PSA: keep masking when flying!

[shawthorne44]

On 10/28/2022 at 10:41 PM, MissLemon said:

I don't know if it's well known. I still hear "But planes have excellent air handling systems!". That may be true, but it won't help if the guy behind or next to you sneezes and coughs on you for 3 hours. 

I also don't believe that they regularly used to their full capacity.  Just like the blankets that they used to loan out for long flights.  Theoretically those could have been washed between people.  Those air handling systems take a lot of energy running full speed.  Hasn't someone getting sick after taking a flight always happened?   Each person might not get sick after every flight.  But if I had an immune problem, I'd spend the day at an elementary school in January before I'd take a flight.   

 

[Miss Tick]

34 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

I also don't believe that they regularly used to their full capacity. 

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying in your post. The air handlers draw air off of the engine air inlets and run automatically. That is why passengers have individual control valves over their seats. If everyone shut the valves at their seats the air flow could presumably be lessened somewhat. However, that "engine air bleed" is what is used to pressurize the cabin (and sometimes the luggage hold), so nobody has the ability to adjust that.

[kokotg]

I think the jury's still out on whether post-covid issues will be worse than flu on a per case basis....but covid spreads so much more easily (and less seasonally) than flu and numbers are so much higher that, on a societal level, the burden is much higher even if the effects are exactly the same. I haven't had the flu since I was a kid; I would not be okay with suddenly expecting for it to pass through my family twice a year or so. And if that were to start happening and I could prevent it or make it happen less often by wearing a mask in certain settings, I definitely would. 

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, kokotg said:

I think the jury's still out on whether post-covid issues will be worse than flu on a per case basis....but covid spreads so much more easily (and less seasonally) than flu and numbers are so much higher that, on a societal level, the burden is much higher even if the effects are exactly the same. I haven't had the flu since I was a kid; I would not be okay with suddenly expecting for it to pass through my family twice a year or so. And if that were to start happening and I could prevent it or make it happen less often by wearing a mask in certain settings, I definitely would. 

I think that's important to keep in mind. 

I have a relative that likely developed Type I diabetes from the flu. Whether Covid does this at the same rate, IDK, but if Covid does it at the same rate but is more prevalent...yikes! And since it's mostly a childhood onset disease, the burden is on both the kid with the illness and on parents and caregivers.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

45 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I think that's important to keep in mind. 

I have a relative that likely developed Type I diabetes from the flu. Whether Covid does this at the same rate, IDK, but if Covid does it at the same rate but is more prevalent...yikes! And since it's mostly a childhood onset disease, the burden is on both the kid with the illness and on parents and caregivers.

 

Most post viral syndrome articles and research that I have seen are not showing it triggered by the flu, though that is a possible trigger. However, a common symptom of post viral syndrome is “flu like achiness” even if it had nothing to do with the actual flu to begin with. I have not found anything breaking down triggers for post viral syndrome by percentage though. So it could have a much higher percentage coming from flu than I think (despite most articles not even mentioning it as a trigger). 

[bookbard]

I think it's important to separate the ideas of population-level concerns and individual concerns. If the OP is under a lot of stress, I would not advise digging deep into research on possibilities post-covid. Focus on recovering. While there's plenty of research on post-covid issues, you're not personally going to encounter all 100 plus symptoms. 

On a population level, it is a huge concern, which is why those in power need to make the big decisions, from improving air quality to funding new generation vaccines and so forth. 

On an individual level, the main thing you can do is wear a mask around other people, especially indoors, and do your best to help other people. 

 

[kbutton]

38 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Most post viral syndrome articles and research that I have seen are not showing it triggered by the flu, though that is a possible trigger. However, a common symptom of post viral syndrome is “flu like achiness” even if it had nothing to do with the actual flu to begin with. I have not found anything breaking down triggers for post viral syndrome by percentage though. So it could have a much higher percentage coming from flu than I think (despite most articles not even mentioning it as a trigger). 

This relative is very knowledgeable and proactive--I've assumed that she came to this conclusion with her doctor, but IDK for sure. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

This relative is very knowledgeable and proactive--I've assumed that she came to this conclusion with her doctor, but IDK for sure. 

I don’t doubt it. It’s just that people keep bringing up post viral syndrome from flu as if it’s the main thing that we should be comparing with long Covid but all the medical articles I am seeing equate it instead with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/ Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia and or Chronic Epstein Barr virus. As someone who has had my entire life trajectory changed by this I don’t like what seems to be not quite accurate information. 

[kbutton]

59 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I don’t doubt it. It’s just that people keep bringing up post viral syndrome from flu as if it’s the main thing that we should be comparing with long Covid but all the medical articles I am seeing equate it instead with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/ Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia and or Chronic Epstein Barr virus. As someone who has had my entire life trajectory changed by this I don’t like what seems to be not quite accurate information. 

