Teacher Bonuses (not a JAWM) questions

[DawnM]

The only bonuses I have ever gotten were bonuses that everyone got.....retention bonuses during covid, etc....

Our district, and some surrounding districts, offer bonuses for math and ELA/English teachers whose students show growth (there is some formula, not sure what it is).

Anyway, my friend is a math teacher.   She has gotten the bonus every single year while in a higher performing school.   She is a good teacher.   The last 2 years she has been in a lower performing school and has not gotten the bonus either year.   She can't get the kids to actually do their work or even come to school.   She came close this year, but didn't get it.

Here is my beef......only ELA and Math teachers are eligible for the bonus (due to testing) and it is far more effort and angst to try to get it in a low performing school, where they should be looking to entice good teachers.   Instead, teachers like her are seeking out better test performing schools to get their extra money.

Am I irritated with this entire thing for no reason?

If you were to offer bonuses, who would get them?  Or would you offer no bonuses?

Thoughts?

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, DawnM said:

The only bonuses I have ever gotten were bonuses that everyone got.....retention bonuses during covid, etc....

Our district, and some surrounding districts, offer bonuses for math and ELA/English teachers whose students show growth (there is some formula, not sure what it is).

Anyway, my friend is a math teacher.   She has gotten the bonus every single year while in a higher performing school.   She is a good teacher.   The last 2 years she has been in a lower performing school and has not gotten the bonus either year.   She can't get the kids to actually do their work or even come to school.   She came close this year, but didn't get it.

Here is my beef......only ELA and Math teachers are eligible for the bonus (due to testing) and it is far more effort and angst to try to get it in a low performing school, where they should be looking to entice good teachers.   Instead, teachers like her are seeking out better test performing schools to get their extra money.

Am I irritated with this entire thing for no reason?

If you were to offer bonuses, who would get them?  Or would you offer no bonuses?

Thoughts?

I've thought the whole "more money for better schools, less money for poorer schools" to be absolutely backwards for a long time. Seems you want to put more money and effort into the ones that need the most work. But hey, what do I know?? I still think phonics should be taught, and math facts memorized, and that asking kindergarteners who can't read yet to do research papers is bordering on child abuse. 

[Faith-manor]

I think it is a bassackwards policy. The stupid idea assumes all students begin with the same set of skills and school readiness. That is just about as dumb an assumption as policy makers can manage. 

It is hard enough to attract teachers to the districts that need them most. They should be falling over backward to keep them.

[Rosie_0801]

Making people feel penalised for things they have no control over can't be good policy.

[SKL]

2 hours ago, DawnM said:

The only bonuses I have ever gotten were bonuses that everyone got.....retention bonuses during covid, etc....

Our district, and some surrounding districts, offer bonuses for math and ELA/English teachers whose students show growth (there is some formula, not sure what it is).

Anyway, my friend is a math teacher.   She has gotten the bonus every single year while in a higher performing school.   She is a good teacher.   The last 2 years she has been in a lower performing school and has not gotten the bonus either year.   She can't get the kids to actually do their work or even come to school.   She came close this year, but didn't get it.

Here is my beef......only ELA and Math teachers are eligible for the bonus (due to testing) and it is far more effort and angst to try to get it in a low performing school, where they should be looking to entice good teachers.   Instead, teachers like her are seeking out better test performing schools to get their extra money.

Am I irritated with this entire thing for no reason?

If you were to offer bonuses, who would get them?  Or would you offer no bonuses?

Thoughts?

I would think that the math bonuses may have been considered necessary due to the relatively low pay of average teaching salaries compared to math-heavy professions.  But I could be wrong.  I don't know about the ELA bonuses

I could see giving bonuses for increasing results over time.  For example, rich school, average score is 90% in 2020, it's 90% in 2021, maybe a small bonus or no bonus.  Poor school, average score is 30% in 2020, it's 40% in 2021, moderate bonus.

I would try to find a way to give incentive bonuses for other fields that are not tested.

However, I think there will always be some results that are hard to measure.  Special ed, counselors, etc.  What would the benchmark be?  These folks' salaries should reflect their contribution without needing a bonus to feel appreciated.

[Katy]

I agree it’s a terrible idea. 

[Harriet Vane]

I haven't read the thread. My perspective is simple and to the point:

Everyone who works at any job anywhere for 40-60 hours a week should be able to pay for housing, food, and health care. And everyone who works should be eligible for regular recognition of achievement in the form of bonuses, pay raises, and access to opportunities to move up the ladder. (Access meaning opportunity to apply with any other qualified candidates.)

[Harriet Vane]

So yeah, bonuses for some and not for others is ridiculous.

[City Mouse]

Unfortunately that is the way it works some places.

One school I worked for gave every teacher a bonus based on specific school wide goals. Then to encourage teacher retention, the more years a teacher worked there, the more bonus that person received, but it was not dependent on grade level or subject taught. That seemed to be the most equitable bonus program. 

