Sports WWYD?

[BakersDozen]

Seems I have more situations requiring the WWYD question lately than anything light. Sports situation:

• Travel level team, new 16U division created after years of hoping and waiting, specifically for 14U Silver level players who want to continue yet aren't ready for the 18U jump in ability.
• Parents signed up for 16U, paid fees including for a once/week practice session. Players have been practicing since September or so.
• Official rosters were released in November. An elite (think nationally-ranked) player is on the team. His age is right, but ability level clearly not so.
• Question posted to head folks as to why players are allowed to move 3 levels down - from 18U Gold to 16U Silver. Told it is fine, only 2 higher level players allowed per team. All rosters supposedly approved after comparison with all rosters from all teams turned in.
• Last week, email sent out that 2 more players are being added - one very good; one playing for elite 18U team. As they are involved with another competitive sport, they can't attend practices until April, but they will be at tournaments starting in February. They will "help the team win games."
• Team had not played one tournament yet - no chance for these players who've been working their butts off since last fall to show what they can do.
• Emails are flying, questions being asked. Result: rules have been changed regarding higher level players. No longer limited to 2/team. So now teams across the 16U division are more 18U Silver at the least.
• Our roster had 8 players - ideal for max play time - 4 on/4 off. With 10 players, 2 will be bench warmers or sent out to give the "real" players a breather.
• Guess whose kid was a true 16U player and so happy to have a division to be in? Along with 3 others, we've been blindsided by this sudden change.
• Parents of elite players known for taking advantage of any tournament they can get their kids into for stats. They boast openly about how amazing their kids play (which is true) yet ignore guidelines for ability-based divisions. And powers-that-be allow it because these players bring in more fee $ and status.

WWYD? Right now, if this goes as I believe it will, we will be paying around 2K for a kid to maybe get 1-2 minutes (if that) during tournaments. This same kid will show up every week for a 2-hour practice, but won't get played when it really counts. It would not have been this way had the elite players not been allowed on a division which, again, was clearly and repeatedly touted as being for the non-elite players, rather a chance for Silver level players to take a gentle step up.

The thing is, my kid wants to keep playing. But everything in me rises up and screams at the wrongness of this. And then there's the $. This is a huge, huge investment for us financially and with time. And it's watching this kid put so much into something that won't be what this player (or the other truly 16U players) signed up for. The division has literally been stacked with top of the top players. How did this happen?

These top players are all on one elite team which asked to be included on the 16U division. They were told nope. So the parents divided up their players between teams, putting 2-3 elite players on teams which were to be Silver (think JV compared to Varsity or even All-Star/All American).

I want to pull my kid. My kid wants to stay. I feel almost violent disrespect and disgust for the coach and those parents who can't let this one division just be for the kids who need it. Their elite players will dominate and add to their stats and stars, and the other players, who should have been playing their hearts out, will be watching from the bench.
 

Again, WWYD? If you would keep your kid in the program, how would you reconcile the wrongness of it all? Oh, and the true 16U players who were "wooed" and told how vital they were to the program/team and oh, we're so excited to have this team (last fall)? Now told, "Well, you can get your money back." No apologies. Nothing. Just a message that they don't matter now.

 

[Kassia]

13 minutes ago, BakersDozen said:

 

 Right now, if this goes as I believe it will, we will be paying around 2K for a kid to maybe get 1-2 minutes (if that) during tournaments. This same kid will show up every week for a 2-hour practice, but won't get played when it really counts. It would not have been this way had the elite players not been allowed on a division which, again, was clearly and repeatedly touted as being for the non-elite players, rather a chance for Silver level players to take a gentle step up.

The thing is, my kid wants to keep playing. But everything in me rises up and screams at the wrongness of this. And then there's the $. This is a huge, huge investment for us financially and with time. And it's watching this kid put so much into something that won't be what this player (or the other truly 16U players) signed up for. The division has literally been stacked with top of the top players.

I want to pull my kid. My kid wants to stay. I feel almost violent disrespect and disgust for the coach and those parents who can't let this one division just be for the kids who need it. Their elite players will dominate and add to their stats and stars, and the other players, who should have been playing their hearts out, will be watching from the bench.
 

