Article about cheating - something that high schoolers and college students should know about

[EKS]

55 minutes ago, skimomma said:

This exact thing has made calculus so much more difficult for my child than it needed to be.  I think more time was spend trying to master the format of answers than learning the actual material.  I imagine this contributes to a lot of failure.

I would say that at least half the time I spent on my calculus classes that used this platform was on doing all the problems in the problem bank so that I could find the ones with this sort of craziness in them.

[Frances]

A recent article about problems with online proctoring of exams. Personally, I can’t imagine choosing a course that used these systems, as it would just add to the stress of exam taking.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/27/technology/college-students-cheating-software-honorlock.html

[skimomma]

51 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I do not consider having access to former exams that a professor has returned to students cheating, either.  I always expected if I had handed an exam back that those questions were out there.  In fact, I used to put copies of all of my old exams on reserve in the library, so that ALL students could access them, not just those who were in a fraternity or some other group.  If a students really wanted to go through and memorize 1000s of questions, hoping the same ones would appear, I hoped they must be learning something.  And, I could reasonably reword, rewrite questions for an exam each semester. 

The problem I have now is that as soon as I hand out an exam in the classroom for students to take, I must assume that it is available anywhere in the world, because of the ability for technology to quickly spread the information.  Technology, coupled with the increase of asynchronous testing (either because it is being done online within a time window or because more students have reasons not to take an in-person exam in the classroom simultaneously with other students), means that giving Test #1 and thinking it is reasonable secure until I return the test is no longer possible.  

 

Yes.  I totally get that and battled the same things in my classrooms.  They are two very different things.  I was only responding to the posters that stated that collecting materials from past classes and reviewing them was cheating in the "good old days."  I don't feel that is or was cheating.  

[Porridge]

https://thecampanile.org/2022/05/17/recent-cheating-incident-reveals-larger-scheme/

It starts before college . This was just published by the school paper of a local high performing public high school. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by WTM
Spelling

[teachermom2834]

5 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I had a colleague who had a student who should up for 0 classes, took 0 exams, and completed 0 homework assignments, but did complete the course evaluation.  Thinking that the student must have mistakenly registered for one class but attending another class, my colleague contacted the student to make sure the registration error was corrected.  The student responded that he had been busy all semester and knew he hadn't done any of the work but was hoping that the extra credit for filling out the course evaluation would be enough for him to at least pass the class!

This example is so extreme it is comical but I totally believe it. But you figure this student probably got some very serious extra credit along the way to make this even worth a try to him. 

Dh gets multiple requests every semester from students with an F requesting extra credit to bring them up to an A or B. A once in a while request you can think someone is just extremely bold or new to school. But to get many of these requests makes you think this has worked enough times to make it worth a try? 

I think that is what is happening with the cheating. It just works so often or the penalty is just to resubmit so it is worth a shot. I have a friend that is a professor at a university and she actually goes through all the channels and pursues the discipline for every plagiarism case without a first warning. Her students are just absolutely dumbfounded that she pursues the charges and reports them. She warns them on the first day of class but they just don’t believe it. When she actually follows through they are shocked. They fully expect to be warned and able to resubmit. They act like they don’t think she is even within her rights to report them even thought the academic integrity policy is published and posted everywhere. 
 

While I don’t absolve any college age student of personal responsibility I can’t help but think something has gone wrong to get here. 
 

My dh hasn’t filed an actual report on anyone in his 15 years. He doesn’t want to saddle any kid (or adult trying to return to school) with that to contend with. He tries to help them. But surely that hasn’t helped because it has only gotten worse. 

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, skimomma said:

 

But, I have seen the above called "cheating" a few times in this thread and have some thoughts.  First, it is and was true that IME greek (and other) organizations do maintain collections of past work, exams, textbooks, etc.....  I do not see this as cheating.  

Oh it was cheating at my university in the 1980s, because the professors used the same exact test every year. And they would hand them back so you could look at them, and then collect them again so that no one could bring them home. They would count them to make sure they had them all.  I was never sure how someone could sneak one out, but they did, and over time the fraternity students got huge sets of them for almost all classes.  Everyone knew that the frat boys got better grades because they had the test before test day. 

[lewelma]

5 hours ago, Farrar said:

The pandemic, coupled with social media and breakdowns in a number of societal institutions has led to a greater sense of disconnection. That includes students who don't see the point of much of anything, who don't feel engaged in a deeper level. And I don't think schools are doing a very good job of addressing this disaffection. And I also think that harsher penalties aren't a great solution because they reinforce that disconnection.

This is an interesting point. If the world is ending, who cares if it takes some cheating to get a degree to get a job.

[Sneezyone]

5 hours ago, skimomma said:

I have been following this thread with much interest as a have a child currently pursuing a STEM degree that is struggling to make the jump from home-based one-on-one education to large-lecture course management.  And because I spent 13 years as faculty at a STEM university teaching engineering courses.  I see both sides of the discussion and have absolutely zero idea how to fix it all.