I was just picking something autoimmune out of a hat that has been tied to Covid to illustrate a point. Anything else can be subbed in and discussed. 🙂 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

I was just picking something autoimmune out of a hat that has been tied to Covid to illustrate a point. Anything else can be subbed in and discussed. 🙂 

I think that I am a bit sensitive because there’s been the old “What’s the big deal. Covid is just like the flu” argument. Then the follow up sounds like “what’s the big deal. Long Covid is just like a longer flu”. (Not saying this is your argument but this is some of what I hear “out there “. ). But my lived experience of “having the flu for 30 plus years “ is that people can’t quite see how debilitating that really is. How it’s more than just flu aches but not being able to think clearly and not being able to plan for outings or a job because you don’t have the energy to follow through. In fact it can be not having the energy to even manage a shower. Add in strokes and dementia and other post Covid issues and it’s a very big deal in deed. I am not passionate about this because I can’t stand for people to think differently than me. I am passionate because I don’t want others to go through what I have gone through. 

[Not_a_Number]

20 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I got a post viral  auto-immune syndrome over 30 years ago.  Obviously not Covid but the symptom list for Long Covid reads the same.  I was extremely thin then.  Which yes, is just one more individual anecdote but the post viral syndromes I have looked up, including Covid, do not list BMI as a trigger.  Perhaps I'm not looking at the right PubMed articles but I would think that if you could just blame it all on fat people, that it would show up. 

All sorts of outcomes were worse in COVID with higher BMI? But yes, let's just go with "Not_a_Number wants to randomly blame fat people." 🙄 Because I'm totally skinny. You can just TELL from the beautiful green and black avatar. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

22 hours ago, KSera said:

This is my very first hit:

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20221024/Heart-attack-death-rates-took-a-sharp-turn-and-increased-during-the-pandemic-study-shows.aspx

I looked at the referred study some more and I don't understand the numbers at all. I showed them to DH, and he also didn't understand the numbers at all. They were really illogical and didn't fit any kind of model you could come up with. 

I'd like to see a good study on Omicron effects on the heart. There was an ENORMOUS Omicron spike about a year ago in December and January. I'm sure it was bigger than what was measured by an order of magnitude, since there were already rapid tests available at that point (and lots of people were probably not testing at all.) So if there's a strong medium-term effect on the heart, there should also be a tremendous spike in heart-related deaths or other events in the few months following that. If anyone has evidence of that, I would very much like to see it. I haven't been paying attention, but I'm not uninterested, merely preoccupied. 

[Not_a_Number]

11 hours ago, kokotg said:

I think the jury's still out on whether post-covid issues will be worse than flu on a per case basis....but covid spreads so much more easily (and less seasonally) than flu and numbers are so much higher that, on a societal level, the burden is much higher even if the effects are exactly the same. I haven't had the flu since I was a kid; I would not be okay with suddenly expecting for it to pass through my family twice a year or so. And if that were to start happening and I could prevent it or make it happen less often by wearing a mask in certain settings, I definitely would. 

Absolutely. 

I wonder how often people are catching COVID on average at this point? And I wonder how much immunity people are building up? 

I would also hope people stay careful about not sending sick kids to things. That would be a major improvement. 

And I like the ready availability of rapid tests. We use them a lot. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I looked at the referred study some more and I don't understand the numbers at all. I showed them to DH, and he also didn't understand the numbers at all. They were really illogical and didn't fit any kind of model you could come up with. 

I'd like to see a good study on Omicron effects on the heart. There was an ENORMOUS Omicron spike about a year ago in December and January. I'm sure it was bigger than what was measured by an order of magnitude, since there were already rapid tests available at that point (and lots of people were probably not testing at all.) So if there's a strong medium-term effect on the heart, there should also be a tremendous spike in heart-related deaths or other events in the few months following that. If anyone has evidence of that, I would very much like to see it. I haven't been paying attention, but I'm not uninterested, merely preoccupied. 

Honestly, I don’t gather that seeing more studies is likely to make you believe that this evidence is there.  I’m seeing tons of cardiologists and other doctors and scientists doing studies all saying that this is happening including during omicron, including right now, currently. I don’t know what to tell you if you don’t believe that.  I’m noticed in the past, you in general having tended to take studies as being unreliable, and I don’t gather that scientific research is your background, so I’m not sure on what basis you are disregarding what the scientists who do this for a living are saying 🤷‍♀️. Not trying to be snarky, Just speaking honestly.

7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Absolutely. 

I wonder how often people are catching COVID on average at this point? And I wonder how much immunity people are building up? 

Very unfortunately, it does not seem to be that people are building immunity up much at all. Much seems to depend on how quickly it’s evolving at any given point. 
 

[Jean in Newcastle]

21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

All sorts of outcomes were worse in COVID with higher BMI? But yes, let's just go with "Not_a_Number wants to randomly blame fat people." 🙄 Because I'm totally skinny. You can just TELL from the beautiful green and black avatar. 