Ugh, what a difficult situation.  I don't know what I'd ultimately decide on, but I know it would be a hard decision made with a lot of angst.  I'm sorry. 

[Tap]

Is there a higher governing than the locally making the decisions?  Even if the higher body can't change the current rosters, they can put pressure on this. I would raise a stink and ask for more equal game play. Minimum for each kid or some way to keep the balance in the favor of what the group was designed for. My kids were in sports for years and when people in power were allowed to abuse that power, it only got worse. Maybe consider a parent meeting to address all of this with the coach or people making decisions. Some people really get caught up in the power and money, and it isn't until other shine light on their actions, that others can see it. If no one brings it up, and makes it known,  everyone is assumed to agree. 

[BakersDozen]

27 minutes ago, Tap said:

Is there a higher governing than the locally making the decisions?  Even if the higher body can't change the current rosters, they can put pressure on this. I would raise a stink and ask for more equal game play. Minimum for each kid or some way to keep the balance in the favor of what the group was designed for. My kids were in sports for years and when people in power were allowed to abuse that power, it only got worse. Maybe consider a parent meeting to address all of this with the coach or people making decisions. Some people really get caught up in the power and money, and it isn't until other shine light on their actions, that others can see it. If no one brings it up, and makes it known,  everyone is assumed to agree. 

I have contacted everyone from local coach to head of the entire thing. Communication went from reassurance that this division was "developmental" (and I have screenshots of that from the main page for the organization) to some allowances to changing the rules completely. I can do nothing at this point because the higher level players dominate the teams, and so my voice and my player's presence have no weight. If all 3-4 of the lower level players left, it would hurt the team. There are 2 of us strongly considering doing so.

The problem really lies in the fact that "yes" is said when it should be "no." It's money and numbers and status. And it's parents...oh, the parents just make me want to throw a rock through a huge picture window.

I have considered going directly to the coach (who was a one-time friend...no longer a friend at all) and remind him that this was a developmental group, balanced playing time, etc. But he won't listen. He used to be all about "fun and fair for all," but that changed right quick when he got control of the program. And the players coming in who are elite expect to dominate the game, which is what will happen.

This hurts so much. The betrayal to the true 16U players for whom this division was created is intensely felt, but it doesn't matter to anyone who could do anything about it.

[KungFuPanda]

Are there any local rec options where your kid will get true coaching and playing time? Can he go down a level? It’s hard enough to warm a bench, but paying extra for the privilege is just insulting. For less money you could get your kid some private coaching?  What is your goal and how can you meet it? I’m not sure that your son being attached to the idea of this new team is the best reason to go all in on a toxic situation. It’s okay to put your kid first. If your kid is a team player and you’re not a jerk then you two wouldn’t be ruining a lower level experience like these other parents plan to. 

[Dmmetler]

I empathize. I've had the experience of having kids leveled down onto what had been a team that was mostly people who were new to the level that had been fine with the idea of it being a "building season". The kids leveled down had expected to move up, were frustrated at the idea of being leveled down, and definitely were NOT ready for anything developmental or to give their teammates time to develop. And since the coach who was working with the higher level kids came with them, he basically pushed the coach who had been coaching the lower team out, and pushed it in that direction. Lots of extra practices, lots of conditioning, lots of pressure-and lots of bullying and social pressures because the two groups never really became a team. 

 

In 20/20 hindsight, I should have pulled my kid the second they made the decision to level down the higher level kids. I kind of had a sunk cost fallacy thing going on there, where I felt like we'd committed to the team and should stick with it. But the fact is, we committed to a team that no longer existed. My advice is to get out if you can. 

[BakersDozen]

8 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Are there any local rec options where your kid will get true coaching and playing time? Can he go down a level? It’s hard enough to warm a bench, but paying extra for the privilege is just insulting. For less money you could get your kid some private coaching?  What is your goal and how can you meet it? I’m not sure that your son being attached to the idea of this new team is the best reason to go all in on a toxic situation. It’s okay to put your kid first. If your kid is a team player and you’re not a jerk then you two wouldn’t be ruining a lower level experience like these other parents plan to. 