But, I have seen the above called "cheating" a few times in this thread and have some thoughts.  First, it is and was true that IME greek (and other) organizations do maintain collections of past work, exams, textbooks, etc.....  I do not see this as cheating.  If an exam or any other work has been returned to students, I do not see reviewing this material as cheating.  In fact, the STEM university I graduated from often had these materials available at the department level to anyone who requested it.  Sure, one could copy homework solutions from these collections but homework was almost never graded for credit so what would be the point?  I know I found it helpful to look at different approaches, including *wrong* ones to strengthen my understanding of the material.  And any faculty recycling exam questions after returning those exams to past students has got to understand that it means some people will come to the exam having seen those questions before.  I mean, we encourage our high schoolers to take practice (past) SAT/ACT/AP exams.  How is this different?  

One of the classes I taught had a large individual project component.  I changed it slightly every year....just enough that any student that attempted to start with a past completed project to try to "cheat" actually would have to demonstrate a higher level of competence than starting from scratch.  I knew that people were sharing old files so I worked that into the approach.  Go ahead!  I could also have just created completely unique projects every year and achieve the same thing.  But if I just used the same project year after year.....well, that's on me....I would be begging people to cheat.

Towards the end of my teaching time, I too had a suspicion that cheating was on the rise.  Most of the assessment in the classes I taught were pretty cheat-proof.  I caught a few blatant examples but it would be hard to cheat without being caught unless someone was straight-up impersonating another student.  However, there were a few assignments in which cheating would be easy.  So, I tested the suspicion.  I placed an embedded indicator within cheatable exam questions to see if students were sharing files with each other either during the online exam or from/with earlier sections.  I expected a high level of cases over the approximately 500 students who took the exam.  I found exactly *one.*  And that one happened to copy from another student who got the solution very wrong.  I did not turn in the two students involved as my plan from the beginning was simply to see if cheating was happening.....and they got zeros anyway.  It would probably have been considered entrapment anyway.  I'm not sure what I would have done had I kicked up a large percentage and it would have likely opened a big old can of ethical worms which I should have thought about before doing it.  This anecdotal story means absolutely nothing other than my suspicion was incorrect.

I don’t know if cheating is overblown or increasing. I suspect it’s just alternate means of gaining unearned advantages (frats and sororities at USC in the 90s had HUGE libraries of graded exams that were not changed but recycled) but I do think the supposition that college students all know XYZ about how to obtain learning support is extremely flawed. We have college students represented on the boards who don’t even make their own DR appointments. This Ted talk outlines it well, as do the viewer comments that follow.

Https://youtube.be/j7w2Gv7ueOc 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:

I think that is what is happening with the cheating. It just works so often or the penalty is just to resubmit so it is worth a shot. I have a friend that is a professor at a university and she actually goes through all the channels and pursues the discipline for every plagiarism case without a first warning. Her students are just absolutely dumbfounded that she pursues the charges and reports them. She warns them on the first day of class but they just don’t believe it. When she actually follows through they are shocked. They fully expect to be warned and able to resubmit. They act like they don’t think she is even within her rights to report them even thought the academic integrity policy is published and posted everywhere. 

When confronting a student regarding academic dishonesty, I have lost count of the times that I have heard "but that's what I have done in my other classes; so, I thought it was OK."   This has always been an issue, but I think it may be getting worse in that adjunct and non-tenured professors have much less incentive to pursue academic dishonesty cases, and more and more courses are being taught by adjuncts and non-tenure track faculty.  

I did have one student a few years ago who begged me not to report his academic dishonesty (did not deny that he had his phone under his leg, looking at answers during the exam--which by the way I allow them to bring one page of notes with whatever they want written on it into the exam).  He said, "Oh, please don't report me because I had a professor file a report last semester, and as an international student, I may get kicked out of school and the country with a second report."????  Given that the first report did not cause him to change his behavior made me even more convinced I was doing the right thing by filing the report.

One of the most egregious cases I have had was a graduate student who turned in a paper that I realized was plagiarized.  I announced to the class that there seemed to be some problems with at least some papers that were submitted and gave another week to resubmit papers.  She resubmitted with a few more "tweaks"--She had taken a published paper on the topic, copied it, and found other references on the topic.  She omitted the reference page from the original paper and, instead, included a new list of "references" which she then went through and footnoted throughout the paper in place of the original footnotes. Her excuse when confronted with the plagiarism that was submitted after a second chance was given was, "Oh, I am so busy studying for the bar exam...."--

 

[Roadrunner]

Kids cheat for many reasons but I think one of the primary reason is because they see education as a hurdle to something else. So why wouldn’t they try to simplify things when they don’t believe what they are doing is useful and instead see it as as a waste of time? This is why I advocate for alternative paths instead of having students endure four years of college. You can be extremely educated and never go to college. Open a book. 
 

And yes to high school kids doing the same. My child says he is offered money by his classmates to complete their verb drills in foreign language because most can’t get a grade above 70% on it. While he reassures me he doesn’t help anybody, I just don’t know. I have lost my voice at home constantly fending one thing or another. Why are these kids taking foreign language? They have to. They wouldn’t be asking others to cheat for them if they had a slight interest in it. We really need to rethink high school in a better fashion.

