The psychology of young people

[SKL]

I used to say, one way in which I feel the younger generation has improved over previous generations is that they seem to have less prejudice, more tolerance for different kinds of people.

But now I'm seeing rampant, blatant antisemitism among younger folks, and it feels like huge steps backward.  It makes no sense and doesn't fit in at all with what they thought they espoused.

What have we missed?  Were kids just responding to social media influences all along, with no depth to their beliefs?  How do we respond in turn?

In our case, my more social-media-influenced kid started out parroting some extreme things she saw about the middle east situation, but now her comments sound more thoughtful.  The way I respond is to calmly state my principles (and relevant facts).  Obviously I know more about the history than my 16yo knows, and I think she respects me as a decent human, so maybe my comments have been helpful.  Or maybe it wasn't me at all.

My kids live with me, and I'd like to keep it that way while their brains are immature.  It gives me a chance to respond to immature thinking before it gets too problematic.  Maybe that's what's missing in the case of many kids on college campuses.  Or maybe it's something else.

Thoughts?

I think we can discuss this without bringing politics into it, so let's try!

[scholastica]

Please define anti-semitism. Being anti some of the Israeli government’s actions does not make one an anti-Semite. Hating Jewish people because they are Jewish and you believe a bunch of lies about them is antisemitism. 

[scholastica]

I don’t think this really has to do with the psychology of young people. It’s all of us.

This OpEd is instructive:

“Welcome to Our Bespoke Realities”

And also this piece about Social Media.

 

[TexasProud]

8 minutes ago, scholastica said:

Please define anti-semitism. Being anti some of the Israeli government’s actions does not make one an anti-Semite. Hating Jewish people because they are Jewish and you believe a bunch of lies about them is antisemitism. 

I was just going to say that. I see a lot of calling for a cease-fire, not hatred for the Jewish people.

[SKL]

21 minutes ago, scholastica said:

Please define anti-semitism. Being anti some of the Israeli government’s actions does not make one an anti-Semite. Hating Jewish people because they are Jewish and you believe a bunch of lies about them is antisemitism. 

Like "death to Jews" and similar.  Also blaming Jewish-American young people, who have nothing to do with what's happening elsewhere, for what's happening elsewhere.  Also blowing off atrocities committed against the Jews but not those against others.

Edited December 6, 2023 by SKL

[Condessa]

1 hour ago, scholastica said:

Please define anti-semitism. Being anti some of the Israeli government’s actions does not make one an anti-Semite. Hating Jewish people because they are Jewish and you believe a bunch of lies about them is antisemitism. 

57 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I was just going to say that. I see a lot of calling for a cease-fire, not hatred for the Jewish people.

It is undeniable that antisemitic speech and actions are rampantly on display around the world at this time.  Antisemitic incidents are up 400% in the U.S. (according to the Anti-defamation league, at the end of October) and they were already the most targeted group for hate crimes by a significant margin before the surge (according to the FBI).  There have been stabbings by strangers for being Jewish, homes defaced with swastikas because they had a mezuzah on the doorframe, kosher delis vandalized.  Jewish students on college campuses are especially terrorized.  At Cornell there were threats to shoot up the Jewish life student center, slit the throats of Jewish men, and rape and throw off a cliff Jewish women on campus.  At Northeastern University in Boston last week, Jewish students gathered for a Shabbat dinner and protestors gathered with signs calling for global intifada—not an uprising against Israelis, but against all a Jews around the world.  

Edited December 6, 2023 by Condessa

[Condessa]

My thoughts:

There is a hierarchical mindset that is very common in the viewpoint of many young people that I think is at the root of the current surge in anti-semitism, especially among those on college campuses.  There seems to be a sorting of who, as a group, is the most-to-least oppressed, that is based not only on historical oppression, but also to some degree on the material success of each demographic on average.  Those who don’t fall on the oppressed side are at least suspect of being oppressors.  It isn’t a big step from here to saying therefore, those whose groups are seen as more materially successful are the ones who it is okay to discriminate against.  I think that the general acceptance of discrimination against Asians in college admissions comes from the same root.  
 

