Jinger Vuolo - Free Indeed

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

1 hour ago, Danae said:

Assuming she’s read the book written in her name.

I mean, she’s done a lot of interviews discussing it and answering questions.

Books are very commonly ghost written.

[Katy]

6 hours ago, Quill said:

Does anyone know if the IBLP Basic and Advanced seminars are still available for purchase? I’m just curious. 

Yes, but I heard they’re being revamped so are currently on sale. 
 

https://store.iblp.org/wisdom-booklets

[Katy]

Oh and don’t buy them. They’re posted online in several places if you want to look something up vs supporting that cult

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

Oh and don’t buy them. They’re posted online in several places if you want to look something up vs supporting that cult

I still have the Character Sketches books but I don’t have the Christian Girlhood Charms book or whatever it was called. Wonder if I can find that online. 

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, Quill said:

I still have the Character Sketches books but I don’t have the Christian Girlhood Charms book or whatever it was called. Wonder if I can find that online. 

Probably. I’d look for you but I’m a bit busy. Start with Reddit & Recovering Grace

[Grace Hopper]

5 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

 

Try to find that Macarthur comms director, will you?  You could be a team.

Alas, that is not the partnership I’m looking for. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

38 minutes ago, Quill said:

I still have the Character Sketches books but I don’t have the Christian Girlhood Charms book or whatever it was called. Wonder if I can find that online. 

There’s a bunch on EBay.  I remember reading my parents’ collection as a kid.  Now that I look back, what they took away was so random. Pants were fine, but music with a beat was demonic.  I remember being in a Christian kids choir where they were going to do a rap and my mom was horrified.  She didn’t even like Gothard or IBLP at that point—her best friend and their family were treated poorly by the organization, probably because they were poor, while a similar family we knew who were well to do were treated well.  But what they retained was just an odd jumble of stuff.

I am just musing.  His influence just strikes me as so strange.  By the time I was about fifteen my mom was a veteran homeschooler who everyone looked to for advice, and she’d tell everyone who would listen how awful she thought Gothard was.  But the people who introduced my family to homeschooling were big Gothard followers in the mid 80s and they got a little suckered in for a time.

I do wonder how many other people out there put their toes in the Gothard water and decided he was crazy, and why so many more were pulled right in. Just musings.  I took a lot of Sudafed tonight lol.

[Danae]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Ok…I don’t understand why you said that then. Is it a common way of thinking about ghost-written books? I didn’t think anyone wondered that about Prince Harry’s book, Spare. Some people are happy he wrote it (ghost-wrote it), some are not, but AFAIK, people all seem confident he knows what it says. 

Because those quotes don't read to me like someone coming to a revelation, they read like someone regurgitating McA's talking points.  And the ghostwriter in question is his communications guy.  

I am glad for her that she won't be pressured into more kids than she can handle, though.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

She didn’t even like Gothard or IBLP at that point—her best friend and their family were treated poorly by the organization, probably because they were poor, while a similar family we knew who were well to do were treated well.  But what they retained was just an odd jumble of stuff.

This is very similar to my upbringing. My parents dipped their toe in for a while and the private Christian school I attended until halfway through sixth grade was big on Gothard. My parents never technically homeschooled, except my youngest sibling was kept home from Kindergarten because he was both super smart and socially/emotionally immature. So he read like five hundred books when he was five and entered school directly into first grade. 
 

My parents also had an odd mix of what I called strictness and laissez-faire. So for example, I was never allowed to go to a music concert - never, even as a teen, even a “Christian Rock” concert - but I went away to camp (albeit Christian camp) every summer starting very young (probably 6 or 7). I think they thought it was okay because my sisters were there, too, and it was Christian. But all of us sometimes did things we had no business doing while there, lol. And I specifically remember several hours of time I was repeatedly unaccounted-for. (A favorite was skipping dinner and the service so I could play with the horses in the paddocks.) 

My parents also permitted a totally inappropriate relationship I had with a guy. I’m going to keep the details offline but he was a physical adult and I was not, but he had access to me and my sister that should never have been allowed. I think they thought he was okay because he was a Christian from the nutty school. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Actually, my mom always did have a huge blind spot for anyone “from a good Christian family.” 
 

