And it’s important to remember. And I cannot stress that FBI comment from a previous post strongly enough:

Of those 300 there’s “only” been one mass shooting so far. Only is not at all to downplay that trauma. 

The job of the LEO is not to determine who made threats, but who IS a threat. And obviously 300 were not all actual threats. But that’s a tricky time-consuming process that will always and forever be slower than bullets and not as accurate as hindsight.

And while we can say no one should ever find it funny to say something like that, morbid humor in tough times/situations is a real and valid response of nearly all humans. It’s not going to go away anytime soon.

We have got to address that the social experiment of how student lives play out in schools is not healthy for them and change many things. The observation that most schools are more similar to prisons than a genuinely safe learning environment has been made for decades and it is well past time we admit it isn’t working. The kids are not graduating one bit better educated for it but they are graduating on record rates of antidepressants and other medications and more suicidal. (And I’m not against meds. I’m against creating a need for the meds.)

And we have got to address the simple math fact that bullets are faster than people and more damaging than most any other common weapon option. Could he have gone and knifed people? Yep. But it would not have been so easy though. Let’s at least not make it easy.

There is a LOT of violence in classrooms. Even in kindergartens. Growing up I never remember ever anyone getting suspended from kindergarten. And a kid being physically in danger in kindergarten was not the norm usually even in “bad” schools. Now I hear all the time about it.  Weekly. And it’s not even a little bit newsworthy.  But teachers and parents talk. And it’s grim. While it’s great that teachers can quit or change professions and some parents call pull their kids - the majority of students can’t change their situation. And hell yes I’d be full of rage by the teen years if I were them too. The same BS coping demanded of them to get by for years explodes eventually. 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

nor have I been brainwashed.

I’m not saying you in that statement, I’m referring to the people who support all the gun lobbies anti-gun control talking points because they think those things are in their own best interest rather than realizing those things are for the sake of profits for gun companies and are making their own lives more dangerous. 

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, TechWife said:

A state of shock doesn’t last forever. That’s all I’m saying.

I disagree. The shock is just the start of their new normal. Bc every day they hear about another shooting the shock never really goes, it’s just the new normal. It’s not like they can tell themselves oh this was a freak accident and not likely to ever happen again. That’s the kind of shock that doesn’t last for ever.  But this? This is like saying the shock of living in a war zone doesn’t last forever. It’s true that when they LEAVE the war zone the shock can eventually be left too. But for many families they are stuck in that war zone for many years still. Will they send their other children to school? That school? Another school? Go to church? Go to the grocery store? It’s a free for all of choices for death by guns these days so where are they ever going to feel safe and not in shock again? 😅

3 hours ago, TechWife said:

Don’t take advantage of these highly personal public disclosures made in a state of shock. Try not to make those disclosures , if you’re around a friend, try to be a level voice of guidance. I’m talking about the death bed declaration, not awareness and advocacy. There are multiple avenues for those, both immediately and long term. No doubt we need to look at creating additional avenues, but those avenues should not include exploitation of highly personal information obtained under a state of shock, when the capacity to process information & have full situational awareness is extremely limited. Text messages can be released when people can make more self-aware and informed decisions. 

Here is what I think. I think reporters should be on the site of the news but not allowed to show faces or names of anyone at all at the site unless those people step up and ask to talk to them. I’d be okay with that.  Let them share their pain publicly if they want. Give them the chance to make that choice for themselves. Blur all faces unless they say they are okay with it. Same for names. Don’t go putting microphones in their sobbing faces.  But do state that anyone who wants to talk can come up to the reporters. 

Edited September 7 by Murphy101

[Hilltopmom]

7 hours ago, 73349 said:

I would encourage folks not to overestimate a SRO's ability to monitor the halls. I went to a PS with only a thousand students, and it was two buildings with a total of seven floors, six of which had lockers (and the other gym lockers), four of them with multiple hallways. High schools now are built for 2000-2500 students. Having two SROs in the building is not going to keep someone from retrieving a weapon; better that the weapon is excluded from the campus in the first place.

Also people don’t realize that many schools don’t have SROs. We just got one after being without for several years due to the sheriffs office not having extra staff to man the SRO position. But it’s one SRO for an entire district of 4 buildings spread over 10 miles. So part time in each building a few hours a week.