Asian immigrants as a group are seen as highly materially successful, so there is no widespread outrage at the fact that Asian kids have to work significantly harder to get into the same schools as other kids.  It doesn’t matter if that kid’s parents were refugees who fled a foreign regime or what they had to overcome to get here.  Asians are not viewed as a group that needs help and protection, because statistically they tend to be highly educated with good incomes.  So people don’t really care about the discrimination or think that it is all that unjust.  It is the same with Jews.  As a group, statistically speaking they are well-educated and materially successful, so they are seen as falling more on the oppressor end of the hierarchy, regardless of actual historical oppression or the facts of current hate crime numbers.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Condessa

[scholastica]

29 minutes ago, Condessa said:

It is undeniable that antisemitic speech and actions are rampantly on display around the world at this time.  Antisemitic incidents are up 400% in the U.S. (according to the Anti-defamation league, at the end of October) and they were already the most targeted group for hate crimes by a significant margin before the surge (according to the FBI).  There have been stabbings by strangers for being Jewish, homes defaced with swastikas because they had a mezuzah on the doorframe, kosher delis vandalized.  Jewish students on college campuses are especially terrorized.  At Cornell there were threats to shoot up the Jewish life student center, slit the throats of Jewish men, and rape and throw off a cliff Jewish women on campus.  At Northeastern University in Boston last week, Jewish students gathered for a Shabbat dinner and protestors gathered with signs calling for global intifada—not an uprising against Israelis, but against all a Jews around the world.  

Absolutely that is all antisemitism and abhorrent and heartbreaking. It’s terrifying and horrific and it needs to stop. 

[scholastica]

58 minutes ago, SKL said:

Like "death to Jews" and similar.  Also blaming Jewish-American young people, who have nothing to do with what's happening elsewhere, for what's happening elsewhere.  Also blowing off atrocities committed against the Jews but not those against others.

That is absolutely antisemitism and it stems from ignorance and getting your information from social media. 
 

eta: I would be giving my kid a history lesson calmly and quietly and patiently. I would be really working on media literacy.

Edited December 6, 2023 by scholastica

[Carrie12345]

The antisemitism in the US is absolutely appalling. But I don’t think it’s a majority of young people by a long shot. Far too many sliding out from under their grotesque rocks, for sure. 

[fairfarmhand]

There's also an overly simplified  mindset that two things can't be true at the same time and a kind of flattening of nuance. 

It can be horrific that Jewish settlers were murdered, raped, and kidnapped. And ALSO horrific that civilians are dying in Gaza. We don't have to pick a side of which one is worse. They're both awful.

[Heartstrings]

I think it’s just a thought process change.  I think young people are able to separate out criticism of Israel, of the government there, criticism of how things have been handled between Israel and Palestine as being different from anti-semitism, where in the past it was all viewed as being the same.  It’s not anti Italian to critique the Italian government when Berlesgoni was misbehaving,  not anti American for other countries to criticize our government, it’s not anti Semitic to critique the Israeli government. There are many Jews who don’t like the current government, BiBi has been hanging on by a thread for as long as I can remember.  
 

The younger generation is also less religious.  The whole “support Israel so Jesus will return” line of thinking no longer resonates. 
 

Lastly, I think it is because they are empathic and less biased that they are seeing what’s going on over there and are appalled.  Prior to Oct 7, the plight of the Palestinians was awful. If you don’t  start off with a bias against Palestinians it’s easy to see that their treatment has been terrible, in Gaza and the West Bank.  There are complicated reasons for that, but that doesn’t change that it’s bad.  
 

I think it’s the opposite of anti Semitism to hold Israel to a high standard and call them out on missing it.  Accepting less from Israel would be anti Semetic.  

[Heartstrings]

48 minutes ago, Condessa said:

It is undeniable that antisemitic speech and actions are rampantly on display around the world at this time.  Antisemitic incidents are up 400% in the U.S. (anccording to the Anti-defamation league, at the end of October) and they were already the most targeted group for hate crimes by a fair margin before the surge (according to the FBI).  There have been stabbings by strangers for being Jewish, homes defaced with swastikas because they had a mezuzah on the doorframe, kosher delis vandalized.  Jewish students on college campuses are especially terrorized.  At Cornell there were threats to shoot up the Jewish life student center, slit the throats of Jewish men, and rape and throw off a cliff Jewish women on campus.  At Northeastern University in Boston last week, Jewish students gathered for a Shabbat dinner and protestors gathered with signs calling for global intifada—not an uprising against Israelis, but against all a Jews around the world.  

You are correct, of course.  This does miss that we’ve also seen anti Muslim sentiment as well, as we always do, both here in America and in Europe.  Both groups should be seen as equally important and worth protecting.  

Edited December 6, 2023 by Heartstrings

[KSera]

10 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

There's also an overly simplified  mindset that two things can't be true at the same time and a kind of flattening of nuance. 