My parents bought some of the materials and I think my dad went to at least one seminar. The pastor/principal of my school promoted his materials all the time. I remember always hearing those words “Basic Youth Conflicts” and thinking what is that all about but I was between 6 and 11 years old, so I didn’t have much knowledge of it. 

[Guest]

Oh, also, it’s funny now, but I remember when the pastor/principal would talk about all the evil in the world, one thing he would cite was, “these ‘unisex’ hair salons!” I remember I was always like, “What does this mean? Do people do that ‘sex’ thing at these salons?” Nope. It was just the horrible gender-blurring idea of men and women both getting a haircut in the same shop, lol! 

[kbutton]

42 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I do wonder how many other people out there put their toes in the Gothard water and decided he was crazy, and why so many more were pulled right in. Just musings.  I took a lot of Sudafed tonight lol.

I heard more about some of his ideas that had trickled down than I heard about him. However, in high school, some families did attend a seminar, and I think one family was more heavily influenced (or maybe they came with his teachings under their belts and then tried to get others interested). Even then, that family seemed to be grounded in reality in most ways.

Then in college I knew someone whose family did some of the Gothard stuff. Also a very normal person. 

But normal people impulsively stormed the capitol along with the crazies, and normal people believe conspiracy theories without ever actually DOING anything about them, and normal people sometimes approach something crazy, think, "Huh?" for two seconds and go on about life. I feel like you just never know who is going to be sucked in, who isn't, and who is going to actually be able to take something reasonable away from all kinds of nutty things and never stop to question the nutty stuff.

People are weird and definitely inconsistent.

[Annie G]

51 minutes ago, Quill said:

 

 

My parents bought some of the materials and I think my dad went to at least one seminar. The pastor/principal of my school promoted his materials all the time. 

When we started homeschooling the local support group had multiple families who followed IBLP. I knew right away they weren’t for me, but I was interested in reading the material to find out for myself. I was told they couldn’t let me read or borrow any of the booklets. I went online to buy some myself and I couldn’t order any without being ‘approved’. It was a very long application, and no way was I doing that just to read what I knew was nonsense. This was probably 1995. Am I misremembering? Could anyone order the materials? Or am I thinking of a different cult? 

[Faith-manor]

I don't want to weigh in here anymore about the book or Jinger. But I do want to issue a warning about deep diving into Gothard materials. It is really just not suitable for some folks. There is a lot there that could be VERY triggering for some who have suffered spiritual abuse and especially so if sexually abused. Many years ago I posted some screen shots of the "counseling" materials for victims of s.a. Folks were asking; I complied. At the time, I had the entire set of the crazy IBLP training materials plus the even MORE insane newsletters. I got some seriously angry emails about not having trigger warnings, and questions as to whether or not it was even appropriate to post the information. From the standpoint of "internet search", there was nothing that would lead creeps to this forum. However, there were folks who wandered into the thread for the discussion, and then really had a hard time when they read those posts. This isn't for everyone, and I want to make that clear before anyone goes looking for his stuff.

The worst, the craziest, the most bizarre, and the most abusive stuff was not even in the ATI seminar materials. That was practically " normal" compared to his newsletters which members could subscribe to (for very large sums of money) in order to get his added revelations and become even better christians. IBLP, in an effort to keep itself afloat since 2014 when they ousted him for good, have been purging that whenever they can and instructing members to burn or shred the materials. My guess is the excuse is, "to keep them out of the devil's hands" which is code for "There is no way in hell Gen Z ie ever gonna fall for this crap, and we need to keep the gravy train rolling."

The newsletters were the source for, "If midwives remove, barbies, troll dolls, and cabbage patch dolls from the house, mothers in birth crisis will easily be able to deliver their babies", indirect quote because I don't have the exact verbiage memorized. So ya...demon possessed toys are the reason women can't have easy home births. 😠 And a bunch of dingdongs took medical advice like this and way more from their god/leader who had exactly ZERO medical knowledge of any kind. But, he claimed to be a prophet, and folks fell for it. Same old same old.

He was also an advocate of Pearls parenting, and is the source for how Michelle became acquainted with blanket training and was an advocate of it on a Christian mothering forum until they got the TLC gig, and TLC expunged her online presence. Back in the early 2000's, there was a boardie who found screen shots of her posts and posted them here. It was eye opening, and well, suffice it to say, the Duggars should have had their children taken away from them. Michelle beat babies as young as six months old with rulers to train them to be terrified to leave a blanket once they could crawl. Then she never had to worry about them until the oldest girls could become sistermoms and take care of them for her.

