State laws that affect transgender adults and how does this play out?

[SKL]

2 hours ago, PronghornD said:

What exactly is the pro-trans community? Are you talking about an ordinary mom who loves her kid? An ordinary kid who wants to be themself without worrying about gender roles? An activist who is working for trans rights? An ordinary citizen who wants all people to be free?

I don't think that pro-trans people overall have an increased focus on outdated gender roles. Some do; some don't. And non-pro-trans people are the ones doing big gender reveals and such. That certainly doesn't come from the trans community.

I think non-binary people in particular are not generally focused on outdated gender roles. My kid tells me, for example, that clothing does not have gender.

I was referring to whatever group has been encouraging young people to question their gender/sex every time they realize that something they like is different from whatever the gender stereotypes were 100 years ago.  This has created issues that never needed to exist.  A person with a penis can like dolls and pink and ruffles and still use the freaking men's room.

Rather than trying to insist that people with penises aren't men (and need medical interventions that further confuse the matter), why not continue the nice thing we had going, i.e., the message liking dolls, or pink, or ruffles, or whatever doesn't make a man less of a man?  I really don't understand the motivation.  I'm not gonna make any friends by saying where my mind goes on this motivation thing.  But if we could just let people be who they are all the way, maybe that would be better for everyone.

And again - I'm super pro unisex bathrooms everywhere.  By all means pee when you need to pee.  I'd love it if there were a general nationwide push for all public facilities to provide real privacy and the ability to help whoever one needs to help.

[Ginevra]

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Note the wide gap of empathy between the following two positions:

"Don't worry, I don't think you're likely to get arrested for using a bathroom while traveling in the scope of your employment, and if you do, we won't fire you right away, we'll make an investigation." and

"We would never send you to a state where you could potentially be arrested for something like simply using the bathroom in between conference sessions."

As I’m sure you know, I can’t say either of these things. I am not an attorney. Even if I was, I could not make a blanket statement of what the employer will or won’t do. I made every possible effort to reassure the person that the two things they were fearful of - criminal prosecution and the impact of arrest on employment - were not likely to play out according to their worst fears. I explain what was the likeliest thing to happen. That is the best I can do because, as you know, the law does not speak to hypotheticals because each case has its own facts. 

[SKL]

Also - allowing everyone to choose between the ladies' and the mens' is overwhelmingly pro-male.  A female has no real choice in the matter.  She is, on average, born smaller and physically weaker.  She can't decide "I identify as the Incredible Hulk" in order to be safer in a public restroom or locker room.

We need privacy and safety for all.

[PronghornD]

23 minutes ago, SKL said:

I was referring to whatever group has been encouraging young people to question their gender/sex every time they realize that something they like is different from whatever the gender stereotypes were 100 years ago.  This has created issues that never needed to exist.  A person with a penis can like dolls and pink and ruffles and still use the freaking men's room.

 

I still don't know who this group is. Maybe some psychologists?

[maize]

The current trans movement has absolutely moved us backwards when it comes to gender stereotypes. Young people are in some cases being explicitly taught that how male or female they are depends on which stereotypes they identify more with--remember that gender spectrum graphic with Barbie on one end and G.I. Joe on the other? If you're a female who would rather wear combat boots than high heels, you must not really be a girl.

I hear young women in my sphere bemoaning the fact that if they try a pixie cut people will assume they identify as something other than a woman. They tell me it's fine for me as a middle-aged woman but that among their own peers choices of dress and hairstyle are seen as identity signals. 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, maize said:

The current trans movement has absolutely moved us backwards when it comes to gender stereotypes. Young people are in some cases being explicitly taught that how male or female they are depends on which stereotypes they identify more with--remember that gender spectrum graphic with Barbie on one end and G.I. Joe on the other? If you're a female who would rather wear combat boots than high heels, you must not really be a girl.

I hear young women in my sphere bemoaning the fact that if they try a pixie cut people will assume they identify as something other than a woman. They tell me it's fine for me as a middle-aged woman but that among their own peers choices of dress and hairstyle are seen as identity signals. 

You're assumption is that the 'trans movement' advocates people who have pixie cuts identify as trans, "in some cases"? In which cases is this taught? That is antithetical to my/my kid's lived experience. She was certainly never pressured to ID as trans. It's not who she is or how she feels. Being trans is not a black cultural norm or trend (denial/blindness is). My kid has a buzz cut and prefers young 'male' styles of dress. Kids (in general) are channeling their parents' biases IMO. If your community is full of bias, that may color your experience. My perception is that communities (we live in such a region) that prioritize conformity and stereotypical norms have a really hard time with anyone who steps outside those norms, regardless of their sexual preferences.

Having never been a stereotypical girly-girl, and not growing up in this region, I was not bound by and never encouraged my child to believe that was the only 'right' way to be a girl/woman. Grungeland was special. I see that only in retrospect and feel sad for those who missed out. I/we didn't define femininity by appearance or mannerisms and I encouraged DD's exploration (in appearance and relationships) without judgment. She is 100% gay, CONFIDENT, and that is OK with us, b/c no dysmorphia involved. Who is in your sphere? What values/messages do they hold or promote? Have you critically explored that aspect?