It can be horrific that Jewish settlers were murdered, raped, and kidnapped. And ALSO horrific that civilians are dying in Gaza. We don't have to pick a side of which one is worse. They're both awful.

This is what I am seeing in terms of this issue on social media with young people. One thing it seems to me may be happening is that it's a generation that has grown up on social media and has been used to clicking and liking and resharing all kinds of content that's of little consequence/import. Now they are reaching an age where they are becoming more politically aware and this may be the first issue of this kind they have followed and been paying attention to, and they are rightfully and understandably horrified. At the same time though, they are clicking and liking and resharing much of this content without any more due diligence than they have done with fluffy memes and content in the past, which is meaning disturbing or unhelpful content is ending up amplified as well. I think it's pretty common for people to reshare things without having any idea where it came from, its truthfulness, or if in fact it originated with people they wouldn't really want to be aligning themselves with.

One of my kids is getting a lot of content saying that no one should be able to be happy right now and there is something wrong with people who are able to continue on without being continually distraught every moment of every day. It left them feeling guilty and self conscious for having posted light hearted stuff that day. That's not a mentally healthy way to live.

 

[kbutton]

38 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

There's also an overly simplified  mindset that two things can't be true at the same time and a kind of flattening of nuance. 

I’ve heard some discussion about this flattening in regard to the idea of oppressors and the oppressed, in particular that some people feel you can’t switch between the two in different circumstances. I haven’t listened to the whole discussion yet, but this came up on The Holy Post podcast. They are also referencing a talk by Bari Weiss that I haven’t listened to either, but it sounds like it talks about that idea maybe as well. One HP host likened this to the Puritans being persecuted in Europe, but when they got to North America, they persecuted other religious people.

[Heartstrings]

I’m curious..,for those of us around 35+, how much of what you remember learning about the Israel/Palestine conflict came from an Israeli/American perspective and how much do uou remember hearing from Palestinians ?    I’m wondering if part of the more pro-Palestine sentiment is coming from young people having easier access to Palestinian scholarship on this issue than previous generations had.   I’m listening to a couple of different podcasts these days with interviews of both Israeli experts and Palestinian experts, as well as opposing Jewish experts.  I know that wasn’t available 10, 15, 20 years ago.   It helps paint a fuller picture, but also leaves me out of step with Israel-good, Palestine-bad that seems to be more prevalent.
 

  So I’m curious, what was being taught, what was accessible prior to this generational divide?  

Edited December 6, 2023 by Heartstrings

[KSera]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

I’m curious..,for those of us around 35+, how much of what you remember learning about the Israel/Palestine conflict came from an Israeli/American perspective and how much do uou remember hearing from Palestinian scholars ?    I’m wondering if part of the more pro-Palestine sentiment is coming from young people having easier access to Palestinian scholarship on this issue than previous generations had.   I’m listening to a couple of different podcasts these days with interviews of both Israeli experts and Palestinian experts, as well as opposing Jewish experts.  I know that wasn’t available 10, 15, 20 years ago.   It helps paint a fuller picture, but also leaves me out of step with Israel-good, Palestine-bad that seems to be more prevalent.
 

  So I’m curious, what was being taught, what was accessible prior to this generational divide?  

I don't get the idea that younger people in the US got any better teaching about this than most of my/our generation did. History instruction is still pretty abysmal in the US. I think that plays into the lack of nuance, because most really don't have much historical grounding and are learning about the conflict from social media. Of my young adults, it's the one who has deep history knowledge that is by far the most nuanced in talking about the complexity of the conflict.

[Heartstrings]

9 minutes ago, KSera said:

I don't get the idea that younger people in the US got any better teaching about this than most of my/our generation did. History instruction is still pretty abysmal in the US. I think that plays into the lack of nuance, because most really don't have much historical grounding and are learning about the conflict from social media. Of my young adults, it's the one who has deep history knowledge that is by far the most nuanced in talking about the complexity of the conflict.

I’m not really thinking about school, I honestly got 0 on the conflict in school, high school or college.   It all came from PBS, NPR, documentaries, etc., making it heavily dependent on availability of resources.   Today Palistinian experts and Jewish experts on both sides of the issue are easy to find, but I’m not sure if that’s always been the case.  

Edited December 6, 2023 by Heartstrings

[KSera]

13 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I’m not really thinking about school, I honestly got 0 on the conflict in school, high school or college.   It all came from PBS, NPR, documentaries, etc., making it heavily dependent on availability of resources.   Today Palistinian experts and Jewish experts on both sides of the issue are easy to find, but I’m not sure if that’s always been the case.  

