World problems/news ( Used to be Anybody concerned about Friday, then I changed it to concerned about world problems)

[KSera]

12 minutes ago, EmmaNZ said:

The title of this thread is about 'world events'. I think the thread should include at least a mention of the killing of thousands upon thousands of civilians because somebody in their neighbourhood committed a crime.

 

10 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

There was a thread previously that was locked and now there’s a thread in politics. I have avoided posting much because it’s an emotive topic and I don’t want a forum mess.

I think this is where I got confused by the suggestion that no one was talking about it. I have lost track of which of these threads discussed which things, so perhaps this particular one hasn't discussed the atrocities against Palestinian civilians. I know that at least one of these threads (maybe the locked one) had a number of people talking about the atrocities on both sides of the conflict.

2 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

By their actions Israel is making sure that more and more children grow up traumatized and with a deep hatred.

I think this is probably true.

[Ausmumof3]

6 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

I think this is where I got confused by the suggestion that no one was talking about it. I have lost track of which of these threads discussed which things, so perhaps this particular one hasn't discussed the atrocities against Palestinian civilians. I know that at least one of these threads (maybe the locked one) had a number of people talking about the atrocities on both sides of the conflict.

I think this is probably true.

I have deliberately tried to avoid posting directly about the conflict itself on this thread and only incidents of terrorism, Islamophobia and antisemitism in other countries because I don’t want the thread locked. Even when posting about terrorism etc I’ve taken a fair bit of time to think and try and ensure what I’m posting is accurate. 
 

I find the conflict itself is too emotive and people are discussing with such different understandings of history that it’s almost impossible to have a discussion. I just hope everyone examines and checks each and every claim about it because there’s been a lot of misinformation (from many sides). I am becoming increasingly cautious about anything I read.

[KSera]

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I just hope everyone examines and checks each and every claim about it because there’s been a lot of misinformation (from many sides). I am becoming increasingly cautious about anything I read.

Social media is a total mess about this right now. I'm not on it myself, but my kids are reporting to me what they are seeing and reading.

[Heartstrings]

NM.  Shouldn’t muse about math while doing other things.  

Edited December 6, 2023 by Heartstrings
Math hard.

[pinball]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

It’s at least worth noting that we are now at more than 1000 Palestinians dead for each Israeli that was killed on 10/7.  It’s a milestone that is worth consideration.  

1200 Israelis were massacred.

1200 x 1000 = 1,200,000

is this what you mean? That over 1 million Palestinians have died?

am I doing this wrong?

edited to add…some reports say 14000 Palestinians killed. And initial Israeli deaths revised downward from 1400 to 1200.

Edited December 6, 2023 by pinball

[YaelAldrich]

3 hours ago, EmmaNZ said:

Your logic is so flawed. To continue with your analogy - the man runs home and shoots neighbours from his house, which is filled with his whole family. So the police drop an unfathomably huge bomb on the house, killing everyone inside. 

You and I both know that the correct action for the police is to endeavour to punish only the person who committed the crime. Bombing his house and murdering his family is only another crime. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Realistically, if the IDF and Israeli government wanted to rout out Hamas the quickest and safest way for their soldiers would be to flood the tunnels and carpet bomb all of Gaza.  I bet you can't find that has happened. That would be genocide. That would be a war crime. 

So they aren't using an unfathomably large bomb as in your counter example. They target as precisely as possible AFTER sending targeted leaflets, radio, and email warnings to the area (contrary to the propaganda it seems there is Internet and electricity in at least parts of Gaza because I keep seeing video from phones and lit up stores and buildings). They create safe corridors and shepherd people to areas away from the military actions. You can watch the video and see these things happening. 

To go along with the example, if the wife and children have the opportunity to leave safely from the house with the murdering husband and they stay with him, is it expected that the police should then let him be? Then of course the murdering husband will keep the innocents around to keep him from being captured and punished. 

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

1200 Israelis were massacred.

1200 x 1000 = 1,200,000

is this what you mean? That over 1 million Palestinians have died?

am I doing this wrong?

edited to add…some reports say 14000 Palestinians killed. And initial Israeli deaths revised downward from 1400 to 1200.

No, that’s my inability to math while driving then not checking my brain’s mathing.  

Edited December 6, 2023 by Heartstrings

[ArtHaus]

3 hours ago, pinball said:

I think you need a brain shift. The goal of Israel is to protect themselves.