The articles and studies I am seeing in PubMed (which I can’t link because I have access because my dh is a HCW and has a subscription and it will be behind a paywall) don’t support a link between a higher BMI and Long Covid. They do, however, support a link between Long Covid and being a woman. I saw at least one link to that effect on the omicron thread. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

The articles and studies I am seeing in PubMed (which I can’t link because I have access because my dh is a HCW and has a subscription and it will be behind a paywall) don’t support a link between a higher BMI and Long Covid. They do, however, support a link between Long Covid and being a woman. I saw at least one link to that effect on the omicron thread. 

Here's one I found. No idea how good it is. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8469321/

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

Honestly, I don’t gather that seeing more studies is likely to make you believe that this evidence is there.  

You'd be wrong about that. 

 

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

 I’m noticed in the past, you in general having tended to take studies as being unreliable, and I don’t gather that scientific research is your background, so I’m not sure on what basis you are disregarding what the scientists who do this for a living are saying 🤷‍♀️. Not trying to be snarky, Just speaking honestly.

It's based on my background in statistics and probability. And my husband does a ton of medical stats for his job. In fact, it's part of his current job as professor. 

But if you feel I'm unreliable, you should feel free to ignore me 🤷‍♀️. I don't have a mission to convince everyone I talk to. Only to share what I learn.

[KSera]

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But if you feel I'm unreliable, you should feel free to ignore me 

I’m not looking to you for reporting or anything, so reliability isn’t really part of it. You said above you haven’t really been keeping up with the research, but many of us have been following closely this entire time. 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, KSera said:

I’m not looking to you for reporting or anything, so reliability isn’t really part of it. You said above you haven’t really been keeping up with the research, but many of us have been following closely this entire time. 

So then hopefully you have some more reasonable studies 🤷‍♀️. Twitter threads aren't research.

[KSera]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

So then hopefully you have some more reasonable studies 🤷‍♀️. Twitter threads aren't research.

Lol, no, the research is LINKED to in many of the threads. Many scientists and researchers use Twitter to share their research and to talk about other people’s research.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

Lol, no, the research is LINKED to in many of the threads. Many scientists and researchers use Twitter to share their research and to talk about other people’s research.

Excellent. So then you can find me a study that shows the impact of Omicron on the heart. I'd actually be interested.

Or you can also decide that I'm fundamentally irrational and stop trying to convince me. 

But I don't like people trying to convince me without any concrete evidence. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I am not passionate about this because I can’t stand for people to think differently than me. I am passionate because I don’t want others to go through what I have gone through. 

I do understand that. I'm really sorry you've had that experience 😕 . 

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Excellent. So then you can find me a study that shows the impact of Omicron on the heart. I'd actually be interested.

Or you can also decide that I'm fundamentally irrational and stop trying to convince me. 

But I don't like people trying to convince me without any concrete evidence. 

Yeah, no. I’m actually not trying to convince you of anything; I don’t actually think you are convincible. I think if you’re interested in this you should look up the studies about it. You don’t like the recent massive study that has results so significant that it would be hard to find another way to explain them and it’s not my job to find one that may or may not suit you better. Just because you don’t think that study is concrete evidence doesn’t make it not concrete evidence. You would be at odds with the overwhelming majority of people who are actually working in this field. If you don’t believe it, you don’t believe it, and that’s not on me.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

Yeah, no. I’m actually not trying to convince you of anything; I don’t actually think you are convincible. I think if you’re interested in this you should look up the studies about it. You don’t like the recent massive study that has results so significant that it would be hard to find another way to explain them and it’s not my job to find one that may or may not suit you better. Just because you don’t think that study is concrete evidence doesn’t make it not concrete evidence. You would be at odds with the overwhelming majority of people who are actually working in this field. If you don’t believe it, you don’t believe it, and that’s not on me.

Great. So then why talk to me at all about it? I'm not sure I see the point of talking to someone who you think is fundamentally irrational. 

[KSera]

I think somehow this has turned argumentative and never really needed to. I personally feel it’s risky to accept getting multiple Covid infections a year. You do not and you don’t accept research regarding the risks (but also don’t appear to have looked for studies yourself). That’s totally, 100% your prerogative. Doesn’t make the research invalid though. 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think somehow this has turned argumentative and never really needed to. I personally feel it’s risky to accept getting multiple Covid infections a year. You do not and you don’t accept research regarding the risks (but also don’t appear to have looked for studies yourself). That’s totally, 100% your prerogative. Doesn’t make the research invalid though. 

No idea if it's risky. I hope, frankly, not to get multiple COVID infections a year, even though I wasn't able to keep avoiding COVID for mental health reasons. I feel like a parrot, but I'm actually unable to find good studies about Omicron and the heart. If anyone else is willing to share them with me, I'm all ears.