I expect you’re right that it’s easier to find information from experts on both sides now, but I’m not personally getting the idea that that’s where the majority of people are getting their information.

[scholastica]

44 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I’m curious..,for those of us around 35+, how much of what you remember learning about the Israel/Palestine conflict came from an Israeli/American perspective and how much do uou remember hearing from Palestinians ?    I’m wondering if part of the more pro-Palestine sentiment is coming from young people having easier access to Palestinian scholarship on this issue than previous generations had.   I’m listening to a couple of different podcasts these days with interviews of both Israeli experts and Palestinian experts, as well as opposing Jewish experts.  I know that wasn’t available 10, 15, 20 years ago.   It helps paint a fuller picture, but also leaves me out of step with Israel-good, Palestine-bad that seems to be more prevalent.
 

  So I’m curious, what was being taught, what was accessible prior to this generational divide?  

I had a world history teacher in high school in the 80s who was Palestinian, and she made sure we understood the situation. Everyone in the class had to do a research paper on the subject of Israel and Palestine. I also spent my first 11 years in school in an area of the country with a large Jewish population, so I got that perspective, as well. I only found out later in life how rare that education in this subject or even the Holocaust was.

[Condessa]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

You are correct, of course.  This does miss that we’ve also seen anti Muslim sentiment as well, as we always do, both here in America and in Europe.  Both groups should be seen as equally important and worth protecting.  

Of course there is anti Muslim sentiment as well, but nobody in this thread said there wasn’t.  Responding to “I don’t see A, only B” with “Here are a bunch of examples of A” is not missing J, it is giving a logical response.  
 

I don’t think we have to supersede every discussion of problem A with problem J to prove that we care about both (especially when problem A is statistically a more prevalent occurrence in our country at this time).

[Condessa]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I think it’s just a thought process change.  I think young people are able to separate out criticism of Israel, of the government there, criticism of how things have been handled between Israel and Palestine as being different from anti-semitism, where in the past it was all viewed as being the same.  It’s not anti Italian to critique the Italian government when Berlesgoni was misbehaving,  not anti American for other countries to criticize our government, it’s not anti Semitic to critique the Israeli government. There are many Jews who don’t like the current government, BiBi has been hanging on by a thread for as long as I can remember.  
 

The younger generation is also less religious.  The whole “support Israel so Jesus will return” line of thinking no longer resonates. 
 

Lastly, I think it is because they are empathic and less biased that they are seeing what’s going on over there and are appalled.  Prior to Oct 7, the plight of the Palestinians was awful. If you don’t  start off with a bias against Palestinians it’s easy to see that their treatment has been terrible, in Gaza and the West Bank.  There are complicated reasons for that, but that doesn’t change that it’s bad.  
 

I think it’s the opposite of anti Semitism to hold Israel to a high standard and call them out on missing it.  Accepting less from Israel would be anti Semetic.  

Except that what we are seeing on many college campuses is the opposite of this; not a clear distinction between anti-Israeli government sentiment and anti-semitism, but the opposite.

[Hanneli]

I would have said TikTok, but it's not that simple. The "shocking" (not shocking to me or to many others) anti-Semitism is not due to just one thing. A lot of it has been in the underbelly of many and just not being voiced until now. Even here in this thread about anti-Semitism, it quickly turned into a but, but, but situation. Many have been raised and educated this way, and TikTok (in particular) has amplified it. People are just saying it out loud now and calling it being nuanced or fair. 

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

I’ve heard some discussion about this flattening in regard to the idea of oppressors and the oppressed, in particular that some people feel you can’t switch between the two in different circumstances. I haven’t listened to the whole discussion yet, but this came up on The Holy Post podcast. They are also referencing a talk by Bari Weiss that I haven’t listened to either, but it sounds like it talks about that idea maybe as well. One HP host likened this to the Puritans being persecuted in Europe, but when they got to North America, they persecuted other religious people.

I listened to that episode too and thought it was a good analysis of the minndset.

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

You are correct, of course.  This does miss that we’ve also seen anti Muslim sentiment as well, as we always do, both here in America and in Europe.  Both groups should be seen as equally important and worth protecting.  

I'm glad today's kids are less Islamophobic, but if it means they have swapped Islamophobia for anti-Semitism, then it isn't what I thought it was.

[Heartstrings]

36 minutes ago, Condessa said:

Of course there is anti Muslim sentiment as well, but nobody in this thread said there wasn’t.  Responding to “I don’t see A, only B” with “Here are a bunch of examples of A” is not missing J, it is giving a logical response.  
 

