WWYD-issues with birth mother

[Katy]

Just now, BandH said:

This is true in other kinds of adoption as well.

There are kinds of adoption where it can be reversed even years later though.  I guess it's possible laws have changed but I remember a few horrifying cases in the news when I was a teen where quite old children adopted at birth were returned to one of their birth parents.

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

There are kinds of adoption where it can be reversed even years later though.  I guess it's possible laws have changed but I remember a few horrifying cases in the news when I was a teen where quite old children adopted at birth were returned to one of their birth parents.

Generally, that happens because something was done wrong early in the process, there may have been fraud, or the adoption might have been allowed based on incorrect information.  

The same thing can happen in foster care adoption.   Foster care adoptions can be appealed when there is a procedural problem.

But it sounds like Dawn knows enough to know the basis for the case, and she obviously wasn't involved in fraud.  A's birthmother doesn't have anything to bring to court.  

[Carol in Cal.]

I've read all the replies and I think a simple but accurate way to think about the situation is that the mother was always a danger to the child.  The grandmother always enabled the mother.  These are not going to get better because the baby is gone.  They are still the same people.

It's important to Dawn to know where the mother is and what she is expressing at all times.  And it's important to protect the baby's privacy and future.

So the advice to document concurrently is absolutely crucial, and sharing that information with someone else, whether in law enforcement or a friend or a lawyer as you go along could prove to be helpful from an evidentiary standpoint later on, which could become very important.

The question of the pictures is just the leading edge of these larger overall issues, and not the crucial one.  The crucial one is how can the baby be kept safe and unthreatened going forward, with an obsessive, mentally ill, druggie mother in the picture.  The documentation is the most important thing in that question.

If I were Dawn, I would see a lawyer and ask specifically what steps are mostly likely to keep her looking exemplary to the courts (pictures?  no pictures?  Descriptive, informative letters annually?  Nothing at all?) and how to balance the need to look good to the courts with the protection issues that are very significant here.  I would also google myself, and maybe even hire a service to do that, to find out how easy it would be to find me IRL; and take steps to make that more difficult.  This is because with a birth mother like this, small 'slow downs' are probably going to be the most likely thing to prevent an unexpected visit, which would almost certainly be traumatic, and maybe even dangerous.

[DawnM]

11 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

If there is a way to document with the court the birth mother’s violations of the agreement, I would do it. Not because they would necessarily do anything about it directly, but if she did try to petition the court for custody then there is already a record of her violations. 

Not really.   The documents said SHE can go to the courts if I am not providing the photos, and they will contact me to ask if I would mind sending some (they told me they can't enforce it on my end but they will "encourage" me to send photos on her behalf.)

I don't think she can petition for custody.   I know she can never reverse the adoption.   It is final and she signed it in agreement.

In retrospect, I am glad the entire process dragged as much as it did because they really dotted every i and crossed every t.    

10 hours ago, Katy said:

I know Dawn knows this, but foster adoption isn't like other adoption.  It is permanent and bio parents cannot appeal once adoption is finalized. There's no way to get an attorney and get him back. Showing up there to kidnap him will land her in prison.

I do understand the fear though. I'd likely ask an attorney about putting your next house in a family corporation or  trust that is named for something she couldn't guess. That would not only stop her from finding your address easily, it might also protect any kids who want to continue to live in the house after one or both of you dies.

I'd definitely change your name on all social media, but only after blocking everyone connected with them. And change your number, even though it's a huge hassle.

good thoughts

10 hours ago, Katy said:

There are kinds of adoption where it can be reversed even years later though.  I guess it's possible laws have changed but I remember a few horrifying cases in the news when I was a teen where quite old children adopted at birth were returned to one of their birth parents.

Wow, I would be interested in the entire back story on that one.

10 hours ago, BandH said:

Generally, that happens because something was done wrong early in the process, there may have been fraud, or the adoption might have been allowed based on incorrect information.  

The same thing can happen in foster care adoption.   Foster care adoptions can be appealed when there is a procedural problem.

But it sounds like Dawn knows enough to know the basis for the case, and she obviously wasn't involved in fraud.  A's birthmother doesn't have anything to bring to court.  

Fraud is what her twisted mind keeps saying happened.   But once she starts talking you realize she means that the entire court system, the police, some old friends she had a beef with, and family are all conspiring to take her child away.   