So please please be super careful if you go looking for this crap. It can be really distressing.

[Annie G]

@Faith-manor you’re right. I have no desire to read any of them now, but I did back when my girls’ friends were being raised that way.   If I had experienced spiritual abuse or sexual abuse that was ignored I’m sure reading the materials would be really distressing.

Take care, folks. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Annie G

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Annie G said:

When we started homeschooling the local support group had multiple families who followed IBLP. I knew right away they weren’t for me, but I was interested in reading the material to find out for myself. I was told they couldn’t let me read or borrow any of the booklets. I went online to buy some myself and I couldn’t order any without being ‘approved’. It was a very long application, and no way was I doing that just to read what I knew was nonsense. This was probably 1995. Am I misremembering? Could anyone order the materials? Or am I thinking of a different cult? 

You are correct. Gothard knew just how insane some of his stuff was. He didn't want it to fall into the hands of people who weren't committed. So it started out with folks having to sign up to take the Basic Seminar. I want to say that those were 2 or3 day events, and even in the mid-80's, about $800 tuition per couple if memory serves. Then they could sign up for the advanced seminar. The Basic was legalistic crap but potentially not all that much more legalistic than say IFB or a few others. Just enough weirdness to be different, but not alarmingly different. The Advanced Seminar was like $1200-1500 per couple. If that was completed, couples were eligible to join and buy the newsletters and the more egregious materials. They had ways of tracking it. If memory serves, people had to turn in workbooks at the end of the seminars to show that they were paying attention and answering questions. The application was bizarrely exhaustive and deeply personal. They kept all of that personal information, so they could use the information against you in the future. If anyone decried Gothard or something the organization was up to, they released information like, "This person cannot be trusted because they engaged in premarital sex or had an alcoholic parent" things like that. He believed in the sins of the father being visited down, in the form of demon possession, to the children for multiple generations so having all of that data on folks allowed him to control them. "Accuse me of molesting the intern? Oh ya, Well I am going to tell everyone that grandma spent time in mental hospital and that means you are insane and demon possessed according to god." Not a direct quote. Just giving you an idea of the tactics.

He ended up falling out of favor with some fundamentalist churches because lower income families could not afford to remain in IBLP which was just a huge amount of money annually, and buy wisdom booklets for their kids, and the newsletters, and then turn around and tithe at church. It was the thing that caused my parents church to eventually drop him and declare him a false prophet. Not what he preached. Not what he did, and he was a well known creepster even by then. It was the gravy train. Once it impacted offerings then suddenly, he was a bad dude. My parents never got why I considered their church and pastor to be so horrible. He got the whole church into it, and then when it came to the almighty dollar, the guy was suddenly wrong. Where is the head banging emoji when you need it?

Edited February 3, 2023 by Faith-manor
If ever something was demon possessed, it is absolute Kindle AutoCorrect!

[Spy Car]

I drove through North Hollywood today (where Jinger now lives). 

I decided not to drop in unannounced  

Bill

[Guest]

IIRC, for a while there, you couldn’t just buy Abeka homeschooling materials either; you had to go to a seminar first. I guess that ended once ordering materials online became the norm. 
 

I could be remembering that wrong, though. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

The thing that completely turned my mom off was that her best friend, who had poured money into the seminars and strove to live the exact way Gothard prescribed, was turned down from using the materials after that exhaustive and ridiculous application.  The reason given was that the husband had facial hair he refused to shave.  But another family we knew, who was a very well to do Quiverfull family, and the husband also had facial hair, were accepted with open arms and used the Wisdom Booklets(one of their daughters is now a PhD candidate in a hard science at a well respected university, so it clearly wasn’t the only curriculum they used). After that my mom was 100% convinced it was nothing but a money scam and had zero use for the organization after that.  

She still got wrapped up in the Gentle Spirit magazine by Cheryl Lindsey and some of Jonathan Lindvall’s writings, but that’s another story.  There was more than just Gothard preaching a lot of this stuff during the 1980s-early 2000s. It was really everywhere you turned in the homeschool community. I was always disappointed that my parents didn’t have the money(or really the interest) in going to any of the homeschool conventions that my friends went to, but looking back, it was probably for the better.