The goal of radical Islamic terrorist groups is to destroy Israel and annihilate all Jews.

I don’t need to “get anywhere.” I’m really happy where I am. I believe Israel is doing the only rational thing they can do to keep from being destroyed.

The Palestinians were brutally attacked in 1948 and beyond. What rational thing should they do/have done to protect themselves? Your logic is off here, as well. 

You and many others seem to make statements that do not contextualize the events properly. This is an egregious error that disassociates history with contemporary events, which is dangerous. 

 

 

 

[EmmaNZ]

5 hours ago, YaelAldrich said:

Realistically, if the IDF and Israeli government wanted to rout out Hamas the quickest and safest way for their soldiers would be to flood the tunnels and carpet bomb all of Gaza.  I bet you can't find that has happened. That would be genocide. That would be a war crime. 

So they aren't using an unfathomably large bomb as in your counter example. They target as precisely as possible AFTER sending targeted leaflets, radio, and email warnings to the area (contrary to the propaganda it seems there is Internet and electricity in at least parts of Gaza because I keep seeing video from phones and lit up stores and buildings). They create safe corridors and shepherd people to areas away from the military actions. You can watch the video and see these things happening. 

To go along with the example, if the wife and children have the opportunity to leave safely from the house with the murdering husband and they stay with him, is it expected that the police should then let him be? Then of course the murdering husband will keep the innocents around to keep him from being captured and punished. 

I'm glad that what we are seeing isn't a genocide then, because that would be really bad 😞  I'm glad that flattening entire neighbourhoods isn't carpet bombing, because that would be a war crime 😞  We must be watching different videos (which I think given the algorithms online is actually a very real possibility).

I personally do not believe much of the propaganda being disseminated. Nowhere in Gaza is safe: that is abundantly clear. No amount of leaflets and warnings is enough, except that it makes some people feel better about the numbers of civilian deaths. Allowing people to believe that if the civilians had only done the right thing, the thing we told them to do, then they wouldn't be dead now. Blaming the victims.

Of course it is not acceptable to allow criminals to get away with awful crimes. They should be brought to justice. But justice does not look like the suffering of an entire population of people: forced to leave their homes, or bombed inside of them. That looks like genocide. 

So I say again - how many civilian deaths is too many? 

[TexasProud]

1 hour ago, EmmaNZ said:

 

Of course it is not acceptable to allow criminals to get away with awful crimes. They should be brought to justice. But justice does not look like the suffering of an entire population of people: forced to leave their homes, or bombed inside of them. That looks like genocide. 

So I say again - how many civilian deaths is too many? 

And there lies the rub.  This is my own take on the situation that is SO incredibly complex.  The Jews tried to get along with their enemies in the 1800's through WW2 and they were almost annihilated.  I think of all the Holocaust movies I have seen where I thought to myself, "Why in the world are they going so willingly to their deaths?"  I would imagine, if I were a Jew that the Holocaust would have broken something inside of me. I would NEVER be passive again.

How many deaths is enough?  Enough so that they are safe and their enemies are gone and they will not be killed 1,000 at a time.

Unfortunately, I believe, what they are doing will make them less safe.  They are killing innocents and causing more hatred toward themselves.  I don't think they will ever be able to truly get rid of Hamas. Ever. Yet, how do they stop all of the attacks and be safe?  What they are doing is not the answer and is wrong. 

It all makes me incredibly sad and I don't know what the answer is, nor how it will ever be resolved until Jesus comes. 

[Ausmumof3]

A person has been taken into custody in Texas after a shooting six people over a period of eight hours.

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67642512

A suspect has been found dead after a shooting at the Las Vegas campus of the University of Nevada (UNLV).

Police said there appeared to be "multiple victims at this time" near the university's Beam Hall building.

No further details were given of the number or type of casualties. Police said the threat was not ongoing.

UNLV and all other Nevada System of Higher Education institutions across the state will be closed for the rest of Wednesday. 

The university first tweeted at around 11:53 local time (19:53 GMT) that police were responding to reports of shots fired on campus.

 

hoping this doesn’t affect anyone personally here 😞 

[Teaching3bears]

Are the Texas and Nevada shootings related in any way?  

[kbutton]

21 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

By their actions Israel is making sure that more and more children grow up traumatized and with a deep hatred.

It could also probably be argued that Hamas strategically aggravates the situation at intervals designed to traumatize their own people into hate to further their own goals.