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

…

We have got to address that the social experiment of how student lives play out in schools is not healthy for them and change many things. The observation that most schools are more similar to prisons than a genuinely safe learning environment has been made for decades and it is well past time we admit it isn’t working. The kids are not graduating one bit better educated for it but they are graduating on record rates of antidepressants and other medications and more suicidal. (And I’m not against meds. I’m against creating a need for the meds.)

And we have got to address the simple math fact that bullets are faster than people and more damaging than most any other common weapon option. Could he have gone and knifed people? Yep. But it would not have been so easy though. Let’s at least not make it easy.

There is a LOT of violence in classrooms. Even in kindergartens. Growing up I never remember ever anyone getting suspended from kindergarten. And a kid being physically in danger in kindergarten was not the norm usually even in “bad” schools. Now I hear all the time about it.  Weekly. And it’s not even a little bit newsworthy.  But teachers and parents talk. And it’s grim. While it’s great that teachers can quit or change professions and some parents call pull their kids - the majority of students can’t change their situation. And hell yes I’d be full of rage by the teen years if I were them too. The same BS coping demanded of them to get by for years explodes eventually. 

I agree with of this.

The current school culture isn’t beneficial to children. When I think about it, it’s no wonder people don’t know how to act when they get to college - their school environment is highly controlled up to that point.

Ditto on the need to control the method.

That these issues begin in kindergarten, and even younger, is perhaps related to the subcultures kids are exposed to, IDK. Of course, the educational environment is one of those subcultures as well, which brings me right back to your social experiment observation. 

Edited September 7 by TechWife

[Dmmetler]

For a couple of years, when they were trying to get funding for and then build a new police substation in the neighborhood I taught in, the principal opened up a room on the end of the building that had an outside entrance as a dispatching station for the local police (same guy also opened up space for a health NP to have a satellite office-we were an elementary school in a former high school and had extra room-I actually had TWO music rooms-one with chairs and stands, one with floor space and carpets for movement)-and I wish schools would do that more. Because we always had several LEOs in the building, they ate in the cafeteria, played basketball in the gym, parents could easily pass on concerns (like "I think my neighbor might be making meth"), the police knew the kids by name and vice-versa, etc. 

 

It's not a small change-most campuses don't have the space, but making neighborhood schools the place police go to wait for a call might be a good start. 

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

It's not a small change-most campuses don't have the space, but making neighborhood schools the place police go to wait for a call might be a good start. 

We lived in kind of a rough small city and the police had a station in the local Walmart to deter shop lifters and other rowdiness.  Putting them in the school is a good idea.   

[Pawz4me]

WaPo is reporting that the boy's mother called the school shortly before the shooting (there shouldn't be a paywall for that article)

[Faith-manor]

49 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

We lived in kind of a rough small city and the police had a station in the local Walmart to deter shop lifters and other rowdiness.  Putting them in the school is a good idea.   

Locally, in the county seat city police responded to a phone call about elementary aged children being bullied by older kids while waiting for the building to open (a building that housed K-6 but next to the 7-12 building) before school. Officers decided to patrol there the next morning, saw a couple young ones being pushed around and slapped by middle schoolers, intervened, and decided that everyday they would come and stand out on the side walks with the children, direct traffic, and see what was what. Eventually they started tossing a ball around, playing a little basketball, etc. with any of the kids who were interested. It ended the bullying. They gave their cards to kids and told them to call if they were ever scared. It is now just a normal, routine thing for city police officers to take turn hanging out with the kids in the morning. I have a feeling that this is a big deterrent for anyone thinking of smuggling a gun into school.

Community policing needs to be a thing. It won't solve a lot of problems, but is a place to start. But this means moving resources into this instead of road patrol or in addition. More resources. More police training. More social workers.

That said, I am just fine with all the hand guns and assault rifles becoming illegal, and funding buy backs. I am so done with 2E.

[bolt.]

I'm of two minds about police presence in schools.

On the one hand, everything said about the kinds of healthy interactive, respectful and child-and-teen friendly types of scenarios sound wonderful. I'm very much inclined personally to believe in the idea that police are my friends, and they are here to help. That has always been my experience.

On the other hand, when we listen to the experiences of people of colour and folks from disadvantaged backgrounds, I've been hearing loud and clear from those communities in the last few years (since I started been paying attention) that the police are neither helpful nor safe in the realities of their experiences.