Edited January 30 by Sneezyone

[Kassia]

I haven't been reading this thread, but thought of it when I saw this news and wanted to share:

the FL DMV announced today that Transgender Floridians can no longer change the listed gender on their driver licenses. Further, they say that someone "misrepresenting" their gender, meaning not using their sex assigned at birth, constitutes "criminal and civil" fraud.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/01/30/florida-transgender-drivers-license-change/72409088007/

😞

Edited January 31 by Kassia

[Pam in CT]

young person worried about what people out there might THINK about pixie cuts vs "current trans movement" moving us backwards by exhorting pixie-rockers to transition

46 minutes ago, maize said:

The current trans movement has absolutely moved us backwards when it comes to gender stereotypes. Young people are in some cases being explicitly taught that how male or female they are depends on which stereotypes they identify more with--remember that gender spectrum graphic with Barbie on one end and G.I. Joe on the other? If you're a female who would rather wear combat boots than high heels, you must not really be a girl.

I hear young women in my sphere bemoaning the fact that if they try a pixie cut people will assume they identify as something other than a woman. They tell me it's fine for me as a middle-aged woman but that among their own peers choices of dress and hairstyle are seen as identity signals. 

I dunno Maize. 

Although we live in very different geographies and social groups, I *think* I recognize some of what you're saying here about expectations around clothing and hair styles being more rigidly circumscribed now than 50 years ago. I barely knew what gay even meant when I was in high school, and ricocheted freely between combat boots and Bean jackets on Monday, full-on Stevie Nicks beads and lace on Tuesday, and Dockside & Chino Prep on Wednesday. I started high school with long flowing locks, went pixie for a couple years in the middle because Dorothy Hamill, then attempted, to spectacular and hilariously photo-documented failure, to grow it all out via Farah Fawcett. Every day, a new persona.

Both my cis and my queer daughter concur that for white high school females on the east coast if these days, anything other than long flowing locks does indeed signal not-cis.  So in that sense I also see something of what you're talking about.

They don't interpret that pressure as coming from the trans community though. They receive that pressure as coming from the other direction, from peers who want to PRESERVE traditional roles, and enforce compliance with it with the usual Mean Girl what are you, [slur]? comments or SM yuck or etc.

It's hard to discern what really is shaping that what young people think that other people think about them.  The true origins of such adolescent agonistes is pretty hard to unravel.

 

And of course another real dynamic is: once the ball starts rolling, it accelerates. Now that pixie cuts have become a signal, many young women who actually *wish to signal* that they are lesbian (not trans) will opt to *use the signal.* Because it's convenient and efficient and (so far at least) not illegal.

But let's watch those governors: given the new FL law, could a busybody DMV employee decide that a teenage girl rocking a pixie amounts to "misrepresenting gender"?  That's where emboldenment leads.

 

[Sneezyone]

16 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

young person worried about what people out there might THINK about pixie cuts vs "current trans movement" moving us backwards by exhorting pixie-rockers to transition

I dunno Maize. 

Although we live in very different geographies and social groups, I *think* I recognize some of what you're saying here about expectations around clothing and hair styles being more rigidly circumscribed now than 50 years ago. I barely knew what gay even meant when I was in high school, and ricocheted freely between combat boots and Bean jackets on Monday, full-on Stevie Nicks beads and lace on Tuesday, and Dockside & Chino Prep on Wednesday. I started high school with long flowing locks, went pixie for a couple years in the middle because Dorothy Hamill, then attempted, to spectacular and hilariously photo-documented failure, to grow it all out via Farah Fawcett. Every day, a new persona.

Both my cis and my queer daughter concur that for white high school females on the east coast if these days, anything other than long flowing locks does indeed signal not-cis.  So in that sense I also see something of what you're talking about.

They don't interpret that pressure as coming from the trans community though. They receive that pressure as coming from the other direction, from peers who want to PRESERVE traditional roles, and enforce compliance with it with the usual Mean Girl what are you, [slur]? comments or SM yuck or etc.

It's hard to discern what really is shaping that what young people think that other people think about them.  The true origins of such adolescent agonistes is pretty hard to unravel.

 

And of course another real dynamic is: once the ball starts rolling, it accelerates. Now that pixie cuts have become a signal, many young women who actually *wish to signal* that they are lesbian (not trans) will opt to *use the signal.* Because it's convenient and efficient and (so far at least) not illegal.

But let's watch those governors: given the new FL law, could a busybody DMV employee decide that a teenage girl rocking a pixie amounts to "misrepresenting gender"?  That's where emboldenment leads.

 

Indeed. My DD told me that rocking shaved sides and/or an undercut as a junior/senior cheerleader was 'a signal' (TM) but I still encouraged/supported her in it because it was authentic to her and she's FREAKING BEAUTIFUL regardless of how she styles her hair. I do not get the sense people reporting 'trans community' hegemony are similarly flexible and supportive of different gender presentations. Open to being corrected if wrong.