I don’t think we have to supersede every discussion of problem A with problem J to prove that we care about both (especially when problem A is statistically a more prevalent occurrence in our country at this time).

But it’s hard to say “young people” are being anti semetic when young people are also being anti-Muslim.   It might be that it’s not very useful to discuss huge groups as though they are a monolith.  
 

If there is a rise in violence against both sides I think the most accurate thing to say is young Americans will take any opportunity to be violent, in general.   

Edited December 6, 2023 by Heartstrings

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I’m curious..,for those of us around 35+, how much of what you remember learning about the Israel/Palestine conflict came from an Israeli/American perspective and how much do uou remember hearing from Palestinians ?    I’m wondering if part of the more pro-Palestine sentiment is coming from young people having easier access to Palestinian scholarship on this issue than previous generations had.   I’m listening to a couple of different podcasts these days with interviews of both Israeli experts and Palestinian experts, as well as opposing Jewish experts.  I know that wasn’t available 10, 15, 20 years ago.   It helps paint a fuller picture, but also leaves me out of step with Israel-good, Palestine-bad that seems to be more prevalent.
 

  So I’m curious, what was being taught, what was accessible prior to this generational divide?  

Decades ago I educated myself about the middle eastern situation and took a stand against the mainstream.  However, as another person said, two or more things can be true at the same time.  Or as we were taught, two wrongs don't make a right.  The situation is nuanced.  October 7 did in fact happen and was wrong.  And the impetus behind it wasn't simply the Palestinian people's plight.  But I don't want to get into world politics here.  Even 100 years ago, people were somehow convinced that genocide against the Jews was "the solution," and there was no state of Israel then.  I was hoping we'd made progress psychologically since then.

I find it ironic that the young people today are accusing Jews of being genocidal, when it was an actual undeniable genocide that led to the creation of the modern state of Israel in the mid-20th century.  I get the impression the young people don't even know enough to get the irony.  And I don't know how that can be.  I know my kids have had tons of exposure to info on that genocide of the past century.  What happened to that?  Hell, one of my kids was named after Anne Frank.

[Xahm]

This is just me musing, but I wonder if part of the problem is that we are giving ourselves, and our kids, too much credit for being better humans than we were in the past. This is extra complicated for me to sort out because I come from a "we're all dead in sin and have no good desires" and am now in a "we're made in the image of God but we're bad at it" state if understanding. 

Stereotypes are useful for our brains, even though they are frequently harmful, especially when we live in a more diverse society. We are very aware today of the harm that comes from race and sex discrimination, so we don't rely on that mental crutch and rebuke ourselves when we slip. However, have our brains gotten commensurately better at dealing with information? It strikes me that we've got more information than ever before while at the same time knowing that we shouldn't "chunk" this information into stereotypes, but it's it surprising that we're having major trouble with this, especially our young people? 

I very much don't know the solution to this, but I think we're going to need to develop some strategies besides, "treat every person and bit of information you come across as completely individual and necessary to evaluate on their/its own merits." That sounds great, but I don't think it's humanly possible. I think we're seeing the birthing pains of trying find a new way of organizing information that doesn't hurt people.

[Heartstrings]

19 minutes ago, SKL said:

Decades ago I educated myself about the middle eastern situation and took a stand against the mainstream.  However, as another person said, two or more things can be true at the same time.  Or as we were taught, two wrongs don't make a right.  The situation is nuanced.  October 7 did in fact happen and was wrong.  And the impetus behind it wasn't simply the Palestinian people's plight.  But I don't want to get into world politics here.  Even 100 years ago, people were somehow convinced that genocide against the Jews was "the solution," and there was no state of Israel then.  I was hoping we'd made progress psychologically since then.

I find it ironic that the young people today are accusing Jews of being genocidal, when it was an actual undeniable genocide that led to the creation of the modern state of Israel in the mid-20th century.  I get the impression the young people don't even know enough to get the irony.  And I don't know how that can be.  I know my kids have had tons of exposure to info on that genocide of the past century.  What happened to that?  Hell, one of my kids was named after Anne Frank.

I think the bolded is the real crux of it.  It’s possible to say that the attack on Oct. 7 was terrible.  It is also possible to say that the response has been terrible, except that saying the response has been terrible gets shut down as being anti semetic. 
 

It’s also possible to see and acknowledge that the Jews as a people have been victims of genocide, but not think that that means the state of Israel can’t be acting genocidally towards the Palestinians.  Wether they are or not could be debated, but I’m not sure that them having been the victims of it prevents them from doing it to someone else in the future. Like someone upthread said, it’s true the Puritans were both victims and perpetrators of religious persecution.  