 

And yes to those online homework platforms. It’s not just math. We had this issue with college foreign language class and we dropped it right away. I could just see how the semester was going to go if we stayed. Questions asking “what is the opposite of brave in French?” Well, mine picked one. He said timid. Apparently that’s not what the system wanted. We don’t know what the system wanted because it was not in that chapter. There were at least 2-3 questions like that on just one assignments. We quickly ran. 

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

I don’t know if cheating is overblown or increasing. I suspect it’s just alternate means of gaining unearned advantages (frats and sororities at USC in the 90s had HUGE libraries of graded exams that were not changed but recycled) but I do think the supposition that college students all know XYZ about how to obtain learning support is extremely flawed. We have college students represented on the boards who don’t even make their own DR appointments. This Ted talk outlines it well, as do the viewer comments that follow.

Https://youtube.be/j7w2Gv7ueOc 

Colleges have orientation which teaches kids about services and how to access them. Some have U101 which is a semester long freshman support course for learning all about navigating college. At some pt, there is no excuse for being enabled for being childized.

[Sneezyone]

28 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Colleges have orientation which teaches kids about services and how to access them. Some have U101 which is a semester long freshman support course for learning all about navigating college. At some pt, there is no excuse for being enabled for being childized.

Are you suggesting a 2 hr campus orientation for freshmen covering ALL campus services is the equivalent of years of actual experience interacting with adults as peers?

[8filltheheart]

2 hrs? Most are 2-3 days or even a week long.  And yes, going on a tour and being told here is the tutoring center, tutoring is free, all you need to do is make an appt should let them know there is free tutoring. Professors tell them so they are reminded. It shows up in Canvas. It is on some syllabi. Some depts send out emails. It isnt hidden information that has to be sought out. For students incapable of making that leap,  bridge programs are there to offer support, peer mentors, etc. The bigger issue is that the students have to be willing to use the services.

[Sneezyone]

15 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

2 hrs? Most are 2-3 days or even a week long.  And yes, going on a tour and being told here is the tutoring center, tutoring is free, all you need to do is make an appt should let them know there is free tutoring. Professors tell them so they are reminded. It shows up in Canvas. It is on some syllabi. Some depts send out emails. It isnt hidden information that has to be sought out. For students incapable of making that leap,  bridge programs are there to offer support, peer mentors, etc. The bigger issue is that the students have to be willing to use the services.

Right. So 2-4 hrs a day for up to a week is enough to equalize the playing field? Really? Are you smirking as you think that? Bridge programs are typically invite only and open to those admitted under ‘special’ circumstances. They don’t teach kids who managed  ‘well enough’ without support to that point.

There are so many unspoken norms that people who’ve successfully navigated these waters take for granted. I’m not defensive about the fact that I know things and can share guidance with my kids that will give them a leg up. Why are you? Facts are facts.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Roadrunner]

It’s not enough to provide food. We must chop and chew it for them as well. 
 

Equalize what playing field? How to find tutoring help? Should kids now be assigned a person to individual walk them to a tutoring center? Is there no end to this nonsense? What is this, kindergarten? These kids have graduated high school. They should be capable of locating or asking help to locate services. Have some faith in them. 
 

Please please don’t mention the word privilege. It’s insulting. 

[Sneezyone]

It is not lost on me that many of those arguing there is nothing to be done and students today suck and need spoon feeding were also ADAMANTLY opposed to granting expanded access to PS courses and course-taking pathways in ELEMENTARY AND MIDDLE SCHOOLS that help students develop better skills wrt faculty interaction and teaching wrt ethics. The kids aren’t the issue. The adults are.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Sneezyone

[8filltheheart]

What do you want?  When does the responsibility for self begin?  These are adults. College is not high school. 

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

What do you want?  When does the responsibility for self begin?  These are adults. College is not high school. 

I expect ppl who take the position that college is not HS support efforts to expose more students in elementary, middle and high schools to content and teachers that interact with college norms in mind. I expect people who want collegians to be more independent to appreciate the ways in which our own generation (GenX) received unearned benefits by virtue of their membership in exclusive organizations that were (hello Alabama) closed to other students. I expect people to be about the business of creatively solving problems and finding a way to say YES to something, anything, that makes a SYSTEMIC difference.

[8filltheheart]

9 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I expect ppl who take the position that college is not HS support efforts to expose more students in elementary, middle and high schools to content and teachers that interact with college norms in mind. I expect people who want collegians to be more independent to appreciate the ways in which our own generation (GenX) received unearned benefits by virtue of their membership in exclusive organizations that were (hello Alabama) closed to other students. I expect people to be about the business of creatively solving problems and finding a way to say YES to something, anything, that makes a SYSTEMIC difference.

No idea what you are talking about.  You spiral all over the place blaming everyone and everything. And students are victims. Got it.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, 8filltheheart said:

No idea what you are talking about.  You spiral all over the place blaming everyone and everything. And students are victims. Got it.