Personally, I was hoping people would take my experience as a way to prolong not getting COVID, even if, like me, they are no longer expecting to avoid it indefinitely. I think most of us prefer to get it as rarely as possible, within the constraints we're willing to impose on ourselves. 

[Ausmumof3]

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

No idea if it's risky. I hope, frankly, not to get multiple COVID infections a year, even though I wasn't able to keep avoiding COVID for mental health reasons. I feel like a parrot, but I'm actually unable to find good studies about Omicron and the heart. If anyone else is willing to share them with me, I'm all ears.

Personally, I was hoping people would take my experience as a way to prolong not getting COVID, even if, like me, they are no longer expecting to avoid it indefinitely. I think most of us prefer to get it as rarely as possible, within the constraints we're willing to impose on ourselves. 

I don’t have studies. I do have that our outbreak has been almost entirely omicron as we were shut before delta. And we are running at about 6000 excess deaths over and above the covid death toll, most likely due to heart attacks, strokes etc, but possibly due to delayed care during year one and two.

[Malory]

Since the vaccines do cause some heart and clotting issues in some people, wouldn't this explain some of the excess deaths we are seeing in countries like Australia and England? 

[Spryte]

Haven’t been following this entire thread closely, so this may have been linked already. Might have some useful info. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01689-3

 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I would prefer to avoid Covid as much as possible.  I do think we will see some significant problems over the next few decades due to long Covid.  My own grandmother suffered from post Polio syndrome all her life.

On the other hand, absolutely no one here masks.  Not even at medical conferences filled with ER doctors, critical care nurses and anesthesiologists. Two of my children struggled greatly with masking due to sensory issues and I am not going to make the mask. It absolutely affected my youngest child’s speech development.  Covid is not going away and there seems to be very little immunity built up. I right now know over 20 people who have Covid at this moment.  To my knowledge most of them have every booster available and I believe all have also had Covid before.  At least three of these people have been sick enough to be in the ED and I just offered to drive another one but he turned me down to try and get through at home.

We can’t stay home and isolate forever. That’s not good for anyone(and we haven’t, anyway). Are we supposed to never again eat indoors, go to a movie, expose my kids to things like concerts and theaters and museums and travel?   I really don’t know the answers. 

[kokotg]

23 minutes ago, Malory said:

Since the vaccines do cause some heart and clotting issues in some people, wouldn't this explain some of the excess deaths we are seeing in countries like Australia and England? 

If that were true, wouldn't you expect the excess deaths to correlate with when vaccines started instead of with waves of covid (including waves of covid pre-vaccine)? https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

[kokotg]

16 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

 

We can’t stay home and isolate forever. That’s not good for anyone(and we haven’t, anyway). Are we supposed to never again eat indoors, go to a movie, expose my kids to things like concerts and theaters and museums and travel?   I really don’t know the answers. 

But you can do all of those things except eating indoors in a good mask. I know you say you personally will not have your children mask and that you have your reasons, and that's fine, but that IS a way to do all those things and at least greatly reduce one's chance of getting covid. We've traveled a ton since covid started and gone to plenty of concerts and museums and haven't gotten covid. Some of that is luck, but a lot of it is that we wear good masks in crowded indoor spaces. (And those spaces would be a lot safer for kids like yours for whom masking is difficult for whatever reason if the people who could DID wear good masks, so I'm happy to). It's a false dichotomy to suggest that you either have to isolate forever or do nothing to reduce your chances of getting covid. We also do some things that carry risk that we can't mask for that we've decided are worth the risk given how long this has been going on and likely will continue to go on: my kids play wind instruments, we've eaten inside on occasion when numbers are lower, we do small family gatherings inside now...but when it's practical to mask, we mask, and I don't feel like my kids are missing out on much of anything (other than not growing up in the midst of a pandemic that they're likely to spend their adulthoods still dealing with the fallout from...but THAT I can't do anything about). 

Edited November 2, 2022 by kokotg

[EKS]

Has this been posted? https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/covid-19-surges-linked-to-spike-in-heart-attacks/

[Idalou]

39 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I would prefer to avoid Covid as much as possible.  I do think we will see some significant problems over the next few decades due to long Covid.  My own grandmother suffered from post Polio syndrome all her life.

On the other hand, absolutely no one here masks.  Not even at medical conferences filled with ER doctors, critical care nurses and anesthesiologists. Two of my children struggled greatly with masking due to sensory issues and I am not going to make the mask. It absolutely affected my youngest child’s speech development.  Covid is not going away and there seems to be very little immunity built up. I right now know over 20 people who have Covid at this moment.  To my knowledge most of them have every booster available and I believe all have also had Covid before.  At least three of these people have been sick enough to be in the ED and I just offered to drive another one but he turned me down to try and get through at home.