[marbel]

18 hours ago, bolt. said:

Can she really "come for you"? Not without some form of transportation, and information about your physical address and stomping grounds -- which are a lot of obstacles for a homeless drug addict. And if she does? And she finds you? And she shouts at you? Then she will be nearby you disturbing the peace, and you can get away and/or get help from the usual authorities. Being shouted at is no fun, but neither is this way that you seem to be on edge about the potential that she might do that. You really don't need to be on edge about something that wouldn't actually be that bad if it happened.

I think you are really minimizing this. Right, odds are that biomom can't actually do anything. But thoughts become actions and even homeless drug addicts may find ways to commit crimes. It would be very surprising to have this woman find Dawn and her (Dawn's) son but if she did manage it, why would you think it would just be limited to the woman shouting at Dawn? You - none of us - have any idea of what might happen. 

Dawn, I'm praying and will continue to pray for your family. 

[Faith-manor]

9 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I've read all the replies and I think a simple but accurate way to think about the situation is that the mother was always a danger to the child.  The grandmother always enabled the mother.  These are not going to get better because the baby is gone.  They are still the same people.

It's important to Dawn to know where the mother is and what she is expressing at all times.  And it's important to protect the baby's privacy and future.

So the advice to document concurrently is absolutely crucial, and sharing that information with someone else, whether in law enforcement or a friend or a lawyer as you go along could prove to be helpful from an evidentiary standpoint later on, which could become very important.

The question of the pictures is just the leading edge of these larger overall issues, and not the crucial one.  The crucial one is how can the baby be kept safe and unthreatened going forward, with an obsessive, mentally ill, druggie mother in the picture.  The documentation is the most important thing in that question.

If I were Dawn, I would see a lawyer and ask specifically what steps are mostly likely to keep her looking exemplary to the courts (pictures?  no pictures?  Descriptive, informative letters annually?  Nothing at all?) and how to balance the need to look good to the courts with the protection issues that are very significant here.  I would also google myself, and maybe even hire a service to do that, to find out how easy it would be to find me IRL; and take steps to make that more difficult.  This is because with a birth mother like this, small 'slow downs' are probably going to be the most likely thing to prevent an unexpected visit, which would almost certainly be traumatic, and maybe even dangerous.

This is an excellent perspective, Carol.

Also, to the poster who felt there was nothing that drug mother could really do from California because "homeless druggie", I would like to relate a story from within my own family.

I have a niece who has three children by two different men. The younger two are in the sole custody of their father, a not great father but the grandma makes sure they are well cared for, fed, clothed, getting well child check ups, doing their homework, etc. So they are okay. The reason niece had, at the time, only supervised visitation? She is diagnosed bipolar, refuses to take prescribed meds or work with her psychiatrist and therapist, and instead self medicated with alcohol and drugs. At one point she was homeless in SC while the children lived in my area of Michigan. She managed to " woe is me" and lie like a fiend all over social media which ended with gofundme crowd sourcing of a large sum of money for her to buy a car with cash, fill the tank as needed, and come to Michigan to try to kidnap her kids.

It is very naive to assume that an unstable person who is homeless cannot get their hands on cash and resources to do something dangerous several states away. This isn't some rare issue. People really do have to worry about this. I know foster parents who have had to ask for foster children to be moved because crazy, out of state, indigent bios have been able to figure out where their kids are, and have engaged in very scary stalking. A lot of people are taken in by any crazy story they see on facebook. They get enraged at the "wrong", and start throwing money at the person posting such stories. They require zero verification of circumstances, of truthfulness of stories, of facts. None.

[SKL]

I agree that this is very serious.

Also, "homeless" doesn't necessarily mean what some people think it means.  AFAIK in the US, homeless just means you are not the owner or lessor of a house or apartment.  If you're an adult living with a friend or family member or in any temporary housing situation, you are a homeless statistic.  In other words, it doesn't mean you're penniless, living under a bridge, and eating out of garbage cans.

A relatively able-bodied woman has lots of ways to get quick cash, which I don't need to list here.

It is good that Dawn is physically far away from this nut, but she does need to watch her and be alert, possibly for the next 14 years, and that absolutely sucks.  The evil voice in my head is saying I hope that woman finds herself in prison again so Dawn can have some temporary peace.  😞

[Halftime Hope]

15 hours ago, DawnM said:

Wait, what niece?  There is a birth mother, a birth father, and a birth grandmother.