Maybe cops are respectful and kind -- like the ones who have helped me out, and the ones on TV. Maybe cops are racist bullies with guns who terrify people and get away with all kinds of crap. Maybe there are some of each. Maybe they are all two-faced and just know how to perform for an audience when they need to. Maybe they are lovely with little kids, but how are they with teens and young adults when their instincts and fears about criminality and danger begin to kick in?

But I do hear a large community asking for less policing and more effective services instead. So I'm really hesitant about 'more policing' being a proposed answer to this complex and dangerous situation.

[Ting Tang]

16 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I'm of two minds about police presence in schools.

On the one hand, everything said about the kinds of healthy interactive, respectful and child-and-teen friendly types of scenarios sound wonderful. I'm very much inclined personally to believe in the idea that police are my friends, and they are here to help. That has always been my experience.

On the other hand, when we listen to the experiences of people of colour and folks from disadvantaged backgrounds, I've been hearing loud and clear from those communities in the last few years (since I started been paying attention) that the police are neither helpful nor safe in the realities of their experiences.

Maybe cops are respectful and kind -- like the ones who have helped me out, and the ones on TV. Maybe cops are racist bullies with guns who terrify people and get away with all kinds of crap. Maybe there are some of each. Maybe they are all two-faced and just know how to perform for an audience when they need to. Maybe they are lovely with little kids, but how are they with teens and young adults when their instincts and fears about criminality and danger begin to kick in?

But I do hear a large community asking for less policing and more effective services instead. So I'm really hesitant about 'more policing' being a proposed answer to this complex and dangerous situation.

High level security instead?  There's got to be a way without a 3.5 hour line to get into school. I understand one or two people can't be everywhere in a school, so I just think we need to secure the campuses.  No, it doesn't make bad parents into good parents or mentally unstable underground white male youth better, but at least you leave the building alive.  

 

[TechWife]

 

[Faith-manor]

And another shooting:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/07/us/kentucky-interstate-75-shooting/index.html

 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

WaPo is reporting that the boy's mother called the school shortly before the shooting (there shouldn't be a paywall for that article)

This is tragic. I’m not sure how I would handle this revelation if I were a family member of one of those killed. It’s like it just gets worse and worse. The number of failures. 
 

I’m still hoping someone might give some information about how controlled perimeters work logistically when a school has a sprawling campus. I’ve done a bunch of looking but the only thing I could find related to this was about Uvalde having perimeter fences up and having done all the other school security and hardening measures they did and yet it didn’t help anything. In a school designed this way, do the school buses stop inside the perimeter fence or are they outside the perimeter fence and then kids are somehow let in through a gate when they get off the school bus? Does this not cause a natural choking point when kids all arrive at the same time on school buses that would provide just as easy access as a classroom of kids? It seems an entirely different scenario than a fair or a waterpark since in the case of a school, the point of the fences would be to keep the kids safe inside them, rather than as a way to make sure people have paid before entering. In the latter case, it doesn’t matter if they have to wait in line to get through them, plus not everyone arrives exactly the same time.

I’m sure there’s a way that is intended to work, I just can’t find any information on how that usually goes. I’m sure someone here must have schools like this around them?

 

Edited September 8 by KSera
Typos

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

WaPo is reporting that the boy's mother called the school shortly before the shooting (there shouldn't be a paywall for that article)

It’s pay walled for me.  Was her call the one we were talking about as the threat call or a separate one?   

[KSera]

30 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

It’s pay walled for me.  Was her call the one we were talking about as the threat call or a separate one?   

Here’s a non-paywall version: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/mother-of-georgia-suspect-is-said-to-have-called-school-before-shooting-warning-of-emergency/ar-AA1qaTY2

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

WaPo is reporting that the boy's mother called the school shortly before the shooting (there shouldn't be a paywall for that article)

My God, it just gets worse and worse. There were SO MANY chances to prevent this, and every. single. time. someone dropped the ball. The aunt was telling people that he was having suicidal and homicidal thoughts in late August and should not have any access to guns, and the father did nothing to secure them? The mother called the school to explicitly tell them that her son was about to shoot the place up, and eventually a teacher went looking for Colt and "another kid with a similar name" — like that's not something you'd want to be real clear about??? And then when she found that both kids were missing, instead of initiating a lock down or finally calling police, she just picked up the backpack of the other kid, checked it, eventually found that kid, and sent him back to class... without bothering to look for the kid who had been gone for a long time and whose backpack was missing, who in fact was in the bathroom with an AR15 in his bag at that very moment????