[Annie G]

11 minutes ago, Quill said:

IIRC, for a while there, you couldn’t just buy Abeka homeschooling materials either; you had to go to a seminar first. I guess that ended once ordering materials online became the norm. 
 

I could be remembering that wrong, though. 

Must have been before we started in 1992. We started mid year due to a school issue, and with short notice I ordered A Beka readers. 

[Annie G]

3 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

 

She still got wrapped up in the Gentle Spirit magazine by Cheryl Lindsey and some of Jonathan Lindvall’s writings, but that’s another story.  

Cheryl Lindsey! Blast from the past for sure. Was that the first real controversy among homeschoolers?

[TechWife]

7 hours ago, Quill said:

Also, she did not say this, but I would say the start of the above bad situation was other Gothard rules. Because of the courtship stricture, this couple is young. Because of the anti-college rule, there’s a lot of uncertainty surrounding career/earnings forecast. Because the “girl” is not allowed to work at all, she can’t contribute income. And *then*, on this foundation, they have babies immediately…

MacArthur isn’t pro-married women working. Single women have more flexibility or something. 
 

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Annie G said:

Must have been before we started in 1992. We started mid year due to a school issue, and with short notice I ordered A Beka readers. 

Ah. I suppose Im remembering that wrong then. I started in 2002. 

[MercyA]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

And I specifically remember several hours of time I was repeatedly unaccounted-for. (A favorite was skipping dinner and the service so I could play with the horses in the paddocks.) 

Thinking of you doing this brings me joy. 😉 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Thinking of you doing this brings me joy. 😉 

The horses were generally better company than a mess hall full of pre-teens anyway. 😄

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, Quill said:

IIRC, for a while there, you couldn’t just buy Abeka homeschooling materials either; you had to go to a seminar first. I guess that ended once ordering materials online became the norm. 
 

I could be remembering that wrong, though. 

No, because I bought some ABeka material withought going to any seminar

[Garga]

On 2/1/2023 at 5:23 PM, maize said:

Most people?

I feel like this is coming from a very different world experience than mine...eating out anywhere is and always has been a rare treat in my world. I kinda get what you are saying about money, but background matters too. These aren't people with upper-class fine dining backgrounds, money or no. I just feel like there are cultural assumptions being made here that aren't really applicable.

 

I spent my 21st birthday doing my regularly-scheduled volunteer gig in the homeless shelter. Working in a homeless shelter with people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol doesn’t make you want to head out afterwards and get drinks. My parents might have sent me a card and some money, but that was it. I was married at the time and maybe went out to dinner with my husband and friends that weekend to celebrate. I have no idea, it was long ago and not a big deal and I have no idea how I celebrated my 21st, other than the irony of being in the homeless shelter with alcoholics on that day.

I don’t really see it being that big of a Sign Of Something that Jinger’s parents took her to a local chain restaurant for her birthday. For people who don’t care for alcohol (like me—I think it’s the nastiest tasting stuff ever, even the expensive stuff), it sounded pretty normal to me. 

Was everyone else really having wild celebrations at bars or eating in fancy restaurants on their 21st? Or were just some people doing that and other people were just hanging out with a few friends at a local restaurant? 

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Garga

[Annie G]

I don’t even know why Jinger mentioned her 21st birthday. Unless you drink, it’s nothing special.  I’m old enough that 18 was the drinking age, and since my dad’s a functional alcoholic I never had a desire to celebrate anything w alcohol. 
It’s not like Jinger’s 21st brought her any additional freedom. 
We never did anything special when our kids turned 21.

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, Annie G said:

I don’t even know why Jinger mentioned her 21st birthday. Unless you drink, it’s nothing special.  I’m old enough that 18 was the drinking age, and since my dad’s a functional alcoholic I never had a desire to celebrate anything w alcohol. 
It’s not like Jinger’s 21st brought her any additional freedom. 
We never did anything special when our kids turned 21.

It used to be that in IBLP they preached that the old way of doing things "21 was the age of majority" was correct, and so families treated their kids like minors until that age. 21, especially for girls, became the default of adulthood. But it wasn't any kind of hard and fast rule, and marrying them off sooner than that was typical. My guess is someone on the film crew said, "Hey what you guys doing for her 21st?" And then they thought, "Maybe we have to come up with a plan in case TLC wants to film" and that is how it went. But who knows!