[Ausmumof3]

We are in for some pretty bad weather here tomorrow, hot, windy and then stormy and a lot of rain. Everyone is edgy tonight. QLD I think are expecting a cyclone. 

[Melissa in Australia]

Thinking of you Ausmum

we have been flooded in for a week, road only just opened last night. If we get any  more rain it will flood again. River is still lapping the road 

I would rather be flooded in any day over bushfires 

[Ausmumof3]

14 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Thinking of you Ausmum

we have been flooded in for a week, road only just opened last night. If we get any  more rain it will flood again. River is still lapping the road 

I would rather be flooded in any day over bushfires 

Oh my goodness! I had no idea there was flooding. We have to get good at having supplies and being self-sufficient hey. And yeah… I don’t have much experience with flooding but at least the occasional type we have here Id take any day over fire. 

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-67622512

A state of emergency has been declared in Seychelles, after a massive explosion at an industrial area on the main island, Mahé, as well as flooding. 

The blast ripped through the zone, flattening commercial buildings and wrecking nearby housing, leaving a trail of devastation along Mahé island's east coast. 

Seychelles' President Wavel Ramkalawan has ordered everyone except essential workers to stay at home.

A number of people have been injured. 

Several people have also been evacuated from their homes.

The blast happened just after 02:00 local time (22:00 GMT Wednesday) at a construction and quarrying company, where explosives were being stored in four containers.

[lauraw4321]

On 12/6/2023 at 3:45 AM, EmmaNZ said:

I'm glad that what we are seeing isn't a genocide then, because that would be really bad 😞  I'm glad that flattening entire neighbourhoods isn't carpet bombing, because that would be a war crime 😞  We must be watching different videos (which I think given the algorithms online is actually a very real possibility).

I personally do not believe much of the propaganda being disseminated. Nowhere in Gaza is safe: that is abundantly clear. No amount of leaflets and warnings is enough, except that it makes some people feel better about the numbers of civilian deaths. Allowing people to believe that if the civilians had only done the right thing, the thing we told them to do, then they wouldn't be dead now. Blaming the victims.

Of course it is not acceptable to allow criminals to get away with awful crimes. They should be brought to justice. But justice does not look like the suffering of an entire population of people: forced to leave their homes, or bombed inside of them. That looks like genocide. 

So I say again - how many civilian deaths is too many? 

How do you know the videos you are seeing accurately portray reality? I’m truly worried that we will lose all ability to decipher what is and isn’t happening because of AI, misinformation, etc. 

I agree that what I’ve seen on social media looks like genocide. But how do I know that what I see is video from Gaza? 

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, lauraw4321 said:

How do you know the videos you are seeing accurately portray reality? I’m truly worried that we will lose all ability to decipher what is and isn’t happening because of AI, misinformation, etc. 

I agree that what I’ve seen on social media looks like genocide. But how do I know that what I see is video from Gaza? 

That’s an interesting perspective. 
 

You know several Israeli news sources have English websites, you can get info through them if you don’t believe American sources.  I like to follow Al Jazerah and BBC as well for balance, but that’s just me.   
 

https://www.haaretz.com  

https://www.timesofisrael.com

https://m.jpost.com

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Heartstrings

[SKL]

War doesn't equal genocide.  War is horrible and ugly, but it doesn't equal genocide.

There's a lot of false information floating around the internet, and probably some true information.  Like all "news," I will wait until the dust settles a bit before I decide I should believe a particular source.

[lauraw4321]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

War doesn't equal genocide.  War is horrible and ugly, but it doesn't equal genocide.

There's a lot of false information floating around the internet, and probably some true information.  Like all "news," I will wait until the dust settles a bit before I decide I should believe a particular source.

Are civilian apartment complexes legitimate war targets? 
 

The issue with waiting is that if there is actual genocide happening, waiting for the dust to settle doesn’t work. I am truly unsure what and who to believe about this war. 

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

The issue with waiting is that if there is actual genocide happening, waiting for the dust to settle doesn’t work. I am truly unsure what and who to believe about this war. 

Well it's not like there's anything I can do about this, whether I wait for good info or not.

I'm sure the people actually waging the war have more accurate info than anyone on WTM.

Edited December 7, 2023 by SKL

[pinball]

37 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

Are civilian apartment complexes legitimate war targets? 
 

The issue with waiting is that if there is actual genocide happening, waiting for the dust to settle doesn’t work. I am truly unsure what and who to believe about this war. 