The mother of the girl who first reported that a teacher had come to class looking for someone with a very similar name was on the news last night, and she was really angry that when she raised the issue with the sheriff during a press conference, he totally shut her down and said her information was wrong. She said she felt like he was calling her, and by extension her daughter, a liar, and she wanted answers. So I'm glad she has been vindicated by this report, but... damn. So many people screwed up so badly. 

[Heartstrings]

44 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

My God, it just gets worse and worse. There were SO MANY chances to prevent this, and every. single. time. someone dropped the ball. The aunt was telling people that he was having suicidal and homicidal thoughts in late August and should not have any access to guns, and the father did nothing to secure them? The mother called the school to explicitly tell them that her son was about to shoot the place up, and eventually a teacher went looking for Colt and "another kid with a similar name" — like that's not something you'd want to be real clear about??? And then when she found that both kids were missing, instead of initiating a lock down or finally calling police, she just picked up the backpack of the other kid, checked it, eventually found that kid, and sent him back to class... without bothering to look for the kid who had been gone for a long time and whose backpack was missing, who in fact was in the bathroom with an AR15 in his bag at that very moment????

The mother of the girl who first reported that a teacher had come to class looking for someone with a very similar name was on the news last night, and she was really angry that when she raised the issue with the sheriff during a press conference, he totally shut her down and said her information was wrong. She said she felt like he was calling her, and by extension her daughter, a liar, and she wanted answers. So I'm glad she has been vindicated by this report, but... damn. So many people screwed up so badly. 

They should have some of sift lockdown protocol that can go into effect.  All school should.   Just a “pause everything” kind of thing.  I understand we can’t cancel classes Edie every threat, but if 2nd period last an extra 20 minutes while we locate a shooting suspect I just have to think it’s going to be ok.  
 

 

[Heartstrings]

I’m still not clear if the mothers call was the same call where they were told “5 schools are getting shot up, your is first”.  

[Terabith]

9 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

They should have some of sift lockdown protocol that can go into effect.  All school should.   Just a “pause everything” kind of thing.  I understand we can’t cancel classes Edie every threat, but if 2nd period last an extra 20 minutes while we locate a shooting suspect I just have to think it’s going to be ok.  
 

 

Our schools do have several forms of lockdowns, one of which is continue what you're doing normally but nobody leaves the classroom/ make sure doors are locked.  There's another one that is classes can change but nobody can leave the building.  And of course there's the full lock down drill.  

[Heartstrings]

41 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Our schools do have several forms of lockdowns, one of which is continue what you're doing normally but nobody leaves the classroom/ make sure doors are locked.  There's another one that is classes can change but nobody can leave the building.  And of course there's the full lock down drill.  

I guess I’m unclear on why that wasn’t used in this case.  It seems like they were scrambling and not sure what to do.  It’s 2024, schools need to be practicing this part just as much as the active shooter part.  

[Hilltopmom]

7 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

They should have some of sift lockdown protocol that can go into effect.  All school should.   Just a “pause everything” kind of thing.  I understand we can’t cancel classes Edie every threat, but if 2nd period last an extra 20 minutes while we locate a shooting suspect I just have to think it’s going to be ok.  
 

 

There is- it’s called “ hold in place” or “shelter in place”. It’s less significant than a lockdown or lock out, but keeps everyone where they are. (Often used during medical emergencies or crisis calls when a student is being restrained for safety in a hallway, so that there is privacy and the halls are clear)

We use the “SHELL” protocol- for different scenarios

shelter

hold

evacuate

lockout

lockdown

 

Edited September 8 by Hilltopmom

[Heartstrings]

40 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

There is- it’s called “ hold in place” or “shelter in place”. It’s less significant than a lockdown or lock out, but keeps everyone where they are. (Often used during medical emergencies or crisis calls when a student is being restrained for safety in a hallway, so that there is privacy and the halls are clear)

We use the “SHELL” protocol- for different scenarios

shelter

hold

evacuate

lockout

lockdown

 

I think I just don’t understand why it wasn’t hard in this case.  This seems like the perfect place to use it.  It seems more like there was a few people in a panic in the minutes leading up to it. Maybe it’s just a fear response and they didn’t follow a protocol because they panicked, which is somewhat understandable.   You learn that stuff hoping you never use it.  From the outside it seems clear that this was the time for using a shelter or hold type scenario.  There seems to have been a lot of wasted minutes where they were scrambling.  
Im not blaming them for not thinking clearly while panicking.  Panic is human. 