Ma’am. God bless you. 

[Clemsondana]

I don't understand a lot of what is being said any more.  I'm a big fan of early intervention for kids so that far fewer of them fall behind.  My volunteer gig for the past decade has been an hour or 2 every week helping elementary kids with homework or other tutoring issues (I'm looking to do more once my kids graduate).  I think that the biggest issue that many of them have is thinking that there is no reason to learn basic skills and not understanding that the math that they are being taught in 3rd grade is going to be important when they get older.  I was just discussing this with a friend who is an inner-city high school teacher - she has her kids do career exploration, and we were talking about it needing to be introduced earlier.

But, I'm not sure how any of that relates to kids figuring out how to manage a college environment.  I know that my kids will have a tremendous advantage over anything that I had.  My parents were great, involved, and supportive...but neither has a 4-year degree.  They helped financially, but when they dropped me off at college I knew that, other than a weekly phone call for moral support or to request $ in the event of an emergency, I was on my own to figure things out.  I try to help any kids who cross my path so that they go into it more knowledgeable than I was.  I introduce different study methods when I teach.  I have my upperclassmen look up potential college programs.  We talk about what AP and DE might be most helpful for students that are looking in that direction.  

But, with that being said, there are also students who just won't do work or get help.  I see them in my high school classes, and I saw them in my college classes.  Some turn in nothing and fail, and some cheat.  There are things that adults can do to help, but ultimately it's up to the student to do the work of learning.  I've known former students to say 'I don't know what I was thinking/why I blew this out of proportion/why I didn't work, but I don't know what anybody could have done to make me do something different'.  For that matter, one of my own kids is sometimes challenging and I've had to realize that, while I can offer all sorts of options and opportunities, I can't make them learn if they are determined not to.  These kids who are struggling aren't bad people, but they are somehow mismatched - there is a disconnect between their expectations, the instructor's expectations, their life stage (whether other commitments, maturity, etc), their focus, their aptitude for the subject or time available to work on it, etc.  Most faculty care, but there are also limits to what they are able to do.  They have a lot of students.  They may have parent-skills or mentor-skills in addition to their instructor-skills, or they may not.  And, students may reject help.  I've had students tell their parents that they tell me that they don't need help because they don't want me to know that they don't understand (as if I haven't already figured that out).  But, there isn't anything that I can do to help a student who won't let me work with them.  

[Sneezyone]

19 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

I don't understand a lot of what is being said any more.  I'm a big fan of early intervention for kids so that far fewer of them fall behind.  My volunteer gig for the past decade has been an hour or 2 every week helping elementary kids with homework or other tutoring issues (I'm looking to do more once my kids graduate).  I think that the biggest issue that many of them have is thinking that there is no reason to learn basic skills and not understanding that the math that they are being taught in 3rd grade is going to be important when they get older.  I was just discussing this with a friend who is an inner-city high school teacher - she has her kids do career exploration, and we were talking about it needing to be introduced earlier.

But, I'm not sure how any of that relates to kids figuring out how to manage a college environment.  I know that my kids will have a tremendous advantage over anything that I had.  My parents were great, involved, and supportive...but neither has a 4-year degree.  They helped financially, but when they dropped me off at college I knew that, other than a weekly phone call for moral support or to request $ in the event of an emergency, I was on my own to figure things out.  I try to help any kids who cross my path so that they go into it more knowledgeable than I was.  I introduce different study methods when I teach.  I have my upperclassmen look up potential college programs.  We talk about what AP and DE might be most helpful for students that are looking in that direction.  

But, with that being said, there are also students who just won't do work or get help.  I see them in my high school classes, and I saw them in my college classes.  Some turn in nothing and fail, and some cheat.  There are things that adults can do to help, but ultimately it's up to the student to do the work of learning.  I've known former students to say 'I don't know what I was thinking/why I blew this out of proportion/why I didn't work, but I don't know what anybody could have done to make me do something different'.  For that matter, one of my own kids is sometimes challenging and I've had to realize that, while I can offer all sorts of options and opportunities, I can't make them learn if they are determined not to.  These kids who are struggling aren't bad people, but they are somehow mismatched - there is a disconnect between their expectations, the instructor's expectations, their life stage (whether other commitments, maturity, etc), their focus, their aptitude for the subject or time available to work on it, etc.  Most faculty care, but there are also limits to what they are able to do.  They have a lot of students.  They may have parent-skills or mentor-skills in addition to their instructor-skills, or they may not.  And, students may reject help.  I've had students tell their parents that they tell me that they don't need help because they don't want me to know that they don't understand (as if I haven't already figured that out).  But, there isn't anything that I can do to help a student who won't let me work with them.  

