Just thoughts and ramblings for today about narcissism (and a personal account)

[Indigo Blue]

I don’t know if you remember my posting about my mom and her argument with her GC granddaughter (my sibling’s child) and the resulting immediate no contact put in place by her granddaughter. This was before Thanksgiving. 
 

Just thinking about this more. Often, when I became entangled with mom, it was hard for me to have a clear perspective. In this situation with granddaughter, I can look at it as a bystander. It’s sad that this happened, but it’s helpful to me to be able to see from this perspective. 
 

At first, she recounted the story of The Argument. Then, she began to state how utterly blameless she was in the situation. Then, she began to smear her granddaughter to me. First time she’d ever done that. Gd is an adult now, having just finished med school.
 

Gd hung the phone up on mom and they haven’t spoken since, to my knowledge. That day, I was gently giving my opinion of where things went wrong. She got angry, and man, she stood up out of her chair over me and raged at me. That experience reminded me once and for all to never, ever come out of grey rock, or to be very, very careful. 
 

Mom has told my cousins about the whole thing and also about how she got angry at me, and I can be quite sure she didn’t paint me in a good light. So, they may have thought, poor aunt so and so.  Horrible granddaughter. Horrible daughter.
 

She obviously has smeared gd to them and possibly even smeared me. Well, she told me herself that she told cousins about gd, and that they (cousins) were “disgusted” by gd’s behavior. I do know for sure that she told them the part about me, but she’s not going to tell me that she smeared me to them, of course. 
 

Mom has since recounted the story of The Argument a few times. Always blameless. And last week, she asked if she had told me that she had talked to gd. She hadn’t. 
 

She told me how she had called her one day recently, and gd answered. She surface- level chit chatted, then asked gd if she wanted to come over to see her new cat. Gd declined. Conversation ended. 
 

So mom begins to recount The Argument again. Except THIS time, there is a hint of something that wasn’t there before. When she got to the part where things went wrong, I said (trying to be careful) that when she said THIS thing to gd, maybe that upset her. Even if you (mom) didn’t mean for it to, it did. And I added that I wonder what would have happened if you had said to gd (during the recent phone call) “Hey, can we talk about what happened? I want to know how I may have upset you. I want to work this out.” Instead of, “Hey. Wanna come see my cat?” To which mom  had no response. I can see she will have no part of Any Of This Is My Fault. (Just pretend it didn’t happen and expect others to carry on as usual, which is also the expectation she had of me when she raged at me. You just screamed in my face and then…poof….it’s all good?)

Anyway, when I mentioned the part where things went wrong, she said, “Well, she was getting on my nerves…and so I told her blah, blah, blah.”

There. There it was. Mom was irritated! The thing she said may have been said in a bad tone, which may have been what did it. Finally, a little hint. That was the first time that had been included in any retelling of what happened. 

There’s no point to this post except to point out the inner workings of narcissism and how they do things. The old me would have bought all that mom was selling. Hook, line, sinker. I would have been thinking badly of my niece and felt sorry for mom, just like my cousins. It IS so much clearer when it isn’t happening to me, and I can just be an “onlooker”. 
 

This has it all. Smearing, gaslighting, narcissistic rage, self-preservation. Unwillingness to apologize for her part. All of it. 
 

I just can’t imagine that my mom could be completely blameless in this. You don’t hang up on your grandmother and refuse to have contact for just absolutely no reason. Then mom tries to blame this all on a mental health disorder for which there has never been a diagnosis. Their relationship was fine until that day. There was never a mention of any mental health issue. Until now. 
 

If I am right, I feel bad because it means others are being convinced to think poorly of my niece who doesn’t deserve that. 
 

So, yeah. This how they operate. So sly and insidious. It’s invisible, even. Then if you try to point out the seemingly invisible abuse, you get labeled the crazy one and how horrible are you to treat your mom this way.

(Which makes me think….if boyfriends and husbands are abusive, we are encouraged to get away. If it’s our mom, in our society we are made to feel like we are a bad person for staying away).

It’s a mess. 

 

[Kassia]

It's all so complicated and hard - especially when it's your own mom.  I'm sorry you and so many others (including my family) have to deal with this and don't get the loving moms/grandmothers we all deserve.

[scholastica]

You would not be a bad person for staying away from someone who rages in your face. That is verbal abuse. No-one has to be in a relationship where that is a normal occurrence. Only you can decide on the amount of contact that you can handle without her damaging you emotionally and mentally. 

[Sneezyone]

This is precisely how it works. Cheers to the cycle-breakers.