[mommyoffive]

Just heard the report of his mom warning the school this morning.  Wow.  I cannot imagine how horrible these failures are to the families of the people killed.  Here, with the Crumbley shooting, and Ulvade.  That has to make their loss even harder to deal with because it never should have happened.  

When a mom calls and says her kid is about to shoot up the school and the only thing that happens is a teacher goes looking for the kid?  Um no.  No, no, no.  What the heck is the teacher going to do if she found the kid anyway?  

[Dmmetler]

12 hours ago, KSera said:

This is tragic. I’m not sure how I would handle this revelation if I were a family member of one of those killed. It’s like it just gets worse and worse. The number of failures. 
 

I’m still hoping someone might give some information about how controlled perimeters work logistically when a school has a sprawling campus. I’ve done a bunch of looking but the only thing I could find related to this was about Uvalde having perimeter fences up and having done all the other school security and hardening measures they did and yet it didn’t help anything. In a school designed this way, do the school buses stop inside the perimeter fence or are they outside the perimeter fence and then kids are somehow let in through a gate when they get off the school bus? Does this not cause a natural choking point when kids all arrive at the same time on school buses that would provide just as easy access as a classroom of kids? It seems an entirely different scenario than a fair or a waterpark since in the case of a school, the point of the fences would be to keep the kids safe inside them, rather than as a way to make sure people have paid before entering. In the latter case, it doesn’t matter if they have to wait in line to get through them, plus not everyone arrives exactly the same time.

I’m sure there’s a way that is intended to work, I just can’t find any information on how that usually goes. I’m sure someone here must have schools like this around them?

 

Our school campuses aren't nearly as spread out as in, say, FL, but here buses and kids who are dropped off (and, for high school kids that drive) all enter at different points in the building) buses also tend to be staggered over about an hour period-if you're stuck on an early bus, you might as well eat breakfast at school because you're there anyway. 

Typically two security screening lines per door, each with a couple of people running it. Screening is at the school door, not on entry to the parking lot-but you also don't get into the parking lot without a pass, either to drop off/pick up a child or to park. So there are two levels of security to a degree. 

 

After 8:00 AM, and evening/weekend activities there is only one entrance, and ALL visitors go through that entrance. 

 

Students are not allowed reentry to the school building during the day if they leave without going through the office. 

 

Sports events usually have four lines running-and it's recommended that you arrive early because screening lines get LONG. Student participants are screened on entrance to the school building. 

 

When I first saw it, it felt so sad that the high schools had that. Then Columbine happened. 

 

Now, I really wish they had it in ALL schools. 

14 hours ago, bolt. said:

I'm of two minds about police presence in schools.

On the one hand, everything said about the kinds of healthy interactive, respectful and child-and-teen friendly types of scenarios sound wonderful. I'm very much inclined personally to believe in the idea that police are my friends, and they are here to help. That has always been my experience.

On the other hand, when we listen to the experiences of people of colour and folks from disadvantaged backgrounds, I've been hearing loud and clear from those communities in the last few years (since I started been paying attention) that the police are neither helpful nor safe in the realities of their experiences.

Maybe cops are respectful and kind -- like the ones who have helped me out, and the ones on TV. Maybe cops are racist bullies with guns who terrify people and get away with all kinds of crap. Maybe there are some of each. Maybe they are all two-faced and just know how to perform for an audience when they need to. Maybe they are lovely with little kids, but how are they with teens and young adults when their instincts and fears about criminality and danger begin to kick in?

But I do hear a large community asking for less policing and more effective services instead. So I'm really hesitant about 'more policing' being a proposed answer to this complex and dangerous situation.

FWIW, the school I described was a 99+% Black elementary school, in Memphis TN (which has had a history of police brutality), and it still seemed to work well. But maybe that was because it was an elementary school? I will say that it seemed like Black officers were assigned to that station, many of whom had ties to the community, so that may have helped. 

 

 

[catz]

29 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

When a mom calls and says her kid is about to shoot up the school

But did that happen? this is the quote.  