I don’t disagree with ANY of what you said but we’re not all working with this reality in mind. There’s a significant subset of people who a) do not support early intervention in any meaningful/systemic way and b) think students as you’d describe yourself and I/my friends were as undeserving  slackers/defective for not knowing what they don’t know. It’s tiresome. Academic dishonesty, like most forms of ethical violations, aren’t based on CC or 4-year (elitist much ?), or family make up, or academic platform. It’s not kids from podunk sending exams to India for grading. It’s people who either haven’t been challenged wrt that as a normative behavior and/or have the financial means to overcome any ethical lapses.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Clarita]

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I do think the supposition that college students all know XYZ about how to obtain learning support is extremely flawed. We have college students represented on the boards who don’t even make their own DR appointments.

I arrived in college not knowing all the things. I had a bank teller walk me through how to write a check at 20, my mom made my Dr. appointments even after I went to college. Where to get help in college is repeated every class. You get a sheet of paper and a website where the professor tells you when office hours are, TA office hours are, where to get FREE tutoring, where the FREE computer lab is, etc. It's just that unlike K-12 they no longer force you to do any of it. If you don't take advantage and you don't do well you fail out. Or are you saying we should start these expectations in high school instead of college?

At some point people need to learn to figure out how to do life. If not in college (for the college student) then when? 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I arrived in college not knowing all the things. I had a bank teller walk me through how to write a check at 20, my mom made my Dr. appointments even after I went to college. Where to get help in college is repeated every class. You get a sheet of paper and a website where the professor tells you when office hours are, TA office hours are, where to get FREE tutoring, where the FREE computer lab is, etc. It's just that unlike K-12 they no longer force you to do any of it. If you don't take advantage and you don't do well you fail out. Or are you saying we should start these expectations in high school instead of college?

At some point people need to learn to figure out how to do life. If not in college (for the college student) then when? 

 

 

Did you watch the video I posted? Your assumption that people know what office hours are for is flawed. I never had a prof mention student services. Maybe they do that now. It was never mentioned in any class I took thru 2007.

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Academic dishonesty, like most forms of ethical violations aren’t based on CC or 4-year (elitist much ?), or family make up, or academic platform. It’s not kids from podunk sending exams to India for grading.

Can you expand on this? Are you saying it is rich kids doing the most cheating because they are entitled?

[lewelma]

5 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Kids cheat for many reasons but I think one of the primary reason is because they see education as a hurdle to something else. So why wouldn’t they try to simplify things when they don’t believe what they are doing is useful and instead see it as as a waste of time?

I think this is really true. My understanding is that the liberal arts university education in the USA was derived from the British upper class education of the 1800s. And that it has not changed that much. My dad (a university professor) firmly believes that universities are there to help make you a deep thinker and that they should NOT be professional degrees that are targeted to jobs. But I'm starting to wonder if his view of them is old fashioned, and not one that the younger generation shares. They really just want to punch their ticket to get a job, and if the ticket is a university education with a bunch of stuff not directly related to their future job, then they will just get through it the fastest way possible, which is often by cheating. 

[Sneezyone]

 

10 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Can you expand on this? Are you saying it is rich kids doing the most cheating because they are entitled?

I’m saying, because I actually want to understand what ppl are seeing and why, that the evidence suggests cheating happens for a multitude of reasons but at the high and low ends especially, for very different reasons. It’s also not new. The idea that ill-prepared kids from urban or rural areas or with disabilities (which is the NOT AT ALL subtle implication being leveled in this tread) have the funds and social capital to pay overseas wringers to take online tests is bonkers. Kids with money and awesome grades do it to get ahead/stay ahead. Kids with low grades/ability figure WTH and their attempts are usually obvious and clumsy.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Primetime/story?id=132376&page=1

https://www.edutopia.iorg/article/why-students-cheat-and-what-do-about-it

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Sneezyone

[lewelma]

9 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

which is the NOT AT ALL subtle implication being leveled in this thread

As you know I think, my younger boy has a learning disability and gets special assessment conditions. Personally, I am grateful that the world has changed enough that he can get these conditions so he can go to college. Are they perfect?  Well, no. But I think that they are difficult to implement fairly, and I think they are very time consuming for professors to accommodate. I am dead set against time-pressured tests as I have already argued, but I am more than pleased that my ds goes to university in this era and not 50 years ago. 

Personally, I am more of the belief that the entire system has to change, but that is a generational goal, and not an in the trenches solution. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by lewelma

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, lewelma said:

As you know I think, my younger boy has a learning disability and gets special assessment conditions. Personally, I am grateful that the world has changed enough that he can get these conditions so he can go to college. Are they perfect?  Well, no. But I think that they are difficult to implement fairly, and I think they are very time consuming for professors to accommodate. I am dead set against time-pressured tests as I have already argued, but I am more than pleased that my ds goes to university in this era and not 50 years ago. 

Personally, I am more of the belief that the entire system has to change, but that is a generational goal, and not an in the trenches solution. 