Other districts and schools had a plan similar to what you described. Teachers in tested subjects got a larger percentage of bonus than teachers in non-tested subjects or grade levels. 

other districts include teacher attendance in requirements for bonuses. That penalized teachers with younger kids who got sick more often. 

Instead of bonuses, I would much rather see increased salaries for all school employees and/or extra stipends for teachers in hard to fill areas. 

[Carol in Cal.]

The whole issue of teacher pay is fraught, IMO.  

What I think about education is that former homeschooling parents and other community members should go help teachers in schools everywhere, and especially in neighborhoods where it is difficult to attract neighborhood volunteers for whatever reason.  And that they should build up the local teachers and have drives to get them supplies and gifts.  And that teachers should be respected and valued.  This would truly uplift education.

[DawnM]

Oh, and our district needs to find a way to cut almost 200 MILLION DOLLARS for next year.   There are going to be big meetings about it.

What chaps my hide?   That was Covid money, it wasn't there before, so what the heck did you do with it that makes it need to be cut now?    Why didn't you allocate it so that this wouldn't be a giant "oh no!   Now what do we do?" situation????

ARGH!

Edited February 8 by DawnM

[DawnM]

12 hours ago, SKL said:

I would think that the math bonuses may have been considered necessary due to the relatively low pay of average teaching salaries compared to math-heavy professions.  But I could be wrong.  I don't know about the ELA bonuses

I could see giving bonuses for increasing results over time.  For example, rich school, average score is 90% in 2020, it's 90% in 2021, maybe a small bonus or no bonus.  Poor school, average score is 30% in 2020, it's 40% in 2021, moderate bonus.

I would try to find a way to give incentive bonuses for other fields that are not tested.

However, I think there will always be some results that are hard to measure.  Special ed, counselors, etc.  What would the benchmark be?  These folks' salaries should reflect their contribution without needing a bonus to feel appreciated.

The math bonuses are only tied to student growth.    I could see if it were a salary thing and they got more money in salary to entice high school math teachers or science teachers.   It is hard to get and retain math and science teachers.   But nope, they just care about test scores.

We all got a $5,000 bonus for Covid retention.   We got $2,500 per year for 2 years.   But that wasn't tied to performance at all.

It is so hard to measure some things.....EC teachers should automatically get more money in my opinion!   They are saints!

 

[Heartstrings]

Giving teachers bonuses for already having the fortune to work in a district with good test scores is just silly.  Test scores are tied to parent income, not teacher performance.  If bonuses are given to teachers it should be for scores that are over the baseline for that school or grade or whatever because teachers generally have no control over the baseline. 

Edited February 8 by Heartstrings

[Kanin]

17 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

And everyone who works should be eligible for regular recognition of achievement in the form of bonuses, pay raises, and access to opportunities to move up the ladder.

I totally agree with you. My DH works in an organization that's very committed to recognizing employee efforts and successes. They regularly recognize employees in small ways and large. I can really see how it boosts employee engagement with their workplace.

For me, working in a school? Not so much. We occasionally get a "thank you for everything you do!" email from the principal, or snacks from the PTO. It's nice, but it doesn't really feel like we're being specifically recognized. It's so general as to be pretty much meaningless. And moving up the ladder? There's no ladder unless you switch to administration. No opportunity to make more money unless you're on a committee - no bonuses.

 

 

 

 

[Kanin]

And also, I think it's a horrible idea for teachers to get bonuses for student achievement! Teachers get the group they get. Sometimes it's a high-achieving group and sometimes it's not. 

I would never work in a district that did that. 

[kbutton]

I think they should speak to parents and teachers in low performing districts that manage to make a dent in the problems and actually find out what works to move the bar on student achievement. Let them be frank. Let them identify who’s not helpful and who is (with legit examples, not just an airing of grievances). Then give teachers the means to implement those things. That itself would be a bonus of sorts. Then go from there to work on pay. Understanding the problem is the first part.

Credentials are only as good as what you do with them, and we already know that schools are failing kids on reading thanks to podcasts about such things. Some of the best intervention my kids have had has been from “unqualified” people, and some of the least effective has been with the most qualified people. Get real about individual talents and about whether credentials are truly needed (beyond the baseline), and then funnel people into jobs they are actually good at. Let them do those jobs. Then start looking at how to structure bonuses. Give the training to the teachers most likely to be able to implement it! I have no idea what to do with teachers who aren’t good, but maybe listen to them too and find out if it’s because they got shafted to teach something they aren’t good at.

One of my worst teachers a million years ago was a math teacher that literally hid behind her union pin and sponsored the future teachers club. I learned NOTHING in her class.