Honestly I don’t like talking about Jews as a monolith in this way, it feels racist.  There are Jewish people on every side of this issue.  The Israeli government is in charge of the war.  Jewish people both in and outside of Israel have different opinions on that.  

If Jewish people have various views I’m not sure why it’s anti -semetic to agree with one portion of Jewish people over the other portion.  Violence of any sort, hate crimes, etc. are terrible and should be disavowed and punished, of course.  That’s very different than having a difference of opinion.  

Edited December 6, 2023 by Heartstrings

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think the bolded is the real crux of it.  It’s possible to say that the attack on Oct. 7 was terrible.  It is also possible to say that the response has been terrible, except that saying the response has been terrible gets shut down as being anti semetic. 
 

It’s also possible to see and acknowledge that the Jews as a people have been victims of genocide, but not think that that means the state of Israel can’t be acting genocidally towards the Palestinians.  Wether they are or not could be debated, but I’m not sure that them having been the victims of it prevents them from doing it to someone else in the future. Like someone upthread said, it’s true the Puritans were both victims and perpetrators of religious persecution.  

Honestly I don’t like talking about Jews as a monolith in this way, it feels racist.  There are Jewish people on every side of this issue.  The Israeli government is in charge of the war.  Jewish people both in and outside of Israel have different opinions on that.  

If Jewish people are allowed to have various views I’m not sure why it’s anti -semetic to agree with one portion of Jewish people over the other portion.  

I know what it means to be anti-semitic vs. to disagree with what the Israeli government is doing.  I've openly disagreed with Israel on many important things for the majority of my life.

That's not what I'm talking about here.  Young people who are trying to see humans as humans and policies as policies and have an opinion on those policies and how to address them - that's what I want to see.  If that were all I was seeing, this post would not exist.

[Eos]

The obvious power differential in the current crisis is why I think young people are being drawn to a passionate stance on this.  

I'm a very politically active person but I find it hard to engage with the protests right now and I've been examining why (I would expect myself to be more engaged with the Let Gaza Live side.)  I do believe there should be an immediate ceasefire and negotiations should proceed within it.  War is horrible.

I've finally hit on my personal snag: the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend.  So anti-Semitism is my enemy and Bibi Netanyahu is my enemy and Islamophobia is my enemy and Zionism is my enemy.  I think I generally assume that the enemy of my enemy is my friend but in this case, due primarily to the anti-Semitism that is bubbling up, it's not true, and leaves me with no way to engage authentically.  

Edited December 6, 2023 by Eos

[SKL]

I wonder why so many people just assumed that I meant "difference of opinion" when I said "anti-Semitism."

Perhaps you aren't seeing the same things I'm seeing.

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Eos said:

I'm a very politically active person but I find it hard to engage with the protests right now and I've been examining why (I would expect myself to be more engaged with the Let Gaza Live side.)  I do believe there should be an immediate ceasefire and negotiations should proceed within it.  War is horrible.

I've finally hit on my personal snag: the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend.  So anti-Semitism is my enemy and Bibi Netanyahu is my enemy and Islamophobia is my enemy and Zionism is my enemy.  I think I generally assume that the enemy of my enemy is my friend but in this case, due primarily to the anti-Semitism that is bubbling up, it's not true, and leaves me with no way to engage authentically.  

I really appreciate you sharing your insight on this. I think you helped me sort out some of my conflicting feelings as well, in addition to my unease about the way I see some young people that are important to me navigating this. I'm quite concerned with the tendency toward "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" in this circumstance. To see well-intentioned, good hearted young people seeming to align themselves with Hamas is disconcerting to say the least. I think for many of them, they do see Hamas as evil also, and have no intention of aligning themselves with them, but they inadvertently end up doing so (I think in large part because they don't actually understand the politics of the situation, having gotten most of their information from Instagram and tik tok clips).

[Condessa]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I’m curious..,for those of us around 35+, how much of what you remember learning about the Israel/Palestine conflict came from an Israeli/American perspective and how much do uou remember hearing from Palestinians ?    I’m wondering if part of the more pro-Palestine sentiment is coming from young people having easier access to Palestinian scholarship on this issue than previous generations had.   I’m listening to a couple of different podcasts these days with interviews of both Israeli experts and Palestinian experts, as well as opposing Jewish experts.  I know that wasn’t available 10, 15, 20 years ago.   It helps paint a fuller picture, but also leaves me out of step with Israel-good, Palestine-bad that seems to be more prevalent.
 