Israel’s war is against Hamas…Hamas is not a national, racial, ethnic, or religious group. Hamas is a terrorist group. It is not genocide to kill terrorists who have attacked your citizens.

Israel is strategically striking specific targets to kill terrorists and destroy their infrastructure. Everything is being done to avoid killing civilians.

[lauraw4321]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

Israel’s war is against Hamas…Hamas is not a national, racial, ethnic, or religious group. Hamas is a terrorist group. It is not genocide to kill terrorists who have attacked your citizens.

Israel is strategically striking specific targets to kill terrorists and destroy their infrastructure. Everything is being done to avoid killing civilians.

I want to believe this entirely. But there are clearly civilian deaths happening. How many, I don't know. How much they are doing to avoid non-terrorist infrastructure, I don't know. The leaked audio from the meeting with hostages and Netanyahu gives pause. 

And I disagree that I can do "nothing."  I can write my congress person. I can pray. I can vote. 

I also acknowledge that WTM is not the source to use.  Nor is social media. NYT got the hospital bombing wrong. The internet is awash in misinformation. I'm not asking for WTM for information, I'm asking WTM for which sources of information they deem reliable.

[lauraw4321]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

Israel’s war is against Hamas…Hamas is not a national, racial, ethnic, or religious group. Hamas is a terrorist group. It is not genocide to kill terrorists who have attacked your citizens.

Israel is strategically striking specific targets to kill terrorists and destroy their infrastructure. Everything is being done to avoid killing civilians.

And one more point - if destroying Hamas is done so indiscriminately that, let's say, 10 civilians die for every terrorist - then at some point (there must be some point?) doesn't actually become genocide?

[Heartstrings]

10 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

And one more point - if destroying Hamas is done so indiscriminately that, let's say, 10 civilians die for every terrorist - then at some point (there must be some point?) doesn't actually become genocide?

the AP quoted an Israeli military official as saying they’ve killed 5,000 Hamas, which with 16,000 deaths is 2 civilians for each Hamas.  The Times of Israel is saying the same thing.  ( I can’t find the AP article now. )  

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-2-civilian-deaths-for-every-1-hamas-fighter-killed-in-gaza/amp/

 

 

[lauraw4321]

9 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

the AP quoted an Israeli military official as saying they’ve killed 5,000 Hamas, which with 16,000 deaths is 2 civilians for each Hamas.  The Times of Israel is saying the same thing.  ( I can’t find the AP article now. )  

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-2-civilian-deaths-for-every-1-hamas-fighter-killed-in-gaza/amp/

 

 

Is there data that does not come from IDF that is reasonably reliable that matches theses numbers?

[Heartstrings]

25 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

Is there data that does not come from IDF that is reasonably reliable that matches theses numbers?

I don’t think so.  It’s really the best we have right now.  The total death numbers come from Hamas, the number of Hamas dead come from the IDF.  I think there’s too much bombing and such going on for the UN or somebody else to do an accounting, it’s too dangerous.  I don’t know how good the birth and death records would be in a place like Gaza so we may never really have fully accurate independently verified numbers.  
 

The UN Human Rights office uses the word “reportedly”.   (This is from Nov so the numbers are out of date)

“

The bombardment and siege of Gaza have reportedly killed over 11,000 people, injured more than 27,000 and displaced 1.6 million persons since 7 October 2023, while thousands are still under the rubble. Of those killed, about 41 per cent are children and 25 percent are women. On average, one child is killed and two are injured every 10 minutes during the war, turning Gaza into a “graveyard for children,” according to the UN Secretary-General. Almost 200 medics, 102 UN staff, 41 journalists, frontline and human rights defenders, have also been killed, while dozens of families over five generations have been wiped out.

….

They noted that half of the civilian infrastructure in Gaza has been destroyed, including more than 40,000 housing units, as well as hospitals, schools, mosques, bakeries, water pipes, sewage and electricity networks, in a way that threatens to make the continuation of Palestinian life in Gaza impossible.”

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-un-experts-call-international-community-prevent-genocide-against

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Heartstrings

[ArtHaus]

2 hours ago, pinball said:

Israel’s war is against Hamas…Hamas is not a national, racial, ethnic, or religious group. Hamas is a terrorist group. It is not genocide to kill terrorists who have attacked your citizens.

Israel is strategically striking specific targets to kill terrorists and destroy their infrastructure. Everything is being done to avoid killing civilians.

This is categorically incorrect.