My kids play in the Rec leagues - unfortunately, the same coach has made it a practice to go the opposite direction with Rec. He moves newer players up who are smaller, unable to stop, and truly make things dangerous (so as to "improve" the newer players), and he focuses on those newer players to the exclusion of the seasoned players. His response when this was brought up was, "That's what travel is for - let the better players move to travel." Only not all of those players/families want or can do travel.

We used to have an amazing private coach. He is now the head jerk in charge who doesn't give two hoots about the kids save for stats and stars. I have approached another guy about private coaching and would happily go that route, but that may not play out - still waiting on details.

And yes, the cost is what really gets to me. I was willing to pay for a developmental division as it's my one player's last chance at something like this. But now I'm paying for her (not him) to be passed up so the elite players, who continue to have their own team on the next level up, can dominate this no longer developmental team.

[BakersDozen]

Update: Got a very terse email back from the head guy in charge. I asked last night about the rule which is still in place on the group's page regarding the number of elite players who are allowed on a team. He said the rule is being changed. Didn't talk to any of the parents of the original players. So then I asked if the description of the division would also be changed at it was, from the start, clearly stated as a developmental division for Silver level players. His response was that he will no longer be answering my emails, things are what they are, and that's that. Totally shut down. I read and reread my messages, asked advice from a few friends who read my emails (which were not rude - I promise, I erred on the side of being too nice and asking questions, not throwing accusations), and realize I've been shut down because this new division, which is absolutely not 16U and not at all Silver level, is solidly in place now.

I am in tears. My kid wants to play - doesn't care win or lose (which is totally different than the coach's attitude that it's all about the win). I want to pull her. I don't want to pay for something that has changed so much. I know she'll sit on the bench while these insanely, pretty much semi-pro level players dominate a once developmental division.

And these elite players still have their team on the next level up. Since they were told no to being on 16U as a team, they simply dispersed to different teams. Doesn't matter to them - they'll still win, get awards, status, stats, and all that.

I hate this.

[BakersDozen]

3 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

The kids leveled down had expected to move up, were frustrated at the idea of being leveled down, and definitely were NOT ready for anything developmental or to give their teammates time to develop.

I kind of wish this was how the leveled-down players actually felt, but they don't. They are more than happy to play down and annihilate lesser players. If team mates sit on the bench the entire tournament, that's totally fine with the elite players (and their parents). With the higher level players present, it's all about them and no one else.

 

 

3 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

lots of bullying and social pressures because the two groups never really became a team. 

That was in play from the first practice with both levels of players. The disconnect is evident, the ugly attitudes (from the higher level players mostly) is disgusting.

[Kassia]

3 minutes ago, BakersDozen said:

 His response was that he will no longer be answering my emails, things are what they are, and that's that. Totally shut down.

I am in tears. My kid wants to play - doesn't care win or lose (which is totally different than the coach's attitude that it's all about the win). I want to pull her. I don't want to pay for something that has changed so much. I know she'll sit on the bench while these insanely, pretty much semi-pro level players dominate a once developmental division.

And these elite players still have their team on the next level up. Since they were told no to being on 16U as a team, they simply dispersed to different teams. Doesn't matter to them - they'll still win, get awards, status, stats, and all that.

I hate this.

What a jerk that guy is.  Just another reason not to participate, but it's so hard because your child wants to be a part of this.  I'd be in tears, too.  😞  

[BakersDozen]

8 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Can he go down a level?

Boys cannot play down a level; girls used to be allowed to play down 2 levels. The problem was that in the younger ages, the girls dominated horribly and it was very unfair. But with the teens, the girls are at a distinct disadvantage so now the rule, which is across the board, only allows for girls to play one level down. But the elite players who were at 18U Gold? These boys can play down THREE levels to what was 16U Silver. When I asked about that, I was shut down.

Given that my player is a girl, this is really stacked against her. She is exactly the kind of player for whom this division was created. She shouldn't be on the rink with boys who compete nationally. And neither should the other true 16U players.

The reality is that this sport caters to the elite players. The parents are on the boards. The parents are coaches.

Edited February 2 by BakersDozen

[Toocrazy!!]