  So I’m curious, what was being taught, what was accessible prior to this generational divide?  

I was never taught anything about history post WWII in school.

[Heartstrings]

30 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think for many of them, they do see Hamas as evil also, and have no intention of aligning themselves with them, but they inadvertently end up doing so

I think some of this springs from lack of an alternative leadership option. Even if Hamas is rooted out fully, the replacement is likely to be more of the same if not worse. It’s hard to acknowledge that without feeling like you are saying that the Palestinians themselves are evil as a people, which I don’t believe. There’s just no way a peaceful leadership comes out of the literal rubble of this crisis.  It’s a situation with no “good guy” to land on and pull for if you disagree with the actions of BiBi’s government.  No person or group has risen up to be the spokesperson for the civilians, politically or otherwise. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

I find it ironic that the young people today are accusing Jews of being genocidal, when it was an actual undeniable genocide that led to the creation of the modern state of Israel in the mid-20th century.  I get the impression the young people don't even know enough to get the irony. 

I think that is precisely what younger people don’t seem to know about. Then, the power differential/oppressor-oppressed framework is placed on top of the situation without that historical information.

Also, facts can be presented in a variety of settings…I know some people familiar with international law that take major issue with how some facts are presented and contextualized (The Dispatch has a variety of podcasts that have tackled this very issue, especially on Advisory Opinions). That can flatten the issue as well.

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

But it’s hard to say “young people” are being anti semetic when young people are also being anti-Muslim.   It might be that it’s not very useful to discuss huge groups as though they are a monolith.  
 

If there is a rise in violence against both sides I think the most accurate thing to say is young Americans will take any opportunity to be violent, in general.   

Some, and yes.  
I mean, look at school shootings in general. 

[Faith-manor]

5 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

There's also an overly simplified  mindset that two things can't be true at the same time and a kind of flattening of nuance. 

It can be horrific that Jewish settlers were murdered, raped, and kidnapped. And ALSO horrific that civilians are dying in Gaza. We don't have to pick a side of which one is worse. They're both awful.

This is how my kids and their friends see it. It is all carnage, and all of it heart breaking.

[BusyMom5]

Neither of my college aged kids have said anything regarding antisemitism.

One of mine has an online friend she connected with over a shared hobby who lives there, a Muslim, and she supports Israel because of the way she is treated as a young Muslim woman by the current "government."  She and her family do not support a government ruled by Muslim extremists and wish Israel would take over.  I think this is a unique perspective, and one not shared online or in the news.  Young woman are watching any rights they had erode, while also able to see stuff on Social media from the US and other democracies and the freedom we have to wear what we want,  say what we want, and learn what we want.  They have been friends for probably 4 years and this has been a continuing conversation- real experiences of friends shared,  more real-life than a new story- telling about something that she saw, fears she has, wishes she could leave, friends dissappear.  My DD wasn't aware of how bad it was in these countries before, and this friendship has opened her eyes.  

Our family is usually pretty skeptical,  we also aren't joiners and opposed to Group Think - this applies to many things- church groups, politics from both sides, even Black Lives Matter.  We do support certain positions in Republican and Democratic platforms.  We agree with lots of church group positions.  We agree that the lives of Black people matter.  But those groups, parties, bandwagons- that's where we separate ourselves.  For kids who are used to joining, this is just one more bandwagon they jump on.  I don't think most of them know enough about the situation and people involved to have an educated opinion.  

[dirty ethel rackham]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

I wonder why so many people just assumed that I meant "difference of opinion" when I said "anti-Semitism."

Perhaps you aren't seeing the same things I'm seeing.

I think many of us who have dared to express our concerns about the Israeli government have been accused of anti-Semitism.  I know that I had to stop reacting to anything on social media because I have been called out by my Jewish friends and acquaintances and accused of being a hateful human being ... that anything less than 100% support of the Jewish state no matter who is governing or how is antisemitism.  So that is what I am reacting to.  

I don't think this rise in antisemitism is unique to young people.  Maybe I'm out of touch with what is happening on college campuses, but I have seen plenty from adults - older adults, who think they have been given carte blanche to express racist and xenophobic views towards anyone not white.  

[Condessa]

3 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

But it’s hard to say “young people” are being anti semetic when young people are also being anti-Muslim.   It might be that it’s not very useful to discuss huge groups as though they are a monolith.  
 