We can’t stay home and isolate forever. That’s not good for anyone(and we haven’t, anyway). Are we supposed to never again eat indoors, go to a movie, expose my kids to things like concerts and theaters and museums and travel?   I really don’t know the answers. 

In the Rochester area, my medical clinic is still masking and asking that patients mask. I do not have much confidence in medical professionals such as ER doctors or critical care nurses who do not. Are they wearing them in your hospital during work hours?

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

29 minutes ago, Idalou said:

In the Rochester area, my medical clinic is still masking and asking that patients mask. I do not have much confidence in medical professionals such as ER doctors or critical care nurses who do not. Are they wearing them in your hospital during work hours?

All the hospitals are still requiring masking at the hospital as well as all medical clinics and such, though I do see a lot of people pushing the masks under the nose at the nurses station and such. I don’t know anyone who continues to wear a mask outside of work.  All of the hospitals I’ve been in in both NY and PA are requiring masks from everyone still(and due to no beds anywhere I’ve been all over from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia to Westchester and Albany lately). 

The last conference I was at was a NY specific conference and I did not see anyone wearing a mask at any time except a few older people.  And we had strong representation of senior ER doctors and even the head of anesthesiology from large hospital systems including Rochester, Syracuse and NYC hospitals.  I expect that they are not wearing masks anywhere except where it’s absolutely required at work. What really surprised me, to be honest, is the amount of coughing and sick people who showed up and weren’t even bothering to mask.  I don’t mask outside of patient care or required medical facilities, but we stay home if sick whether it’s Covid or not.  
 

I think I am just curious if people plan to wear masks permanently now, because it’s obvious Covid isn’t going away ever and it evolves so quickly that people can get it multiple times a year. My oldest child has autism and the mask is a huge struggle; my youngest has SPD and speech issues and masking is both a sensory issue and makes him difficult to understand.  It’s not really a long term solution for either(my daughter doesn’t mind wearing a mask, but I don’t expect her to keep one on at school when she is the only person in the entire school wearing a mask).

Edited November 2, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Spryte]

13 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

 

I think I am just curious if people plan to wear masks permanently now, because it’s obvious Covid isn’t going away ever and it evolves so quickly that people can get it multiple times a year. My oldest child has autism and the mask is a huge struggle; my youngest has SPD and speech issues and masking is both a sensory issue and makes him difficult to understand.  It’s not really a long term solution for either(my daughter doesn’t mind wearing a mask, but I don’t expect her to keep one on at school when she is the only person in the entire school wearing a mask).

That would be a really interesting thread topic of its own.

We will continue masking selectively — right now, in our area, cases are going up so we are more careful. We mask indoors, in crowded spaces. We don’t mask at outdoor events, though I imagine if it’s very crowded, we might. We go to museums and exhibits and events, we just mask inside. The major changes we’ve made — we avoid the indoor pools when on vacation (probably overkill, but it has been fine for us), and we don’t eat inside. DH masks at conventions and conferences. We have health issues that make any illness risky, and we want to avoid catching things. We have not had Covid, that we know of, but we have not been hermits. Our kids have always homeschooled, so we don’t have any peer pressure at school (no one masks in the PS here), and everyone (who matters) in our life knows our circumstances.

On the planes and masks topic, though, man, it is life changing for us! I am so excited. We will probably forever mask on planes, at this point. DS has had anaphylaxis on planes from airborne allergens, and masking is a game changer. He can take flights again! So, we will all mask in solidarity, though we’d likely mask for Covid reasons anyway. Wish we had thought of this years ago.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Spryte

[catz]

I will say, we have been to lots and lots of shows at this point KN95 masked and have not gotten covid.  We have season tickets for traveling broadway in a theater with 2000+ seats, my kid has been in 5 regional productions, we see lots of shows in general.  Was at 2 last weekend.   We even went during peaks last Dec/January/Feb.  Maybe some luck involved but I'm pretty sold on it for those kind of situations and we are selectively masking at this point.   The protocols at the theaters they are using for casts seems to be working well too.  Haven't seen covid spread in any of the casts even as cases pop up.  INCLUDING, and I have been a huge sceptic on this one, when covid+ are allowed to return at 5 days masked.  

Masking selectively now doesn't mean masking forever.  Things are different than they were 6-8 months ago and they may be different again in another 6-8 months.  But in situations like shows or airplanes, I don't really mind at all.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

People have been masking in Asia for decades when they are sick, during allergy season and on high smog days. Including children. I cannot believe that we’re still having this “fear the mask “ rhetoric. Make your own choices but the mask is not going to take down society even if it’s adopted in non Asian countries as a way to help individual health. 

[kokotg]

41 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

 

I think I am just curious if people plan to wear masks permanently now, because it’s obvious Covid isn’t going away ever and it evolves so quickly that people can get it multiple times a year. My oldest child has autism and the mask is a huge struggle; my youngest has SPD and speech issues and masking is both a sensory issue and makes him difficult to understand.  It’s not really a long term solution for either(my daughter doesn’t mind wearing a mask, but I don’t expect her to keep one on at school when she is the only person in the entire school wearing a mask).