Edited January 31 by Sneezyone

[maize]

I never mentioned any trans hegemony.

But a movement, yes--the movement that has a huge percentage of teenage girls especially obsessing about identity and turning all their angst to discussions of identity-- their own and everyone else's.  

It's absolutely pushing boxes and stereotypes.

I'm very,  very unimpressed by gender stereotypes.  I'm a female who never cared for fashion, can't be bothered with makeup,  and has rarely had interest in anything typically associated with femininity. I was one of 9 female cadets in an ROTC corps of over 200 in college and definitely preferred combat boots and short hair (so much more convenient,  except for the annoyance of having to get it cut frequently!) I've never owned a pair of heels. I do wear dresses of the comfy variety because comfort is about the only thing I care about in clothing.

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with whether I am male or female.

Edited January 31 by maize

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, maize said:

I never mentioned any trans hegemony.

But a movement, yes--the movement that has a huge percentage of teenage girls especially obsessing about identity and turning all their angst to discussions of identity-- their own and everyone else's.  

It's absolutely pushing boxes and stereotypes.

I'm very,  very unimpressed by gender stereotypes.  I'm a female who never cared for fashion, can't be bothered with makeup,  and has rarely had interest in anything typically associated with femininity. I was one of 9 female cadets in an ROTC corps of over 200 in college and definitely preferred combat boots and short hair (so much more convenient,  except for the annoyance of having to get ot cut frequently!) I've never owned a pair of heels. I do wear dresses of the comfy variety because comfort is about the only thing I care about in clothing.

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with whether I am male or female.

And you identify this movement by?? Can anyone (not just you) definitively establish who this movement includes (even a supposition will do)? Nomenclature aside, those espousing this view (of 'a movement' or in my view 'hegemony') identify/classify its adherents/proponents by?

WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE insisting that womanhood or girlhood be expressed in stereotypical ways? Your description of YOURSELF also describes MY KID, who put 100+ Marine Corps wanna be's (largely male) to shame, WITHOUT PREP, with her officer PT exam and her dad in attendance. It's not either/or, and every person who espouses the view that it is makes kids like mine, prime candidates for military leadership roles, feel unwelcome and decline. Selfishly, do you know how much money I would have saved if my kid accepted the offer?!?! I'm not mad at her choice, I'm mad at the country that made her feel like there was only one viable option for a 'girl'.

Too many hard questions destined to go unanswered. Nuance is HARD. The post and run, strike and retreat is tiresome. If there'e merit in the position, defend it...with fact.

Edited January 31 by Sneezyone

[PronghornD]

9 minutes ago, maize said:

I never mentioned any trans hegemony.

But a movement, yes--the movement that has a huge percentage of teenage girls especially obsessing about identity and turning all their angst to discussions of identity-- their own and everyone else's.  

It's absolutely pushing boxes and stereotypes.

I'm very,  very unimpressed by gender stereotypes.  I'm a female who never cared for fashion, can't be bothered with makeup,  and has rarely had interest in anything typically associated with femininity. I was one of 9 female cadets in an ROTC corps of over 200 in college and definitely preferred combat boots and short hair (so much more convenient,  except for the annoyance of having to get ot cut frequently!) I've never owned a pair of heels. I do wear dresses of the comfy variety because comfort is about the only thing I care about in clothing.

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with whether I am male or female.

I don't doubt that young people, just like we did once upon a time, have some poorly thought-through ideas. Yes, they do pressure other people about hair. My child had extremely long hair as a teen and was advised by others that it was too long. Of course, that had nothing to do with trans and everything to do with conformity.

But we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, young people spend a lot of time thinking about their identity. But sometimes that identity is trans and does deserve some thought. So, we need a world that preserves space in society for those that are trans, in addition to a society that does not emphasize gender stereotypes so much. I say we start by refusing to attend all those silly gender reveals!

I do think that there is a lot going on that has nothing to do with gender stereotypes too. My child is not stereotypically male in interests, although they identify more male than female. Being trans may be sometimes about stereotypes, but often it is not.

[Pam in CT]

omg those %$@33!! gender reveals

1 hour ago, PronghornD said:

...nothing to do with trans and everything to do with conformity.

...we need a world that preserves space in society for those that are trans, in addition to a society that does not emphasize gender stereotypes so much. I say we start by refusing to attend all those silly gender reveals!

Right. 

what.is.THAT.new.phenomenon.about???!!

The baby isn't even BORN yet and we need -- not merely to KNOW -- but this ginormous honking celebration of which binary bucket the baby is meant to exemplify?

 

( ... paging Greta Gerwig...)

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

omg those %$@33!! gender reveals

Right. 

what.is.THAT.new.phenomenon.about???!!

The baby isn't even BORN yet and we need -- not merely to KNOW -- but this ginormous honking celebration of which binary bucket the baby is meant to exemplify?

 

( ... paging Greta Gerwig...)