Oh, I'm so sorry! I may have been mixing up stories from something else on WTM. Somehow, I thought it was your niece that was the birthmother. I'm so sorry!

[Halftime Hope]

2 hours ago, DawnM said:

Not really.   The documents said SHE can go to the courts if I am not providing the photos, and they will contact me to ask if I would mind sending some (they told me they can't enforce it on my end but they will "encourage" me to send photos on her behalf.)

That said, @DawnM, this is perfect. Imagine that you go no contact. She petitions the court. (It probably will not play out this way, but follow this with me...) The court contacts you, and you tell them, with documentation, what led you to go no contact. (Be sure that the court has an official  way to contact you, through your lawyer's office, but that they do not have any record of your current contact information.) 

[Grace Hopper]

14 hours ago, Katy said:

I know Dawn knows this, but foster adoption isn't like other adoption.  It is permanent and bio parents cannot appeal once adoption is finalized. There's no way to get an attorney and get him back. Showing up there to kidnap him will land her in prison.

I do understand the fear though. I'd likely ask an attorney about putting your next house in a family corporation or  trust that is named for something she couldn't guess. That would not only stop her from finding your address easily, it might also protect any kids who want to continue to live in the house after one or both of you dies.

I'd definitely change your name on all social media, but only after blocking everyone connected with them. And change your number, even though it's a huge hassle.

The sound like such big steps to take to protect one’s privacy, but they are steps I’d be taking. 

3 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

This is an excellent perspective, Carol.

Also, to the poster who felt there was nothing that drug mother could really do from California because "homeless druggie", I would like to relate a story from within my own family.

I have a niece who has three children by two different men. The younger two are in the sole custody of their father, a not great father but the grandma makes sure they are well cared for, fed, clothed, getting well child check ups, doing their homework, etc. So they are okay. The reason niece had, at the time, only supervised visitation? She is diagnosed bipolar, refuses to take prescribed meds or work with her psychiatrist and therapist, and instead self medicated with alcohol and drugs. At one point she was homeless in SC while the children lived in my area of Michigan. She managed to " woe is me" and lie like a fiend all over social media which ended with gofundme crowd sourcing of a large sum of money for her to buy a car with cash, fill the tank as needed, and come to Michigan to try to kidnap her kids.

It is very naive to assume that an unstable person who is homeless cannot get their hands on cash and resources to do something dangerous several states away. This isn't some rare issue. People really do have to worry about this. I know foster parents who have had to ask for foster children to be moved because crazy, out of state, indigent bios have been able to figure out where their kids are, and have engaged in very scary stalking. A lot of people are taken in by any crazy story they see on facebook. They get enraged at the "wrong", and start throwing money at the person posting such stories. They require zero verification of circumstances, of truthfulness of stories, of facts. None.

I have seen my extended family member both move mountainous projects and spontaneously travel cross-country while in unmedicated manic phases. You just can’t say never. 

[Faith-manor]

35 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

The sound like such big steps to take to protect one’s privacy, but they are steps I’d be taking. 

I have seen my extended family member both move mountainous projects and spontaneously travel cross-country while in unmedicated manic phases. You just can’t say never. 

It is gut wrenching to watch.

[DawnM]

3 hours ago, Halftime Hope said:

Oh, I'm so sorry! I may have been mixing up stories from something else on WTM. Somehow, I thought it was your niece that was the birthmother. I'm so sorry!

Oh, no, sorry.     It is complicated and confusing.

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by DawnM

[Drama Llama]

6 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

Wow, I would be interested in the entire back story on that one.

The most famous case where the child ended up with birth parents was Baby Richard.

The baby’s birthparents were living together but not married until a few weeks before the birth, at which point they had a fight.  Mom kicked Dad out and then told him the child had been stillborn.  She placed the child for adoption and he entered a potential adoptive home at 4 days.  The potential adoptive parents knew that it was an at risk placement because the father had not given consent.

When the father found out his child was alive he immediately contacted hospitals and filed to establish paternity and stop the adoption which had not happened.  At that point the baby was a few months old and while reuniting him with his father would have been hard for the potential adoptive parents, it probably wouldn’t have been traumatic for the baby.  But the potential adoptive parents dragged the process out in courts so that they could argue that he would be traumatized.  That is they intentionally set up a situation where a child could be traumatize so that they could steal (in my opinion) the child.  The child was returned to his father in the end, which was undoubtedly very hard but the other option was to allow a precedent that if you steal someone’s child you can keep it.  That is 100% different from Dawn’s situation.