At the level I'm doing now? Masking in crowded indoor spaces? Sure. I don't have any particular issues that make masking difficult; it's not that big of a deal to me. There are professions where frequent masking was necessary/a good idea long before covid, so to me this question is kind of like asking, "but you won't keep doing landscaping PERMANENTLY, will you?" Sometimes circumstances dictate that we do things that aren't our favorite. If the alternative is a substantially increased risk of death or disability? Sure. People wear uncomfortable things for less important reasons and seem to adapt (like, I personally wouldn't wear heels all day, but plenty of people do for purely aesthetic reasons). I am still hopeful that over time the need for masking will be less....covid will become more mild, or surges less frequent, or long covid will be better understood and treatments more readily available...or even that there will be vaccines that better protect against transmission. But we'll see. It's frustrating; we all wanted to be done with this by now. But that's not where we're at. I imagine people in Europe back in the day were frustrated that the plague kept coming back around, too, but they still shut the theaters down when it did. At least I don't live back then! 

Edited November 2, 2022 by kokotg

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I think I am just curious if people plan to wear masks permanently now, because it’s obvious Covid isn’t going away ever and it evolves so quickly that people can get it multiple times a year. 

I will definitely keep masking on airplanes. 
I am currently masking in classes, and with Covid circulating like it does and NO reporting required, i.e. no tracking of cases on campus, I will continue to do so because I am exposed to 400 dorm-living students every single week - unless there is clear evidence that leads me to believe Covid cases are rare locally, or unless there is a better treatment than "go home and sleep it off". I would very much like not to mask while teaching, but I would also very much like not to get Covid at all, and that wish trumps the inconvenience.

As other posters, I balance risk and reward. I am accepting the small risk of getting together with friends unmasked for meal because the reward is high and I can trust them not to show up if actively sick or exposed. Crowded venues with strangers who have no incentive to stay home when sick offer high risk and low reward, so I will avoid or mask.

I have not seen any evidence that convinces me the danger of infection is over or that masking is unnecessary. OTOH, the only people I know who have not yet had Covid are the ones who are similarly cautious than we are; to me this is evidence that this strategy is sensible and effective.

YMMV. Obviously, with your kids' challenges, your calculation will look differently.
 

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Malory said:

Since the vaccines do cause some heart and clotting issues in some people, wouldn't this explain some of the excess deaths we are seeing in countries like Australia and England? 

No because deaths were actually lower than usual up until the start of this year when we really let Covid rip. I do see this get flagged a lot by anti vax peoples for some reason. 

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

All the hospitals are still requiring masking at the hospital as well as all medical clinics and such, though I do see a lot of people pushing the masks under the nose at the nurses station and such. I don’t know anyone who continues to wear a mask outside of work.  All of the hospitals I’ve been in in both NY and PA are requiring masks from everyone still(and due to no beds anywhere I’ve been all over from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia to Westchester and Albany lately). 

The last conference I was at was a NY specific conference and I did not see anyone wearing a mask at any time except a few older people.  And we had strong representation of senior ER doctors and even the head of anesthesiology from large hospital systems including Rochester, Syracuse and NYC hospitals.  I expect that they are not wearing masks anywhere except where it’s absolutely required at work. What really surprised me, to be honest, is the amount of coughing and sick people who showed up and weren’t even bothering to mask.  I don’t mask outside of patient care or required medical facilities, but we stay home if sick whether it’s Covid or not.  
 

I think I am just curious if people plan to wear masks permanently now, because it’s obvious Covid isn’t going away ever and it evolves so quickly that people can get it multiple times a year. My oldest child has autism and the mask is a huge struggle; my youngest has SPD and speech issues and masking is both a sensory issue and makes him difficult to understand.  It’s not really a long term solution for either(my daughter doesn’t mind wearing a mask, but I don’t expect her to keep one on at school when she is the only person in the entire school wearing a mask).

It’s an interesting question and one I ask myself a lot? What is the end goal? Am I willing to mask forever? Am I harming my kids immune system more by not exposing them to germs, than by exposing them to germs.
 

My hope is to hold out until government mandates indoor air quality protections. Earlier in the pandemic I was quite hopeful that that would happen, unfortunately now I’m more skeptical. It’s possible that once the pain of long covid is felt enough they’ll get there - it took a long time for people to accept hand washing and water filtration or correct sewage handling. 
 

Air travel plus closed cars plus air conditioning and changed building design mean we’re exposed to a lot more recycled indoor air than historically anyway. Even before covid, I had concerns about the number of illnesses kids were getting and were treated as pretty much normal. There are families in our friend group that I basically haven’t seen this year without one kid being sick, snotty, sore eyes etc. I’m pretty sure that’s not actually normal or healthy. We aren’t meant to live in air tight boxes. There are architect and engineer groups working toward improving air exchange in buildings as a whole.