[Kassia]

9 minutes ago, scholastica said:

You would not be a bad person for staying away from someone who rages in your face. That is verbal abuse. No-one has to be in a relationship where that is a normal occurrence. Only you can decide on the amount of contact that you can handle without her damaging you emotionally and mentally. 

No, but you have to deal with many people judging you for cutting your mom out of your life.  So many people just don't get how abusive moms can really be.  It's impossible to explain to someone who doesn't understand.  

[prairiewindmomma]

7 minutes ago, Kassia said:

No, but you have to deal with many people judging you for cutting your mom out of your life.  So many people just don't get how abusive moms can really be.  It's impossible to explain to someone who doesn't understand.  

Yes to this. We have been slandered up and down and wedges and lines in the sand were drawn by the abusive person.

You decide that the peace from being away from the abuse and maintaining your own sanity and well being is worth it.

It is.

Edited March 8, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[Ann.without.an.e]

We had to cut IL's and it was hard and some people definitely judge. There was a plethora of problems but one of the issues was similar to what you describe. The absolute inability to see any wrong in themselves and they were always right, they would do really mean things and never apologize. We just always had to push it back and move on like nothing ever happened. Talking about it would've led to even more problems. I'm sorry that you're facing that. 

[Arcadia]

This part may be a lie. My MIL has been caught in similar lies. For her, the primary issue is low self esteem and jealousy when others lives look better. She smears everyone so everyone knows that she would talk bad about them to someone else. My FIL treats it as normal gossiping behavior of women and doesn’t engage.

”She obviously has smeared gd to them and possibly even smeared me. Well, she told me herself that she told cousins about gd, and that they (cousins) were “disgusted” by gd’s behavior.”

[Scarlett]

22 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

This part may be a lie. My MIL has been caught in similar lies. For her, the primary issue is low self esteem and jealousy when others lives look better. She smears everyone so everyone knows that she would talk bad about them to someone else. My FIL treats it as normal gossiping behavior of women and doesn’t engage.

”She obviously has smeared gd to them and possibly even smeared me. Well, she told me herself that she told cousins about gd, and that they (cousins) were “disgusted” by gd’s behavior.”

This reminds me of my former MIL and how ‘everyone’ and ‘they’ agree with her.  About everything.  

[Indigo Blue]

19 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

This part may be a lie. My MIL has been caught in similar lies. For her, the primary issue is low self esteem and jealousy when others lives look better. She smears everyone so everyone knows that she would talk bad about them to someone else. My FIL treats it as normal gossiping behavior of women and doesn’t engage.

”She obviously has smeared gd to them and possibly even smeared me. Well, she told me herself that she told cousins about gd, and that they (cousins) were “disgusted” by gd’s behavior.”

You mean the part where she says cousins were disgusted by gd ghosting her grandma? That could be a lie? If so, oh, yes. Anything at all could be a lie. I now know this to be 100 percent truth. It took me until getting into my 50’s to figure that out. I know my brother, who lives there, is really peeved at my niece. I really believe my mom said something to upset her that she will not own up to. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Indigo Blue said:

If it’s our mom, in our society we are made to feel like we are a bad person for staying away.

People who know you well will know that you're not a bad person, and the opinions of people who don't know you well aren't worth worrying about. You do not have to put up with manipulation and abuse from anyone, not even a parent.

The peace of mind I won by cutting my mother out of my life was more than worth the price of having a few people think I'm a bad daughter. The fact that they may have a misguided opinion of me because they don't see or understand the dynamics of narcissism has no impact at all on my daily life, vs the pervasive effect that interacting with an abusive narcissist had on my mental health.

 

 

[Indigo Blue]

Just now, Corraleno said:

People who know you well will know that you're not a bad person, and the opinions of people who don't know you well aren't worth worrying about. You do not have to put up with manipulation and abuse from anyone, not even a parent.

The peace of mind I won by cutting my mother out of my life was more than worth the price of having a few people think I'm a bad daughter. The fact that they may have a misguided opinion of me because they don't see or understand the dynamics of narcissism has no impact at all on my daily life, vs the pervasive effect that interacting with an abusive narcissist had on my mental health.

 

 

Truth. 

[Katy]

My mom isn’t NPD. Sometimes she’s textbook BPD, other times she’s fine. And I did get judged when I cut her out for about 3 years. But her behavior towards me permanently improved. And everyone who openly judged me has since apologized when she turned on them or someone in their family. So don’t worry about it. Unless you’re the target it’s hard to comprehend. 

[YaelAldrich]

BTDT got the video AND T-shirt from my MIL. She can NEVER be wrong and if you catch her in a lie or anything that doesn't make her seem wonderful you CANNOT bring it up.