I have zero advice, but this makes me really sad for your daughter. I hate that sports has become so serious that there’s nowhere for people to be able to play. And to be mislead is the worst! And he’s such a jerk. What a crappy situation. I’m sorry. 

[BakersDozen]

23 minutes ago, Toocrazy!! said:

I have zero advice, but this makes me really sad for your daughter. I hate that sports has become so serious that there’s nowhere for people to be able to play. And to be mislead is the worst! And he’s such a jerk. What a crappy situation. I’m sorry. 

And that's what makes this so hard - this division was for those kids who wouldn't normally continue with the sport to be able to play against/with players at their level. The communication has been zero - unless one is a coach or an annoying mom who reads everything and follows through without letting up until she has answers (and then is told to be quiet and go away), the rest of the parents/players won't realize what's going on until tournament day. And that's just not fair.

[KungFuPanda]

3 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

Boys cannot play down a level; girls used to be allowed to play down 2 levels. The problem was that in the younger ages, the girls dominated horribly and it was very unfair. But with the teens, the girls are at a distinct disadvantage so now the rule, which is across the board, only allows for girls to play one level down. But the elite players who were at 18U Gold? These boys can play down THREE levels to what was 16U Silver. When I asked about that, I was shut down.

Given that my player is a girl, this is really stacked against her. She is exactly the kind of player for whom this division was created. She shouldn't be on the rink with boys who compete nationally. And neither should the other true 16U players.

The reality is that this sport caters to the elite players. The parents are on the boards. The parents are coaches.

I’d be angry and broken hearted for my daughter. Do they even have a mission statement or is it their goal to support trophy hogging bullies? Who is improving in this environment?  
 

Is there ANY other venue for her? Is she old enough to take a few community college classes and join their team? Any private schools accepting players?

[Toocrazy!!]

Ok, I’ve been trying to figure this out- what sport is this? Boys and girls play together and 4 in 4 out has me totally baffled ??

[KSera]

42 minutes ago, Toocrazy!! said:

Ok, I’ve been trying to figure this out- what sport is this? Boys and girls play together and 4 in 4 out has me totally baffled ??

The mention of “rink” has me thinking curling (I can delete this, op, if you were specifically not wanting to say)

[Katy]

I don’t have advice. I think I’d talk to DD & let her decide what to do, and make it clear that this isn’t what we signed up for, and in her place I would drop out even though we typically don’t allow mid season quitting. 

[BakersDozen]

5 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’d be angry and broken hearted for my daughter. Do they even have a mission statement or is it their goal to support trophy hogging bullies? Who is improving in this environment?  
 

Is there ANY other venue for her? Is she old enough to take a few community college classes and join their team? Any private schools accepting players?

The elites are improving. The rest are sink or swim, pay to play but maybe don't be played at all.

There really isn't another venue for her. She is passionate about playing, but other options are out of reach due to cost, location, her age, etc. If there was something else for her, we'd jump on it. But there's not. 😞

[BakersDozen]

3 hours ago, Toocrazy!! said:

Ok, I’ve been trying to figure this out- what sport is this? Boys and girls play together and 4 in 4 out has me totally baffled ??

Roller hockey.

[BakersDozen]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I don’t have advice. I think I’d talk to DD & let her decide what to do, and make it clear that this isn’t what we signed up for, and in her place I would drop out even though we typically don’t allow mid season quitting. 

We had a chat tonight and this is how it went. It's not even mid-season as the first tournament hasn't even happened, but for her it's been weekly practice since last fall so she's invested a lot of time and effort into this. I told her it's her decision, but I definitely qualified that with what I am struggling and why.

[BakersDozen]

5 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Do they even have a mission statement or is it their goal to support trophy hogging bullies?

There was a statement/description of what this division was for (that will be changed now) and a code of conduct, declaration about building great kids as well as great players, etc. It's all type and hype, as we're finding out.

[Frances]

I’d leave it up to her. For some kids, practicing is as much or more fun than competing at tournaments. Hopefully she gets to participate in most if not all of the practice stuff.

[KungFuPanda]

Would her skills transfer to field hockey or lacrosse? Something with more players on the field?

[BakersDozen]

53 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Would her skills transfer to field hockey or lacrosse? Something with more players on the field?