Hamas was created in the 1980’s by Israel (under Shamir) as an opposition to the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), who were secular nationalists, a perceived threat to the Israeli State.

It is a religious group birthed by the Islamic Movement, which was/is also used by Israel as a political tool to undermine Palestinian nationalism. 

There is an article in the Haaretz from 2001 by American Ambassador Daniel Kurtzer, giving some insight into what Hamas is. Israeli officials have admitted to funding and creating Hamas. Of course. Arafat also confirmed this years ago.

Aside from that, people should keep in mind that the mere concept of terrorism is a political tool to flow the current of popular opinion down whichever stream is beneficial at any given time. 

Interestingly, the heroism of Baruch Goldstein is debatable amongst Israelis🤷🏻‍♀️. 

Remember the Iraq War? It wasn’t about Terrorism…at all. Surely, most Americans/Westerners understand this, by now.

 

 

 

 

[Amira]

37 minutes ago, ArtHaus said:

This is categorically incorrect.

Hamas was created in the 1980’s by Israel (under Shamir) as an opposition to the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), who were secular nationalists, a perceived threat to the Israeli State.

It is a religious group birthed by the Islamic Movement, which was/is also used by Israel as a political tool to undermine Palestinian nationalism. 

There is an article in the Haaretz from 2001 by American Ambassador Daniel Kurtzer, giving some insight into what Hamas is. Israeli officials have admitted to funding and creating Hamas. Of course. Arafat also confirmed this years ago.

Aside from that, people should keep in mind that the mere concept of terrorism is a political tool to flow the current of popular opinion down whichever stream is beneficial at any given time. 

Interestingly, the heroism of Baruch Goldstein is debatable amongst Israelis🤷🏻‍♀️. 

Remember the Iraq War? It wasn’t about Terrorism…at all. Surely, most Americans/Westerners understand this, by now.

I will not be engaging directly with this poster, but for others who are reading, I wanted to push back on this false narrative that Israel created Hamas.  There’s no question that Hamas has received money from a wide variety of sources, including Israel, and it’s possible to discuss how much Israel’s actions have influenced Hamas and its trajectory, but Israel did not “create” Hamas. That’s a huge oversimplification of Hamas’s origins.

It is not necessary or right to denigrate everything about Israel to show support for Palestinians. 

[lauraw4321]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I don’t think so.  It’s really the best we have right now.  The total death numbers come from Hamas, the number of Hamas dead come from the IDF.  I think there’s too much bombing and such going on for the UN or somebody else to do an accounting, it’s too dangerous.  I don’t know how good the birth and death records would be in a place like Gaza so we may never really have fully accurate independently verified numbers.  
 

The UN Human Rights office uses the word “reportedly”.   (This is from Nov so the numbers are out of date)

“

The bombardment and siege of Gaza have reportedly killed over 11,000 people, injured more than 27,000 and displaced 1.6 million persons since 7 October 2023, while thousands are still under the rubble. Of those killed, about 41 per cent are children and 25 percent are women. On average, one child is killed and two are injured every 10 minutes during the war, turning Gaza into a “graveyard for children,” according to the UN Secretary-General. Almost 200 medics, 102 UN staff, 41 journalists, frontline and human rights defenders, have also been killed, while dozens of families over five generations have been wiped out.

….

They noted that half of the civilian infrastructure in Gaza has been destroyed, including more than 40,000 housing units, as well as hospitals, schools, mosques, bakeries, water pipes, sewage and electricity networks, in a way that threatens to make the continuation of Palestinian life in Gaza impossible.”

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-un-experts-call-international-community-prevent-genocide-against

 

This reads like genocide to me. It's just so overwhelmingly sad.

[lauraw4321]

3 minutes ago, Amira said:

I will not be engaging directly with this poster, but for others who are reading, I wanted to push back on this false narrative that Israel created Hamas.  There’s no question that Hamas has received money from a wide variety of sources, including Israel, and it’s possible to discuss how much Israel’s actions have influenced Hamas and its trajectory, but Israel did not “create” Hamas. That’s a huge oversimplification of Hamas’s origins.

It is not necessary or right to denigrate everything about Israel to show support for Palestinians. 

Thank you for saying this. I tried to engage with someone IRL and their position was basically the opposite of what you have said (bolded). In addition to not being right, it doesn't help anything.