This is a total change of topic but I will tell an anecdotal tale that is marginally related. 🙂 

When DH and I told our family that we were hoping to find out the sex of our child during a ultrasound, one relative was HORRIFIED. She was vehement that it would ruin the "fun" of being surprised and she insisted that we not tell *her* the results of the ultrasound. She wanted to wait until our baby was born to find out. (Didn't work out, as everyone else knew and it slipped out at some point.)

Bizarre, right? 

I think people want to capture the "surprise!" of a sex reveal at birth with the convenience of knowing ahead of time. Also presents. And a party. And Pinterest worthy pics.

I am not in favor of the trend for many reasons. People are weird. 🙂 

Edited January 31 by MercyA

[freesia]

12 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

young person worried about what people out there might THINK about pixie cuts vs "current trans movement" moving us backwards by exhorting pixie-rockers to transition

I dunno Maize. 

Although we live in very different geographies and social groups, I *think* I recognize some of what you're saying here about expectations around clothing and hair styles being more rigidly circumscribed now than 50 years ago. I barely knew what gay even meant when I was in high school, and ricocheted freely between combat boots and Bean jackets on Monday, full-on Stevie Nicks beads and lace on Tuesday, and Dockside & Chino Prep on Wednesday. I started high school with long flowing locks, went pixie for a couple years in the middle because Dorothy Hamill, then attempted, to spectacular and hilariously photo-documented failure, to grow it all out via Farah Fawcett. Every day, a new persona.

Both my cis and my queer daughter concur that for white high school females on the east coast if these days, anything other than long flowing locks does indeed signal not-cis.  So in that sense I also see something of what you're talking about.

They don't interpret that pressure as coming from the trans community though. They receive that pressure as coming from the other direction, from peers who want to PRESERVE traditional roles, and enforce compliance with it with the usual Mean Girl what are you, [slur]? comments or SM yuck or etc.

It's hard to discern what really is shaping that what young people think that other people think about them.  The true origins of such adolescent agonistes is pretty hard to unravel.

 

And of course another real dynamic is: once the ball starts rolling, it accelerates. Now that pixie cuts have become a signal, many young women who actually *wish to signal* that they are lesbian (not trans) will opt to *use the signal.* Because it's convenient and efficient and (so far at least) not illegal.

But let's watch those governors: given the new FL law, could a busybody DMV employee decide that a teenage girl rocking a pixie amounts to "misrepresenting gender"?  That's where emboldenment leads.

 

My cis dd has absolutely gotten the pressure from two sets of trans kid communities bc of her choice of hairstyle and clothes. Furthermore, neither group would listen to her assertions that she was not trans or non-binary. Both groups were east coast. It has 100% affected how she has begun to dress and present herself. She is very frustrated by the whole thing.

[Dmmetler]

All subcultures tend to dress alike, even the more "counterculture" ones, so I could see trans kids happily embracing someone who dresses like them and then being surprised that they aren't trans, too, because they ARE a minority. But I don't think that's "pressure to be trans" so much as subculture identifiers. I mean, my emo/goth kid found friends in college by looking for people who were dressed similarly and talking to them-and probably would have been very surprised had someone wearing a MCR t-shirt and spiked collar insisted that they weren't emo! 

 

I cannot imagine a PS OR general homeschool setting where trans kids are such a large majority (or seen so positively) that cis kids feel pressured to be trans to fit in. In general, such spaces are ones created by the kids and their families themselves, and if you're there and you see trans as such a negative thing that you'd change how you dress to be NOT seen as such, you're in the wrong place! 

 

I CAN imagine a gender non-conforming teen assumed to be trans would be bullied by cis kids and teachers, though, because that's why basically every trans kid who is homeschooled in my studio currently is homeschooled-which leads back to the original topic of this thread, because the current laws here absolutely enable that bullying-90% of the people in the school may not have any ill intent in using the person's birth certificate name and pronouns to match, but there is a certain percentage that will use it just to get a reaction from the kid. And at least here, the person who is trying to get a rise and actively bullying is often an adult. 

 

 

[SHP]

So I am following this correctly, the view is that it is only the recent transgender awareness that has caused teens to apply peer pressure to other teens about how they dress and what their hair looks like? 

 

Just making sure. 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, SHP said:

So I am following this correctly, the view is that it is only the recent transgender awareness that has caused teens to apply peer pressure to other teens about how they dress and what their hair looks like? 

 

Just making sure. 

My sense is that the social approbation anyone who strays too far from prescribed gender norms experiences (which can happen anywhere but is a predominant sentiment in various locales) forces a dichotomous view of gender and sexuality that is more rigid (and wouldn’t otherwise exist). I don’t think it’s new, remember the hew and cry over Prince’s androgyny? It’s just more vocal, known, and toxic now because adults aren’t pushing back or ignoring it, they’re embracing/doubling down on it, and social media amplifies it. Kids will do what they always do/reject it using whatever means are at their disposal.

Edited January 31 by Sneezyone

[SHP]

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

My sense is that the social approbation of anyone who strays too far from prescribed gender norms experiences (which can happen anywhere but is a predominant sentiment in various locales) forces a dichotomous view of gender and sexuality that wouldn’t otherwise exist. I don’t think it’s new, remember the be hew and cry over Prince? It’s just more vocal, known, and toxic.