[TechWife]

3 hours ago, Garga said:

Was everyone else really having wild celebrations at bars or eating in fancy restaurants on their 21st? Or were just some people doing that and other people were just hanging out with a few friends at a local restaurant? 

 

I don’t remember my 21st at all. I probably ate at home with my parents and then went to bed at the regular time so I could get up and go to work the next day. Mom might have made my favorite childhood meal - that was a family tradition. I don’t drink, so it wasn’t a big deal. 

[maize]

My only memory of my 21st birthday is that dh (who at the time was not more than a friend) sent me an e-card that said "iguana wish you a happy birthday" with a picture of an iguana. Because I'd sent him an email mentioning the iguana I rescued from a swimming pool. I only figured out just now that that memory was from my 21st birthday by piecing together a timeline of where I would have been for that birthday. I was in the place with the iguanas 🦎😁

[Spy Car]

I can't talk about my 21st birthday on a forum with "mixed" company.

I can confirm that I had a marvelous--and highly memorable--time  

Bill

[Faith-manor]

April birthdays are not fun times for college students. Though I had graduated with my BA at 20, I was doing some grad school classes and remember spending my 21st studying for an exam while dh was writing computer code for work. I think he brought me a chocolate covered donut with my coffee.

[Annie G]

45 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

It used to be that in IBLP they preached that the old way of doing things "21 was the age of majority" was correct, and so families treated their kids like minors until that age. 21, especially for girls, became the default of adulthood. But it wasn't any kind of hard and fast rule, and marrying them off sooner than that was typical. My guess is someone on the film crew said, "Hey what you guys doing for her 21st?" And then they thought, "Maybe we have to come up with a plan in case TLC wants to film" and that is how it went. But who knows!

It seems they treated the girls the same even after turning 21.  In fact, until they were married they were treated the same…chores and responsibilities at home but no freedom to date or go to college or have a career.  And like you said, so many girls raised in IBLP marry before 21.

I figured Jinger has heard about Jeremy’s 21st, or maybe some of her LA friends having big 21st birthday celebrations and that’s what made her think of hers as ‘less than’.  In Duggerland, Red Robin was pretty high class. 

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Annie G said:

It seems they treated the girls the same even after turning 21.  In fact, until they were married they were treated the same…chores and responsibilities at home but no freedom to date or go to college or have a career.  And like you said, so many girls raised in IBLP marry before 21.

I figured Jinger has heard about Jeremy’s 21st, or maybe some of her LA friends having big 21st birthday celebrations and that’s what made her think of hers as ‘less than’.  In Duggerland, Red Robin was pretty high class. 

That's why I thought it might be something they dreamed up to do for TLC in case they wanted something to film. I have a feeling there were a lot of those moments. Quick think of something. We don't have anything to film today! And then later, TLC decided what to air and what not to. I also agree, by Duggar standards of tater tots with cream of something soup on a regular basis for dinner, Red Robin probably seemed like a big deal to JimBob.

[Spy Car]

18 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

April birthdays are not fun times for college students. Though I had graduated with my BA at 20, I was doing some grad school classes and remember spending my 21st studying for an exam while dh was writing computer code for work. I think he brought me a chocolate covered donut with my coffee.

Mine is in May.

Curiously, I also started my 21 celebrations with coffee. Of course they were "Irish Coffees" with a good shot of whisky, at the Buena Vista in San Francisco, where they make a dozen at at time (and that's just for us). LOL

 

 

What thread is this again?  

Bill

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

That's why I thought it might be something they dreamed up to do for TLC in case they wanted something to film. I have a feeling there were a lot of those moments. Quick think of something. We don't have anything to film today! And then later, TLC decided what to air and what not to. I also agree, by Duggar standards of tater tots with cream of something soup on a regular basis for dinner, Red Robin probably seemed like a big deal to JimBob.

I thought this with specific episodes of the earlier shows. There was a particular one in which the boys and girls switched their regular gender-stereotyped chores. Michelle was bleating that they don’t separate chores by gender and they are perfectly happy to have the boys do the “girls’” chores and vice versa. She framed it like the usual chore division was merely an accident of how it worked out. But I especially remember one of the boys being baffled with the laundry details when Michelle said to separate the girls’ “hose”. She had to explain that this was another name for the tights they wear on their legs. 
 

Anyway, all that to say, that stood out in my mind as something the show producers surely recommended as a topic.