The one small thing I do think I can also do (besides what I have listed above) is to gently, IRL, push back against the white evangelical view of the State of Israel as the exact same thing as Israel of the Bible, which has fueled a really weird political posture in the US that isn't actually biblical and certainly doesn't promote peace in the world.

Edited: And I think we all know to avoid the troll.

Edited December 7, 2023 by lauraw4321

[Condessa]

5 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

Are civilian apartment complexes legitimate war targets? 

Well, if terrorists are firing guns out of it and operating from a base underneath it, and you do your best to get all the civilians out of harm’s way first, then yeah.  
 

If that’s the location your opponent has chosen to wage war from, that was the choice he made.  Your choice at that point is to fight him where he is, or to stand and let him kill you.  You don’t get to choose to fight him where he’s not.

 

ETA:  Whether the efforts to get civilians out of harm’s way are sufficient is the real question, in my opinion.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Condessa

[SKL]

An easy example from today's various "news" sources - the same photo is represented as Hamas operatives flushed out of a tunnel (by the Israel side) and as tortured, dehumanized Palestinian civilians (by the Hamas side).  Other than the fact that everyone in the photo appears to be a grown man, I don't know what to believe.  Anyone can say anything about a photo or video posted on the internet.

[Ausmumof3]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

An easy example from today's various "news" sources - the same photo is represented as Hamas operatives flushed out of a tunnel (by the Israel side) and as tortured, dehumanized Palestinian civilians (by the Hamas side).  Other than the fact that everyone in the photo appears to be a grown man, I don't know what to believe.  Anyone can say anything about a photo or video posted on the internet.

I wish the photo hadn’t been posted- understand the need to strip search for weapons but to post it like that with the desire to humiliate, no.

The claims I’ve seen is they were just civilians in a U.N. school. That seems like a lot of grown men for a school, and as far as I know they were in North Gaza. 

[SKL]

And back to the original thing we have to remember - Hamas started this on purpose knowing, and intending, that Palestinian civilians would be uprooted and killed.  They also locate their operations in places where they know civilians are vulnerable.  On purpose.

What exactly does "cease fire" mean in this context?  If Israel didn't retaliate, what do people think Hamas was going to do next?  Send flowers?

I hope and pray that those running the war will try their best to minimize civilian casualties.  Unfortunately, civilian casualties happen in wars.  Even when highly advanced militaries are trying to prevent them.  I hate it.  But is there a realistic alternative to military retaliation in this case?

I mean I guess there is.  We could set aside land in the USA for the Israelis to all move here permanently.  They will have plenty of company - we already have a bigger Jewish population than Israel does.  Then the remaining folks in the middle east won't have anything to fight about.  It will be all flowers and sunshine over there, forever, just like it always was before Israel existed.  Let's do it!

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I wish the photo hadn’t been posted- understand the need to strip search for weapons but to post it like that with the desire to humiliate, no.

The claims I’ve seen is they were just civilians in a U.N. school. That seems like a lot of grown men for a school, and as far as I know they were in North Gaza. 

Yeah I wish I hadn't seen a video of a young woman bleeding profusely from her privates on October 7.

There's more than enough ugly to go around, unfortunately.

[Ausmumof3]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah I wish I hadn't seen a video of a young woman bleeding profusely from her privates on October 7.

There's more than enough ugly to go around, unfortunately.

That’s an image that will never leave my mind. 

[kbutton]

49 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

The one small thing I do think I can also do (besides what I have listed above) is to gently, IRL, push back against the white evangelical view of the State of Israel as the exact same thing as Israel of the Bible, which has fueled a really weird political posture in the US that isn't actually biblical and certainly doesn't promote peace in the world.

I think doing so cautiously is an act of good. There are many interpretations of ancient vs. modern Israel within Christianity, and all of them that I know of have room for critical thinking about how to respond to the concept of a contemporary Israel IF people are acting in good faith. That might go farther than persuading people to alter their theology—pushing back on how their theology leads them to take positions and if those positions are in alignment with broader teachings of Jesus if that makes sense.

 

[Pam in CT]

There's way too much going on in this thread, and I'm coming in way too late, for me to participate meaningfully on the Big Picture.

On this one small but important issue:

40 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

...The one small thing I do think I can also do... is to gently, IRL, push back against the white evangelical view of the State of Israel as the exact same thing as Israel of the Bible, which has fueled a really weird political posture in the US that isn't actually biblical and certainly doesn't promote peace in the world.

Edited: And I think we all know to avoid the troll.