ITA. I feel like many of these challenges are the result of a failure of imagination and will on the part of adults, not unlike our gun issues. When you grow up with and benefit from, know and are invested in, systems that exclude it’s hard to consider all that reformation could/should be/demand. The status quo is ever so much easier, especially when you’re thriving within its confines. If cheating is the issue, address that MORAL and ETHICAL issue. Oh, wait, I forgot that social and emotional learning is now considered, alongside CRT, a verboten topic in k-12.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Sneezyone

[lewelma]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

ITA. I feel like many of these challenges are the result of a failure of imagination and will on the pry of adults, not unlike our gun issues. When you grow up with and benefit from, know and are invested in systems that exclude, it’s hard to consider all that reformation could/should be/demand. The status quo is ever so much easier, especially when you’re thriving within its confines. If cheating is the issue, address that MORAL and ETHICAL issue. Oh, wait, I forgot that social and emotional learning is now considered, alongside CRT, a verboten topic in k-12.

I'm currently doing an masters in Environmental Management and we are spending a lot of time on path dependency. Clearly the entire university system we are discussing is path dependent. We do what we do because we have always done it that way. And path dependent systems are notoriously difficult to change because of all the interconnecting parts. We keep moving forward even if the current situation is a maladaptive solution to a problem that has been misframed. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by lewelma

[Sneezyone]

Just now, lewelma said:

I'm currently doing an masters in Environmental Management and we are spending a lot of time on path dependency. Clearly the entire university system we are discussing is path dependent. We do what we do because we have always done it that way. And path dependent systems are notoriously difficult to change because of all the interconnecting parts even if the current situation is a maladaptive solution to a problem that has been misframed. 

Indeed!

[maize]

There is a sense of entitlement-to-help-and-personal-accommodation that parents in the higher tiers of society (more likely college educated themselves) are far more likely to teach their children--and then have reinforced by teachers, administrators, and other adults in the child's life. Children from working-class or blue collar homes are far less likely to get messages growing up that adults in positions of responsibility are on their side and are interested in helping them.

This makes it far less natural for, say, first generation college students to utilize office hours when they don't understand something, or to seek out professors for mentorship.

There is a whole challenge of navigating an unfamiliar world and unfamiliar expectation--as well as unfamiliar opportunities that they don't know how to take advantage of. 

I do think there are significant barriers for many students that are not being adequately addressed.

[Clarita]

I'll bow out of this conversation. All my finals were 3 hours long, midterms depended on room availability. I at least got a page of notes for all my major classes. Actually, a significant portion were open book, and open notes. I've even had take home exams, working collaboratively was not allowed for the exam, typical time frame would actually be about a week. 

Grades were usually split between a project (solo, partner or group) (~40%), 1-2 midterms (~15-25%) and a final (~30%). There may be ~5-10% for homework. Numbers don't add up to 100% because these are roughly the average for the classes so the break down is a bit different between classes.

Still a lot of cheating happened. (Not counting viewing of past exams because that was not considered cheating in most of my classes, some professors would give out their past exams as study material.)  Still a lot of students were "weeded out". 

The cheaters that I knew mostly cheated because this wasn't what they were passionate about or what they really wanted. It was something their parents wanted them to do, or something that they felt would make them money to pursue things they really wanted. 

[lewelma]

8 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I'll bow out of this conversation. 

Thanks very much for your perspective. You've given me a lot to think about. 

[lewelma]

9 minutes ago, Clarita said:

The cheaters that I knew mostly cheated because this wasn't what they were passionate about or what they really wanted. It was something their parents wanted them to do, or something that they felt would make them money to pursue things they really wanted. 

Interesting point about the parents. 

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

I think this is really true. My understanding is that the liberal arts university education in the USA was derived from the British upper class education of the 1800s. And that it has not changed that much. My dad (a university professor) firmly believes that universities are there to help make you a deep thinker and that they should NOT be professional degrees that are targeted to jobs. But I'm starting to wonder if his view of them is old fashioned, and not one that the younger generation shares. They really just want to punch their ticket to get a job, and if the ticket is a university education with a bunch of stuff not directly related to their future job, then they will just get through it the fastest way possible, which is often by cheating. 

I think like your dad. I think without literature, liberal arts core, there is no education. The rest is just training. I think you can be extremely educated without ever going to college and extremely well trained but uneducated with a college degree. 
Liberal arts core is what we are looking for my DS as well. My other kid could be a good candidate for “training to job” since I am not sure he would want the type of deeper education.  And it has nothing to do with intelligence and all has to do with their interests.

Yes, I am desperately looking for programs with a core as strong as U Chicago since my kid would never be able to get in there. That’s what he also wants. 

[lewelma]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

I think like your dad. I think without literature, liberal arts core, there is no education. The rest is just training. I think you can be extremely educated without ever going to college and extremely well trained but uneducated with a college degree. 
Liberal arts core is what we are looking for my DS as well. My other kid could be a good candidate for “training to job” since I am not sure he would want the type of deeper education.  And it has nothing to do with intelligence and all has to do with their interests.

Yes, I am desperately looking for programs with a core as strong as U Chicago since my kid would never be able to get in there. That’s what he also wants. 

I agree, but I do wonder if it is the realm of the rich, to have this liberal arts core with literature and beauty and thinking. 

[Roadrunner]

4 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I agree, but I do wonder if it is the realm of the rich, to have this liberal arts core with literature and beauty and thinking. 