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Mine is in May.

Curiously, I also started my 21 celebrations with coffee. Of course they were "Irish Coffees" with a good shot of whisky, at the Buena Vista in San Francisco, where they make a dozen at at time (and that's just for us). LOL

 

 

What thread is this again?  

Bill

😂😂😂😂😂

 

I have this vague memory of my 21st birthday morning coffee being extra nice. Could it be that my 25 year old husband spiked it???? Oh boy, I think I have a new topic of conversation for him! 😁

[Eos]

must not derail thread

Edited February 3, 2023 by Eos

[Guest]

So, I’ve finished reading the book and will talk about what I thought of it as @Katy requested. 
 

The main impression I had throughout the book was: it reminded me a lot of Tara Westover’s memoir, Educated. Not because their families were alike at all but because my biggest take-away in both books is that it is premature. With Westover, as with Jinger, I felt that there is a lot more growth that needs to happen and neither was really at a place to write (or ghost-write) their reckoning with upbringing. I’m sure in both cases (but Jinger’s especially) there was a lot of publicity pressure to strike while the iron’s hot; in five more years, maybe nobody will give a you-know-what about the girl from the giant family who was given the most unfortunate of names and was publicly revised for saying she wanted to live in a city. 
 

I do not think her “disentangling” has reached its final iteration and I will not be terribly surprised if ten+ years from now will find her in the “deconstruction” camp, too. I would never wish ill on her, but I think this is especially likely if her marriage crumbles or something goes wrong with her girls. I don’t know much about Jeremy, but in the book it’s pretty evident that the foundation of their marriage was pretty poor. Which is not to say that that can never be redeemed; I have witnessed it up close. The way it begins is not always the way it continues.  But she does seem genuinely sad that her beginning with him was so wrapped up in a phony veneer on her part. She believed it was her job to keep him interested and always agreeable so she began her marriage with him not actually knowing her realities at all. 
 

There are a lot of similarities in her upbringing and mine and I relate to a lot of the things she mentions. She talks about how a lot of Gothard’s rules were “superstitious”. I know exactly what she’s talking about because my mother is like this and it was very hard for me to break free from that myself. My mom was (and still is) very superstitious about what words she says. Over the years, this has included things like not telling my sisters I was miscarrying because it was “a negative confession” and being unwilling to specify that she had Parkinson’s Disease. (As if saying these things makes them happen and not saying them will keep them at bay.) This was something I had to break free from in my own thinking, as well as the fear that something bad I dreamed about was prophetic and would happen. My counselor had to drill it into my head that dreaming about something tragic does not make it happen. I was very afraid of that throughout my twenties and half of my thirties. 

 

To those who doubt she knows what is in the book, I would say it’s practically impossible for that to be the case. It is filled with personal stories of how things she was taught affected her. She concludes the book by talking about the things she’s doing differently with her own kids. 
 

In sum, it is not the best memoir I’ve ever read but it isn’t the worst; I mostly just think she is not ready to tell this story properly. I can easily project the possibility that she will cringe about things she said in this book in 10+ years, just as I cringe when I read the journals I wrote when I was thirty. I would have said I was doing exactly what she says: disentangling the truth from fiction while “keeping” Jesus safely in the picture. But I now realize that I simply had not gotten to that layer of the onion yet and I still had a lot of psychological need to be a Christian. I think Jinger is currently proud of herself for not going the Josh Harris route. I expect one day she will reflect on this point and recognize that herself. 
 

My secret fantasy is that she will go to college, get a degree and work outside the home in a professional job. Hey, a girl can dream…

[Guest]

BTW: 21st birthday. I am pretty certain my parents did not even give me a gift and they for sure did not take me anywhere at all. I was living on my own by then and I have a picture of me holding a Carvel ice cream cake with 21st written on it. So I guess that’s what I did for my 21st birthday: sat in my own apartment with my very own Carvel ice cream cake that I could eat and not share with my siblings! 

[Spy Car]

Is Jinger allowed to drink now? Because there are some cool spots in her new neighborhood.

They like to call North Hollywood "NoHo" now, as it has grown more fashionable over the decades.