I've not found field hockey here. I watched a lacrosse game...nope. I also saw the numerous and rather gruesome injuries our friend's son acquired while playing lacrosse...yuck. At least with roller hockey, there is a lot of protective gear and some rules about checking/bodying, etc.

It's also hard because she's been with some of the hockey players for about 3 years (the actual 16U players, that is). I know she's not wanting to leave that group.

[J-rap]

That would be super hard for me too.  I get so mad about situations like this.  

Are there other girls on the team, or kids that actually are nice kids playing fairly? 

If she stuck it out on the team this year as a bench warmer, would she likely advance in her skills to a point where next year she'd be playing more?   Can she drop out mid-season if she decided it wasn't for her?

I guess all of those things might help with our decision.  My dd played ice hockey and was passionate about it.  We didn't have a traveling team or even a school team (small town) so it was definitely not at the level you're talking about.  It was a community team, but she played almost every day after school and it was usually her and the boys.  It would have been hard for her to let it go.

It sounds like you've been very honest about your concerns with your dd, and if she still wants to play, I suppose I would still let her, but the answers to the above questions would affect my comfort level with it.

(I wouldn't necessarily be done with that whole unfair issue though...  I'd continue looking for ways to make a difference.  Maybe you'll see some other path of doing this down the road...)

 

[HomeAgain]

I feel for you. One option you may not have tried is running this through a lawyer.  The bait-and-switch is evident and traceable.  Even a short meeting, with a letter drafted to the league with inquiry questions may be enough to unsettle them a bit.

DS14 plays hockey.   We were talking last night about Hockey Canada and whether there is a culture problem in hockey or more realistically, whether individual leagues/teams create toxic cultures and lax expectations for players, which then becomes a narrow funnel of hotbed issues.  We've had our share of toxicity and it comes down to ds just wants to play. So we do anything we can to get him into good environments. His team right now has kids from all over because it's just a good, happy place to be. I'm not so sure roller hockey has that many options to move around, and if this is a toxic place for your dd, it might be worth pursuing a few sideways options like field or ice, if you have it. But in our experience, teams that don't mesh don't end up being worth the hassle for the coaches and they quit.  We've watched two girls' hockey teams fizzle out because of bad leadership.  The girls just play with the boys or go to serious club teams, but the name of the girls' teams have become a negative thought in many people's minds.  Parents are less likely to sign up for the lower levels knowing what waits above, so they just start the move early.  I don't want that for you guys, but it's something to consider.

 

I feel slightly guilty because this year ds is "playing down" even though we didn't mean for him to.  He missed tryouts and they put him on the lowest level.  He's a hot mess of anxiety, so it's really where he needed to be emotionally, but we have had the polite inquiries about his training and age.  This is the first year we've been able to install 'conditional rewards'. He got his first hat trick, something he worked toward for years.  Then it became "get a goal, assist, and check someone."  Now it's "use your size to open the ice and get it to 8, who's ready at the net, or back to 27 at the blue line' .  He played with a kid last year who got paid for each goal so there was no way anyone else was getting to touch the puck.  It really put a bad taste in everyone's mouth.  We want ds to keep seeing this as a team effort.  But also, it's up to his coaches to help that along, too, and that needs to be reinforced by the league.

[wintermom]

Just for clarity, can a player on a U16 team be older than 16? When players on a U18 team also "play down" on a U16 team is that because they are under16 but choose to play with under 18 year olds in the U18 and under 16 year olds in a U16 team?

If my under 16 year old daughter was suddenly being forced to play against 17 year old males in a sport like hockey, I'd get her out of there immediately and be requiring my money returned, then potentially starting a law suit against the league. The risk of serious physical injury is huge. Yes, playing time is an important factor, and all the promises made about playing time to foster development is really important, too. Ultimately, my child's physical safety is going to trump all that. One serious concussion could change a young person's life for years. It is not worth the risk (my ds is still suffering the affects of a serious concussion 3 years later).

Edited February 3 by wintermom

[wathe]

On 2/2/2024 at 2:11 AM, BakersDozen said:

 

 

Last week, email sent out that 2 more players are being added - one very good; one playing for elite 18U team. As they are involved with another competitive sport, they can't attend practices until April, but they will be at tournaments starting in February. They will "help the team win games."