It must be a regional thing. I remember being a teen and a pixie cut meant being assumed to be a lesbian.

I never followed the cool clothes trends and the environment of bullying and harrassment was vocal and toxic. 

I am just trying to figure out why there is uproar of this when no one blinked an eye about pixie cut = lesbian or the wrong brand of jeans = bullying. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, SHP said:

It must be a regional thing. I remember being a teen and a pixie cut meant being assumed to be a lesbian.

I never followed the cool clothes trends and the environment of bullying and harrassment was vocal and toxic. 

I am just trying to figure out why there is uproar of this when no one blinked an eye about pixie cut = lesbian or the wrong brand of jeans = bullying. 

It’s politically expedient.

[SHP]

38 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s politically expedient.

Like being assumed to be a lesbian was back in 19....damn I am old. 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

I cannot imagine a PS OR general homeschool setting where trans kids are such a large majority (or seen so positively) that cis kids feel pressured to be trans to fit in. In general, such spaces are ones created by the kids and their families themselves, and if you're there and you see trans as such a negative thing that you'd change how you dress to be NOT seen as such, you're in the wrong place!

Maybe it isn't happening where you live.  My kids' PS community has definitely done this.  Every time my daughter wore baggy clothes to school - "are you sure you aren't a guy?"  "I swear you're a guy."  Multiple times every day.  No makeup?  Probably a trans guy.  Shorter hair?  Trans guy.  I don't think it was intended as bullying, but it was not a kind thing to do at all.  It caused real problems.  (I haven't heard much of this in the past year, so I am hoping the fad has died down.)

I've posted about this before.  I was initially pleased with the fact that my kids' high school population was open and accepting of LGBT+ kids.  When my [cis, feminine] 9th grader told me she had at least 7 good friends who were LGBT+, I said, "that means you're someone people feel they can trust."  But then I found out that roughly half of the kids they know thought they were LGBT+ (especially girls).  And then I started hearing the "are you sure you're not a guy" with my own ears, frequently.

In our case, I'm pretty sure it came/comes from social media channeled through the high school population.  I don't think it helped that school personnel started asking kids about their gender identity as if they need to question this.  The kids aren't informed that actual gender dysphoria is very rare.

Not sure why a frumpy mom like me would sit here and make up stuff like this.

[Sneezyone]

19 minutes ago, SHP said:

Like being assumed to be a lesbian was back in 19....damn I am old. 

Same. Nothing new under the sun.

[Wheres Toto]

I know quite a few gender non-conforming, LGBTQ+ kids/teens, and they are telling me the opposite of what some here are saying.   The short hair, boys in skirts, etc is partially them protesting the conservative (in particular Christian conservative) idea that girls need to have long hair, wear makeup, look feminine and dress in a particular way (think Duggars), and boys need to be tough and sporty and dress within certain guidelines.   Some of it's protest, some is trying out different styles (like I think we all did at that age).    The pressure doesn't seem to be coming from the LGBTQ+ community, at least around here although there certainly may be an extent of being seen as one of the group if dressed/appearing a certain way.  

I am in NJ so things are pretty accepted around here.  My daughter is gay and my son (non-binary but okay being called son/he/him) occasionally wears skirts to school but attends a liberal CC where out of about 9 different professors has had 2 that are trans.   Nobody even comments on his long hair and skirts (and it's not because they think he is a cis girl).  

[Pam in CT]

Kids in high school and middle school have enforced conformity since the creation of high schools and middle schools.  Using pleasant soft coercion (I know! Let's have everyone in our group wear ____ on Friday!) and subtler less pleasant coercion (raised eyebrows and side-eye) and outright Mean Girl coercion (wow, you're really wearing THAT) and outright bullying coercion. None of that is at.all.new, my mom endured it in the days of poodle skirts and cardigan sweaters. There have been tight cliques and there have been somewhat looser outcast/resistance alliances and respective associated dress&makeup codes and coercive pressure to conform with the Correct Code since, again, well before my mom attended high school in the 1950s.

And it ought not surprise that the specifics of particular dress&makeup codes evolve over time. I don't know HOW a kid who showed up to high school in the poodle skirt/collared blouse/cardigan/bright red lipstick that my mother rocked in her high school days (oh my word, that off-to-the-sock hop pic) but There Would Be Feedback.

So I'm not arguing AT ALL that how a pixie cut "lands" within all that ghastly social pressure is different when my daughter did it, than when I did it.  She confirms, and her cis sister also confirms, it lands differently.

 

That it LANDS differently doesn't answer anything more than the obvious: fashion changes, social groupings change, specific in-group signals change.

What is evergreen is the twinned desire of that age OTOH to belong to a group and OTO to express themselves as "individual."  And maybe also an arguably narcissitic, certainly inaccurate & unhelpful conviction that everyone is looking at me, evaluating me, judging me.

 

Gah, there is not enough money in this world to pay me to be 16 again.