Why should it be? I grew up very poor. Books saved me. 
I think it’s interest driven . Some kids (rich or poor) will have a heart in it and others won’t. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Roadrunner

[Brittany1116]

4 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Why should it be? I grew up very poor. Books saved me. 
I think it’s interest driven . Some kids (rich or poor) will have a heart in it and others won’t. 

I don't think it should be so much as it sometimes just is. We were poor. I was the oldest of many and first gen college student. I was annoyed at gen ed requirements that didn't meet my needs for training for a certain path. Sure, I liked to read and learn about plenty of things. Just not the ones that someone else decided made me well-rounded. To me, college was a means to an end, which was gainful employment in a chosen career field. I didn't have the luxury of time to devote to liberal arts if I wanted to make any money to pay my bills. I didn't want to be a starving artist or philosopher. 

I was an avid reader as a child and I still am. I went to a performing arts magnet school, learned quite a bit about music and the arts, danced for years. But something in my upbringing and my personality put much of the humanities in a box outside of normal, everyday life. 

I have a sister who has a degree in fine arts. Lots of student debt. Very creative and now has a business of her own that is thriving. Her quip to me recently was was that her college experience was a waste because she already had skill and drive and anything she lacked, she could have found a course for online at a much lower cost. 

The rest of us all chose "safe" jobs.

[lewelma]

28 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Why should it be? I grew up very poor. Books saved me. 

Oh, I was just thinking that universities are very expensive and yet required for a good job. Maybe they would be cheaper and a more direct path to a job if they focused on job skills. Some people have said in this thread that kids cheat because they don't find value in what they are learning because it is not relevant. 

[Roadrunner]

 

21 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Oh, I was just thinking that universities are very expensive and yet required for a good job. Maybe they would be cheaper and a more direct path to a job if they focused on job skills. Some people have said in this thread that kids cheat because they don't find value in what they are learning because it is not relevant. 

This is the problem. Many, many jobs could be done with either short certification programs or on the job training. I think we are seeing some of that here with some tech companies no longer requiring degrees. I am really hoping to see more change in that direction.

[Clarita]

56 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I think like your dad. I think without literature, liberal arts core, there is no education. The rest is just training. I think you can be extremely educated without ever going to college and extremely well trained but uneducated with a college degree. 
Liberal arts core is what we are looking for my DS as well. My other kid could be a good candidate for “training to job” since I am not sure he would want the type of deeper education.  And it has nothing to do with intelligence and all has to do with their interests.

I wonder if part of it is people don't really know where to stick or provide training for the majors who need to obtain a lot of knowledge/theory as part of their "training to job". My dad got into electrical engineering as an apprentice, and took night school to obtain his bachelors. I don't think that's a true viable option, because I know people (2) who took that route and that is a really really difficult route. That's a lot of knowledge you are trying to obtain while also holding down a full time job.

I guess it's a question of what should be done if a short certification program isn't going to cut it, but you also don't need the whole "liberal arts core". 

Of course ignoring the fact that some colleges/universities get a lot of funding from their "professional training" majors. 

[Bootsie]

4 hours ago, lewelma said:

Oh, I was just thinking that universities are very expensive and yet required for a good job. Maybe they would be cheaper and a more direct path to a job if they focused on job skills. Some people have said in this thread that kids cheat because they don't find value in what they are learning because it is not relevant. 

So, is part of the issue we are raising a generation of kids who, if they don't find value in something, dishonesty, cheating, and stealing are OK?  So, I don't find value in going 20 miles per hour in a school zone when I personally don't see any children out--so it's OK to speed.  I don't see value in the services the federal government provides, so it is OK to cheat on my taxes?  I don't see value in wearing a mask during a pandemic, so its OK not to wear one?  I don't see value in copyright laws, so it is OK to plagiarize?  I don't see value in my employer making more money--that isn't relevant to me--so it is OK for me to steal out of the petty cash fund?  

[Roadrunner]

4 hours ago, Clarita said:

I wonder if part of it is people don't really know where to stick or provide training for the majors who need to obtain a lot of knowledge/theory as part of their "training to job". My dad got into electrical engineering as an apprentice, and took night school to obtain his bachelors. I don't think that's a true viable option, because I know people (2) who took that route and that is a really really difficult route. That's a lot of knowledge you are trying to obtain while also holding down a full time job.

I guess it's a question of what should be done if a short certification program isn't going to cut it, but you also don't need the whole "liberal arts core". 

Of course ignoring the fact that some colleges/universities get a lot of funding from their "professional training" majors. 

Engineering is not what I had in mind. That’s one of the toughest majors as I understand. Most structured fairly tightly. 
A ton of office jobs don’t really need a BA. 
We have a relative who works with a tech company with one software with a repetitive job who also could have easily learned what he does on the job. 
Every job announcement here for even secretarial work is asking for a college degree. 
 