If there is a rise in violence against both sides I think the most accurate thing to say is young Americans will take any opportunity to be violent, in general.   

Is the rise in islamophobia greater among young people?  I have seen many reports of antisemitic incidents on college campuses, but the reports I have seen of islamophobic incidents haven't disproportionately involved young people.  I haven't seen any numbers on it, though.

[Condessa]

3 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

If Jewish people have various views I’m not sure why it’s anti -semetic to agree with one portion of Jewish people over the other portion.  Violence of any sort, hate crimes, etc. are terrible and should be disavowed and punished, of course.  That’s very different than having a difference of opinion.  

That stinks if people have called you antisemitic for your opinions, but that isn't what this thread was about.  The OP was talking about the surge of actual antisemitism that is occurring right now.  

[scholastica]

32 minutes ago, Condessa said:

That stinks if people have called you antisemitic for your opinions, but that isn't what this thread was about.  The OP was talking about the surge of actual antisemitism that is occurring right now.  

I think that’s where the disconnect is for some people. There are people accusing others of antisemitism when they don’t give 100% full-throated approval to what the Netanyahu admin is doing in Gaza. So, first we have to define what the OP means. She didn’t state in her first post what she way seeing. Later she clarified. There is actual, scary, threatening antisemitism occurring everywhere it seems, but some people are being called antisemitic for simply disagreeing with or disapproving of some of the actions the Israeli government is taking. It clouds the discussion, so we should be clear about what we’re seeing and experiencing. 

[Heartstrings]

29 minutes ago, Condessa said:

That stinks if people have called you antisemitic for your opinions, but that isn't what this thread was about.  The OP was talking about the surge of actual antisemitism that is occurring right now.  

It’s hard to discuss when the same word is used to express everything from having a different opinion to actual violence.  It’s hard to sus out where the line is.  Any opinion other than blind support for the Israeli government is seen as actual anti semitism by some and called as such.  

[Heartstrings]

Just now, scholastica said:

I think that’s where the disconnect is for some people. There are people accusing others of antisemitism when they don’t give 100% full-throated approval to what the Netanyahu admin is doing in Gaza. So, first we have to define what the OP means. She didn’t state in her first post what she way seeing. Later she clarified. There is actual, scary, threatening antisemitism occurring everywhere it seems, but some people are being called antisemitic for simply disagreeing with or disapproving of some of the actions the Israeli government is taking. It clouds the discussion, so we should be clear about what we’re seeing and experiencing. 

You said it better than I did.  
 

Yes, to all of this.  

[SKL]

Maybe part of the problem is the way we've been using extreme words to describe relatively mild offenses.  Just as a few examples I've seen here:  a mom suggesting safety advice for young women is a "rape apologist."  A different view on gender dysphoria treatment is "you literally want my child to not exist."  And basically any difference of opinion / perspective is "hate."  It does water down words that should be reserved for serious situations IMO.

Are we (or is social media) perhaps encouraging our kids to overreact as well as jump the gun?

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by SKL

[KSera]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

is social media) perhaps encouraging our kids to overreact

yes

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

yes

Seconded.    I don't usually jump on the anti social media train, but in this instance, yes.  

[Carrie12345]

12 hours ago, SKL said:

Are we (or is social media) perhaps encouraging our kids to overreact as well as jump the gun?

I definitely think there’s an element of that. It’s not the whole thing, but it’s real.

In some ways, I support how it interrupts casual isms. But it also slams shut some opportunities for nuance. And some things are extremely nuanced. 

[Pam in CT]

re SM and development of reductive / hasty response patterns

3 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I definitely think there’s an element of that. It’s not the whole thing, but it’s real.

In some ways, I support how it interrupts casual isms. But it also slams shut some opportunities for nuance. And some things are extremely nuanced. 

This.  And also, we are often less well mannered when we're not face-to-face.  Even less so when there's a screen of anonymity.

But it's not merely that social media rewards snark and invites one-liner snipe-and-run responses, though it does. It's also, fundamentally, a natural effect of the business model. 

 

Social media addicts by rewarding dopamine rushes. And social media business models are constructed, literally, on monetizing those dopamine rushes. There's a great deal of research in various social sciences that human beings experience, recall and recount negative emotions more intensely than positive ones. That suggests that the profitability of SM business models depends on their success in stirring up MORE outrage / fury / fear / and their amplification.

I think A LOT about the implications of France Haugen's testimony that in the run-up to the 2016 elections, Facebook algorithms started out weighing a thumbs-down at 5x a "like," but by November it had ramped the ratio up to 20x.