 

Edited January 31 by Pam in CT
typos

[freesia]

22 minutes ago, SKL said:

Maybe it isn't happening where you live.  My kids' PS community has definitely done this.  Every time my daughter wore baggy clothes to school - "are you sure you aren't a guy?"  "I swear you're a guy."  Multiple times every day.  No makeup?  Probably a trans guy.  Shorter hair?  Trans guy.  I don't think it was intended as bullying, but it was not a kind thing to do at all.  It caused real problems.  (I haven't heard much of this in the past year, so I am hoping the fad has died down.)

I've posted about this before.  I was initially pleased with the fact that my kids' high school population was open and accepting of LGBT+ kids.  When my [cis, feminine] 9th grader told me she had at least 7 good friends who were LGBT+, I said, "that means you're someone people feel they can trust."  But then I found out that roughly half of the kids they know thought they were LGBT+ (especially girls).  And then I started hearing the "are you sure you're not a guy" with my own ears, frequently.

In our case, I'm pretty sure it came/comes from social media channeled through the high school population.  I don't think it helped that school personnel started asking kids about their gender identity as if they need to question this.  The kids aren't informed that actual gender dysphoria is very rare.

Not sure why a frumpy mom like me would sit here and make up stuff like this.

Yes, this is what I am talking about. It feels like my lived experience is being discounted because it doesn’t fit a certain narrative. When my dd is having her identity constantly questioned over and over again by the same people, it is harassment. When it happens again in another setting (300 miles away), it becomes hard to agree with people who say it’s not the LBTGQ community who does it or it’s not pressure. Kids are kids and conformity is King for them. I get why it’s happening, but it’s not limited to just one group, nor is it experienced as benign by my dd. 

[maize]

3 minutes ago, freesia said:

I get why it’s happening, but it’s not limited to just one group, nor is it experienced as benign by my dd. 

And: it is doing the opposite of breaking down stereotypes. It is reinforcing stereotypes.

 

[SHP]

17 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Kids in high school and middle school have enforced conformity since the creation of high schools and middle schools.  Using pleasant soft coercion (I know! Let's have everyone in our group where ____ on Friday!) and subtler less pleasant coercion (raised eyebrows and side-eye) and outright Mean Girl coercion (wow, you're really wearing THAT) and outright bullying coercion. None of that is at.all.new, my mom endured it in the days of poodle skirts and cardigan sweaters. There have been tight cliques and there have been somewhat looser outcast/resistance alliances and respective associated dress&makeup codes and coercive pressure to conform with the Correct Code since, again, well before my mom attended high school in the 1950s.

And it ought not surprise that the specifics of particular dress&makeup codes evolve over time. I don't know HOW a kid how showed up to high school in the poodle skirt/collared blouse/cardigan/bright red lipstick that my mother rocked in her high school days (oh my word, that off-to-the-sock hop pic) but There Would Be Feedback.

So I'm not arguing AT ALL that how a pixie cut "lands" within all that ghastly social pressure is different when my daughter did it, than when I did it.  She confirms, and her cis sister also confirms, it lands differently.

 

That it LANDS differently doesn't answer anything more than the obvious: fashion changes, social groupings change, specific in-group signals change.

What is evergreen is the twinned desire of that age OTOH to belong to a group and OTO to express themselves as "individual."  And maybe also an arguable narcissitic, certainly inaccurate & unhelpful conviction that everyone is looking at me, evaluating me, judging me.

 

Gah, there is not enough money in this world to pay me to be 16 again.

 

Teenage culture is toxic. That isn't new.

[Amira]

I have seen dramatically different responses to clothing and hairstyles that are perceived to be non-gender-conforming in various places we have lived in the last 10 or so years (several different  countries, a conservative US location, and a liberal US location). In my experience, the environments that are more open to people being trans are *much* less likely to enforce or encourage gender-conforming dress and hairstyles than environments that are leery of trans identity. 

I am so glad that we are in a more liberal environment now because my adult trans family member isn't harassed or misgendered and my cis teenager can wear whatever he wants to school and try out longer hairstyles if he wants to.  I can wear pants in a traditional dresses-only-for-women space with far less comment here than in a more conservative area. 

There's always social pressure to conform, but for me, it feels very different depending on where we live.  I've seen no evidence of an extensive trans movement that is trying to enforce gender stereotypes on anyone.  

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, Amira said:

I have seen dramatically different responses to clothing and hairstyles that are perceived to be non-gender-conforming in various places we have lived in the last 10 or so years (several different  countries, a conservative US location, and a liberal US location). In my experience, the environments that are more open to people being trans are *much* less likely to enforce or encourage gender-conforming dress and hairstyles than environments that are leery of trans identity. 

I am so glad that we are in a more liberal environment now because my adult trans family member isn't harassed or misgendered and my cis teenager can wear whatever he wants to school and try out longer hairstyles if he wants to.  I can wear pants in a traditional dresses-only-for-women space with far less comment here than in a more conservative area. 

There's always social pressure to conform, but for me, it feels very different depending on where we live.  I've seen no evidence of an extensive trans movement that is trying to enforce gender stereotypes on anyone.  