Tonga Hut (since 1958)

 

 

Idle Hour (built like an oak whisky barrel)

 

The Federal (an old Bank)

 

 

 

Bill

[Guest]

She didn’t say much about alcohol but it sounds like she *may* occasionally have a drink. I do remember though that I didn’t drink alcohol hardly ever while I was in the early family years because of pregnancy/nursing/infants/little kids. No point putting myself out of maximum game on purpose. 

[Spy Car]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

She didn’t say much about alcohol but it sounds like she *may* occasionally have a drink. I do remember though that I didn’t drink alcohol hardly ever while I was in the early family years because of pregnancy/nursing/infants/little kids. No point putting myself out of maximum game on purpose. 

I also saw a huge new Scientology center when I drove through her neighborhood yesterday.

When did they build that?

It is like a grew up in Los Angeles, but the city changes so quickly that I can barely keep up.

 

 

Perhaps for Free Jinger: Volume IV?

Bill

[katilac]

10 hours ago, Garga said:

I don’t really see it being that big of a Sign Of Something that Jinger’s parents took her to a local chain restaurant for her birthday. F 

 

Nobody said is was a big Sign of Something that they took her to a (national, not local) chain restaurant for her birthday. 

We said it was funny that she seemed to be casting shade about it. 

And it is. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, katilac said:

Nobody said is was a big Sign of Something that they took her to a (national, not local) chain restaurant for her birthday. 

We said it was funny that she seemed to be casting shade about it. 

And it is. 

Yes. It’s this. It’s the dry manner by which it’s conveyed that she thought it was pretty basic. 

[Katy]

14 hours ago, Quill said:

She didn’t say much about alcohol but it sounds like she *may* occasionally have a drink. I do remember though that I didn’t drink alcohol hardly ever while I was in the early family years because of pregnancy/nursing/infants/little kids. No point putting myself out of maximum game on purpose. 

She’s talked about it publicly before and maybe even in interviews about the book. She doesn’t drink but is fine with those who occasionally do as long as it’s not to the point of drunkenness. 

My complete guess is that she doesn’t want to waste the calories, possibly coupled with the science that says all alcohol is a toxin. 

[TravelingChris]

15 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Is Jinger allowed to drink now? Because there are some cool spots in her new neighborhood.

They like to call North Hollywood "NoHo" now, as it has grown more fashionable over the decades.

Tonga Hut (since 1958)

 

 

Idle Hour (built like an oak whisky barrel)

 

The Federal (an old Bank)

 

 

 

Bill

I can't drink due to medications I take but I sure appreciate your photos of these cool places and cool drinks.

[TravelingChris]

15 hours ago, Spy Car said:

I also saw a huge new Scientology center when I drove through her neighborhood yesterday.

When did they build that?

It is like a grew up in Los Angeles, but the city changes so quickly that I can barely keep up.

 

 

Perhaps for Free Jinger: Volume IV?

Bill

Is that where they are holding Shelly?  

[LucyStoner]

On 2/2/2023 at 5:26 PM, Faith-manor said:

You are correct. Gothard knew just how insane some of his stuff was. He didn't want it to fall into the hands of people who weren't committed. So it started out with folks having to sign up to take the Basic Seminar. I want to say that those were 2 or3 day events, and even in the mid-80's, about $800 tuition per couple if memory serves.

I recall BLP being a 4 day thing.  I want to say Weds-Sat.  While I am the child of liberal Catholic hippies, through a weird, weird series of events, I was invited to attend BLP when I was 12.  My friend’s parents paid for it.  We were told how “lucky” we were to get to go to one that had Bill Gothard in the flesh.  Apparently by 1992, a lot of BLP seminars were pre-recorded videos.  I went for the entire thing.  That experience is why I was highly skeptical of the Duggars from the start.

My friend and her family got a bit more into it but my mom was like “you know this is bullshit, right? That’s not how God’s love works.”  Fortunately, my friend who I went with didn’t stay with it.  

Edited February 4, 2023 by LucyStoner

[Spy Car]

5 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Is that where they are holding Shelly?  

How long has that poor woman been locked up?

The rumor is that she's behind secure fencing (with sharp spikes facing the inside to keep people in, rather than out) at a "retreat" up in Lake Arrowhead/Running Springs.

I can't believe the authorities haven't done a raid, to check on her welfare.

For some time they had me confused with someone who was part of their elite "Sea Org," and I would regularly receive the most exquisitely produced materials in the mail. They spared no expense.

I finally called and let them know they had the wrong guy.

Bill