Fixing indoor air won’t fully eliminate covid but it will hopefully reduce the circulating virus to the point where it’s less guaranteed to be an infection yearly or more often event. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I didn’t mean that I am against masking—I am definitely not.  I think I am personally struggling with how to manage long term with two kids who really just aren’t going to be able to mask as a long term solution, plus I am really annoyed with how many coughing/sick people are out in public, even at places like conferences where I feel people should know better. My oldest is sick, negative Covid tests but coughs and low grade fever. The school was annoyed I kept him home today as he’s Covid negative. I think that’s dumb and I had hoped we as a society had a better view of staying home when you’re sick now.  But I literally sat next to a NYC ED doctor the other day who was not masked and coughed the whole way through a presentation. I am happy that vaccines definitely cut down on death and serious illness, but post Covid problems are a concern.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[kbutton]

14 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I think that I am a bit sensitive because there’s been the old “What’s the big deal. Covid is just like the flu” argument. Then the follow up sounds like “what’s the big deal. Long Covid is just like a longer flu”. (Not saying this is your argument but this is some of what I hear “out there “. ). 

I understand. I was trying to amplify the point that someone else made that even if Covid = flu, because Covid is so ubiquitous and cases so numerous, it would still be a huge public health burden. I was using T1D because it's been linked to Covid, and because I have a family member who is thought to have gotten it from the flu. I also used it to illustrate some hidden costs--unreimbursed care from parents, the burden of educating people in the child's larger context to keep the child alive, etc. 

I personally am hearing more about POTS and other dysautonomias with long Covid. I have another family member that was recently diagnosed with something along those lines after having multiple bouts of Covid and after being Dx with an autoimmune disease as well.

 

1 hour ago, Idalou said:

In the Rochester area, my medical clinic is still masking and asking that patients mask. I do not have much confidence in medical professionals such as ER doctors or critical care nurses who do not. Are they wearing them in your hospital during work hours?

DH's co-workers do not wear them IRL or at conferences, etc. DH was interviewing there just before or as the vaccine was coming out, and they had a lunch time interview in a conference room. They frequently have restaurant work meetings (you can dial in). If DH goes in person, he gets his food boxed and wears his N95. It's wild. Some hospitals are loosening or jettisoning guidelines altogether (OH).

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I think I am just curious if people plan to wear masks permanently now, because it’s obvious Covid isn’t going away ever and it evolves so quickly that people can get it multiple times a year. 

Probably not, but there aren't that many things that are difficult to do in a mask for us. I do have concerns about seeing certain relatives where travel is required, and they will expect everyone to stay in the same location at the destination. I am not sure I can do that anymore, and that means it will be harder to see relatives who live distantly. One set of relatives is always sick, coming down with something, or recovering from something, and they don't really test, I don't think. 

We do have some relatives that are willing to do things like strategic masking leading up to the time we get together. An exposure has not been defined as an exposure if the person is wearing a mask for most of the pandemic, and it's worked pretty well in our household. But a negative test is not always a true record. I hope we can continue to have cooperation on pre-event masking. I might start to get comfortable with testing vs. masking for that scenario, but I hate asking people to spend money. Tests are expensive, and they are only reliable when you are symptomatic enough to make the test meaningful. To host a meal or something, a test might work as it's a snapshot in time, and a meal is not a long visit. To plan to host someone for a week--it's not helpful at all (and we often have "symptoms" due to allergies, etc., so it's not cost effective). My DH went from mild symptoms and negative test to aches, pains, fever, misery and frankly positive test in five hours last week. That could've been in the middle of his ER shift. The negative test was mid-day, and the positive test was in the evening when viruses start shedding at a higher rate. Knowing all the variables, testing is not the reassuring hug that I would like it to be.

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

As other posters, I balance risk and reward. I am accepting the small risk of getting together with friends unmasked for meal because the reward is high and I can trust them not to show up if actively sick or exposed. Crowded venues with strangers who have no incentive to stay home when sick offer high risk and low reward, so I will avoid or mask.

That is our planned next stage--strategic masking. The problem is that people around us are not considerate, or the times when we would be strategizing would be around extended stay types of visits with family that is unlikely to be cautious. I dread risking my son's lung function to visit people who refuse to act like his lung function is important or who think that they should be the arbiters of our risk budget. Well, he goes to school and has to eat lunch!!! Yep. I can't fix that. Not the same as renting a condo with a bunch of people who really are vectors and whose lived motto about much of life is, "What others don't know won't hurt them."