... I would add that the white evangelical view of the State of Israel has virtually nothing to do with concern for the well-being of actual Jews even in Israel (and exactly nothing to do with the well-being of Jews living in America).  That worldview is motivated by a vision of end-times and the necessary precursors for it (including the in-gathering of the diaspora Over There). 

It is ENTIRELY possible to hold that worldview, "support Israel" as a means of hastening the coming of the next world... and simultaneously to be quite indifferent to the well-being of Jews in this world. (Or NBD/ move on when men bearing sharpened flagpoles flying swastikas and Iron Cross swarm the Capitol to keep their guy in power.  Or actively disseminate Great Replacement Theory and and Soros tropes. And etc.) 

When "support for Israel" amounts to "hasten the Rapture at which point the Jews will be Left Behind" -- and for a segment of evangelicals, that is precisely what "support for Israel" does mean -- it is entirely consistent, ideologically, with antisemitism.

 

 

 

 

(Opposition to specific policies of a particular leader of a particular state is not antisemitism.  Any more than even very-strongly-held opposition to a particular POTUS/ particular US policies makes any of us Americans "traitors."  This should go without saying and yet, saying it. )

[KSera]

41 minutes ago, Condessa said:

ETA:  Whether the efforts to get civilians out of harm’s way are sufficient is the real question, in my opinion.

I think there's the rub. How and where can that many civilians be safely and humanely housed out of harm's way? What will they have to come back to?

32 minutes ago, SKL said:

And back to the original thing we have to remember - Hamas started this on purpose knowing, and intending, that Palestinian civilians would be uprooted and killed.  They also locate their operations in places where they know civilians are vulnerable.  On purpose.

Yes, we know that Hamas does this on purpose and uses Palestinians as shields in this way, but does that mean it's okay to follow through and do exactly that which Hamas expects/wants as far as civilian casualties?

25 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

That’s an image that will never leave my mind. 

I keep seeing people mention all these various horrific images, but have so far been fortunate not to see them. I'd question who benefits from people viewing these things. Who is harmed? Does anyone think the people in the pictures want the world viewing them in those moments? I'd personally be heavily avoiding media sources that are sharing these pictures. I don't even know if people are seeing them mostly on social media or if they are coming from new sites. I haven't had trouble avoiding them when reading news.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

I keep seeing people mention all these various horrific images, but have so far been fortunate not to see them. I'd question who benefits from people viewing these things. Who is harmed? Does anyone think the people in the pictures want the world viewing them in those moments? I'd personally be heavily avoiding media sources that are sharing these pictures. I don't even know if people are seeing them mostly on social media or if they are coming from new sites. I haven't had trouble avoiding them when reading news.

Yes, you're fortunate.

I much prefer to look away, and usually do.  But to some extent, it's also important to witness things as directly as possible - especially in a world where you don't know whom to believe.

It seemed to take less than 24 hours for many humans to be convinced that October 7 never happened.  It was all a white / Judeo-Christian supremacist hoax to excuse Palestinian genocide.

It turns out that humans are incredibly easy to brainwash, despite all our education and good intentions.  Fighting the good fight includes fighting this human vulnerability.

[KSera]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

I much prefer to look away, and usually do.  But to some extent, it's also important to witness things as directly as possible - especially in a world where you don't know whom to believe.

It seemed to take less than 24 hours for many humans to be convinced that October 7 never happened.  It was all a white / Judeo-Christian supremacist hoax to excuse Palestinian genocide.

It turns out that humans are incredibly easy to brainwash, despite all our education and good intentions.  Fighting the good fight includes fighting this human vulnerability.

I understand that point of view. I just feel personally for myself that seeing pictures of people being dehumanized isn't helpful. I don't think it's the same as "looking away" when one is actively reading, talking, and thinking about what is happening. I know what happened and that it was beyond horrific. Frankly, with the advent of AI, even seeing pictures is no longer a way to verify what did and didn't happen. There's no question about what Hamas did that day though. I was just curious where people keep seeing such pictures. In part so I know the chances of whether my young adults are seeing them without looking for them.

[Heartstrings]

13 minutes ago, SKL said:

It seemed to take less than 24 hours for many humans to be convinced that October 7 never happened.  It was all a white / Judeo-Christian supremacist hoax to excuse Palestinian genocide

That's interesting, I haven't seen any denial that it happened and I'm on social media entirely too much.  