[Bootsie]

10 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Engineering is not what I had in mind. That’s one of the toughest majors as I understand. Most structured fairly tightly. 
A ton of office jobs don’t really need a BA. 
We have a relative who works with a tech company with one software with a repetitive job who also could have easily learned what he does on the job. 
Every job announcement here for even secretarial work is asking for a college degree. 
 

I agree that many jobs that list a college degree is a requirement do not have job duties for which a college degree is necessary.  In fact, I would argue, that if I were hiring for many of those positions, I would prefer a well-educated, 18-year old high school graduate, who is eager to work than a 24-year old who has spent the last six years in and out of college, dropping classes, partying, changing majors, trying to "find themselves" and coming out with a piece of paper saying they are a college graduate.  I have wondered if more employers began doing this so that they can classify this positions as "exempt" rather than "non-exempt" and if it is a side-effect of some labor market regulation.  

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

So, is part of the issue we are raising a generation of kids who, if they don't find value in something, dishonesty, cheating, and stealing are OK?  So, I don't find value in going 20 miles per hour in a school zone when I personally don't see any children out--so it's OK to speed.  I don't see value in the services the federal government provides, so it is OK to cheat on my taxes?  I don't see value in wearing a mask during a pandemic, so its OK not to wear one?  I don't see value in copyright laws, so it is OK to plagiarize?  I don't see value in my employer making more money--that isn't relevant to me--so it is OK for me to steal out of the petty cash fund?  

I hope not. 

I do think the current model if k-12 isn’t producing the desired outcome. It’s not jazzing kids up to learn. I would want to reinvent the k-12 system and maybe we could by default fix what follows. We start out with amazing little kindergarteners and by middle school manage to turn learning into a chore. And then it just gets worse for many. 

 

4 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I agree that many jobs that list a college degree is a requirement do not have job duties for which a college degree is necessary.  In fact, I would argue, that if I were hiring for many of those positions, I would prefer a well-educated, 18-year old high school graduate, who is eager to work than a 24-year old who has spent the last six years in and out of college, dropping classes, partying, changing majors, trying to "find themselves" and coming out with a piece of paper saying they are a college graduate.  I have wondered if more employers began doing this so that they can classify this positions as "exempt" rather than "non-exempt" and if it is a side-effect of some labor market regulation.  

This very well might be the case. 
 

I see you can’t sleep either. It’s 3 AM here. 🙂 

[Bootsie]

35 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I hope not. 

I do think the current model if k-12 isn’t producing the desired outcome. It’s not jazzing kids up to learn. I would want to reinvent the k-12 system and maybe we could by default fix what follows. We start out with amazing little kindergarteners and by middle school manage to turn learning into a chore. And then it just gets worse for many. 

 

This very well might be the case. 
 

I see you can’t sleep either. It’s 3 AM here. 🙂 

But, it's 5 o'clock somewhere 🙂   I am in Europe right now--so it is midday

[Bootsie]

38 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I do think the current model if k-12 isn’t producing the desired outcome. It’s not jazzing kids up to learn. I would want to reinvent the k-12 system and maybe we could by default fix what follows. We start out with amazing little kindergarteners and by middle school manage to turn learning into a chore. And then it just gets worse for many. 

I agree.  I think the focus on standardized testing is a major factor in this.  The focus becomes on getting ready to earn a certain score on an exam rather than learning.  And, it isn't just students cheating in this system.  There have been a number of instances in which teachers have cheated in order to make sure their students do well on standardized tests and parents have cheated to get their kids SAT scores to get them into college.  There is a focus on--how do I get the score I need--not a focus on how do I learn the material being tested.  Even short of cheating, the focus is on how to make sure students pick the right answer.  I had a friend teaching high school math to students at a school which had a high rate of failures on end-of-the-year exams.  One problem was that most of the students could not read--so they could not do the word problems.  She had to attend a two-day seminar on strategies to help these students pick the right answer without reading the math problem!  

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 6/1/2022 at 4:31 PM, regentrude said:

One more thought (and then I have to run):

structuring courses with lots of process-assignments (homework, quizzes, discussion boards etc) disadvantages students with executive functioning issues who would have no problem demonstrating their mastery on an exam, but who cannot juggle that many moving pieces and will overlook assignments, forget to submit, miss deadlines, etc. I have encountered numerous such students.
Students who have mastered the content should receive a high grade and should not be penalized for their inability to keep up with dozens of little things.

This issue is compounded when the course has a disorganized online portal for syllabus and assignments. 

In an ideal world, the syllabus and online list of assignments would match. Often they don't. Assignments might be listed in a portal like Canvas under several different tabs. They might not all be listed at the beginning of the course (or beginning of the week for a course that unveils tasks at the beginning of each week).

[Serenade]

6 minutes ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

This issue is compounded when the course has a disorganized online portal for syllabus and assignments. 

In an ideal world, the syllabus and online list of assignments would match. Often they don't. Assignments might be listed in a portal like Canvas under several different tabs. They might not all be listed at the beginning of the course (or beginning of the week for a course that unveils tasks at the beginning of each week).

This is one of the biggest challenges my ADHD student faced at the university.  It was very frustrating to him.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Serenade