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I didn’t mean that I am against masking—I am definitely not.  I think I am personally struggling with how to manage long term with two kids who really just aren’t going to be able to mask as a long term solution, plus I am really annoyed with how many coughing/sick people are out in public, even at places like conferences where I feel people should know better. My oldest is sick, negative Covid tests but coughs and low grade fever. The school was annoyed I kept him home today as he’s Covid negative. I think that’s dumb and I had hoped we as a society had a better view of staying home when you’re sick now.  But I literally sat next to a NYC ED doctor the other day who was not masked and coughed the whole way through a presentation.

It is dumb, especially with the fever. I'm sorry!

Pre-covid, I struggled with the idea of staying home every time you have the smallest sniffle. With allergies, I do all the time. I also practice excellent hand hygiene. When I worked (before having allergy shots and before my body started getting geographic hives from things like cutting the grass), I often worked while sneezing all over--it was very clearly a spring thing every year. If I was actually sick, I stayed home if I had a fever and sometimes even for just feeling badly enough, but I couldn't stay home for a three-week long cold (we joke that while I rarely get a cold, it lasts 3 days or 3 weeks and no other timeframe).

Schools are tough--there used to be some wiggle room for a parent to just write a note, but now you basically have to pointlessly try to see a doctor or go to urgent care to be allowed to stay home and not have an unexcused absence. That's really dumb. 

It's hard to find cut and dry answers, and the people who have always been disingenuous about illness and cavalier about spreading it will continue to be so.

[wathe]

We will keep masking in all public indoor spaces for the foreseeable future.   We are very, very selective about where we unmask when inddors with people who don't live with us; right now that's while sharing a meal with grandparents, after having all testing, with windows cracked, and with the CR box running.

I can see us switching to a more liberal strategic approach when 1)COVID is rare in the community and 2)indoor air quality is excellent.  Right now, neither of those are true in most public indoor spaces.  So we mask.

Regarding HCW not masking outside of work:  It's the same here.  I agree that it makes not sense.  But, of course, HCW are people. Susceptible to all the same social pressures and cognitive biases and cognitive errors as everyone else.  Most of them have had COVID and had mild cases.  Most of them (in my cohort) are vax to the max.  They want back-to-normal social events and social lives just like everyone else.  So, they minimize.

[wathe]

I mask in public because I really don't want covid.  

But I also feel that I have an ethical obligation to mask in public indoor spaces.  The burden of this pandemic has been disproportionately borne by marginalized groups: the elderly, the medically fragile, those with disabilities, immune compromise, the incarcerated, those in congregate living settings, racialized people, the list goes on and on.  I am very aware of my privilege.  I feel that have an ethical obligation to interrupt chains of transmission as much i as reasonably can, because  I can't know where covid that I might unknowlingly transmit will land and how much grief it will cause.   So I mask.

[kokotg]

2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I didn’t mean that I am against masking—I am definitely not.  I think I am personally struggling with how to manage long term with two kids who really just aren’t going to be able to mask as a long term solution, plus I am really annoyed with how many coughing/sick people are out in public, even at places like conferences where I feel people should know better. My oldest is sick, negative Covid tests but coughs and low grade fever. The school was annoyed I kept him home today as he’s Covid negative. I think that’s dumb and I had hoped we as a society had a better view of staying home when you’re sick now.  But I literally sat next to a NYC ED doctor the other day who was not masked and coughed the whole way through a presentation. I am happy that vaccines definitely cut down on death and serious illness, but post Covid problems are a concern.

It's so incredibly frustrating that the takeaway from this whole thing for a lot of people seems to be that's it's totally fine to go wherever and cough all over everyone as long as you're at least pretty sure it's not covid. Like...that was NEVER okay! 

[Not_a_Number]

I would personally be pretty depressed if the long-term outcome of this is that people mask indoors all the time (not that it's looking like that anywhere I've been.) I like seeing people's faces and can't read facial expressions, nor hear what people are saying, anywhere near as well with a mask. And the kids like seeing their friends' faces, too. I think it's a natural human desire. 

We all decide for ourselves when we stop taking most precautions. For us, Omicron seeming milder, the existence of drugs and vaccines, and the mental health issues I already talked about above meant that I became ready to resume something like normal life. I'm unlikely to mask indoors except in situations I know are high risk (like planes!) unless something changes either in the world or in my understanding. 

[Not_a_Number]

16 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I don’t have studies. I do have that our outbreak has been almost entirely omicron as we were shut before delta. And we are running at about 6000 excess deaths over and above the covid death toll, most likely due to heart attacks, strokes etc, but possibly due to delayed care during year one and two.

The thing is that it's hard to tell the difference between the two. Isolation and delayed care have been TERRIBLE for people.

One way to look for the difference would be to look WHEN the deaths are happening. You'd expect most (not all, most) deaths actually caused by COVID effects to happen in the medium term after the spikes. The Cedars-Sinai data, weirdly enough, didn't look like that, which is what made the numbers look really bizarre.