 

[Ausmumof3]

27 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think there's the rub. How and where can that many civilians be safely and humanely housed out of harm's way? What will they have to come back to?

Yes, we know that Hamas does this on purpose and uses Palestinians as shields in this way, but does that mean it's okay to follow through and do exactly that which Hamas expects/wants as far as civilian casualties?

I keep seeing people mention all these various horrific images, but have so far been fortunate not to see them. I'd question who benefits from people viewing these things. Who is harmed? Does anyone think the people in the pictures want the world viewing them in those moments? I'd personally be heavily avoiding media sources that are sharing these pictures. I don't even know if people are seeing them mostly on social media or if they are coming from new sites. I haven't had trouble avoiding them when reading news.

Social media 

I generally don’t want to see stuff like that but there is a crazy level of denial around what happened. I do think the initial images make what has happened afterwards far more comprehensible. 
 

I am not finding mainstream news very reliable at the moment. I think Covid denial made me lose trust, and now more so. (Not a MSM is all a fraud conspiracy person at all, just that it’s far from perfect!)

Social media obviously has a tonne more fake stuff but also a lot of people debunking. So for example, an image is shared from the Syrian war as being Palestine and there’s immediately twenty people identifying where it came from.  

Edited December 7, 2023 by Ausmumof3

[Heartstrings]

Just now, KSera said:

I understand that point of view. I just feel personally for myself that seeing pictures of people being dehumanized isn't helpful. I don't think it's the same as "looking away" when one is actively reading, talking, and thinking about what is happening. I know what happened and that it was beyond horrific. Frankly, with the advent of AI, even seeing pictures is no longer a way to verify what did and didn't happen. There's no question about what Hamas did that day though. I was just curious where people keep seeing such pictures. In part so I know the chances of whether my young adults are seeing them without looking for them.

I'm on tik tok a lot where its algorithm based.  If you watch a full video (5 or 6 seconds up to 3 minutes) of images like that you'll get more and more.  If you scroll quickly past the first one or two of those videos you won't see the graphic ones anymore.  So I'm getting a lot of information based videos and videos of rubble but not the graphic ones. 

I was getting some terrible ones for about a day, from Doctors Without Borders about doing amputations in Gaza on the floor of the hospital with no anesthesia.  One shown a boy getting ready for his, while his sister was nearby waiting for her turn and that haunted me.  It was originally on their twitter and DWB is usually a relatively  trustworthy source.   Then I started scrolling past them and don't see those anymore.  

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I'm on tik tok a lot where its algorithm based.  If you watch a full video (5 or 6 seconds up to 3 minutes) of images like that you'll get more and more.  If you scroll quickly past the first one or two of those videos you won't see the graphic ones anymore.  So I'm getting a lot of information based videos and videos of rubble but not the graphic ones. 

I was getting some terrible ones for about a day, from Doctors Without Borders about doing amputations in Gaza on the floor of the hospital with no anesthesia.  One shown a boy getting ready for his, while his sister was nearby waiting for her turn and that haunted me.  It was originally on their twitter and DWB is usually a relatively  trustworthy source.   Then I started scrolling past them and don't see those anymore.  

Yeah I hate how that works.  I have to do periodic "timeline cleanses" by watching cute animal videos and BTS stuff.  But I also don't want to live in a bubble.

[Ausmumof3]

9 minutes ago, KSera said:

I understand that point of view. I just feel personally for myself that seeing pictures of people being dehumanized isn't helpful. I don't think it's the same as "looking away" when one is actively reading, talking, and thinking about what is happening. I know what happened and that it was beyond horrific. Frankly, with the advent of AI, even seeing pictures is no longer a way to verify what did and didn't happen. There's no question about what Hamas did that day though. I was just curious where people keep seeing such pictures. In part so I know the chances of whether my young adults are seeing them without looking for them.

Twitter/x for me. Nothing on Facebook. I don’t use TikTok or Insta. I have given my older teen a general… please be careful what you’re viewing if you’re on this platform. 

 

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Social media obviously has a tonne more fake stuff but also a lot of people debunking. So for example, an image is shared from the Syrian war as being Palestine and there’s immediately twenty people identifying where it came from.  

I think that kind of stuff is from them being in a hurry to get the article out.  They don't want to wait for a picture so they just plug a random one in.  You would think they would have learned to not do that by now though, they always get caught and it makes them look bad.  It bothers me more that they keep doing it, just put "image forth coming" or caption it "random picture of war as place holder"  or something more honest.