It’s equally telling that folks reporting this totally unusual phenomena (snark) won’t say what their community dynamics are like, what the prevailing sentiment is, because that does matter.

Edited January 31 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

34 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Kids in high school and middle school have enforced conformity since the creation of high schools and middle schools.  Using pleasant soft coercion (I know! Let's have everyone in our group wear ____ on Friday!) and subtler less pleasant coercion (raised eyebrows and side-eye) and outright Mean Girl coercion (wow, you're really wearing THAT) and outright bullying coercion. None of that is at.all.new, my mom endured it in the days of poodle skirts and cardigan sweaters. There have been tight cliques and there have been somewhat looser outcast/resistance alliances and respective associated dress&makeup codes and coercive pressure to conform with the Correct Code since, again, well before my mom attended high school in the 1950s.

And it ought not surprise that the specifics of particular dress&makeup codes evolve over time. I don't know HOW a kid who showed up to high school in the poodle skirt/collared blouse/cardigan/bright red lipstick that my mother rocked in her high school days (oh my word, that off-to-the-sock hop pic) but There Would Be Feedback.

So I'm not arguing AT ALL that how a pixie cut "lands" within all that ghastly social pressure is different when my daughter did it, than when I did it.  She confirms, and her cis sister also confirms, it lands differently.

 

That it LANDS differently doesn't answer anything more than the obvious: fashion changes, social groupings change, specific in-group signals change.

What is evergreen is the twinned desire of that age OTOH to belong to a group and OTO to express themselves as "individual."  And maybe also an arguably narcissitic, certainly inaccurate & unhelpful conviction that everyone is looking at me, evaluating me, judging me.

 

Gah, there is not enough money in this world to pay me to be 16 again.

 

But I think what's different is that some of the influential adults in the kids' lives are buying into what would otherwise be temporary identity fads.

In high school, someone thought I was gay because I wore green on Thursdays.  My mom didn't respond by affirming that I was a lesbian and isn't that wonderful.  Had someone said I must be a guy kuz I wore men's jeans and sneakers (they fit me better), my mom wouldn't have put me in trans affirming therapy, and we wouldn't have been discussing hormones and top surgery.  My mom would have said "how silly, do you want to know what they used to call me in 9th grade?"

[SKL]

34 minutes ago, maize said:

And: it is doing the opposite of breaking down stereotypes. It is reinforcing stereotypes.

This is what our kids need to understand better.

Edited January 31 by SKL

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SKL said:

But I think what's different is that some of the influential adults in the kids' lives are buying into what would otherwise be temporary identity fads.

In high school, someone thought I was gay because I wore green on Thursdays.  My mom didn't respond by affirming that I was a lesbian and isn't that wonderful.  Had someone said I must be a guy kuz I wore men's jeans and sneakers (they fit me better), my mom wouldn't have put me in trans affirming therapy, and we wouldn't have been discussing hormones and top surgery.  My mom would have said "how silly, do you want to know what they used to call me in 9th grade?"

This is EXACTLY what I just wrote about. Adults both preemptively decrying and reflexively responding to juvenile attempts at differentiation with unnecessary harshness.

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s equally telling that folks reporting this totally unusual phenomena (snark) won’t say what their community dynamics are like, what the prevailing sentiment is, because that does matter.

I live in a swing state and a swing household.  In a lib county but a more mixed city.  My kids attend public school.

[PronghornD]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

But I think what's different is that some of the influential adults in the kids' lives are buying into what would otherwise be temporary identity fads.

In high school, someone thought I was gay because I wore green on Thursdays.  My mom didn't respond by affirming that I was a lesbian and isn't that wonderful.  Had someone said I must be a guy kuz I wore men's jeans and sneakers (they fit me better), my mom wouldn't have put me in trans affirming therapy, and we wouldn't have been discussing hormones and top surgery.  My mom would have said "how silly, do you want to know what they used to call me in 9th grade?"

I don't think parents are generally putting kids in therapy or under medical treatment for such trivial reasons even now.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SKL said:

I live in a swing state and a swing household.  In a lib county but a more mixed city.  My kids attend public school.

Are they isolated from these trends or nah? Separated from households who perpetuate these views or nah?

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Are they isolated from these trends or nah? Separated from households who perpetuate these views or nah?

They are on social media without restrictions.  Hang out with all sorts of people.  Definitely not isolated in any way.

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, SKL said:

They are on social media without restrictions.  Hang out with all sorts of people.  Definitely not isolated in any way.

Gotcha. This MATTERS, NO? We’ve been having these convos, in one way or another, for ages. These factors make a difference. Parents have a choice about whether and how they allow social media and how they inoculate (or not) against harmful influences of all kinds. These conversations inevitably presuppose everyone is working with the same inputs. They’re not. Are there trends, sure! Do they impact everyone the same? No. I’ve been watching folks talk about this trans social contagion for years, perplexed the whole time. It’s not my experience, even in a conservative region.

Edited January 31 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Gotcha. This MATTERS, NO? We’ve been having these convos, in one way or another, for ages. These factors make a difference. Parents have a choice about whether and how they allow social media and how they inoculate (or not) against harmful influences of all kinds.