There is a similar situation going on now with the little girl from Afghanistan who was adopted by the marine and his wife who lied to both the courts and her family.  If that little girl ends up being returned to her family it will undoubtedly be hard for her, but again in my opinion it will be the right choice.

 

 

[Scarlett]

There was also the native case out of OK where the birth father eventually gave up because it was just too traumatic for the little girl.  
 

The things humans do to other humans.  
 

If you are adopting a child and find out said child is basically STOLEN then give child back without a fight.  

Agree though Dawn did not steal this child.  That message BM left @Dawn was bone chilling imo.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Scarlett

[Harriet Vane]

18 hours ago, Katy said:

I know Dawn knows this, but foster adoption isn't like other adoption.  It is permanent and bio parents cannot appeal once adoption is finalized. There's no way to get an attorney and get him back. Showing up there to kidnap him will land her in prison.

I do understand the fear though. I'd likely ask an attorney about putting your next house in a family corporation or  trust that is named for something she couldn't guess. That would not only stop her from finding your address easily, it might also protect any kids who want to continue to live in the house after one or both of you dies.

I'd definitely change your name on all social media, but only after blocking everyone connected with them. And change your number, even though it's a huge hassle.

Excellent ideas.

[Harriet Vane]

17 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I've read all the replies and I think a simple but accurate way to think about the situation is that the mother was always a danger to the child.  The grandmother always enabled the mother.  These are not going to get better because the baby is gone.  They are still the same people.

It's important to Dawn to know where the mother is and what she is expressing at all times.  And it's important to protect the baby's privacy and future.

So the advice to document concurrently is absolutely crucial, and sharing that information with someone else, whether in law enforcement or a friend or a lawyer as you go along could prove to be helpful from an evidentiary standpoint later on, which could become very important.

The question of the pictures is just the leading edge of these larger overall issues, and not the crucial one.  The crucial one is how can the baby be kept safe and unthreatened going forward, with an obsessive, mentally ill, druggie mother in the picture.  The documentation is the most important thing in that question.

If I were Dawn, I would see a lawyer and ask specifically what steps are mostly likely to keep her looking exemplary to the courts (pictures?  no pictures?  Descriptive, informative letters annually?  Nothing at all?) and how to balance the need to look good to the courts with the protection issues that are very significant here.  I would also google myself, and maybe even hire a service to do that, to find out how easy it would be to find me IRL; and take steps to make that more difficult.  This is because with a birth mother like this, small 'slow downs' are probably going to be the most likely thing to prevent an unexpected visit, which would almost certainly be traumatic, and maybe even dangerous.

Yes. Spot on.

[prairiewindmomma]

19 hours ago, Katy said:

I know Dawn knows this, but foster adoption isn't like other adoption.  It is permanent and bio parents cannot appeal once adoption is finalized. There's no way to get an attorney and get him back. Showing up there to kidnap him will land her in prison.

I do understand the fear though. I'd likely ask an attorney about putting your next house in a family corporation or  trust that is named for something she couldn't guess. That would not only stop her from finding your address easily, it might also protect any kids who want to continue to live in the house after one or both of you dies.

I'd definitely change your name on all social media, but only after blocking everyone connected with them. And change your number, even though it's a huge hassle.

This. Another thing to consider is that if/when you move, have your mail forwarded to a paid post office box rather than to your new home for a time. 
 

Because this is a family situation, it is hard to keep information contained. I’d give serious thought as to all of the people grandma knows as well. 

[Katy]

The case I remember most from my childhood was Baby Jessica. Which probably sticks in my mind because there was another Baby Jessica who got stuck in a well and I thought it was bad luck to be named Jessica. But I think there were many others. At least 3, and I think one of the children was over age 4. They were all cases where either the mother changed her mind in the state’s allowed period to do so and the adoptive parents evaded returning the baby or where the father hadn’t consented. 
 

https://www.encyclopedia.com/law/law-magazines/baby-jessica-case-1993#:~:text=By the end of 1991,Clara Clausen and Dan Schmidt.