 

This tells me everything I need to know about the program culture.  Blech.

16u age elite players who currently play on an 18u team, being sent to 16u tournaments as ringers to help win games and boost their individual stats, while still playing full-time on their 18u team.  Displacing 16u developmental level players who have put in the work, and built a team of their own.

Does this program accept government funding or other non-profit org funding?  This sort of funding usually comes with conditions that stipulate youth development goals: ie advancement of education, beneficial to the community, eg "focus on building participation and engagement in recreation and sport to enhance the broader health and well-being of the community".  If the program is in violation of its funding agreement, then that's actionable

Is the program itself a non-profit or charity for tax purposes?  There will be similar community engagement and youth development criteria.  If the program's behaviour jeopardizes its tax status, that's very actionable.

Is the program under the umbrella of a state or national sports org?  Most youth sports in Canada are, as it facilitates insurance and administration; I imagine the US might be similar.  What are their org mission, vision and standards?  Fair-play policies for developmental levels?  and if it's anything like the sports we're involved with, there will be all kinds of diversity, inclusion, development of athlete-as-a-whole-person, sportsmanship, integrity, dignitiy, kindness,  growth and development content.

Most of this info will be google-able.

My approach with a similar situation has been 1) put some parent skin into the game - attend annual meetings, get involved as a parent volunteer/manager, get onto the bench as a trainer.  This gets you Street Cred.  2) establish myself as a Person Who Knows The Things and Is Paying Attention: familiarize self with org constitution, standards, values and mission, codes of conduct, all  at the club and umbrella org level (provincial and national, if relevant), funding model, legal/tax status (non-profit vs charity), strings attached to funding.  Go to annual meeting where budget is presented.    

[BakersDozen]

On 2/3/2024 at 5:48 AM, J-rap said:

That would be super hard for me too.  I get so mad about situations like this.  

Are there other girls on the team, or kids that actually are nice kids playing fairly? 

If she stuck it out on the team this year as a bench warmer, would she likely advance in her skills to a point where next year she'd be playing more?   Can she drop out mid-season if she decided it wasn't for her?

I guess all of those things might help with our decision.  My dd played ice hockey and was passionate about it.  We didn't have a traveling team or even a school team (small town) so it was definitely not at the level you're talking about.  It was a community team, but she played almost every day after school and it was usually her and the boys.  It would have been hard for her to let it go.

It sounds like you've been very honest about your concerns with your dd, and if she still wants to play, I suppose I would still let her, but the answers to the above questions would affect my comfort level with it.

(I wouldn't necessarily be done with that whole unfair issue though...  I'd continue looking for ways to make a difference.  Maybe you'll see some other path of doing this down the road...)

 

There are decent, team-player kind of players, yes. And I'm desperately hoping dd will be with those players because if not, she's going up and down the rink, cycling, and just watching instead of playing. That's if she's put on the rink at all now.

Yes, she can drop out mid-season. In fact, if the team is deemed too good and told to move up to 18U, she'll drop out whether she likes it or not. I won't be surprised if that happens and with the additional players, the coach won't care if he loses 1-2 of his "lesser" players.

[BakersDozen]

On 2/3/2024 at 11:03 AM, wintermom said:

Just for clarity, can a player on a U16 team be older than 16? When players on a U18 team also "play down" on a U16 team is that because they are under16 but choose to play with under 18 year olds in the U18 and under 16 year olds in a U16 team?

If my under 16 year old daughter was suddenly being forced to play against 17 year old males in a sport like hockey, I'd get her out of there immediately and be requiring my money returned, then potentially starting a law suit against the league. The risk of serious physical injury is huge. Yes, playing time is an important factor, and all the promises made about playing time to foster development is really important, too. Ultimately, my child's physical safety is going to trump all that. One serious concussion could change a young person's life for years. It is not worth the risk (my ds is still suffering the affects of a serious concussion 3 years later).

The players are not allowed to be older than 16 - there is a birth year cutoff. The dilemma is that there are 16-year olds who play super elite, high-level 18U hockey, and those players were not supposed to be on this developmental division. So while it is 16U, it's not a typical 16U, if that makes sense. They're trying to retain the Silver level players coming up from 14U. And yes, dd's safety is making me lay awake at night from worry. She's fast and has great defensive moves, but she's so small compared to the boys.