 “I told them it was an extreme emergency and for them to go immediately and find [my son] to check on him.”

 

[Murphy101]

Sigh. I keep coming back to 300 threats and staffing and thinking the result of that daily scenario is there is “written and trained protocol” and then there is the real protocol that reflects daily life.

They can’t take every call so serious bc the truth is every call is not so serious and the school flat out cannot function under the written protocols if they apply them to every threat.

It’s so easy to say this is such a cluster f up.

and it is. But also. There’s no way under the current educational environment that it isn’t going to end up a cluster f up sometimes. And if schools are getting 300 threats (and many absolutely are) the “sometimes” is going to be a daily event somewhere in the nation. This time this unlucky school got the short straw. Tomorrow it will be another school. 

I can’t see how making schools more prison-like is going to reduce how much students want to shoot the place up.  That seems.. not conductive? 

[mommyoffive]

11 minutes ago, catz said:

But did that happen? this is the quote.  

 “I told them it was an extreme emergency and for them to go immediately and find [my son] to check on him.”

 

I didn't read that article.  The news clip that was on TV this morning said that the mom said that her kid was about to shoot up the school, so that is what I was basing my thought on.  Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. 

Edited September 8 by mommyoffive

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

buses also tend to be staggered over about an hour period

Thanks for the explanation. This is one of the differences from where we are, as buses here are on a pretty tight schedule and all arrive at approximately the same time. The same buses get shared between elementary, middle and high school, so they have the start times of each staggered so the buses can drop off all the high schoolers and then move on to doing middle schoolers or elementary. So there really is a big influx of kids all at once. 

[Corraleno]

43 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Sigh. I keep coming back to 300 threats and staffing and thinking the result of that daily scenario is there is “written and trained protocol” and then there is the real protocol that reflects daily life.

But 300 threats is not remotely a "daily scenario" — that was a direct response to the Apalachee shooting by a bunch of idiots who thought copycat calls would be funny and maybe get them out of school for the day, and it covered many counties not just one school. And most of those threats were posted on social media, not called directly to a school while school was in session. One district did cancel all classes in response to a threat, and others initiated soft lockdowns. A local Atlanta station says that at least 20 students have already been arrested for making those calls.

How frequently do you think Apalachee HS was getting direct, targeted school shooter warnings? How often would that need to happen for you to think it's acceptable for them to not even summon resources officers and go into a soft lockdown in response to a direct threat?

[Hilltopmom]

1 hour ago, catz said:

But did that happen? this is the quote.  

 “I told them it was an extreme emergency and for them to go immediately and find [my son] to check on him.”

 

Yeah that’s a “call 911” situation, then the school.

not a call the school, hope someone answers, etc

[catz]

1 hour ago, Hilltopmom said:

Yeah that’s a “call 911” situation, then the school.

not a call the school, hope someone answers, etc

Right - it's not clear to me if the mom knew he had a weapon, etc?  "Go find my kid" is very different than "there is a gun on campus".  We may never know the sequencing and transcripts of these calls and events.  Maybe if there is a full trial.  

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Sigh. I keep coming back to 300 threats and staffing and thinking the result of that daily scenario is there is “written and trained protocol” and then there is the real protocol that reflects daily life.

They can’t take every call so serious bc the truth is every call is not so serious and the school flat out cannot function under the written protocols if they apply them to every threat.

It’s so easy to say this is such a cluster f up.

and it is. But also. There’s no way under the current educational environment that it isn’t going to end up a cluster f up sometimes. And if schools are getting 300 threats (and many absolutely are) the “sometimes” is going to be a daily event somewhere in the nation. This time this unlucky school got the short straw. Tomorrow it will be another school. 

I can’t see how making schools more prison-like is going to reduce how much students want to shoot the place up.  That seems.. not conductive? 

No, it won't solve the underlying circumstances that lead to these shootings. It won't fix these people. It's just to stop the guns from actually getting into the school.  That's it.  Maybe they go shoot something else up, but schools are soft targets. Gun free zones---purely on a voluntary basis.

[catz]

Here is a decent article on the complexity of following up on possible threats.  This student was new to this school/district.  Was just living with the dad.  I am not quick to jump on school leaders until we have full information.  At the end of the day a dad let his mentally disturbed kid have unfettered access to a weapon of war and it was able to come into a school.  

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/why-responding-to-student-threats-is-so-complicated/2024/09