[Idalou]

2 hours ago, BandH said:

 

There is a similar situation going on now with the little girl from Afghanistan who was adopted by the marine and his wife who lied to both the courts and her family.  If that little girl ends up being returned to her family it will undoubtedly be hard for her, but again in my opinion it will be the right choice.

 

 

I remember reading about this piece of sh!t marine and his wife. Lying to a judge to get her, luring her Afghan relatives to America, then taking her from them. All because he felt it as a show of his Christian faith? He's a thief of the worst kind, a disgrace to the military, this country, and Christianity. 

[Bambam]

I'm sorry you are going though this, Dawn.

I'm wondering  - is there a trusted reliable person you can ask to monitor her FB account (and any other social media accounts - either of her or her relatives) and they can pass on any needed alerts to you? If I were in your shoes, I might be obsessively checking, which would not be good for my mental health - or perspective, and having a reliable person I could trust to do the monitoring would definitely be a help to me. 

[pinball]

23 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I have a niece who has three children by two different men. The younger two are in the sole custody of their father, a not great father but the grandma makes sure they are well cared for, fed, clothed, getting well child check ups, doing their homework, etc. So they are okay. The reason niece had, at the time, only supervised visitation? She is diagnosed bipolar, refuses to take prescribed meds or work with her psychiatrist and therapist, and instead self medicated with alcohol and drugs. At one point she was homeless in SC while the children lived in my area of Michigan. She managed to " woe is me" and lie like a fiend all over social media which ended with gofundme crowd sourcing of a large sum of money for her to buy a car with cash, fill the tank as needed, and come to Michigan to try to kidnap her kids.

OMG this gives me chills.

I could have written this story

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, pinball said:

OMG this gives me chills.

I could have written this story

It was VERY scary!

She is on her meds now, and has limited, supervised visits when she can get herself to the area to see them. But we all still live on pins and needles until these kids are older and can advocate for themselves, move away, live their lives.

We just keep hoping that over time, she fades away to other obsessions because that would be so much better for her children.

[DawnM]

18 hours ago, Bambam said:

I'm sorry you are going though this, Dawn.

I'm wondering  - is there a trusted reliable person you can ask to monitor her FB account (and any other social media accounts - either of her or her relatives) and they can pass on any needed alerts to you? If I were in your shoes, I might be obsessively checking, which would not be good for my mental health - or perspective, and having a reliable person I could trust to do the monitoring would definitely be a help to me. 

Not really.  I tried with DH and a close friend but I found that I didn't really trust their judgement because A.) they really didn't care as much as I did so they rarely (if ever) checked the account, B.) They wanted to "protect" me and wouldn't tell me what was actually posted, and C.) They literally NEVER told me ANYTHING was posted by her or would say, "Oh, I don't know, I haven't checked it I a while, I am sure it is fine."

So, I continue to monitor.   No amount of telling me, "Oh, it is fine, don't worry about it" is going to help me, it just isn't.

[Harriet Vane]

11 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Not really.  I tried with DH and a close friend but I found that I didn't really trust their judgement because A.) they really didn't care as much as I did so they rarely (if ever) checked the account, B.) They wanted to "protect" me and wouldn't tell me what was actually posted, and C.) They literally NEVER told me ANYTHING was posted by her or would say, "Oh, I don't know, I haven't checked it I a while, I am sure it is fine."

So, I continue to monitor.   No amount of telling me, "Oh, it is fine, don't worry about it" is going to help me, it just isn't.

That is condescending, infuriating, and downright unsafe.

 I’m sorry you have to shoulder this burden. Truly so sorry.

[Bambam]

13 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Not really.  I tried with DH and a close friend but I found that I didn't really trust their judgement because A.) they really didn't care as much as I did so they rarely (if ever) checked the account, B.) They wanted to "protect" me and wouldn't tell me what was actually posted, and C.) They literally NEVER told me ANYTHING was posted by her or would say, "Oh, I don't know, I haven't checked it I a while, I am sure it is fine."

So, I continue to monitor.   No amount of telling me, "Oh, it is fine, don't worry about it" is going to help me, it just isn't.

I'm sorry. It is difficult. 

If it were me, I would check early in the morning, and try not to check throughout the day. I would try to never check after supper because if there was anything upsetting, that would make good sleep difficult for me - mostly because I would be imagining and dreaming up witty/cutting responses or just being outraged. I know I should be silent, but I can dream up some pretty nice responses in my head. I still haven't figured out if that is good for me or not though!