[BakersDozen]

On 2/3/2024 at 7:01 AM, HomeAgain said:

I feel for you. One option you may not have tried is running this through a lawyer.  The bait-and-switch is evident and traceable.  Even a short meeting, with a letter drafted to the league with inquiry questions may be enough to unsettle them a bit.

DS14 plays hockey.   We were talking last night about Hockey Canada and whether there is a culture problem in hockey or more realistically, whether individual leagues/teams create toxic cultures and lax expectations for players, which then becomes a narrow funnel of hotbed issues.  We've had our share of toxicity and it comes down to ds just wants to play. So we do anything we can to get him into good environments. His team right now has kids from all over because it's just a good, happy place to be. I'm not so sure roller hockey has that many options to move around, and if this is a toxic place for your dd, it might be worth pursuing a few sideways options like field or ice, if you have it. But in our experience, teams that don't mesh don't end up being worth the hassle for the coaches and they quit.  We've watched two girls' hockey teams fizzle out because of bad leadership.  The girls just play with the boys or go to serious club teams, but the name of the girls' teams have become a negative thought in many people's minds.  Parents are less likely to sign up for the lower levels knowing what waits above, so they just start the move early.  I don't want that for you guys, but it's something to consider.

 

I feel slightly guilty because this year ds is "playing down" even though we didn't mean for him to.  He missed tryouts and they put him on the lowest level.  He's a hot mess of anxiety, so it's really where he needed to be emotionally, but we have had the polite inquiries about his training and age.  This is the first year we've been able to install 'conditional rewards'. He got his first hat trick, something he worked toward for years.  Then it became "get a goal, assist, and check someone."  Now it's "use your size to open the ice and get it to 8, who's ready at the net, or back to 27 at the blue line' .  He played with a kid last year who got paid for each goal so there was no way anyone else was getting to touch the puck.  It really put a bad taste in everyone's mouth.  We want ds to keep seeing this as a team effort.  But also, it's up to his coaches to help that along, too, and that needs to be reinforced by the league.

I thought about this, actually - the lawyer thing. I took screenshots of the rules and division description just in case I need them for legal purposes. We considered ice but it's too late for dd to join a team at this point in the season. And yes, we've lost so many coaches because of the toxic environment and horrid leadership.

We also have a player whose dad pays him for goals. This is also the dad who yells, "NEVER PASS - (insert boy's name here), NEVER PASS!!!" And the coach, when approached about this, did nothing. So the parents took things into our own hands (nicely). The boy now passes and we ignore the idiot dad who is convinced his kid is the next Olympian. It's pretty bad.

[BakersDozen]

On 2/3/2024 at 12:27 PM, wathe said:

This tells me everything I need to know about the program culture.  Blech.

16u age elite players who currently play on an 18u team, being sent to 16u tournaments as ringers to help win games and boost their individual stats, while still playing full-time on their 18u team.  Displacing 16u developmental level players who have put in the work, and built a team of their own.

Does this program accept government funding or other non-profit org funding?  This sort of funding usually comes with conditions that stipulate youth development goals: ie advancement of education, beneficial to the community, eg "focus on building participation and engagement in recreation and sport to enhance the broader health and well-being of the community".  If the program is in violation of its funding agreement, then that's actionable

Is the program itself a non-profit or charity for tax purposes?  There will be similar community engagement and youth development criteria.  If the program's behaviour jeopardizes its tax status, that's very actionable.

Is the program under the umbrella of a state or national sports org?  Most youth sports in Canada are, as it facilitates insurance and administration; I imagine the US might be similar.  What are their org mission, vision and standards?  Fair-play policies for developmental levels?  and if it's anything like the sports we're involved with, there will be all kinds of diversity, inclusion, development of athlete-as-a-whole-person, sportsmanship, integrity, dignitiy, kindness,  growth and development content.

Most of this info will be google-able.