SO tiresome. 

[saraha]

@Indigo Blueyour mother and mine sound like they have very similar mo’s. I’m sorry.

The last time I talked to her, last week, she asked if dh could see yet, and I said there is no change. He is just waiting between doctor appointments and hoping for improvement. She then got agitated and said well I’m not asking about him anymore then since there is no change. If something changes let me know.

Yup, that is a nope

[Indigo Blue]

35 minutes ago, saraha said:

@Indigo Blueyour mother and mine sound like they have very similar mo’s. I’m sorry.

The last time I talked to her, last week, she asked if dh could see yet, and I said there is no change. He is just waiting between doctor appointments and hoping for improvement. She then got agitated and said well I’m not asking about him anymore then since there is no change. If something changes let me know.

Yup, that is a nope

I hope your Dh eyes improve! I must have missed where you posted about that.
 

What a weird reaction from your mom. 

[saraha]

I definitely think with my mom there is a huge dose of low self esteem. She has all these contests, competitions and wars with people who do t even know it. She is never wrong and the smartest person in the room. Now that I am, slowly, disentangling myself, I can see that. After the thanksgiving, I realized I needed to change because she never will and have been working on that. As a result I have, not quite pity, but at least some kind of recognition that she is not a healthy person at all and is probably very lonely because she is so mean.

[saraha]

4 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

I hope your Dh eyes improve! I must have missed where you posted about that.
 

What a weird reaction from your mom. 

Yeah. Ever since my dad died when I was 13, she got a lot of mileage about having a sick husband and being a widow (even though she married less than a year after he died). To this day still even though she has married and divorced twice since he died. And I honestly think that she feels me having issues with my dh’s health feels like it is taking something away from her. She will ask about him and then be so dismissive because at least it’s not like she had it where he might die. 🙄 I learned about information diets here and immediately started using it a couple of years ago. She gets little to no real information about anything. And what little she does get she wields like a weapon

[Indigo Blue]

I was telling Dh last night that if my niece only knew the things my mom is saying about her, she would know that she really will be better off with no contact with my mom.

Also, think about it. How do you react if someone you care about suddenly is very angry with you and won’t take your calls?Would you  immediately default to “let me trash this person to any family member who will listen.” Or do you think that thing you said may have crossed a line and try to call to talk about it. She won’t take the call? Send a text. 

And then when I finally got them on the phone, I would not ignore the whole thing by asking them to come see my cat. I think she knew she had a part in it, and the cat was to deflect and pretend nothing was wrong. No accountability. She just wanted her to come visit and pretend nothing happened. She has done this with me many times. 
 

 

[Indigo Blue]

@sarahamy mom also has very low self esteem. She has a very charming personality, though.
 

You’re right she won’t change, and you have to work on yourself. I do have some compassion for my mom. She didn’t have a normal childhood, herself. It’s taken my whole life to see all this. 

[Indigo Blue]

1 hour ago, YaelAldrich said:

BTDT got the video AND T-shirt from my MIL. She can NEVER be wrong and if you catch her in a lie or anything that doesn't make her seem wonderful you CANNOT bring it up.

SO tiresome. 

Yes. And you can imagine that a narcissistic person whose granddaughter went no contact is going to scramble like mad to make sure she looks like the victim. How awful would it be for people to think what is wrong with her that her  own grandchild won’t talk to her?

I hope she isn’t telling my cousins that she thinks gd has mental issues just to smear her. That makes me angry. 
 

Yep. You can’t bring it up. It just makes it worse. 

[Indigo Blue]

“Remember I spoke earlier of how there are three layers of abuse to this NPD? The first layer is our mother’s abuse. The second layer is her denial of it and invalidation of our experiences. The third layer is society’s denial of it, and invalidation of our experiences. And if you go No Contact, it’s very possible that others–neighbours, friends, extended family–will judge you harshly for it. This can be difficult to deal with.”

— You're Not Crazy - It's Your Mother: 2nd Edition: Freedom for Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers by Danu Morrigan
https://a.co/1IddvLo
 

Had to share this because I literally just read this part of this book. 

[Not_a_Number]

I've gone through phases with my mom. 

I didn't talk to her for 6 months about 6 or 7 years ago. It was a really, really, really good thing for me. It let me me heal from the poisonous nature of our dynamics. 

After that, we'd talk, but always on my terms -- texting, never calling. And I was always angry. Always, always, always angry. And she'd be hurt and defensive and angry. There's be fewer interactions, but they'd be tense and bad. 