Please explain what you mean by "this matters."  Do you mean it's helpful, harmful, or both?  Are you saying that because my kids have a relatively flexible environment, they don't get affected by being told hundreds of times that they are not cis?

[PronghornD]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

The kids aren't informed that actual gender dysphoria is very rare.

This is hard to believe, although there is some supporting research. I wonder if the research is flawed or outdated, considering how many people I know with gender dysphoria. I am not a gregarious person with tons of acquaintances!

Edited January 31 by PronghornD

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Please explain what you mean by "this matters."  Do you mean it's helpful, harmful, or both?  Are you saying that because my kids have a relatively flexible environment, they don't get affected by being told hundreds of times that they are not cis?

Answered.

[SKL]

Are there people who believe that it's just a random coincidence that (a) kids are being told (by both peers and adults) that they're trans if they don't follow 100-year-old gender stereotypes, while (b) there's a growing population of young adults who have opted to change their physical appearance to the extent that they can't safely use the bathroom that corresponds to their chromosomes?

Edited January 31 by SKL

[SKL]

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 It’s not my experience.

So what did you mean when you said, in a prior post, that you were annoyed that other people made your daughter think there was only one option for girls?

[Sneezyone]

What I see is, largely but not always, conservative parents up in arms that their kids are questioning and/or rejecting their dogma/teachings about gender and sexuality. 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

So what did you mean when you said, in a prior post, that you were annoyed that other people made your daughter think there was only one option for girls?

I meant exactly what I said; it was annoying but easily swatted down. Thanks to many adults in this region who prioritize conformity.

Edited January 31 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I meant exactly what I said; it was annoying but easily swatted down. Thanks I many adults in this s region prioritize conformity.

I am not sure I understand you still.  Maybe you are saying that we are able to successfully offset the ignorant things our kids see/hear by talking openly with them.

However, high schoolers are at an age when their parents are the dumbest people in the world.  Whatever we say is guaranteed to be wrong.  So there's that.

[Amira]

59 minutes ago, SKL said:

Are there people who believe that it's just a random coincidence that (a) kids are being told (by both peers and adults) that they're trans if they don't follow 100-year-old gender stereotypes, while (b) there's a growing population of young adults who have opted to change their physical appearance to the extent that they can't safely use the bathroom that corresponds to their chromosomes?

People are experiencing this differently depending on their environments.  It is certainly not the case that kids everywhere are being told they’re trans if they don’t appear to be following gender stereotypes (edited to add that they're especially not being told they're trans as if being trans were a negative thing).  Some kids in all different kinds of environments are trans, but most are not.  I do not see the correlation you’re describing here because I think (a) is not an accurate representation of reality for many kids.

On a separate note, I am very sorry your kids are dealing with people questioning their identity.  That’s not okay.

Edited January 31 by Amira

[SHP]

15 minutes ago, SKL said:

However, high schoolers are at an age when their parents are the dumbest people in the world.  Whatever we say is guaranteed to be wrong.  So there's that.

This is not my experience at all with teenagers. My teens and my friend's teens never had the attitude that their parents were the dumbest people in the world.

In my house, we have frequent discussions about such topics. My husband and I listen with an open mind and asked questions and as a family we learned more from people who in a position of authority on the topics and have further discussions. My teens and adultlings still come to me for advice and ask to work together. For skills that they learn that we don't know, we ask them to teach us. This is the norm here. 

 

The only outliers that I know who hold the view that their parents are stupid come from very dysfunctional homes. 

 

[Lady Florida.]

Ds identifies as 100% cis male. He has two trans (both m>f) friends, several who identify as nonbinary and one gay. All but one of these friends are kids (now adults but always kids to me) he grew up with in our very inclusive homeschool group. Never once was he pressured to identify as anything other than what his is. Neither were his other cis male or cis female friends pressured. The friends who identify as something other than cis weren't bullied by anyone in our homeschool group but they do experience bullying/bigotry in their now everyday adult lives. One of the trans women started hanging out with the then teens in our hs group because she was bullied at her public high school and had no friends there. You know by my user name where I live. It's terribly difficult for people like ds' friends to live in a state where it's considered okay, even a good thing, to discriminate against them. 

Going back a few pages to employers - A number of companies had planned conventions in Florida and pulled out due to the state's discriminatory laws. While I don't like to see the economy of my home affected I'm glad these companies are protecting their employees. 

Edited January 31 by Lady Florida.

[PronghornD]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Are there people who believe that it's just a random coincidence that (a) kids are being told (by both peers and adults) that they're trans if they don't follow 100-year-old gender stereotypes, while (b) there's a growing population of young adults who have opted to change their physical appearance to the extent that they can't safely use the bathroom that corresponds to their chromosomes?

I think you are mixing up cause and effect a bit. It's a two-way street. And, no, I don't believe adults are going around telling kids they are trans. And I don't believe that a lot of trans kids are telling their friends that they are trans. Most trans kids respect the journey, having traveled it themselves.