My approach with a similar situation has been 1) put some parent skin into the game - attend annual meetings, get involved as a parent volunteer/manager, get onto the bench as a trainer.  This gets you Street Cred.  2) establish myself as a Person Who Knows The Things and Is Paying Attention: familiarize self with org constitution, standards, values and mission, codes of conduct, all  at the club and umbrella org level (provincial and national, if relevant), funding model, legal/tax status (non-profit vs charity), strings attached to funding.  Go to annual meeting where budget is presented.    

You nailed it regarding the elite players having their own teams and why they are playing "down." It's pathetic because one of the moms is thrilled that the "local talent" is coming back to the program (these players bailed years ago for other, better options). But these elite players don't give two hoots about anything local; this is all about them and their on status, awards, etc. And they have no plan on staying - the parents have made that clear. They're still signed up with a very elite travel team; this is just "filler" for them.

I don't know about the funding - I'll find out, though.

Parents are not allowed at any meetings. The managers/admins have been put in place by the vote of 2 people - no one else was allowed to run for the Board and no one is allowed at those meetings. Parents can sign up as coaches, but I promise you they'd never let me on the bench because they know I wouldn't let the players be selfish or unfair. Right now they're just hoping I'll take my players and go away. I'm definitely the Pain in the Butt Who Reads Everything and Understands the Rules. But I can't change anything - the entire organization is too closed up, and most of the parents don't care enough to actually do anything.

[HomeAgain]

8 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

 We considered ice but it's too late for dd to join a team at this point in the season.
 

Read below only if you think she might want ice.  If not, feel free to ignore completely.

 

Keep your eye open.  Around here, 3v3 begins in late spring and runs through summer.  It's not a full league, just for fun and keeping up with skills, but the kids who play really enjoy it.  If your dd is like my ds, though, it may not be the best option.  DS hates the chaos factor of it and how the positions are undefined. He decided to take time off and then spend time at a summer skill camp instead, where he works more individually.
Also, you can reach out to teams and see if they'd let her practice with them once or twice to see if she wants that avenue.  Tryouts for next season should be happening soon, and it's nice to get the lay of the land.  Around here tryouts for ice are the same month as the last part of the season, sometimes overlapping with final games.  Measurements for jerseys and socks are taken at the same time for the bulk order that needs to be placed.

[BakersDozen]

An update: The rosters for the upcoming tournament were released, yet there were 2 in the 18U division which were glaringly not posted. Until today. The player for whom many of us were hoping 16U would happen - a kid who wasn't deemed good enough (or so we were all told) to be on 18U and whose mom (the team "parent") just sent a super upbeat, "cheerleader-ish" email to all of the families saying how wonderful it is to have higher level players on the team and let's just show positivity to our players - her kid is on an 18U team. So are a few others which were not expected.

I should have confessed, I suppose, after I dropped a load of swear words any sailor would be proud of...but I didn't. And I won't. Because I cannot believe the hypocrisy and underhanded way in which this was done. Rosters posted at the last minute and clear indication that 16U is nothing more than warm-up for 18U (which has its games right after 16U).

Oh, and the whole thing about needing to add to the roster because of numbers - B.S. Some of the teams have FIVE players. Two divisions have only two teams. This was about not saying 'no' to the higher level players and parents, and keeping things quiet about just how many higher level players are on 16U as well as 18U.

I feel...ugly angry.

[BakersDozen]

19 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

Read below only if you think she might want ice.  If not, feel free to ignore completely.

 

Keep your eye open.  Around here, 3v3 begins in late spring and runs through summer.  It's not a full league, just for fun and keeping up with skills, but the kids who play really enjoy it.  If your dd is like my ds, though, it may not be the best option.  DS hates the chaos factor of it and how the positions are undefined. He decided to take time off and then spend time at a summer skill camp instead, where he works more individually.
Also, you can reach out to teams and see if they'd let her practice with them once or twice to see if she wants that avenue.  Tryouts for next season should be happening soon, and it's nice to get the lay of the land.  Around here tryouts for ice are the same month as the last part of the season, sometimes overlapping with final games.  Measurements for jerseys and socks are taken at the same time for the bulk order that needs to be placed.

She would love to do ice, but the age restrictions are against her (she just turned 17) for everything we've found. But I will keep looking.