And recently, with my issues with DH... I've been reevaluating how I interact with difficult people who can't hear me. I've realized I do want to have her in my life, but that I need to take her as she is, not as I want her to be. And that I can have compassion for what's inside her (lots and lots of damage and trauma and fragile ego and insecurity) while also protecting myself from the damage she can cause. That, in fact, the best thing for BOTH OF US, including her, is to not let her hurt me. 

I told her not to text me at all because I was having personal issues. I'm texting her only when I feel like it. And... our interactions have started feeling a LOT better. Kinder. Less defensive. I feel less angry. 

But I definitely needed to cut off contact initially to make any of this possible. Otherwise, we'd have just chugged along repeating dysfunctional dynamics forever. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Indigo Blue]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

And... our interactions have started feeling a LOT better.

Thanks. I’m glad things are much better for you now. 

[YaelAldrich]

MY MIL was raised by a narcissist mom who pitted her children against each other. And they hate each other until this day (they are in their 80s). I never met my DH's uncle until about  five years ago at a relative's birthday party (we've been married for 26 years and together for over 33)!  Stole, lied, and connived back and forth when the parents were alive and after they died. 

I pray for many things but I pray extra hard that my children and my nephew break the narcissism cycle. Now that they are all teens and young adults I think we are in the clear as far as that.

My daughter was the one I worried most about as she is the only girl and granddaughter and I thought I saw aspects of it in her early childhood but thank God (THANK GOD!) she has a healthy sense of herself but it doesn't tip into narcissism. 

[Shoeless]

6 hours ago, saraha said:

Yeah. Ever since my dad died when I was 13, she got a lot of mileage about having a sick husband and being a widow (even though she married less than a year after he died). To this day still even though she has married and divorced twice since he died. And I honestly think that she feels me having issues with my dh’s health feels like it is taking something away from her. She will ask about him and then be so dismissive because at least it’s not like she had it where he might die. 🙄 I learned about information diets here and immediately started using it a couple of years ago. She gets little to no real information about anything. And what little she does get she wields like a weapon

 

This resonated with me. Being sicks means attention in my family. It makes you "special", so only certain people are allowed to be sick or have problems. 

Like, they made up an entire song about how people in their branch of the family are always sick with something, and tee hee, it's a family trait to always be sick/injured/bruised/recovering from surgery/seeing a specialist. Tee hee, it's SO funny! They're just SO unique and special! 

But the one or two times I've needed to see a specialist because I had a health issue? The response was some combination of dismissive, mocking, and jealousy, like I was trying to steal someone's thunder. How poor does your self-esteem have to be to feel envy over potential cancer or cardiac disease? 

Bizarre. 

[Scarlett]

10 hours ago, Shoeless said:

 

This resonated with me. Being sicks means attention in my family. It makes you "special", so only certain people are allowed to be sick or have problems. 

Like, they made up an entire song about how people in their branch of the family are always sick with something, and tee hee, it's a family trait to always be sick/injured/bruised/recovering from surgery/seeing a specialist. Tee hee, it's SO funny! They're just SO unique and special! 

But the one or two times I've needed to see a specialist because I had a health issue? The response was some combination of dismissive, mocking, and jealousy, like I was trying to steal someone's thunder. How poor does your self-esteem have to be to feel envy over potential cancer or cardiac disease? 

Bizarre. 

That is crazy.

 

I remember my former MIL viewed any kind of sickness as a person being inferior.  It was icky. As she started to age she would always inform us the doctor said she was the healthiest patient he had.  And when she got cancer she ‘recovered faster than any patient ever’,   And when they checked for mental faculties she had ‘the sharpest mind of all his patients even the 20 year olds’. 

Once you see it you just can’t unsee it.  It helped me to have compassion for her…..she must have been very insecure and scared about some things.  But I still had to limit my interactions with her.

 

[Indigo Blue]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

And when they checked for mental faculties she had ‘the sharpest mind of all his patients even the 20 year olds’. 

My mom says things along these lines at the doctor all the time. “The doctor said I was the best patient he’s ever had.”

”They said I was the nicest person they’d ever talked to.”

What is concerning is that she’s so preoccupied with getting attention, she forgets that she’s there for a reason. The focus is totally off why she’s there. She takes huge maps of the huge outdoor space where she works to show the doctor. I’ve been with her when she does this. 
 

She also loves to impress medical people with the fact that her gd (the one who is no contact) is going to be a doctor. 

[Indigo Blue]

@Scarlett I hope you’re feeling better today.

[Indigo Blue]

Deleted 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Indigo Blue