 

 

[math teacher]

Trust me, teachers in non tested grades who don't receive the bonuses think it's unfair as well, especially when we see the big checks on FB of our fellow teachers-sometimes over $10,000 each. Stuff like this is why teachers are leaving.

[Faith-manor]

33 minutes ago, math teacher said:

Trust me, teachers in non tested grades who don't receive the bonuses think it's unfair as well, especially when we see the big checks on FB of our fellow teachers-sometimes over $10,000 each. Stuff like this is why teachers are leaving.

It makes my blood boil. So dumb. But so much of our education is just insanely stupid. I look at what my state thinks will "fix" K12, and all it is going to do is make more people leave the profession. 

[math teacher]

18 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

It makes my blood boil. So dumb. But so much of our education is just insanely stupid. I look at what my state thinks will "fix" K12, and all it is going to do is make more people leave the profession. 

Yes, and when you add in all the over contract hours and the atrocious behavior, it really becomes nearly unbearable.

[DawnM]

8 hours ago, Kanin said:

And also, I think it's a horrible idea for teachers to get bonuses for student achievement! Teachers get the group they get. Sometimes it's a high-achieving group and sometimes it's not. 

I would never work in a district that did that. 

In CA we never had this.   I think all of the NC districts have something for bonuses for the aforementioned people.

[Clemsondana]

On 2/7/2024 at 7:18 PM, Carol in Cal. said:

The whole issue of teacher pay is fraught, IMO.  

What I think about education is that former homeschooling parents and other community members should go help teachers in schools everywhere, and especially in neighborhoods where it is difficult to attract neighborhood volunteers for whatever reason.  And that they should build up the local teachers and have drives to get them supplies and gifts.  And that teachers should be respected and valued.  This would truly uplift education.

In many places, the schools don't seem to want volunteers.  When spouse worked at a national lab, there was an office in charge of volunteering.  I talked to the person in charge and she said that she had a list of people wanting to help tutor, and the schools wouldn't return their calls.  Occasionally an elementary school would ask for somebody to read a book, but nobody wanted tutors.  I attended a church that worked hard to set up a tutoring project  - the vision with the high school principal was that we'd meet at the high school and be available for all feeder schools (several elementary, 2-3 middle).  When a new principal came, they said that the majority of the kids that we helped were elementary kids so the high school didn't need to host it even though a couple of counselors and librarians were volunteering their time to be there and let us in.  They suggested that our tutors go to the various schools during the day, which would have spread 10 people across 7-8 schools and eliminated all who had jobs.  The program was shut down.  

I've volunteered for a decade at afterschool programs in our area, and my hope once my younger can drive is that I'll be able to volunteer tutor at a local elementary 1-2 mornings each week.  But, I also would guess that I have maybe a 50-50 shot of actually being able to do it.  I'm hoping that the supervisor at the Boys and Girls Club where I volunteer will put in a good word for me at a school, because I know that the only way I'll be able to do it is if I find some teacher or admin willing to let it happen.  My parents were actively discouraged from volunteering during my high school years - anything outside of athletic/band booster was not wanted.  

[kbutton]

Tutoring is difficult—is the goal to help a kid learn to read or push a poor reader through material that is inappropriate for their particular problem so that they can get through another day of school? I have not tutored extensively, but that became an issue in my few brushes with it.

I was an informal tutor in high school, but it was people in my classes seeking me out, and they wouldn’t have been in those classes if they weren’t ready for the most part. Totally different goal for helping someone!

[Pam in CT]

(I live in a state where public education is funded differently than almost anywhere else, which makes the dynamics in our education sector very different than other states and often leaves me not understanding many dynamics and conversations elsewhere.)

Where does the money for these bonuses come from?  (Statewide? county wide?  possibly federal?  does it flow to districts automatically or do districts have to apply and jump hoops to get it?  or are individual districts coughing up some or all of the funding for the bonuses?)

What standardized test is the bonus structure tied do? 

What are the financial consequences + / -  for districts or schools that perform + / - on the test?

 

There are a zillion reasons why working in higher income districts is vastly more pleasant and comfortable than in more challenging districts. And even more reasons why higher income / higher expenditure per pupil districts have a vastly easier time getting to vastly higher standardized test scores. If I were Queen of the World, I'd focus on paying same-scale teachers MORE money in more challenging schools (along the lines of "hardship" posts in overseas positions) and RETENTION bonuses only in more challenging districts. And maybe tinker with some construct that "if the school as a whole raises test scores there's some (relatively small) pot of money for celebration and recognition events."

But as a general principle it's not the schools that knock test scores out of the park that need more money, nor the teachers whose students knock test scores out of the park. Incentive structures that direct prizes to the schools and teachers that have the good fortune to happen to have high-scoring kids are somewhere between "rewarding random luck" and "rewarding those who least need more."

 

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

(I live in a state where public education is funded differently than almost anywhere else, which makes the dynamics in our education sector very different than other states and often leaves me not understanding many dynamics and conversations elsewhere.)

Where does the money for these bonuses come from?  (Statewide? county wide?  possibly federal?  does it flow to districts automatically or do districts have to apply and jump hoops to get it?  or are individual districts coughing up some or all of the funding for the bonuses?)

What standardized test is the bonus structure tied do? 

What are the financial consequences + / -  for districts or schools that perform + / - on the test?

 

There are a zillion reasons why working in higher income districts is vastly more pleasant and comfortable than in more challenging districts. And even more reasons why higher income / higher expenditure per pupil districts have a vastly easier time getting to vastly higher standardized test scores. If I were Queen of the World, I'd focus on paying same-scale teachers MORE money in more challenging schools (along the lines of "hardship" posts in overseas positions) and RETENTION bonuses only in more challenging districts. And maybe tinker with some construct that "if the school as a whole raises test scores there's some (relatively small) pot of money for celebration and recognition events."

But as a general principle it's not the schools that knock test scores out of the park that need more money, nor the teachers whose students knock test scores out of the park. Incentive structures that direct prizes to the schools and teachers that have the good fortune to happen to have high-scoring kids are somewhere between "rewarding random luck" and "rewarding those who least need more."

 

How is it funded there?   I thought everyone did funding through property tax with some additional from the state and federal levels.  

[Pam in CT]

25 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

How is it funded there?   I thought everyone did funding through property tax with some additional from the state and federal levels.  

See, I so often hear (on this board and elsewhere) about how schools "lose funding" from the state or county if enrollment drops -- that funding is tied to per pupil enrollment and comes from outside what would (here) be called "the district" -- either the county or state level.

Here, under a very old Home Rule law that encompasses a great many things, we do exactly as you say -- schools are overwhelmingly funded by very-locally administered property taxes, and wealthier districts receive no state-level funding, and federal funding is limited to that tied to particular programs like lunches and IDEA mandates.  Property taxes in those towns are very high (like 3-5x as high as property taxes on equivalent-number-of-bedroom houses inside city lines) and schools in those towns are very good (unsurprising give whopping differentials in per student expenditures -- Col 3 on that link -- which actually vastly understate the difference because those same towns also have parallel 501c3s that raise funding for entire tenured salaries in the arts as well as turf fields and computer centers and etc).

Less prosperous districts **do** get state funding that is meant to soften those differentials (but those state funds are already included in those linked expenditure numbers) as well as proportionately more federal funding.

But the net effect is that this state has some of the highest AVERAGE school test scores in the country which mask some of the worst DIFFERENTIALS in school test scores in the country.

 

I have a Singaporean SIL who was absolutely.flabbergasted (and dismayed) to learn that different schools in the US got vastly different funding. In Singapore there are different languages of primary instruction, but according to her it's one system, one curriculum, essentially equivalent class sizes / teacher-student ratios / pp expenditures / comparable physical facilities and etc.

[DawnM]

4 hours ago, kbutton said:

Tutoring is difficult—is the goal to help a kid learn to read or push a poor reader through material that is inappropriate for their particular problem so that they can get through another day of school? I have not tutored extensively, but that became an issue in my few brushes with it.

I was an informal tutor in high school, but it was people in my classes seeking me out, and they wouldn’t have been in those classes if they weren’t ready for the most part. Totally different goal for helping someone!

I am not following.  Who are you responding to?

[wathe]

I don't think we have a pay-fo performance funding model for education in Ontario.    I think the teachers would revolt.  Their union is very strong, and they are reasonably well paid.  Starting salary $50k, topping out at about $100k, with an average of $73k

Pay-for-performance funding for hospitals is another story.  The same paradox: the best performing hospitals get bonus funding, and the one who struggle  -- too bad for them.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

I am not following.  Who are you responding to?

A number of people talked about volunteering to tutor in the schools and some others said how tutors are not wanted. It seemed to be a side conversation. 

[Clemsondana]

9 hours ago, kbutton said:

Tutoring is difficult—is the goal to help a kid learn to read or push a poor reader through material that is inappropriate for their particular problem so that they can get through another day of school? I have not tutored extensively, but that became an issue in my few brushes with it.

I was an informal tutor in high school, but it was people in my classes seeking me out, and they wouldn’t have been in those classes if they weren’t ready for the most part. Totally different goal for helping someone!

I've been involved in several kinds.  Sometimes it's just trying to help young kids with homework the same way that a parent might.  Sometimes it's pulling kids out to start at the beginning, teaching phonics or arithmetic independent of the school assignment.  Sometimes a person would want to work long term with 1-2 kids, helping them manage their algebra.  I've seen kids make huge strides in after school programs, but nothing was offered to them in school.  Schools say that they want volunteers, but across 2-3 states and 20 years I have not found that to be true.